Why I Think Christmas is Not Biblical (Please read OP before posting).

[prodromos]

Tree worship goes back to Old Testament times. There are a few scholarly articles on the topic for those who like to investigate things. Meaning, Jeremiah 10 could be used to condemn this practice along with the many verses about groves (trees).

If I ever see evidence of anyone worshipping their Christmas tree, I will be the first one to call them out. The likelihood of me coming across any such thing, however, is pretty much zero.

 

[prodromos]

I cry foul! Can you provide any credible, verifiable, historical evidence to support these false claims? I don't mean an anonymous website.

The article quoted by BH is written by a group of editors, none of whom appear to be historians

History.com Editors​

HISTORY.com works with a wide range of writers and editors to create accurate and informative content. All articles are regularly reviewed and updated by the HISTORY.com team. Articles with the “HISTORY.com Editors” byline have been written or edited by the HISTORY.com editors, including Amanda Onion, Missy Sullivan, Matt Mullen and Christian Zapata.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Why, precisely, "most Americans" should be considered correct on this is unclear... but let's take a look at the source. You don't cite a source for this, but it appears to be from here:

History of Christmas Trees - Symbolism, Traditions & Trivia | HISTORY

The history of Christmas trees goes back to the symbolic use of evergreens in ancient Egypt and Rome and continues wi...

www.history.com

Okay, so let's take a look at that article's claims. It claims at the start that "The history of Christmas trees goes back to the symbolic use of evergreens in ancient Egypt and Rome and continues with the German tradition of candlelit Christmas trees first brought to America in the 1800s." This is not exactly false, but highly misleading. If you look in the article, it refers to how (although without giving citations) how some pagans took plants into their homes. The problem is that the examples it cites are extremely old, with most from the centuries BC, and the latest being in the early centuries AD.

Then suddenly it cuts to the 16th century:

"Germany is credited with starting the Christmas tree tradition as we now know it in the 16th century when devout Christians brought decorated trees into their homes. Some built Christmas pyramids of wood and decorated them with evergreens and candles if wood was scarce. It is a widely held belief that Martin Luther, the 16th-century Protestant reformer, first added lighted candles to a tree. Walking toward his home one winter evening, composing a sermon, he was awed by the brilliance of stars twinkling amidst evergreens. To recapture the scene for his family, he erected a tree in the main room and wired its branches with lighted candles."

Notice that we suddenly have a 1000+ year gap between the pagan practices of bringing in trees and Christians doing it. It is extraordinarily unlikely that the German Christians in the 16th century were pouring over books about ancient pagan practices and thought "man, those pagans way back when sure had some cool ideas, let's start doing them!" So while one could say that "the history of Christmas trees goes back" to what pagans did long ago, it would only be in the sense that they happened to do some things that were a bit similar, not that there was any actual influence. Hence the article description is rather misleading.

Incidentally, I want to make a further comment on the claim that "as late as the 1840s Christmas trees were seen as pagan symbols and not accepted by most Americans.” But it does not seem like any of them drew any connection between it and Jeremiah 10... at least, none that I can find. As I noted earlier, I've been unable to find--even in works by people claiming that Christmas trees come from paganism--anyone trying to claim Jeremiah 10 refers to Christmas trees prior to the 20th century. Alexander Hislop's pseudohistorical 19th-century work "The Two Babylons", which is the source for a number of anti-Christmas talking points, doesn't connect Christmas trees to Jeremiah 10 despite spending several pages pages trying to claim they come from paganism.

The first person I have been able to find claim Jeremiah 10 refers to Christmas trees is John Quincy Adams (no apparent relation to the President), who in 1924 published "His Apocalypse", which claimed Jeremiah 10 referred to Christmas trees (it also claimed that the Book of Revelation declared the world was going to end in 1930, so it is perhaps not a source one should trust for proper exposition of the Bible). The person who seems to have popularized the Jeremiah 10 claim was Herbert Armstrong, a binitarian radio preacher who founded the Worldwide Church of God and, among other odd ideas, claimed the British were descendants of the Israelites. So not only does the idea that Jeremiah 10 had anything to do with Christmas trees not show up until the 20th century, the people it came from appear to have had a bunch of questionable (in the case of Armstrong, downright heretical) ideas.

Yes. I was already aware of Germany. But many Americans did not celebrate Christmas in the 1840s because they thought it was pagan. In short, can you say things have gotten better in the church or worse?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

If I ever see evidence of anyone worshipping their Christmas tree, I will be the first one to call them out. The likelihood of me coming across any such thing, however, is pretty much zero.

Idolatry has a two part instruction in Exodus 20.

Part 1. Don’t make the idol, meaning, you are not to possess it.

Part 2. Don’t bow down to it.

It’s the first part instruction that is the problem. I mean even there was a remote chance it could be read that trees that are decorated was in view of idols, would not the safer play be to avoid them instead of taking the risk in being wrong? Then there are all the other problems, as well.

 

[The Liturgist]

Tree worship goes back to Old Testament times. There are a few scholarly articles on the topic for those who like to investigate things. Meaning, Jeremiah 10 could be used to condemn this practice along with the many verses about groves (trees).

