Why I Think Christmas is Not Biblical (Please read OP before posting).

[Bible Highlighter]

Other nations MAY have worshipped trees;

No. They did worship trees in the times of the Old Testament. If you were going to rebuke these people back in their times, what part of God’s Word would you use? Jeremiah 10, Deuteronomy 16:21-22, and the verses that mention groves. That’s what you would have used to rebuke them if you were an Israelite during Old Testament times.

that does not mean that God's people did, nor that God was happy for anyone to do so.

Scripture says the Israelites had groves, along with traditional idols, etcetera.

Trees are not idols in themselves.

This is true. But if one decorates them, then it becomes an idol.

Some people - usually from other nations - would cut trees down and make idols from the wood. THAT was what was wrong.

The first part of the instruction in Jeremiah is talking about the cutting down of trees and decorating them and putting clothes on them. Nothing is said of how they would carve these trees into looking like people or animals (Although I am sure they did that as well).

When you get to verse 14 in Jeremiah 10, it is not a continuation of the idol trees. It starts to talk about the graven molten image.

Jeremiah 10:14 says,
“Every man is brutish in his knowledge: every founder is confounded
by the graven image: for his molten image is falsehood, and there is no breath in them.”

Molten images would be like the golden calf that the Israelites worshiped.

For the third time of asking, was Solomon wrong when he had trees cut down, made items for the temple and covered them with gold?

Did God give Solomon the instructions to put gold over trees?

In God's instruction to kings in Deuteronomy 17:14-20, we learn that God specifically warns against multiplying horses, multiplying wives, and multiplying silver and gold.

1 Kings 4:26 says
"And Solomon had forty thousand stalls of horses for his chariots, and twelve thousand horsemen.

There obviously was a downward spiral of problems involving Solomon, which led him to eventually have tons of wives, concubines, and with him worshiping other false gods.

Was Noah sinning when he made the ark from wood? Wad Moses sinning when he made the tabernacle, ark of the Covenant and other items from wood?

Noah‘s Ark is a boat and not an a tree that is decorated with gold, silver, and clothing (Which looks like a Christmas tree).
The Ark of the Covenant was a design instruction from God. It was to hold the tables of the Ten Commandments, and other sacred things at that time period. The angels faced an empty mercy seat. But this in no way resembles a tree that is decorated with gold and clothing that God forbids in Jeremiah 10. In fact, why would God forbid such a thing? Because people worshiped trees back then as they did all throughout history.

A tree is an idol in no one's mind except yours.

Nope. Druids worship trees in history, and this practice goes back to Old Testament times of which we can read about in the verses that mention the word “grove” (trees) many times.

Which is why churches celebrate Epiphany on Jan 6th.

But it’s a lie. The Bible does not refer to the wisemen as being kings.
Neither does the Bible say there were three wisemen.
Neither does the Bible say that the wisemen visited Jesus as a baby.
The Bible says he was a child when the wisemen visited Jesus. He was no longer a baby.
Only the shepherds visited Jesus as a baby. So the pictures on Christmas Day promoting how the wisemen visited Jesus as a baby is a lie not found in Scripture. This is just one of many lies told on Christmas.
People are either biblically illiterate or they simply do not care what the Bible actually says.
They exchanged the truth of God for a lie if they are into such deceptions. This is just one of the many reasons why a person should stop celebrating Christmas. Christmas is a day of promoting things contrary to Scripture. If one values the truth of God’s Word over lies, then one will side with the Bible instead of favoring the lies.

"THEY say"? Who are "they"?

Whoever invented these false things of Christmas and those who continue to prorrogaste such lies.

I have never heard any preacher declare that Christ was definitely born on Dec 25th and it is false to believe otherwise.

Then you should stop celebrating Christmas because this IS promoted on this holiday. It’s why you celebrate Christmas on December 25th. It is to honor his birth, which is a day He was clearly not born on. It is the promotion of a lie.

That is the date that has been chosen to commemorate Christ's birth.

But the date that’s chosen is a lie.

I doubt very much that God will demand to know why his Son's birth was celebrated on the "wrong day".

So imagine if you called up your family and friends and told them happy birthday on a day they were not born.
Imagine if you celebrated their birthday on a day they were not born and tried to get them to participate?
They would think you were nuts; Especially if you insisted their birthday was on a date that was not when they were really born.
Now, imagine how God feels; Especially when He tells us to worship Him in spirit, and in truth. Your not worshiping Him in truth on some made up day of his birthday. That would be basing His incarnation on a lie. The Bible does not say anything in regards to telling us to celebrate birthdays. We are to celebrate the death of our Lord in the Lord’s supper.

