Why I Think Christmas is Not Biblical (Please read OP before posting).

[The Liturgist]

That's because it's not, and it's nonsense.
A tree is not an idol, unless you pray to, or bow down and worship it.
You have been told this - you clearly don't care.

Actually even if you prayed to it, as long as such prayer did not constitute worship but rather sought its intercession before God the Father, Son and Holy Ghost, that would not make it an idol.

For it to be an idol, it has to be subject to actual worship, which requires adoration and sacrifice. For example, if we offered the Eucharist to a Christmas Tree rather than to Christ our True God, that would be idolatrous. And also rather stupid, in the grand scheme of things.

I found our friend @prodromos remarks particularly amusing. The idea of Christians whether intentionally or by accident engaging in what I suppose we would have to call Arborolatry, is hilarious to me. It presupposes that despite the Gospel and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, theologically well versed Christians could engage in the same kind of silliness as Japanese Shinto or the Shamanist religion practiced by some Lapplanders (who I suspect recreated it; I doubt any significant number of the Sammi people did not convert to Christianity, but since Lutheranism has become unfashionable in post-war Scandinavia due to what I regard as terrible management of the state churches the revival of Paganism seems inevitable.

But that is actual Paganism, whereas the celebration of Christmas is in fact anti-Pagan, despite @Bible Highlighter ’s arguments to the contrary, which are inconsistent and unconvincing and contradict the Patristic record of the early church.

 

[The Liturgist]

But it says not to even cut a tree and decorate it

No it doesn’t.

talks about not planting a tree near the alter of God.

Fortunately the altars of Christian churches are compliant with this requirement, as it would be impossible to serve the Eucharist if we had a massive tree right there with its branches in our face. Furthermore, the verse in question is also specifically talking about the tabernacle and the temple, which had altars for incense and animal sacrifices and a courtyard or enclosure surrounding that.

 

[The Liturgist]

Nope, it describes carving an idol, cladding it in gold and silver, then putting robes on it. It most definitely does not describe "tree worship"

Indeed so. And forgive me my brother, I just find the idea of tree worship, or should we call it arbolatry, to be so ridiculous as to be hilarious. And the idea that Christians are worshipping Christmas Trees likewise is literally incredible, in the sense of lacking credibility.

 

[Strong in Him]

Trees could be made into idols.

Ah - a tree could be made into an idol. That is different from saying that a tree IS an idol.
Maybe, after 5 years and 740 posts, we are getting somewhere?

But it says not to even cut a tree and decorate it, speaking of tree worship even during that time period.

No it doesn't.
In Jeremiah 10:3 God is describing the practices of the other nations that were surrounding Israel. They cut trees down, made them into idols, decorated them with silver and gold that had been beaten.
This is what THEY did.
The verse does not say that - 2000 years later - people are forbidden from cutting trees down, putting them in pots, decorating them and having them in their homes for a few days/weeks as a decorative item. The trees then get thrown out/recycled and no one gives them a thought til the following year. That's not at all the same as what other countries were doing in Jeremiah's time. These countries didn't have just one God as Israel did - they had hundreds, and literally made their own.

Deuteronomy 16:21 talks about not planting a tree near the alter of God.

No one plants a tree near the altar of God.

To plant a tree, you would have to dig up the ground, place the seed, or sapling, into it, replace the earth and keep the sapling watered and fed.
If a tree has been cut down from the forest - which you, yourself have been saying for the last 700+ posts - then it is not planted. It may be stuck into a pot, but it has been cut off from its roots. It cannot grow.

Then it talks about idol images in verse 22 (Deuteronomy 16:22).

So because it "talks about" idol images, you are assuming that we are all making those images?

The Bible also "talks about" war, famine, child sacrifice, circumcision - are you saying that we are doing all those things also?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

To all:

“Most 19th-century Americans found Christmas trees an oddity. The first record of one being on display was in the 1830s by the German settlers of Pennsylvania, although trees had been a tradition in many German homes much earlier. The Pennsylvania German settlements had community trees as early as 1747. But, as late as the 1840s Christmas trees were seen as pagan symbols and not accepted by most Americans.”

 

[Bible Highlighter]

The word “grove” appears 41 times in the Authorized Version. Before we look at these verses, we must note one exception. Genesis 21:33 contains the first occurrence: “And Abraham planted a grove in Beersheba, and called there on the name of the LORD, the everlasting God.” This “grove” is in a positive light, as Abraham is a Bible believer. The Hebrew word is “’eshel” (Strong’s #H815), a tamarisk or myrica tree [Tamarix orientalis]. It was rendered “tree” in 1 Samuel 22:6 and 1 Samuel 31:13. This fact will prove useful to us later.

