Is sinning necessary

[Gary K]

Hi Gary, I hope your week was a good one.

I read your title, "Is sinning necessary" and then read what you wrote. I must admit, I'm confused when comparing your title with what you write. When I read the title "necessary", I think of something being required. For example, Is sin necessary (required) so that good may abound. But of course this is false and we can find scripture to tell us such. This is just to say, I find your title confusing me as to what you are asking. You don't seem to mean 'required' in the sense I wrote above, occording to my evaluation of your responses.

Then after reading your title, I read the first thing you write and it is dealing with "perfection". This immediately makes one think, at least me and what appears to be most of your resondents, that what you mean is people can be "perfect" as Jesus Christ is perfect. But your responses indicate that this is not at all what you mean. So what do you mean to say?

Who or what concept are you specifically arguing against?

I hope you had a good week too.

Like the rest who have disagreed with me you mistake what I'm asserting.

We can never be like Jesus because we have all sinned. That doesn't mean, according to scripture, that we must continue sinning. Both OT and NT scriptures tell us differently. Here is an OT passage that illustrates this concept.

Ezekiel 36: 25 ¶Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

So what does it mean to have all our filthiness and idols cleansed? Does that allow any idolatry to remain in us?

What does it mean to to have our stony hearts removed? Is a stone warm and pliable, capable of being reshaped? No. It is set in one, and only one. shape. It can only be reshaped by being broken or crushed: destroyed.

What does it mean to walk in God's statutes and judgments and keep and do them? Does that mean to fail to obey them? No. So what is the only conclusion we can come to if we believe scripture? That God can so change us that we are capable of keeping His law from that point forward. Does that do away with our need of Justification> No. We still need justification to cover all our past sins.

Revelation 12: 17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

In the Greek the word translated as keep means the following.

[*StrongsGreek*]
05083
THRE/W τηρέω tēréō tay-reh'-o from τερός terós, (a watch; perhaps akin to 2334);
to guard (from loss or injury, properly, by keeping the eye upon; and thus differing from 5442, which is properly to prevent escaping; and from 2892, which implies a fortress or full military lines of apparatus), i.e. to note (a prophecy; figuratively, to fulfil a command); by implication, to detain (in custody; figuratively, to maintain); by extension, to withhold (for personal ends; figuratively, to keep unmarried); by extension, to withhold (for personal ends; figuratively, to keep unmarried):--hold fast, keep(- er), (pre-, re-)serve, watch.

So we are to keep our eyes upon God's law.

The devil is so angry with the people who keep commandments that he declares war on them. That sounds to me like a really good thing as I don't like making the devil happy. Do you?

As to the testimony of Jesus Paul tells us what it is.

1Corinthians 1: 4 I thank my God always on your behalf, for the grace of God which is given you by Jesus Christ;
5 That in every thing ye are enriched by him, in all utterance, and in all knowledge;
6 Even as the testimony of Christ was confirmed in you:
7 So that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ:
8 Who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.

The word translated as testimony is as follows.

[*StrongsGreek*]
03142
μαρτύριον martýrion, mar-too'-ree-on
neuter of a presumed derivative of 3144;
something evidential, i.e. (genitive case) evidence given or (specially), the Decalogue (in the sacred Tabernacle):--to be testified, testimony, witness.

So what was the testimony of Jesus that was confirmed in the Corinthian Church? The law of God.

 

[Paleouss]

So you are arguing against those people that say "one cannot stop sinning after having the power of the Spirit"? Or are you saying that any man, saved or unsaved, has the power of not sinning?

 

[Gary K]

So you are arguing against those people that say "one cannot stop sinning after having the power of the Spirit"? Or are you saying that any man, saved or unsaved, has the power of not sinning?

How do you come to that conclusion? Nothing I have said leads to that conclusion as I have based everything I've said on scripture.

1John 2: 1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

 

[Paleouss]

I hope you would forgive me, Gary. I am a little slow. You might need patience if you desire for me to understand. I'm not the sharpest tool in God's toolbox.

How do you come to that conclusion? Nothing I have said leads to that conclusion as I have based everything I've said on scripture.

You asked how I came to the conclusion I did, within my post. However, I presented two conclusion for you. Hoping you might pick one that you are saying. So I'm still confused as to which conclusion you are referring too when you ask how I could come to that conclusion.

It might be easier, before providing all the verses and Strongs #s, to just plainly say what you are trying to say. In one sentence. Possibly, I won't be as confused that way. Then, after I understand what you are trying to teach me and possibly don't agree (don't know if I will agree or not), you can then provide verses to support your claim.