In fact, the Bible says,

"A good name is better than precious ointment; and the day of death than the day of one's birth.”(Ecclesiastes 7:1).

He may want you know why people didn't celebrate it at all, but even that's not too bad. What IS wrong is criticising fellow Christians who do want to celebrate the birth of the Son of God, accusing them of twisting, or ignoring, Scripture.

The correction is done in love, and with the hope that Christians will wake up to see they have been following a holiday that promotes lies and things that go against what the Bible actually teaches.

Jesus said we can't give gifts to people to show we love them?? Where did he say that?

I can tell you did not read the OP, which is what I asked folks to do before they even posted in this thread. Just go back to the beginning of the thread and read my points and you will see the verse. The fact that you do not even recognize this verse is scary.

And what do you think he was doing when he healed people and gave the gift of sight, hearing, cleansing from leprosy?

It was not an exchange of gifts in the sense of material gifts whereby money was spent so that they could exchange them under an idol tree.

No one thinks we are fellowshipping with darkness, except you.

Uh, no. There are other conservative Bible believing Christians who believe as I do.
Again, atheists, agnostics, psychics, religionists (non-Christians) all celebrate Christmas. So if the world is in on it, then its not a purely Christian holiday. It’s a national worldly holiday or celebration with other like minded people. Is there a national holiday for the Lord’s supper celebrate primarily by Christians? No. Why? Because it is a Bible endorsed teaching. Christmas is not taught in the Bible. Nowhere do we see Jesus or the apostles give us any kind of instruction to worship Jesus as a baby when He possessed His adult human body.

Why do you post on these forums?

To preach the Word as it is written, and to give glory to Jesus Christ.
To help believers see what His Word says vs. what they prefer it to say to endorse their own worldly pleasures.

Don't you know that non Christians, atheists and some from Christian cults post on here too? What fellowship does light have with darkness? Why are you sharing a forum with non Christians?

The forums is not a place of celebration, but it is a platform of communication to reach others.
There is also a Christian section where unbelievers are not allowed to post, as well.
I should not have to tell you these difference but you appear to have the problem in not recognizing the difference of things.
You falsely conflate things that are not related as being the same to push the false Christ-mass agenda.

Why do you go to the shops, to work, to the library or wherever? Don't you know that non Christians, atheists, people from other religions go to the same place as you - and may work in the same office as you?

Again, you have a problem in being able to recognize the difference of things.
What is your education level?
Most Bible studying Christians know that fellowship involves worship together and it involves one connecting as a close friend when Paul says, what communion does light have with darkness in 2 Corinthians 6:14. We do not hang out with unbelievers as way of life. We do not run with them in their sinful practices or ways. Going to a store, work, or the library is not fellowship. You are not connecting with people there as close friends by just being there. I should not have to tell you this because it is obvious they are not the same thing.

What fellowship does light have with darkness? Don't you think you should stop doing all these things that non Christians do?

Again, you do not understand what this verse is actually saying if you think it could refer to going to the library.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

The article quoted by BH is written by a group of editors, none of whom appear to be historians

History.com Editors​

HISTORY.com works with a wide range of writers and editors to create accurate and informative content. All articles are regularly reviewed and updated by the HISTORY.com team. Articles with the “HISTORY.com Editors” byline have been written or edited by the HISTORY.com editors, including Amanda Onion, Missy Sullivan, Matt Mullen and Christian Zapata.

The Bible is sufficient grounds alone to make a case against Christ-mass. One, the secular national holiday known as Christ-mass promotes lies in that the holiday teaches that three wise men visited Jesus as a baby. You see it in cards, and pictures everywhere during the Christ-mass season. Also, Christmas is derivative of Christ-mass. The term “mass” is predominately Catholic. So this shows you its true origins. Yes, I know. You claim it as your own version of history on this with different this and that. But we are not talking about your version of Christmas, but we are talking about the national holiday of Christmas that you appear to want to defend, as well. But why? Such a day promotes many lies, which also includes the Santa narrative whereby parents lie to their children about his existence.