As for the remaining “grove” verses (40 in all), they are negative. We present them now, reminding you the reader to sense the associated evils:

• Exodus 34:13: “But ye shall destroy their altars, break their images, and cut down their groves:….”
• Deuteronomy 7:5: “But thus shall ye deal with them; ye shall destroy their altars, and break down their images, and cut down their groves, and burn their graven images with fire.”
• Deuteronomy 12:3: “And ye shall overthrow their altars, and break their pillars, and burn their groves with fire; and ye shall hew down the graven images of their gods, and destroy the names of them out of that place.”
• Deuteronomy 16:21: “Thou shalt not plant thee a grove of any trees near unto the altar of the LORD thy God, which thou shalt make thee.”
• Judges 3:7: “And the children of Israel did evil in the sight of the LORD, and forgat the LORD their God, and served Baalim and the groves.”
• Judges 6:25: “And it came to pass the same night, that the LORD said unto him, Take thy father’s young bullock, even the second bullock of seven years old, and throw down the altar of Baal that thy father hath, and cut down the grove that is by it:….”
• Judges 6:26: “And build an altar unto the LORD thy God upon the top of this rock, in the ordered place, and take the second bullock, and offer a burnt sacrifice with the wood of the grove which thou shalt cut down.”
• Judges 6:28: “And when the men of the city arose early in the morning, behold, the altar of Baal was cast down, and the grove was cut down that was by it, and the second bullock was offered upon the altar that was built.”
• Judges 6:30: “Then the men of the city said unto Joash, Bring out thy son, that he may die: because he hath cast down the altar of Baal, and because he hath cut down the grove that was by it.”
• 1 Kings 14:15: “For the LORD shall smite Israel, as a reed is shaken in the water, and he shall root up Israel out of this good land, which he gave to their fathers, and shall scatter them beyond the river, because they have made their groves, provoking the LORD to anger.”
• 1 Kings 14:23: “For they also built them high places, and images, and groves, on every high hill, and under every green tree.”
• 1 Kings 15:13: “And also Maachah his mother, even her he removed from being queen, because she had made an idol in a grove; and Asa destroyed her idol, and burnt it by the brook Kidron.”
• 1 Kings 16:33: “And Ahab made a grove; and Ahab did more to provoke the LORD God of Israel to anger than all the kings of Israel that were before him.”
• 1 Kings 18:19: “Now therefore send, and gather to me all Israel unto mount Carmel, and the prophets of Baal four hundred and fifty, and the prophets of the groves four hundred, which eat at Jezebel’s table.”
• 2 Kings 13:6: “Nevertheless they departed not from the sins of the house of Jeroboam, who made Israel sin, but walked therein: and there remained the grove also in Samaria.)”
• 2 Kings 17:10: “And they set them up images and groves in every high hill, and under every green tree:….”
• 2 Kings 17:16: “And they left all the commandments of the LORD their God, and made them molten images, even two calves, and made a grove, and worshipped all the host of heaven, and served Baal.”
• 2 Kings 18:4: “He removed the high places, and brake the images, and cut down the groves, and brake in pieces the brasen serpent that Moses had made: for unto those days the children of Israel did burn incense to it: and he called it Nehushtan.”
• 2 Kings 21:3: “For he built up again the high places which Hezekiah his father had destroyed; and he reared up altars for Baal, and made a grove, as did Ahab king of Israel; and worshipped all the host of heaven, and served them.”
• 2 Kings 21:7: “And he set a graven image of the grove that he had made in the house, of which the LORD said to David, and to Solomon his son, In this house, and in Jerusalem, which I have chosen out of all tribes of Israel, will I put my name for ever:….”

 

[Bible Highlighter]