Peace be with you

 

[Gary K]

I hope you would forgive me, Gary. I am a little slow. You might need patience if you desire for me to understand. I'm not the sharpest tool in God's toolbox.


You asked how I came to the conclusion I did, within my post. However, I presented two conclusion for you. Hoping you might pick one that you are saying. So I'm still confused as to which conclusion you are referring too when you ask how I could come to that conclusion.

It might be easier, before providing all the verses and Strongs #s, to just plainly say what you are trying to say. In one sentence. Possibly, I won't be as confused that way. Then, after I understand what you are trying to teach me and possibly don't agree (don't know if I will agree or not), you can then provide verses to support your claim.


Peace be with you

This entire thread is dedicated to what I'm presenting. So read the entire thread and then I'll answer your questions.

 

[Gary K]

Here is more from Paul on sinning being unnecessary,

Galatians 6: 1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:

Has your life been renewed? Are you walking in newness of life? If we have been buried in baptism as was Jesus we will be raised in newness of life. A new life. Is that your goal and greatest desire? Paul tells us that is what will happen to us if we will only believe.

Hebrews 11: 5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.
6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

 

[Gary K]

I have a text or two and another question for you.

Revelation 14: 12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

Do you have the faith of Jesus? He prayed just before He raised Lazarus from the grave.

John 14: 40 Jesus saith unto her, Said I not unto thee, that, if thou wouldest believe, thou shouldest see the glory of God?
41 Then they took away the stone from the place where the dead was laid. And Jesus lifted up his eyes, and said, Father, I thank thee that thou hast heard me.
42 And I knew that thou hearest me always: but because of the people which stand by I said it, that they may believe that thou hast sent me.
43 And when he thus had spoken, he cried with a loud voice, Lazarus, come forth.
44 And he that was dead came forth, bound hand and foot with graveclothes: and his face was bound about with a napkin. Jesus saith unto them, Loose him, and let him go.

Do you have the faith of Jesus? Not faith in Jesus, but the same faith Jesus had. It is what made Him able to keep the commandments, raise the dead, heal the sick, and cast out demons. I know I don't have that kind of faith yet but one day I will as God is causing my faith to grow on a daily basis. How about you? Is your faith growing daily? Do you know Jesus as your friend? That's a huge step up on the way to having your faith grow daily.

Jesus' disciples as Jesus to increase their faith. His response?

Luke 17: 5 And the apostles said unto the Lord, Increase our faith.
6 And the Lord said, If ye had faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye might say unto this sycamine tree, Be thou plucked up by the root, and be thou planted in the sea; and it should obey you.
7 But which of you, having a servant plowing or feeding cattle, will say unto him by and by, when he is come from the field, Go and sit down to meat?
8 And will not rather say unto him, Make ready wherewith I may sup, and gird thyself, and serve me, till I have eaten and drunken; and afterward thou shalt eat and drink?
9 Doth he thank that servant because he did the things that were commanded him? I trow not.
10 So likewise ye, when ye shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do.

This the way I have come to see things in the last year and a half or so. We are indeed unprofitable servants for there is nothing we can do on our own for God.

 

[Gary K]

Here is more on this subject.

Romans 12: 1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.
2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

God transforms our minds. Have you allowed God to renew your mind? Has He changed your thought patterns? Only you and God know.

 

[guevaraj]

Let's look at the books John wrote for our next lesson in righteousness by faith.

Brother, happy Sabbath, starting this Friday, January 12, 2024, at 9:54 AM EST! "Righteousness by faith/belief (pistis)" is the correction of a bad translation of Paul's revelation of an ambiguous word in the Greek New Testament that can mean "belief" and must not always be translated as "faith". Acts of "righteousness" are a necessary part of having faith. Faith is acting according to one's belief! Having obedient trust in the one you have believed, as Abraham was obedient in bringing his son to the altar. You do not have faith without first gaining "righteousness" by God counting your having believed as an act of "righteousness" to complete your faith before doing any regular work at the temple.

And Abram believed (aman) the LORD, and the LORD counted it to him as righteousness (noun). (Genesis 15:6 NLT fixed)​

As with all good definitions, the word defined is not found in the definition above. The above is expressed in the following equation.

FAITH = BELIEVED + RIGHTEOUSNESS (work or a gift when having believed completes your faith before doing any regular work like animal sacrifices at the temple)​

The gift of "righteousness" for having believed before regular work is only had at the beginning of our faith, as David got it after his new faith of having believed God's message that he was worthy of death for his sin of adultery with Bathsheba. Any further future forgiveness David needs is gained by doing the regular works of "righteousness" at the temple. The Greek New Testament has been encrypted with an ambiguous Greek word "pistis" for the old truth of "faith" not being "belief" alone, clarifying further the message of the following passage.