A grove is a multitude of trees. You cannot use the word grove to refer to an individual tree. It is directly contradictory.

 

[The Liturgist]

Actually, the article you quoted (and didn't bother linking to), says it was the puritans who rejected Christmas trees, and indeed any kind of festive spirit such as singing Christmas carols and putting up any decorations.

Indeed, and the Puritans were hypocrites who burned innocent women at the state based on people having dreams that they were witches, and then a hundred years later decided they were sick of the whole Christian thing and became Unitarian. Given my close connections to Congregationalism I have a particular dislike for Puritanism and I find it ironic that the first Puritan congregations in America, including the first congregation in Boston and also our oldest surviving church building, the Old Ship Church in Rhode Island, all became Unitarian.

Fortunately there were Congregationalists who moved in a more orthodox manner, embraced Christmas, and today consist of churches like the Park Street Church in Boston, which is one of the best traditional Protestant churches left in a large city in the United States in terms of their worship practices, doctrine, and so on. They could easily have wound up under the control of the ultra liberal United Church of Christ or under the control of some radical Calvinist group like 9Marks, but instead are just a normal church; indeed had the Protestant church I had grown up in stayed the way Park Street Church currently is, I would not have left, but then I would have missed out on the beauty of Eastern Orthodoxy, but still I resent having been denied access by a progression of liberal and anti-traditional evangelical fundamentalist clergy to the beautiful liturgical worship in which I initially was raised. Thus part of the appeal of our Orthodox tradition for me is how resistant the Orthodox church is to destructive changes to the liturgy and also the extent to which priests are obliged to follow the rules when it comes to the worship services of the church, rather than making up their own thing.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

A grove is a multitude of trees. You cannot use the word grove to refer to an individual tree. It is directly contradictory.

The Bible has homonyms within it.
So in some cases that may be true and in other cases this would not be true.

Example, The Hebrew word “’eshel” (Strong’s #H815), is a tamarisk or myrica tree [Tamarix orientalis]. It was rendered “tree” in 1 Samuel 22:6 and 1 Samuel 31:13.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Indeed, and the Puritans were hypocrites who burned innocent women at the state based on people having dreams that they were witches, and then a hundred years later decided they were sick of the whole Christian thing and became Unitarian. Given my close connections to Congregationalism I have a particular dislike for Puritanism and I find it ironic that the first Puritan congregations in America, including the first congregation in Boston and also our oldest surviving church building, the Old Ship Church in Rhode Island, all became Unitarian.

Fortunately there were Congregationalists who moved in a more orthodox manner, embraced Christmas, and today consist of churches like the Park Street Church in Boston, which is one of the best traditional Protestant churches left in a large city in the United States in terms of their worship practices, doctrine, and so on. They could easily have wound up under the control of the ultra liberal United Church of Christ or under the control of some radical Calvinist group like 9Marks, but instead are just a normal church; indeed had the Protestant church I had grown up in stayed the way Park Street Church currently is, I would not have left, but then I would have missed out on the beauty of Eastern Orthodoxy, but still I resent having been denied access by a progression of liberal and anti-traditional evangelical fundamentalist clergy to the beautiful liturgical worship in which I initially was raised. Thus part of the appeal of our Orthodox tradition for me is how resistant the Orthodox church is to destructive changes to the liturgy and also the extent to which priests are obliged to follow the rules when it comes to the worship services of the church, rather than making up their own thing.

I am no fan of Calvinism, either. I only find a common ground with them with some of them on the Bible issue or when it comes to Cessationism. But yeah, I disagree with all five points and I don’t like some of their history. My point is that more Americans were Bible believers that stuck by many traditional teachings of God’s Word. While not all Christians were perfect back then, things are a lot worse now. We are now in the laodicean age.

 

[JSRG]

There is nothing new under the sun. Tree worship happened in the Old Testament. The Scriptures talk about the forbidding of groves (trees that they would worship). Exodus 20 condemns not only just bowing down to idols but just making one.

It has already been argued that the "groves" are actually groups of Ashera poles. But even accepting that groves (as in a group of trees) is a correct translation, a grove is inherently a group of trees, not a single tree.

Lies are promoted on Christmas. They say there were three kings or wisemen who visited Jesus while He was a baby in a manger. But it was actually the shepherds who seen Jesus as a baby. The wisemen were not kings and there was no exact number of them given. The wisemen visited Jesus when He was a child in a house.

More of a simplification for aesthetic purposes than a lie. A single nativity scene is preferable to splitting it up into two. But even if we grant this as a problem, this isn't an argument to not celebrate the holiday, but to celebrate the holiday while not giving people an incorrect impression of these events.

Another lie is they say Jesus is born on December 25th. This is the most unlikely time of the Incarnation of Christ. It would be too cold for shepherds to be tending their sheep at night during this time.

Even in cold areas, sometimes you get unusually warm days, so it isn't impossible for this to have been such a day, or even just a warmer winter in general. It's not like the area is known for extremely cold weather or anything, even in winter; the coldest month in Jerusalem is January at an average of 46Fº/8ºC, which isn't that cold.