• 2 Kings 23:4: “And the king commanded Hilkiah the high priest, and the priests of the second order, and the keepers of the door, to bring forth out of the temple of the LORD all the vessels that were made for Baal, and for the grove, and for all the host of heaven: and he burned them without Jerusalem in the fields of Kidron, and carried the ashes of them unto Bethel.”
• 2 Kings 23:6: “And he brought out the grove from the house of the LORD, without Jerusalem, unto the brook Kidron, and burned it at the brook Kidron, and stamped it small to powder, and cast the powder thereof upon the graves of the children of the people.”
• 2 Kings 23:7: “And he brake down the houses of the sodomites, that were by the house of the LORD, where the women wove hangings for the grove.”
• 2 Kings 23:14: “And he brake in pieces the images, and cut down the groves, and filled their places with the bones of men.”
• 2 Kings 23:15: “Moreover the altar that was at Bethel, and the high place which Jeroboam the son of Nebat, who made Israel to sin, had made, both that altar and the high place he brake down, and burned the high place, and stamped it small to powder, and burned the grove.”
• 2 Chronicles 14:3: “For he took away the altars of the strange gods, and the high places, and brake down the images, and cut down the groves:….”
• 2 Chronicles 15:16: “And also concerning Maachah the mother of Asa the king, he removed her from being queen, because she had made an idol in a grove: and Asa cut down her idol, and stamped it, and burnt it at the brook Kidron.”
• 2 Chronicles 17:6: “And his heart was lifted up in the ways of the LORD: moreover he took away the high places and groves out of Judah.”
• 2 Chronicles 19:3: “Nevertheless there are good things found in thee, in that thou hast taken away the groves out of the land, and hast prepared thine heart to seek God.”
• 2 Chronicles 24:18: “And they left the house of the LORD God of their fathers, and served groves and idols: and wrath came upon Judah and Jerusalem for this their trespass.”
• 2 Chronicles 31:1: “Now when all this was finished, all Israel that were present went out to the cities of Judah, and brake the images in pieces, and cut down the groves, and threw down the high places and the altars out of all Judah and Benjamin, in Ephraim also and Manasseh, until they had utterly destroyed them all. Then all the children of Israel returned, every man to his possession, into their own cities.”
• 2 Chronicles 33:3: “For he built again the high places which Hezekiah his father had broken down, and he reared up altars for Baalim, and made groves, and worshipped all the host of heaven, and served them.”
• 2 Chronicles 33:19: “His prayer also, and how God was intreated of him, and all his sins, and his trespass, and the places wherein he built high places, and set up groves and graven images, before he was humbled: behold, they are written among the sayings of the seers.”
• 2 Chronicles 34:3: “For in the eighth year of his reign, while he was yet young, he began to seek after the God of David his father: and in the twelfth year he began to purge Judah and Jerusalem from the high places, and the groves, and the carved images, and the molten images.”
• 2 Chronicles 34:4: “And they brake down the altars of Baalim in his presence; and the images, that were on high above them, he cut down; and the groves, and the carved images, and the molten images, he brake in pieces, and made dust of them, and strowed it upon the graves of them that had sacrificed unto them.”
• 2 Chronicles 34:7: “And when he had broken down the altars and the groves, and had beaten the graven images into powder, and cut down all the idols throughout all the land of Israel, he returned to Jerusalem.”
• Isaiah 17:8: “And he shall not look to the altars, the work of his hands, neither shall respect that which his fingers have made, either the groves, or the images.”
• Isaiah 27:9: “By this therefore shall the iniquity of Jacob be purged; and this is all the fruit to take away his sin; when he maketh all the stones of the altar as chalkstones that are beaten in sunder, the groves and images shall not stand up.”
• Jeremiah 17:2: “Whilst their children remember their altars and their groves by the green trees upon the high hills.”
• Micah 5:14: “And I will pluck up thy groves out of the midst of thee: so will I destroy thy cities.”

Source used:

What are “groves?”

WHAT ARE “GROVES?” by Shawn Brasseaux Friend, there seems to be much confusion as to what “groves” are in Scripture. Hopefully, we can make sense of this topic for you. THE KING JAMES BIBLE SPEAKS …

forwhatsaiththescriptures.org

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Groves are basically trees. They can be a series of trees. There appears to be a variation of how it is used but basically they are trees. But if you pay attention carefully to the Bible verse list above, the Bible distinguishes between groves (trees) and traditional idols. This means Jeremiah 10 can make a distinction between idol trees that are decorated with gold and silver and clothes vs the regular idols that look like animals or people.

 

[Der Alte]

The King James Bible says differently.
It says:
Jeremiah 10:3 KJV
“For the customs of the people are vain: for one cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the axe.”

You are in error because you omit the rest of the command.

Jeremiah 10:3-5​

(3) For the customs of the people are vain: for one cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the axe.​

(4) They deck it with silver and with gold; they fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it move not.​

Nobody, no how expects a decorated tree to move but pagans believed that their deities moved around.

(5) They are upright as the palm tree, but speak not: they must needs be borne, because they cannot go. Be not afraid of them; for they cannot do evil, neither also is it in them to do good.​

Decorated trees are not expected to speak, move about and do good and evil to those who have them. But pagan deities were feared and were believed to move around and do good and evil to their followers.
Here is the verse you ignore because it does not fit your narrative. This vs. is still talking about the tree in vs.3.