You say you have faith (pistis), for you believe that there is one God. Good for you! Even the demons believe this, and they tremble in terror. How foolish! Can’t you see that faith (pistis) without good deeds is inactive? Don’t you remember that our ancestor Abraham was shown to be right with God by his actions when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? You see, his belief (pistis) and his actions worked together. His actions made his faith (pistis) complete. And so it happened just as the Scriptures say: “Abraham believed (pisteuó) God, and God credited to him as righteousness (work).” He was even called the friend of God. So you see, we are shown to be right with God by what we do (faith), not by belief (pistis) alone. (James 2:19-24 NLT fixed and overlaid with commentary)​

United in the hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

 

[Gary K]

Brother, happy Sabbath, starting this Friday, January 12, 2024, at 9:54 AM EST! "Righteousness by faith/belief (pistis)" is the correction of a bad translation of Paul's revelation of an ambiguous word in the Greek New Testament that can mean "belief" and must not always be translated as "faith". Acts of "righteousness" are a necessary part of having faith. Faith is acting according to one's belief! Having obedient trust in the one you have believed, as Abraham was obedient in bringing his son to the altar. You do not have faith without first gaining "righteousness" by God counting your having believed as an act of "righteousness" to complete your faith before doing any regular work at the temple.

And Abram believed (aman) the LORD, and the LORD counted it to him as righteousness (noun). (Genesis 15:6 NLT fixed)​

As with all good definitions, the word defined is not found in the definition above. The above is expressed in the following equation.

FAITH = BELIEVED + RIGHTEOUSNESS (work or a gift when having believed completes your faith before doing any regular work like animal sacrifices at the temple)​

The gift of "righteousness" for having believed before regular work is only had at the beginning of our faith, as David got it after his new faith of having believed God's message that he was worthy of death for his sin of adultery with Bathsheba. Any further future forgiveness David needs is gained by doing the regular works of "righteousness" at the temple. The Greek New Testament has been encrypted with an ambiguous Greek word "pistis" for the old truth of "faith" not being "belief" alone, clarifying further the message of the following passage.

You say you have faith (pistis), for you believe that there is one God. Good for you! Even the demons believe this, and they tremble in terror. How foolish! Can’t you see that faith (pistis) without good deeds is inactive? Don’t you remember that our ancestor Abraham was shown to be right with God by his actions when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? You see, his belief (pistis) and his actions worked together. His actions made his faith (pistis) complete. And so it happened just as the Scriptures say: “Abraham believed (pisteuó) God, and God credited to him as righteousness (work).” He was even called the friend of God. So you see, we are shown to be right with God by what we do (faith), not by belief (pistis) alone. (James 2:19-24 NLT fixed and overlaid with commentary)​

United in the hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

So you say. To say I disagree is putting it mildly. As it seems you're looking for an argument you might as well look elsewhere as I will not respond to you again on this thread.

 

[guevaraj]

So you say. To say I disagree is putting it mildly. As it seems you're looking for an argument you might as well look elsewhere as I will not respond to you again on this thread.

Brother, we know this topic is very important because our prophetess encouraged its study! I'm confident I will defeat your "contradictory" understanding based on an encrypted translation of the Greek New Testament that Paul decodes by revealing an ambiguous word in the Greek New Testament. If you do not want it here, we can have it in the following thread: "Does Paul reveal that "faith" is ambiguous with "believed"?"

Look to God’s instructions and teachings! People who contradict his word are completely in the dark. (Isaiah 8:20 NLT)​

United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

 

[Gary K]

Brother, we know this topic is very important because our prophetess encouraged its study! I'm confident I will defeat your "contradictory" understanding based on an encrypted translation of the Greek New Testament that Paul decodes by revealing an ambiguous word in the Greek New Testament. If you do not want it here, we can have it in the following thread: "Does Paul reveal that "faith" is ambiguous with "believed"?"

Look to God’s instructions and teachings! People who contradict his word are completely in the dark. (Isaiah 8:20 NLT)​

United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

In other words you believe Ellen White is a false prophet. RxF was her favorite topic and Isaiah tells us this.

Isaiah 8: 20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

Bye.