Side Note:

I know. To be fair, I know your version of Christmas does not promote the lie of the wise men visiting Jesus as a baby but it was the shepherds. In any case, there is no biblical grounds to worship Jesus as a baby after He was in adult form. There is nothing said by Jesus or the apostles to do such a thing. Neither are we to regard European images of Jesus and His followers, either. The icons used in the Orthodox church are not the actual depictions of Christ and His apostles. They are make-believe images (Which is technically a lie). So this is one problem I would have with your practice of it. No offense of course. I just follow the Bible and I strive not to add or take away from what it actually says. Jesus said we will be judged based on His words (John 12:48). His words will judge us on the last day. There are Orthodox churches that promote Santa and the Christmas tree. I know, I have seen it in a Google image search. So this is yet another problem I see, as well. In the Santa mythos, you can see a baby bowing down to him. This is pretty disturbing, to say the least. But things are no different today. You have kids writing letters to a fictional being to get gifts via the post office.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

It has already been argued that the "groves" are actually groups of Ashera poles. But even accepting that groves (as in a group of trees) is a correct translation, a grove is inherently a group of trees, not a single tree.



More of a simplification for aesthetic purposes than a lie. A single nativity scene is preferable to splitting it up into two. But even if we grant this as a problem, this isn't an argument to not celebrate the holiday, but to celebrate the holiday while not giving people an incorrect impression of these events.



Even in cold areas, sometimes you get unusually warm days, so it isn't impossible for this to have been such a day, or even just a warmer winter in general. It's not like the area is known for extremely cold weather or anything, even in winter; the coldest month in Jerusalem is January at an average of 46Fº/8ºC, which isn't that cold.

But even on a "typical" weather, it hardly seems impossible. From page 328 of "Handbook of Biblical Chronology" by Jack Finegan (2015):

"As to objection to a wintertime date on the supposition that the shepherds would not have been at this time "out in the field, keeping watch over their flock by night" (Luke 2:2), William Hendriksen quotes a letter dated Jan 16, 1967, received from the New Testament scholar Harry Mulder, then teaching in Beirut, in which the latter tells of being in Shepherd Field at Bethlehem on the just-passed Christmas Eve, and says: “Right near us a few flocks of sheep were nestled. Even the lambs were not lacking. . . . It is therefore definitely not impossible that the Lord Jesus was born in December""

His citation is "William Hendriksen, Matthew (NTC; Grand Rapids: Baker, 1973), 1:182". I considered including what he says there, but unfortunately, it's a bit long, and I didn't want to have to manually type it all up. Still, one may read the applicable page of the work for free here, though it may require a free account on archive.org to read:

Exposition of the gospel according to Matthew : Hendriksen, William, 1900- : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

viii, 1015 p. ; 24 cm

archive.org

So this seems to indicate that, no, it would not have been impossible for shepherds to be tending their sheep at night during this time. Unless the claim is that the sheep would be okay, but not the shepherds... but shepherds can wear warm clothes.

(in the interests of disclosure, I should admit that I mostly took the talking points in this portion of my reply from this page. However, as my links show, I made sure to verify the claims--particularly the quotation from Finegan--that I took from it)



The reason non-Christians "celebrate" Christmas is because it was an extremely popular Christian holiday and they wanted to keep doing it even after quitting Christianity (and the fact that businesses want to try to sell their stuff to the non-Christian population, so they try to play down the religious aspect). But all this came only after Christmas was a clearly Christian holiday. It doesn't make much sense to try to say "well, these other guys later on tried to make it more secular" as a strike against it. But supposing it somehow is, do you therefore affirm that there was no problem whatsoever in celebrating Christmas in the past, before it became more secularized?



The amount of money I spent on Christmas presents to family members last year was quite small compared to what I gave to charities and church.

But someone might say that maybe that's not the case for other people. While I don't have statistics on how much everyone else spends on Christmas presents compared to their charitable donations, I will note that we see a considerable increase in charitable donations around Christmas; this tells me that "more than 3 in 5 Americans (63 percent) typically donate to an organization or charitable cause in the last two weeks of the year." And according to this, nonprofits get about 26% of their yearly charitable donations in December.



I never accused you of doing so. But you are using a biblical interpretation that appears to have been popularized by Armstrongism. My point is that the earliest people I can find who thought Jeremiah 10 was a warning against Christmas trees were in the 20th century and were people with very weird ideas (again, the earliest person I found it said it in a book where they said the world would come to an end in 1930 according to their interpretation of Revelation). If anyone can find someone who applied Jeremiah 10 to Christmas trees prior to what I have found, by all means tell me.