Jeremiah 10:9​

(9) Silver spread into plates is brought from Tarshish, and gold from Uphaz, the work of the workman, and of the hands of the founder: blue and purple is their clothing: they are all the work of cunning men.​

When gold and silver is graven into plates and put on a tree then the tree becomes and idol. Decorated trees do not wear clothing of any color, including blue and purple. Purple dye was very, very expensive, it was the color worn only by kings and the very rich. It does not require cunning men to put decorations on a tree, a child can do it.

 

[Der Alte]

• 2 Kings 23:4: “And the king commanded Hilkiah the high priest, and the priests of the second order, and the keepers of the door, to bring forth out of the temple of the LORD all the vessels that were made for Baal, and for the grove, and for all the host of heaven: and he burned them without Jerusalem in the fields of Kidron, and carried the ashes of them unto Bethel.”
• 2 Kings 23:6: “And he brought out the grove from the house of the LORD, without Jerusalem, unto the brook Kidron, and burned it at the brook Kidron, and stamped it small to powder, and cast the powder thereof upon the graves of the children of the people.”
• 2 Kings 23:7: “And he brake down the houses of the sodomites, that were by the house of the LORD, where the women wove hangings for the grove.”
• 2 Kings 23:14: “And he brake in pieces the images, and cut down the groves, and filled their places with the bones of men.”
• 2 Kings 23:15: “Moreover the altar that was at Bethel, and the high place which Jeroboam the son of Nebat, who made Israel to sin, had made, both that altar and the high place he brake down, and burned the high place, and stamped it small to powder, and burned the grove.”
• 2 Chronicles 14:3: “For he took away the altars of the strange gods, and the high places, and brake down the images, and cut down the groves:….”
• 2 Chronicles 15:16: “And also concerning Maachah the mother of Asa the king, he removed her from being queen, because she had made an idol in a grove: and Asa cut down her idol, and stamped it, and burnt it at the brook Kidron.”
• 2 Chronicles 17:6: “And his heart was lifted up in the ways of the LORD: moreover he took away the high places and groves out of Judah.”
• 2 Chronicles 19:3: “Nevertheless there are good things found in thee, in that thou hast taken away the groves out of the land, and hast prepared thine heart to seek God.”
• 2 Chronicles 24:18: “And they left the house of the LORD God of their fathers, and served groves and idols: and wrath came upon Judah and Jerusalem for this their trespass.”
• 2 Chronicles 31:1: “Now when all this was finished, all Israel that were present went out to the cities of Judah, and brake the images in pieces, and cut down the groves, and threw down the high places and the altars out of all Judah and Benjamin, in Ephraim also and Manasseh, until they had utterly destroyed them all. Then all the children of Israel returned, every man to his possession, into their own cities.”
• 2 Chronicles 33:3: “For he built again the high places which Hezekiah his father had broken down, and he reared up altars for Baalim, and made groves, and worshipped all the host of heaven, and served them.”
• 2 Chronicles 33:19: “His prayer also, and how God was intreated of him, and all his sins, and his trespass, and the places wherein he built high places, and set up groves and graven images, before he was humbled: behold, they are written among the sayings of the seers.”
• 2 Chronicles 34:3: “For in the eighth year of his reign, while he was yet young, he began to seek after the God of David his father: and in the twelfth year he began to purge Judah and Jerusalem from the high places, and the groves, and the carved images, and the molten images.”
• 2 Chronicles 34:4: “And they brake down the altars of Baalim in his presence; and the images, that were on high above them, he cut down; and the groves, and the carved images, and the molten images, he brake in pieces, and made dust of them, and strowed it upon the graves of them that had sacrificed unto them.”
• 2 Chronicles 34:7: “And when he had broken down the altars and the groves, and had beaten the graven images into powder, and cut down all the idols throughout all the land of Israel, he returned to Jerusalem.”
• Isaiah 17:8: “And he shall not look to the altars, the work of his hands, neither shall respect that which his fingers have made, either the groves, or the images.”
• Isaiah 27:9: “By this therefore shall the iniquity of Jacob be purged; and this is all the fruit to take away his sin; when he maketh all the stones of the altar as chalkstones that are beaten in sunder, the groves and images shall not stand up.”
• Jeremiah 17:2: “Whilst their children remember their altars and their groves by the green trees upon the high hills.”
• Micah 5:14: “And I will pluck up thy groves out of the midst of thee: so will I destroy thy cities.”

Source used:

What are “groves?”