 

[guevaraj]

was her favorite topic

Brother, I believe in her because her inspiration has the Sabbath right when everyone has it wrong. It is a wonderful topic when properly understood, where God counts our having "believed" as work to complete our faith without having done any regular work at the temple. This was the experience of David when he was forgiven for his new belief of being worthy of death for committing adultery with Bathsheba without having done the regular work at the temple for his forgiveness. What many think can only happen after Jesus happened to David before Jesus! I say again, what has been assumed as unique to the new covenant David experienced before the new covenant! Way before Jesus' death on the cross, David received an initial act of "righteousness" for having believed, free of the regular work of animal sacrifices at the temple for the forgiveness of his past sin of adultery! Something everyone thinks only happens after Jesus happened to David before Jesus! David's free "righteousness" experience of getting "righteousness" free of the regular work of animal sacrifices for the forgiveness of the past sin of adultery took place before Jesus.

David was furious. “As surely as the LORD lives,” he vowed, “any man who would do such a thing deserves to die! He must repay four lambs to the poor man for the one he stole and for having no pity.” Then Nathan said to David, “You are that man! . . . Then David confessed to Nathan, “I have sinned against the LORD.” Nathan replied, “Yes, but the LORD has forgiven you, and you won’t die for this sin. Nevertheless, because you have shown utter contempt for the word of the LORD by doing this, your child will die.” (2 Samuel 12:5-7a, 13-14 NLT)​

David gained initial forgiveness for his free of regular work "righteousness", having done no regular work at the temple when God counted his having "believed" he was worthy of death for adultery as equivalent to an act of "work" to complete his new faith of being worthy of death for breaking the Seventh Commandment of committing adultery with another man's wife. David gained forgiveness for his past sin of adultery without having done the regular work of animal sacrifices at the temple! What many think happens after Jesus, gaining free work credit of an act of "righteousness" without having done the regular work of animal sacrifices at the temple, happened to David before Jesus. David's experience of gaining an initial act of "righteousness" without having done the regular work of animal sacrifices for the forgiveness of his past sin of adultery was before Jesus!

When people work, their wages are not a gift, but something they have earned. But people are credited righteousness (work), not because of their work, but because of their faith/belief (pistis) in God who forgives sinners. David also spoke of this when he described the happiness of those who are credited righteousness (work) without working for it: “Oh, what joy for those whose disobedience is forgiven, whose sins are put out of sight. Yes, what joy for those whose record the LORD has cleared of sin.” Now, is this blessing only for the Jews, or is it also for uncircumcised Gentiles? Well, we have been saying that Abraham was credited righteousness (work) by God because of his faith/belief (pistis). But how did this happen? Was he credited righteousness (work) only after he was circumcised, or was it before he was circumcised? Clearly, God accepted Abraham before he was circumcised! (Romans 4:4-10 NLT fixed)​

United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

 

[Gary K]

Brother, I believe in her because her inspiration has the Sabbath right when everyone has it wrong. It is a wonderful topic when properly understood, where God counts our having "believed" as work to complete our faith without having done any regular work at the temple. This was the experience of David when he was forgiven for his new belief of being worthy of death for committing adultery with Bathsheba without having done the regular work at the temple for his forgiveness. What many think can only happen after Jesus happened to David before Jesus! I say again, what has been assumed as unique to the new covenant David experienced before the new covenant! Way before Jesus' death on the cross, David received an initial act of "righteousness" for having believed, free of the regular work of animal sacrifices at the temple for the forgiveness of his past sin of adultery! Something everyone thinks only happens after Jesus happened to David before Jesus! David's free "righteousness" experience of getting "righteousness" free of the regular work of animal sacrifices for the forgiveness of the past sin of adultery took place before Jesus.

David was furious. “As surely as the LORD lives,” he vowed, “any man who would do such a thing deserves to die! He must repay four lambs to the poor man for the one he stole and for having no pity.” Then Nathan said to David, “You are that man! . . . Then David confessed to Nathan, “I have sinned against the LORD.” Nathan replied, “Yes, but the LORD has forgiven you, and you won’t die for this sin. Nevertheless, because you have shown utter contempt for the word of the LORD by doing this, your child will die.” (2 Samuel 12:5-7a, 13-14 NLT)​

David gained initial forgiveness for his free of regular work "righteousness", having done no regular work at the temple when God counted his having "believed" he was worthy of death for adultery as equivalent to an act of "work" to complete his new faith of being worthy of death for breaking the Seventh Commandment of committing adultery with another man's wife. David gained forgiveness for his past sin of adultery without having done the regular work of animal sacrifices at the temple! What many think happens after Jesus, gaining free work credit of an act of "righteousness" without having done the regular work of animal sacrifices at the temple, happened to David before Jesus. David's experience of gaining an initial act of "righteousness" without having done the regular work of animal sacrifices for the forgiveness of his past sin of adultery was before Jesus!