According to this verse they are not poles.

Deuteronomy 16:21
“Thou shalt not plant thee a grove of any trees near unto the altar of the LORD thy God, which thou shalt make thee.“

See, this is why you need to read the Bible instead of just running to the definition of that word. Look at the context of every occurrence of grove and read the chapters. This is the real way to define words in the Bible instead of letting the scholars redefine what words actually mean in the Bible. The Bible is its own interpreter.

 

[prodromos]

One, Christ-mass promotes lies in that the holiday teaches that three wisemen visited Jesus as a baby.

So you, like King Herod, have ascertained that Jesus may have been nearly 2 years old, based on when the star first appeared to the Magi, but the Scripture is silent as to whether the star only appeared when Christ was born or whether it had appeared earlier, prompting the Magi to begin preparation for their journey so that they would arrive soon after His birth. Herod obviously accounted for both since he did not spare infants under a year old but even had newborns killed.
Scripture is silent as to His age when the Magi visited. You are in fact adding to Scripture with your interpretation.

 

[Strong in Him]

No. They did worship trees in the times of the Old Testament.

In the TIMES of the OT, maybe.
Did God's people worship trees? Even if you can find a verse which says that they did, why are you assuming that we are worshipping trees?

If you were going to rebuke these people back in their times, what part of God’s Word would you use? Jeremiah 10, Deuteronomy 16:21-22, and the verses that mention groves.

If I were rebuking GOD'S people who worshipped trees, I'd remind them of all that the had done for them, that he was their only God and that he had commanded them not to worship any idols.
If I was quoting the law, I would use whole passages/books of Scripture, not pull odd verses out of context or use a verse because it "mentioned" groves.

Scripture says the Israelites had groves, along with traditional idols, etcetera.

A grove of trees = several trees, like an orchard.
They are not sinful, because trees are not sinful, nor are they idols.

This is true. But if one decorates them, then it becomes an idol.

No it doesn't. A tree that has decoration on it is just a tree that has decoration on it.
It doesn't suddenly turn into an idol - it has no power to turn into anything. It is people who make objects into idols, not the objects themselves.

The first part of the instruction in Jeremiah is talking about the cutting down of trees and decorating them and putting clothes on them.

Show me anyone who puts clothes on a Christmas tree.

When you get to verse 14 in Jeremiah 10, it is not a continuation of the idol trees.

A tree is not an idol.

Did God give Solomon the instructions to put gold over trees?

Don't know - but Solomon built the temple according to God's plan, so maybe.

In God's instruction to kings in Deuteronomy 17:14-20, we learn that God specifically warns against multiplying horses, multiplying wives, and multiplying silver and gold.

So?

There obviously was a downward spiral of problems involving Solomon, which led him to eventually have tons of wives, concubines, and with him worshiping other false gods.

Solomon had many wives because he made treaties with other countries to secure peace.
Foreign wives brought foreign gods into Israel - nothing to do with trees.

Noah‘s Ark is a boat and not an a tree that is decorated with gold, silver, and clothing

I know that.
But you were quoting Jeremiah 10 - trees were cut down to make the ark, the planks of wood were nailed together and the ark was covered with tar and pitch.

The Ark of the Covenant was a design instruction from God. It was to hold the tables of the Ten Commandments, and other sacred things at that time period.

I know.
The ark, the table, the altar of burnt offering were made from acacia wood - acacia trees that had been cut down. The ark of the covenant was overlaid with gold.

But this in no way resembles a tree that is decorated with gold and clothing that God forbids in Jeremiah 10.

In no way does a plastic Christmas tree resemble a tree from the forest which has been cut down and shaped with a chisel, as in Jer 10.
But that hasn't stopped you from condemning people who have one.

In fact, why would God forbid such a thing?

He wasn't forbidding it, he was stating what the other nations were doing - what their practices were.
In no way does that say, "anyone who is alive in 3000+ years time; you must not buy a Christmas tree."

Nope. Druids worship trees in history, and this practice goes back to Old Testament times of which we can read about in the verses that mention the word “grove” (trees) many times.

This is a Christian forum; we're not druids.

But it’s a lie. The Bible does not refer to the wisemen as being kings.
Neither does the Bible say there were three wisemen.
Neither does the Bible say that the wisemen visited Jesus as a baby.