WHAT ARE “GROVES?” by Shawn Brasseaux Friend, there seems to be much confusion as to what “groves” are in Scripture. Hopefully, we can make sense of this topic for you. THE KING JAMES BIBLE SPEAKS …

forwhatsaiththescriptures.org

Ah yes, anyone can scour the internet and find something, somewhere to support their assumptions/presuppositions.
In English a "grove" is a group of trees usually cultivated such as a grove of apple trees, walnut trees etc. So the prohibited "groves" were not groups of fruit trees, nut trees etc.
The word translated "groves" is "asherah" which was the name of a pagan female deity which occurs 40 times in the OT. The Asherah poles, were in groups which formed "groves," were phallic shaped.

†אֲשֵׁרָה S842 TWOT183h GK895, אֲשֵׁירָה 2 K 17:16 n.pr.f. Ashera (Assyrian n.pr.f. Aš-ra-tu, c. sign for deity, in Canaanitish n.pr. Abad-Ašratum, servant of A. Schr 1888, 363, cf. Wkl & AbelThontafelfund v. El Amarna ii. 77, 1. 9, & Sayce. ii. 67, iii. 71; on deriv. cf. Assyrian aširat, adj. fem. gracious, COT) see now also GFM ASHERAH Dr Dt 16:21 Allen ASHERAH, all doubtful as to Can. goddess Asherah; question left open by Zim. 436 ff. (on Sem. goddess Aširtu-Ašratu Id. ib. 432 ff.); but v. JeremAT1 im Licht d. Alten Orients 207 (name of goddess Aširat in letter found at Taanach by Sellin (1902–3) and Id. ib. 37. 237) (Oppenheim’s find at Ras el-’Ain in Mesop., stone shaft with veiled head as top, supposed to identify post with goddess; if 2 K 23:7 refers to draped Asherim [v. on text Benz Bur], this even more plausible), Id. ib. 23, 208 f., 286. On pictorial representations of Asherah-symbol v. WHWard xix. 1 (Oct. 1902).:—usually with the art.: prob. a. a Canaanitish goddess of fortune & happiness; having prophets 1 K 18:19, an image 15:13 = 2 Ch 15:16 2 K 21:7, sacred vessels 2 K 23:4, houses v 7. b. a symbol of this goddess, a sacred tree or pole set up near an altar 1 K 16:33 2 K 13:6; 17:16; 18:4; 21:3; 23:6, 15; prohibited Dt 16:21; burnt by Gideon Ju 6:25, 26, 28, 30. Pl. אֲשֵׁרוֹת a. the goddess Ju 3:7 (prob. error for עַשְׁתָּרֹת ). b. sacred trees or poles 2 Ch 19:3; 33:3; elsewhere אֲשֵׁרִים id. Is 27:9 + 12 times; sf. Mi 5:13 + 5 times;—Ex 34:13 (J) Dt 7:5; 12:3 Is 17:8; 27:9 Je 17:2 Mi 5:13 1 K 14:15, 23 2 K 17:10, 23:14 2 Ch 14:2; 17:6; 24:18; 31:1; 33:19; 34:3, 4, 7.—(Cf. also Sta 1881, 344 f. RS i. 171 f., 175n. We 235, who think א׳ only the sacred pole.)
Francis Brown, Samuel Rolles Driver, and Charles Augustus Briggs, Enhanced Brown-Driver-Briggs Hebrew and English Lexicon (Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1977), 81.​

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Tree worship goes back to Old Testament times. There are a few scholarly articles on the topic for those who like to investigate things. Meaning, Jeremiah 10 could be used to condemn this practice along with the many verses about groves (trees).

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Of course, those who have a motivation in celebrating Christmas are not going to see such things of course. They will take any such evidence and either ignore it or twist it.

 

[JSRG]

To all:

“Most 19th-century Americans found Christmas trees an oddity. The first record of one being on display was in the 1830s by the German settlers of Pennsylvania, although trees had been a tradition in many German homes much earlier. The Pennsylvania German settlements had community trees as early as 1747. But, as late as the 1840s Christmas trees were seen as pagan symbols and not accepted by most Americans.”