When people work, their wages are not a gift, but something they have earned. But people are credited righteousness (work), not because of their work, but because of their faith/belief (pistis) in God who forgives sinners. David also spoke of this when he described the happiness of those who are credited righteousness (work) without working for it: “Oh, what joy for those whose disobedience is forgiven, whose sins are put out of sight. Yes, what joy for those whose record the LORD has cleared of sin.” Now, is this blessing only for the Jews, or is it also for uncircumcised Gentiles? Well, we have been saying that Abraham was credited righteousness (work) by God because of his faith/belief (pistis). But how did this happen? Was he credited righteousness (work) only after he was circumcised, or was it before he was circumcised? Clearly, God accepted Abraham before he was circumcised! (Romans 4:4-10 NLT fixed)​

United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

If they speak not according to the law and the prophets how much light is in them? NO light. No prophet has ever been partially inspired. It;s like a woman being pregnant. There is no being partially pregnant and there is no being partially inspired.

In principle you're like Adventist Heretic.

 

[HIM]

If they speak not according to the law and the prophets how much light is in them? NO light. No prophet has ever been partially inspired. It;s like a woman being pregnant. There is no being partially pregnant and there is no being partially inspired.

In principle you're like Adventist Heretic.

Happy sabbath Gary. There is a lot of making things up as they go here, Sad.

 

[Gary K]

Happy sabbath Gary. There is a lot of making things up as they go here, Sad.

Yes it is. Happy Sabbath to you to. Maybe I should say, joyful.

 

[guevaraj]

There is a lot of making things up as they go here, Sad.

Yes it is.

Brothers, I'm not the only one that understands the days of the week are from morning to morning! Judaism's Sabbath is another human tradition since Joshua, corrected for those who search the scriptures for the truth shared by the Holy Spirit in the guarantied word of God by the prophets, where those who died in the desert by "oath" were prevented from entering the Sabbath with Manna for 40 years by God having them keep the seventh day of the week near Jerusalem. The seventh day of the week near Jerusalem is half a day too late to enter the Sabbath. The Sabbath in Jerusalem is half a day before the seventh day of the week! Judaism assumes the Sabbath given by God in Jerusalem is the seventh day of the week, when it is earlier by half a day before the seventh day of the week. Here is a video where others have also discovered this truth about the seventh day of the week we call Saturday being from morning to morning and not as the Sabbath falls earlier in Jerusalem, from evening to evening.

United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

 

[HIM]

Brothers, I'm not the only one that understands the days of the week are from morning to morning! Judaism's Sabbath is another human tradition since Joshua, corrected for those who search the scriptures for the truth shared by the Holy Spirit in the guarantied word of God by the prophets, where those who died in the desert by "oath" were prevented from entering the Sabbath with Manna for 40 years by God having them keep the seventh day of the week near Jerusalem. The seventh day of the week near Jerusalem is half a day too late to enter the Sabbath. The Sabbath in Jerusalem is half a day before the seventh day of the week! Judaism assumes the Sabbath given by God in Jerusalem is the seventh day of the week, when it is earlier by half a day before the seventh day of the week. Here is a video where others have also discovered this truth about the seventh day of the week we call Saturday being from morning to morning and not as the Sabbath falls earlier in Jerusalem, from evening to evening.

United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

You can save your time. I stop reading your posts a long time ago if they are more than a couple sentences.

 

[guevaraj]

You can save your time. I stop reading your posts a long time ago if they are more than a couple sentences.

Brother, when you cannot give an answer to your hope that does not contradict the Scriptures, all you can do is avoid the challenge! You act as someone who waits for a smarter person who can defend tradition for you! Unless you are convinced that there is no defense for your tradition that does not contradict the Scriptures. Instead of correcting your point of view because the Scriptures oppose it, you choose your tradition as able to replace the Scriptures. That is the strategy of our mother apostate church, the Roman Catholic Church.

Now, who will want to harm you if you are eager to do good? But even if you suffer for doing what is right, God will reward you for it. So don’t worry or be afraid of their threats. Instead, you must worship Christ as Lord of your life. And if someone asks about your hope as a believer, always be ready to explain it. But do this in a gentle and respectful way. Keep your conscience clear. Then if people speak against you, they will be ashamed when they see what a good life you live because you belong to Christ. Remember, it is better to suffer for doing good, if that is what God wants, than to suffer for doing wrong! (1 Peter 3:13-17 NLT)​

United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

 

[HIM]

Brother, when you cannot give an answer to your hope that does not contradict the Scriptures, all you can do is avoid the challenge!

You must of forgotten, we been down this road at least twice and once in another area where you make things up. Take care