They are not lies, they are misconceptions.
People have read things into Scripture - like "there are 3 gifts mentioned, so there must have been 3 Magi."
Rather like anyone who reads a couple of verses from an OT book, think "that sounds like a Christmas tree; it must be a Christmas tree" - and then use it to berate their fellow Christians for idol worship.

People are either biblically illiterate or they simply do not care what the Bible actually says.

Says the person who claims that Jer 10 is talking about a Christmas tree, tells anyone who bends down that they are bowing to it and makes other preposterous statements.
You cannot show us where the words Christmas tree are in Jeremiah 1800, or anywhere else - therefore you have no case to answer.

They exchanged the truth of God for a lie if they are into such deceptions. This is just one of the many reasons why a person should stop celebrating Christmas. Christmas is a day of promoting things contrary to Scripture.

Only if you decide to make it so.
Some of us read the nativity story at Christmas - you know, the one foretold in the OT and proclaimed in the Gospels.
Some of us rejoice as the angels rejoiced.
Some of us find ways to share the Good News with non Christians - Christmas is a perfect opportunity of reminding them that it all began with God and is about God.

Then you should stop celebrating Christmas because this IS promoted on this holiday.

And you should really stop telling me what I should do - and imply that if I do it I am sinning in some way.

So imagine if you called up your family and friends and told them happy birthday on a day they were not born.
Imagine if you celebrated their birthday on a day they were not born and tried to get them to participate?
They would think you were nuts; Especially if you insisted their birthday was on a date that was not when they were really born.

Yeah - my family and friends all have birth certificates.
They know when they were born, I know when they were born - in some cases, I was even there.

Now show me that we have a birth certificate which says that Jesus was born in September, and despite knowing this, we deliberately claim it was in December.
You can't produce one because there is no such thing.
You have been told that Dec 25th was chosen to commemorate when Jesus was born. That is not a lie.

You know, I suppose, that the prefix Dec means 10, as in decade, decagon. The prefix Oct means 8, - octopus, octagon etc. Sept means 7 - Septuagint, septuplets etc.
December was originally the 10th month, October the 8th, September the 7th etc. Then 2 extra months were added; one named after Julius Caesar (July) and another named after Augustus (August). So December then became the 12th month.
Not that the Jews called their months after Roman gods at all, nor did they have our calendar. But if they HAD, the 10 month of the year would have been December.

The correction is done in love, and with the hope that Christians will wake up to see they have been following a holiday that promotes lies and things that go against what the Bible actually teaches.

I'm sorry but it is not being done in a spirit of love - but in a spirit of "This is what you should do. This is what I have interpreted God's word to mean and if you disobey it you are disobeying God."

I can tell you did not read the OP, which is what I asked folks to do before they even posted in this thread. Just go back to the beginning of the thread and read my points and you will see the verse. The fact that you do not even recognize this verse is scary.

Oh I recognise the verse - I don't recognise your mangled interpretation of it.

You claimed that Jesus has forbidden us to exchange presents at Christmas because he said "give without expecting a reward".
If you believe that this is what it means, then do it - go and buy clothes for the poor, shelter for the homeless and food for those who use foodbanks. They can't give to you in return, so you'll be doing the right thing.

Jesus said we should not give to someone with the idea, or expectation, that we will get something in return. Thinking of ourselves and what we will GET BACK is not a good motive for giving.
He did not say that we cannot give gifts to show our love.

Again, you have a problem in being able to recognize the difference of things.
What is your education level?

Wow, and I thought you said that correction was being done in love!
That is just rude.

You were talking about non Christians etc sharing our celebration of Christmas; saying that it shouldn't happen because light cannot fellowship with darkness.
There are many things that we do in this world which non Christians also do - shopping, following hobbies, even breathing.
We cannot, and should not, avoid something just because a non Christian also does it - that it ridiculous and impractical.
Jesus ate and drank with tax collectors and sinners - he didn't avoid them because they didn't share his faith.

Again, you do not understand what this verse is actually saying if you think it could refer to going to the library.

Oh the irony!
You say that I have a problem understanding?? Of course this doesn't refer to going to the library - read my reply again.

 

[Der Alte]

The article quoted by BH is written by a group of editors, none of whom appear to be historians

History.com Editors​

HISTORY.com works with a wide range of writers and editors to create accurate and informative content. All articles are regularly reviewed and updated by the HISTORY.com team. Articles with the “HISTORY.com Editors” byline have been written or edited by the HISTORY.com editors, including Amanda Onion, Missy Sullivan, Matt Mullen and Christian Zapata.