Why, precisely, "most Americans" should be considered correct on this is unclear... but let's take a look at the source. You don't cite a source for this, but it appears to be from here:

History of Christmas Trees - Symbolism, Traditions & Trivia | HISTORY

The history of Christmas trees goes back to the symbolic use of evergreens in ancient Egypt and Rome and continues with the German tradition of candlelit Christmas trees first brought to America in the 1800s.

www.history.com

Okay, so let's take a look at that article's claims. It claims at the start that "The history of Christmas trees goes back to the symbolic use of evergreens in ancient Egypt and Rome and continues with the German tradition of candlelit Christmas trees first brought to America in the 1800s." This is not exactly false, but highly misleading. If you look in the article, it refers to how (although without giving citations) how some pagans took plants into their homes. The problem is that the examples it cites are extremely old, with most from the centuries BC, and the latest being in the early centuries AD.

Then suddenly it cuts to the 16th century:

"Germany is credited with starting the Christmas tree tradition as we now know it in the 16th century when devout Christians brought decorated trees into their homes. Some built Christmas pyramids of wood and decorated them with evergreens and candles if wood was scarce. It is a widely held belief that Martin Luther, the 16th-century Protestant reformer, first added lighted candles to a tree. Walking toward his home one winter evening, composing a sermon, he was awed by the brilliance of stars twinkling amidst evergreens. To recapture the scene for his family, he erected a tree in the main room and wired its branches with lighted candles."

Notice that we suddenly have a 1000+ year gap between the pagan practices of bringing in trees and Christians doing it. It is extraordinarily unlikely that the German Christians in the 16th century were pouring over books about ancient pagan practices and thought "man, those pagans way back when sure had some cool ideas, let's start doing them!" So while one could say that "the history of Christmas trees goes back" to what pagans did long ago, it would only be in the sense that they happened to do some things that were a bit similar, not that there was any actual influence. Hence the article description is rather misleading.

Incidentally, I want to make a further comment on the claim that "as late as the 1840s Christmas trees were seen as pagan symbols and not accepted by most Americans.” But it does not seem like any of them drew any connection between it and Jeremiah 10... at least, none that I can find. As I noted earlier, I've been unable to find--even in works by people claiming that Christmas trees come from paganism--anyone trying to claim Jeremiah 10 refers to Christmas trees prior to the 20th century. Alexander Hislop's pseudohistorical 19th-century work "The Two Babylons", which is the source for a number of anti-Christmas talking points, doesn't connect Christmas trees to Jeremiah 10 despite spending several pages pages trying to claim they come from paganism.

The first person I have been able to find claim Jeremiah 10 refers to Christmas trees is John Quincy Adams (no apparent relation to the President), who in 1924 published "His Apocalypse", which claimed Jeremiah 10 referred to Christmas trees (it also claimed that the Book of Revelation declared the world was going to end in 1930, so it is perhaps not a source one should trust for proper exposition of the Bible). The person who seems to have popularized the Jeremiah 10 claim was Herbert Armstrong, a binitarian radio preacher who founded the Worldwide Church of God and, among other odd ideas, claimed the British were descendants of the Israelites. So not only does the idea that Jeremiah 10 had anything to do with Christmas trees not show up until the 20th century, the people it came from appear to have had a bunch of questionable (in the case of Armstrong, downright heretical) ideas.

 

[Der Alte]

Tree worship goes back to Old Testament times. There are a few scholarly articles on the topic for those who like to investigate things. Meaning, Jeremiah 10 could be used to condemn this practice along with the many verses about groves (trees).

If this is true then you should be able to post 2 or more vss. which clearly show any group worshipping trees. Tick tock I'm waiting. How can Jer 10 be used to condemn tree worship when worship of trees is not even mentioned.

Of course, those who have a motivation in celebrating Christmas are not going to see such things of course. They will take any such evidence and either ignore it or twist it.

We celebrate the birth of Jesus Christ. We don't ignore any evidence because no, zero, none has been presented. Reason being? You have none. You are the one ignoring evidence I have mentioned Jer 10:9 more than once and you have repeatedly ignored it because it does not fit your narrative. Prove me wrong address Jer 10:9.

 

[Der Alte]

To all:
“Most 19th-century Americans found Christmas trees an oddity. The first record of one being on display was in the 1830s by the German settlers of Pennsylvania, although trees had been a tradition in many German homes much earlier. The Pennsylvania German settlements had community trees as early as 1747. But, as late as the 1840s Christmas trees were seen as pagan symbols and not accepted by most Americans.”

I cry foul! Can you provide any credible, verifiable, historical evidence to support these false claims? I don't mean an anonymous website.