IOW a bunch of guys/gals giving their unsupported opinions which has about as much credibility as the scribbles on a public facility wall.

 

[Der Alte]

So you, like King Herod, have ascertained that Jesus may have been nearly 2 years old, based on when the star first appeared to the Magi, but the Scripture is silent as to whether the star only appeared when Christ was born or whether it had appeared earlier, prompting the Magi to begin preparation for their journey so that they would arrive soon after His birth. Herod obviously accounted for both since he did not spare infants under a year old but even had newborns killed.
Scripture is silent as to His age when the Magi visited. You are in fact adding to Scripture with your interpretation.

One might infer that Jesus was about 2 years old at the time since Herod had male babies up to 2 years old killed Matt 2:16.

 

[Der Alte]

There is nothing new under the sun. Tree worship happened in the Old Testament. The Scriptures talk about the forbidding of groves (trees that they would worship). Exodus 20 condemns not only just bowing down to idols but just making one.

Prove that tree worship happened in the O.T. I want to see the word "worship" associated with trees. I don't mean supposition or assumptions. Don't want to be the bearer of bad news but the word "worship" occurs 40 times in the OT never with the word tree/s

Lies are promoted on Christmas. They say there were three kings or wisemen who visited Jesus while He was a baby in a manger. But it was actually the shepherds who seen Jesus as a baby. The wisemen were not kings and there was no exact number of them given. The wisemen visited Jesus when He was a child in a house.

Christians are NOT responsible for how the secular world has misappropriated the birth of Jesus or any other Christian observance. If you have a problem with any group take it up with that group and DO NOT paint all Christians with your big black biased brush.

Mat_2:1 Now when Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judaea in the days of Herod the king, behold, there came wise men from the east to Jerusalem,​

This vs. says "when Jesus was born" NOT "after Jesus was born."

Another lie is they say Jesus is born on December 25th. This is the most unlikely time of the Incarnation of Christ. It would be too cold for shepherds to be tending their sheep at night during this time.

It is only a lie if the exact date is known. Do you know the exact date? Or still slinging that big black biased brush? Actually the temple sheep were tended near Jerusalem year around providing sacrifices for even the winter months. See, Life and Times of Jesus the Messiah, Alfred Edersheim, a Jewish Scholar. pg. 611-612

https://www.ntslibrary.com/PDF%20Books/The%20Life%20and%20Times%20of%20Jesus%20the%20Messiah.pdf

Please note this Jewish scholar's reference to Dec 25 and his explanation.

Christmas is a holiday celebrated by some atheists, agnostics, psychics, religionists (non-Christians), etcetera. It’s a national holiday. All united on one day. Giving gifts primarily to those who love you was a practice condemned by Jesus. What fellowship does light have with darkness?

Irrelevant, irrelevant and irrelevant nonsense. Christians are NOT responsible for how the secular world has misappropriated and/or participate in Christian observances.

BTW ~ I am also not into Armstrongism.

Worse.

 

[The Liturgist]

This is true. But if one decorates them, then it becomes an idol.

Nonsense. By this logic if I wear a necktie or decorate my house with fresh flowers and a landscape painting, I have committed idolatry. It’s absurd.

 

[The Liturgist]

One might infer that Jesus was about 2 years old at the time since Herod had male babies up to 2 years old killed Matt 2:16.

And also we know he was actually born around 6 AD since Caesar Augustus was still alive.

 

[The Liturgist]

IOW a bunch of guys/gals giving their unsupported opinions which has about as much credibility as the scribbles on a public facility wall.

Those people are literally the ones who publish Ancient Aliens. They have no academic credibility among historians or indeed among practically anyone else, and indeed have discredited themselves to the point that even citing them constitutes the appeal to unqualified authority fallacy.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Nonsense. By this logic if I wear a necktie or decorate my house with fresh flowers and a landscape painting, I have committed idolatry. It’s absurd.

I did not write the Bible. God did. If you put away the practices of Christmas, you will be able to see. But you need to ask the Spirit to reveal such things to you.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Those people are literally the ones who publish Ancient Aliens. They have no academic credibility among historians or indeed among practically anyone else, and indeed have discredited themselves to the point that even citing them constitutes the appeal to unqualified authority fallacy.

Aliens are actually demons.

 

[Strong in Him]

I did not write the Bible. God did.

But you seem to be saying that you're the only one who can interpret it.

If you put away the practices of Christmas, you will be able to see.

What "practices of Christmas"?

 

[prodromos]

I did not write the Bible. God did. If you put away the practices of Christmas, you will be able to see. But you need to ask the Spirit to reveal such things to you.

What incredible hubris.

 

[Der Alte]

I did not write the Bible. God did. If you put away the practices of Christmas, you will be able to see. But you need to ask the Spirit to reveal such things to you.

I'm so old I first went to Sunday School when FDR was president and I remember his death. It is not old history for me. Have you ever been in a church during a Christmas service? What did they "practice" which you object to? I have and I have never seen Santa Claus, reindeer, a Christmas tree.

 

[JSRG]

The Bible is sufficient grounds alone to make a case against Christ-mass. One, the secular national holiday known as Christ-mass promotes lies in that the holiday teaches that three wise men visited Jesus as a baby. You see it in cards, and pictures everywhere during the Christ-mass season.

Three Magi is not a "lie." The Bible never states the number explicitly, so three is a possible number (and would make some sense, as they brought three gifts). It might be an assumption, but it's not a lie.

In regards to the age of Jesus, the Bible never explicitly states Jesus's age at the time of the meeting. It does say that Herod ordered people under the age of two to be killed, but does that mean Jesus was between the ages of one and two, or could Jesus have been younger and Herod was offering a higher age just to be thorough? We don't know. So again, it might be an assumption, but not a lie.

Also, Christmas is derivative of Christ-mass. The term “mass” is predominately Catholic. So this shows you its true origins.

Christmas--the word in English--doesn't show up until around the 11th century AD. That is more than 500 years after it was being celebrated.

Indeed, the majority of people do not even use the term Christmas, or anything that sounds like it. Let's take a look at it in various languages and see how they write the word Christmas:

Spanish: Navidad
Portuguese: Natal
French: Noël
Italian: Natale
German: Weihnachten
Greek: Χριστούγεννα (Christoúgenna)
Chinese: 聖誕節 (Shèngdànjié)
Bengali: বড়দিন (Baṛadina)
Russian: рождество (Rozhdestvo)

One may notice the obvious fact that the above ones, all popular languages, bear no resemblance whatsoever to Christmas. Most derive in some way from the word "birth". The Romance languages, coming from Latin, trace their words for Christmas to the Latin word nativitas, which means birth (and was, in Latin, used as the term for Christmas). The Greek word is a combination of Χριστού ("of christ") and γεννα ("birth"), meaning "birth of Christ." The language with the most native speakers in the world, Chinese, pronounces it Shèngdànjié and the three symbols in it (聖誕節) mean "holy birth festival". The term in Russian seems to come from an earlier word meaning birth.

Not all of the above terms derive from the word birth. The German word is a portmenteau of the words for "holy" and "night". The Bengali word apparently means "big day".

To be fair, some languages do have it be similar to English, like Dutch where it's Kerstmis, and a number of Asian or African languages take it from English, like how Hindi has क्रिसमस (Krisamas). Japanese has multiple words you can use to refer to it; クリスマス (Kurisumasu) seems to be the most popular and obviously derives from Christmas, but there's also ノエル (Noeru, coming from Noel), 聖誕祭 (seitansai, meaning holy birth festival), or 降誕祭 (koutansei, meaning regal birth festival).

So to try to use the word "Christmas" to refer to any "true origins" of the holiday. Not only do our first records of the word Christmas come substantially later than its celebration, most people don't even refer to it as Christmas.

 

[FenderTL5]

I did not write the Bible. God did. If you put away the practices of Christmas, you will be able to see. But you need to ask the Spirit to reveal such things to you.

I detect a trace of Gnosticism in that post..

 

[FenderTL5]

Aliens are actually demons.

Chapter and verse, King James Only saying this about aliens, pretty please.

 

[Jipsah]

A tree that has decoration on it is just a tree that has decoration on it.
It doesn't suddenly turn into an idol - it has no power to turn into anything. It is people who make objects into idols, not the objects themselves.

Seems like that ought to be self evident, and I reckon it is to anyone other than one who doesn't have some presuppositions to the contrary.

Show me anyone who puts clothes on a Christmas tree.

Too many arms.