 

[Der Alte]

Why, precisely, "most Americans" should be considered correct on this is unclear... but let's take a look at the source. You don't cite a source for this, but it appears to be from here:

History of Christmas Trees - Symbolism, Traditions & Trivia | HISTORY

The history of Christmas trees goes back to the symbolic use of evergreens in ancient Egypt and Rome and continues with the German tradition of candlelit Christmas trees first brought to America in the 1800s.

www.history.com

Okay, so let's take a look at that article's claims. It claims at the start that "The history of Christmas trees goes back to the symbolic use of evergreens in ancient Egypt and Rome and continues with the German tradition of candlelit Christmas trees first brought to America in the 1800s." This is not exactly false, but highly misleading. If you look in the article, it refers to how (although without giving citations) how some pagans took plants into their homes. The problem is that the examples it cites are extremely old, with most from the centuries BC, and the latest being in the early centuries AD.
Then suddenly it cuts to the 16th century:
"Germany is credited with starting the Christmas tree tradition as we now know it in the 16th century when devout Christians brought decorated trees into their homes. Some built Christmas pyramids of wood and decorated them with evergreens and candles if wood was scarce. It is a widely held belief that Martin Luther, the 16th-century Protestant reformer, first added lighted candles to a tree. Walking toward his home one winter evening, composing a sermon, he was awed by the brilliance of stars twinkling amidst evergreens. To recapture the scene for his family, he erected a tree in the main room and wired its branches with lighted candles."
Notice that we suddenly have a 1000+ year gap between the pagan practices of bringing in trees and Christians doing it. It is extraordinarily unlikely that the German Christians in the 16th century were pouring over books about ancient pagan practices and thought "man, those pagans way back when sure had some cool ideas, let's start doing them!" So while one could say that "the history of Christmas trees goes back" to what pagans did long ago, it would only be in the sense that they happened to do some things that were a bit similar, not that there was any actual influence. Hence the article description is rather misleading.
Incidentally, I want to make a further comment on the claim that "as late as the 1840s Christmas trees were seen as pagan symbols and not accepted by most Americans.” But it does not seem like any of them drew any connection between it and Jeremiah 10... at least, none that I can find. As I noted earlier, I've been unable to find--even in works by people claiming that Christmas trees come from paganism--anyone trying to claim Jeremiah 10 refers to Christmas trees prior to the 20th century. Alexander Hislop's pseudohistorical 19th-century work "The Two Babylons", which is the source for a number of anti-Christmas talking points, doesn't connect Christmas trees to Jeremiah 10 despite spending several pages pages trying to claim they come from paganism.
The first person I have been able to find claim Jeremiah 10 refers to Christmas trees is John Quincy Adams (no apparent relation to the President), who in 1924 published "His Apocalypse", which claimed Jeremiah 10 referred to Christmas trees (it also claimed that the Book of Revelation declared the world was going to end in 1930, so it is perhaps not a source one should trust for proper exposition of the Bible). The person who seems to have popularized the Jeremiah 10 claim was Herbert Armstrong, a binitarian radio preacher who founded the Worldwide Church of God and, among other odd ideas, claimed the British were descendants of the Israelites. So not only does the idea that Jeremiah 10 had anything to do with Christmas trees not show up until the 20th century, the people it came from appear to have had a bunch of questionable (in the case of Armstrong, downright heretical) ideas.

I agree. I did not do an in depth read I browsed the linked article. What I was looking for was quotes from credible history books, theses etc. Zilch. Just some anonymous guy giving his unsupported opinion.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Why, precisely, "most Americans" should be considered correct on this is unclear... but let's take a look at the source. You don't cite a source for this, but it appears to be from here:

History of Christmas Trees - Symbolism, Traditions & Trivia | HISTORY

The history of Christmas trees goes back to the symbolic use of evergreens in ancient Egypt and Rome and continues with the German tradition of candlelit Christmas trees first brought to America in the 1800s.

www.history.com

Okay, so let's take a look at that article's claims. It claims at the start that "The history of Christmas trees goes back to the symbolic use of evergreens in ancient Egypt and Rome and continues with the German tradition of candlelit Christmas trees first brought to America in the 1800s." This is not exactly false, but highly misleading. If you look in the article, it refers to how (although without giving citations) how some pagans took plants into their homes. The problem is that the examples it cites are extremely old, with most from the centuries BC, and the latest being in the early centuries AD.

Then suddenly it cuts to the 16th century:

"Germany is credited with starting the Christmas tree tradition as we now know it in the 16th century when devout Christians brought decorated trees into their homes. Some built Christmas pyramids of wood and decorated them with evergreens and candles if wood was scarce. It is a widely held belief that Martin Luther, the 16th-century Protestant reformer, first added lighted candles to a tree. Walking toward his home one winter evening, composing a sermon, he was awed by the brilliance of stars twinkling amidst evergreens. To recapture the scene for his family, he erected a tree in the main room and wired its branches with lighted candles."

Notice that we suddenly have a 1000+ year gap between the pagan practices of bringing in trees and Christians doing it. It is extraordinarily unlikely that the German Christians in the 16th century were pouring over books about ancient pagan practices and thought "man, those pagans way back when sure had some cool ideas, let's start doing them!" So while one could say that "the history of Christmas trees goes back" to what pagans did long ago, it would only be in the sense that they happened to do some things that were a bit similar, not that there was any actual influence. Hence the article description is rather misleading.

Incidentally, I want to make a further comment on the claim that "as late as the 1840s Christmas trees were seen as pagan symbols and not accepted by most Americans.” But it does not seem like any of them drew any connection between it and Jeremiah 10... at least, none that I can find. As I noted earlier, I've been unable to find--even in works by people claiming that Christmas trees come from paganism--anyone trying to claim Jeremiah 10 refers to Christmas trees prior to the 20th century. Alexander Hislop's pseudohistorical 19th-century work "The Two Babylons", which is the source for a number of anti-Christmas talking points, doesn't connect Christmas trees to Jeremiah 10 despite spending several pages pages trying to claim they come from paganism.

The first person I have been able to find claim Jeremiah 10 refers to Christmas trees is John Quincy Adams (no apparent relation to the President), who in 1924 published "His Apocalypse", which claimed Jeremiah 10 referred to Christmas trees (it also claimed that the Book of Revelation declared the world was going to end in 1930, so it is perhaps not a source one should trust for proper exposition of the Bible). The person who seems to have popularized the Jeremiah 10 claim was Herbert Armstrong, a binitarian radio preacher who founded the Worldwide Church of God and, among other odd ideas, claimed the British were descendants of the Israelites. So not only does the idea that Jeremiah 10 had anything to do with Christmas trees not show up until the 20th century, the people it came from appear to have had a bunch of questionable (in the case of Armstrong, downright heretical) ideas.

There is nothing new under the sun. Tree worship happened in the Old Testament. The Scriptures talk about the forbidding of groves (trees that they would worship). Exodus 20 condemns not only just bowing down to idols but just making one.

Lies are promoted on Christmas. They say there were three kings or wisemen who visited Jesus while He was a baby in a manger. But it was actually the shepherds who seen Jesus as a baby. The wisemen were not kings and there was no exact number of them given. The wisemen visited Jesus when He was a child in a house. Another lie is they say Jesus is born on December 25th. This is the most unlikely time of the Incarnation of Christ. It would be too cold for shepherds to be tending their sheep at night during this time.

Christmas is a holiday celebrated by some atheists, agnostics, psychics, religionists (non-Christians), etcetera. It’s a national holiday. All united on one day. Giving gifts primarily to those who love you was a practice condemned by Jesus. What fellowship does light have with darkness?

BTW ~ I am also not into Armstrongism.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

If this is true then you should be able to post 2 or more vss. which clearly show any group worshipping trees. Tick tock I'm waiting. How can Jer 10 be used to condemn tree worship when worship of trees is not even mentioned.


We celebrate the birth of Jesus Christ. We don't ignore any evidence because no, zero, none has been presented. Reason being? You have none. You are the one ignoring evidence I have mentioned Jer 10:9 more than once and you have repeatedly ignored it because it does not fit your narrative. Prove me wrong address Jer 10:9.

You have zero biblical grounds to celebrate Jesus’ birth. Jesus nor the apostles brought up any kind of instructions to celebrate His birth. Nor do we see the apostles or early church in Scripture celebrate Jesus’ birth or celebrate Him being a baby when He was in adult human form. We are to worship in truth. How can we do that if there is no biblical mandate to do so? How many other rituals can we partake of whereby we be adding to God’s Word?

 

[prodromos]

To all:

“Most 19th-century Americans found Christmas trees an oddity. The first record of one being on display was in the 1830s by the German settlers of Pennsylvania, although trees had been a tradition in many German homes much earlier. The Pennsylvania German settlements had community trees as early as 1747. But, as late as the 1840s Christmas trees were seen as pagan symbols and not accepted by most Americans.”

Actually, the article you quoted (and didn't bother linking to), says it was the puritans who rejected Christmas trees, and indeed any kind of festive spirit such as singing Christmas carols and putting up any decorations.

 

[prodromos]

This means Jeremiah 10 can make a distinction between idol trees that are decorated with gold and silver and clothes vs the regular idols that look like animals or people.

'Idol trees' are a figment of your imagination. Your blindfold remains fixed in place.