A tree is not an idol.

Could be, I reckon, but I personally never met any tree worshippers.

Solomon had many wives because he made treaties with other countries to secure peace.
Foreign wives brought foreign gods into Israel - nothing to do with trees.

Yep.

But you were quoting Jeremiah 10 - trees were cut down to make the ark, the planks of wood were nailed together and the ark was covered with tar and pitch.

The verses in Jeremiah were obviously referring to the making of elaborate furniture, or it reads that way to me.

This is a Christian forum; we're not druids.

Think the market for druids tanked after the Christianization of Britain.

People have read things into Scripture - like "there are 3 gifts mentioned, so there must have been 3 Magi."
Rather like anyone who reads a couple of verses from an OT book, think "that sounds like a Christmas tree; it must be a Christmas tree" - and then use it to berate their fellow Christians for idol worship.

Proves they're literally Holier Than Thou, and who doesn't want that?

Some of us read the nativity story at Christmas - you know, the one foretold in the OT and proclaimed in the Gospels.
Some of us rejoice as the angels rejoiced.
Some of us find ways to share the Good News with non Christians - Christmas is a perfect opportunity of reminding them that it all began with God and is about God.

Preach!

And you should really stop telling me what I should do - and imply that if I do it I am sinning in some way.

That's especially noing (my daughters'abbreviation for "annoying"; rhymes with "boing") when these folks seemmost intent of decided when we must not worship Christ, because some pagans, at some time

Now show me that we have a birth certificate which says that Jesus was born in September, and despite knowing this, we deliberately claim it was in December.
You can't produce one because there is no such thing.
You have been told that Dec 25th was chosen to commemorate when Jesus was born. That is not a lie.

Just for what it's worth, fromthe Encyclopedia Brittanica:

"The Roman Christian historian Sextus Julius Africanus dated Jesus’ conception to March 25 (the same date upon which he held that the world was created), which, after nine months in his mother’s womb, would result in a December 25 birth."

"The church in Rome began formally celebrating Christmas on December 25 in 336, during the reign of the emperor Constantine. As Constantine had made Christianity the effective religion of the empire, some have speculated that choosing this date had the political motive of weakening the established pagan celebrations. The date was not widely accepted in the Eastern Empire, where January 6 had been favored, for another half-century, and Christmas did not become a major Christian festival until the 9th century."

I'm sorry but it is not being done in a spirit of love - but in a spirit of "This is what you should do. This is what I have interpreted God's word to mean and if you disobey it you are disobeying God."

It's isn't even his interpretation of God's Word, but that of the sect he has chosen to align with. For instance, I guarantee he didn't come up with the verses from Jeremiah that he holds so dear simply by reading the OT and associating it with Christmas trees on his own. He could have got it off the net, where it's often cited by fringy hyper-fundy groups, or he is a member of one of those groups himself. I 'spect it's the latter, because those groups tend to forbid the observance of any purely Christian feasts, on the basis that only those holidays commanded in the OT are legitimate and that all the rest (Christmas, Eatrer, etc.) are "pagan".

You claimed that Jesus has forbidden us to exchange presents at Christmas because he said "give without expecting a reward".
If you believe that this is what it means, then do it - go and buy clothes for the poor, shelter for the homeless and food for those who use foodbanks. They can't give to you in return, so you'll be doing the right thing.

Maybe why the rescue missions here in the States receive the majority of their year's donations during the Christmas season.

You were talking about non Christians etc sharing our celebration of Christmas; saying that it shouldn't happen because light cannot fellowship with darkness.

Funny, I've never seen many unbelievers at Christmas Mass, oR Lessons and Carols. None that I could vouch for at Korean Christmas Day services, either. Ditto sunrise Easter Mass ( I'm told that worshipping at sunrise is pagan and ought not be allowed. That's another strike against the Koreans again. Not only do they keep Christmas and Easter as Christian holy days, and "bow down" to show respect, but they're very keen on sunrise prayer services as well. At the Korean Anglican I attend, the rector has to roust out 3 days a week to conduct sunrise services.)

There are many things that we do in this world which non Christians also do - shopping, following hobbies, even breathing.
We cannot, and should not, avoid something just because a non Christian also does it - that it ridiculous and impractical.
Jesus ate and drank with tax collectors and sinners - he didn't avoid them because they didn't share his faith.

Oh the irony! You say that I have a problem understanding??

Not that I have ever observed.