But even on a "typical" weather, it hardly seems impossible. From page 328 of "Handbook of Biblical Chronology" by Jack Finegan (2015):

"As to objection to a wintertime date on the supposition that the shepherds would not have been at this time "out in the field, keeping watch over their flock by night" (Luke 2:2), William Hendriksen quotes a letter dated Jan 16, 1967, received from the New Testament scholar Harry Mulder, then teaching in Beirut, in which the latter tells of being in Shepherd Field at Bethlehem on the just-passed Christmas Eve, and says: “Right near us a few flocks of sheep were nestled. Even the lambs were not lacking. . . . It is therefore definitely not impossible that the Lord Jesus was born in December""

His citation is "William Hendriksen, Matthew (NTC; Grand Rapids: Baker, 1973), 1:182". I considered including what he says there, but unfortunately, it's a bit long, and I didn't want to have to manually type it all up. Still, one may read the applicable page of the work for free here, though it may require a free account on archive.org to read:

Exposition of the gospel according to Matthew : Hendriksen, William, 1900- : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

viii, 1015 p. ; 24 cm

archive.org

So this seems to indicate that, no, it would not have been impossible for shepherds to be tending their sheep at night during this time. Unless the claim is that the sheep would be okay, but not the shepherds... but shepherds can wear warm clothes.

(in the interests of disclosure, I should admit that I mostly took the talking points in this portion of my reply from this page. However, as my links show, I made sure to verify the claims--particularly the quotation from Finegan--that I took from it)

Christmas is a holiday celebrated by some atheists, agnostics, psychics, religionists (non-Christians), etcetera. It’s a national holiday. All united on one day.

The reason non-Christians "celebrate" Christmas is because it was an extremely popular Christian holiday and they wanted to keep doing it even after quitting Christianity (and the fact that businesses want to try to sell their stuff to the non-Christian population, so they try to play down the religious aspect). But all this came only after Christmas was a clearly Christian holiday. It doesn't make much sense to try to say "well, these other guys later on tried to make it more secular" as a strike against it. But supposing it somehow is, do you therefore affirm that there was no problem whatsoever in celebrating Christmas in the past, before it became more secularized?

Giving gifts primarily to those who love you was a practice condemned by Jesus. What fellowship does light have with darkness?

The amount of money I spent on Christmas presents to family members last year was quite small compared to what I gave to charities and church.

But someone might say that maybe that's not the case for other people. While I don't have statistics on how much everyone else spends on Christmas presents compared to their charitable donations, I will note that we see a considerable increase in charitable donations around Christmas; this tells me that "more than 3 in 5 Americans (63 percent) typically donate to an organization or charitable cause in the last two weeks of the year." And according to this, nonprofits get about 26% of their yearly charitable donations in December.

BTW ~ I am also not into Armstrongism.

I never accused you of doing so. But you are using a biblical interpretation that appears to have been popularized by Armstrongism. My point is that the earliest people I can find who thought Jeremiah 10 was a warning against Christmas trees were in the 20th century and were people with very weird ideas (again, the earliest person I found it said it in a book where they said the world would come to an end in 1930 according to their interpretation of Revelation). If anyone can find someone who applied Jeremiah 10 to Christmas trees prior to what I have found, by all means tell me.

 

[prodromos]

There is nothing new under the sun. Tree worship happened in the Old Testament. The Scriptures talk about the forbidding of groves (trees that they would worship). Exodus 20 condemns not only just bowing down to idols but just making one.

Nowhere in the Scriptures does it say that the pagans worshipped the trees in the groves they planted. That is something you have made up in order to support your agenda.

Lies are promoted on Christmas. They say there were three kings or wisemen who visited Jesus while He was a baby in a manger. But it was actually the shepherds who seen Jesus as a baby.

Jesus was still an infant when the wise men came to see him

The wisemen were not kings and there was no exact number of them given. The wisemen visited Jesus when He was a child in a house.

Their names were Gaspar, Melchior, and Balthasar. They weren't recorded in Scripture but their names have been passed down in the Church. Nativity scenes pack a number of historical events over a period of months into a single picture. The focus of all is Christ.

Another lie is they say Jesus is born on December 25th. This is the most unlikely time of the Incarnation of Christ. It would be too cold for shepherds to to tending their sheep at night during this time.

You are an expert on sheep herding now are you?

Christmas is a holiday celebrated by some atheists, agnostics, psychics, religionists (non-Christians), etcetera. It’s a national holiday. All united on one day. Giving gifts primarily to those who love you was a practice condemned by Jesus. What fellowship does light have with darkness?

Christians are celebrating the Nativity of Christ. What non-christians do on this day is their business. There is no fellowship of light with darkness.

BTW ~ I am also not into Armstrongism.

You are guilty by association.

 

[prodromos]

Yes. I was already aware of Germany. But many Americans did not celebrate Christmas in the 1840s because they thought it was pagan.

The Puritans, but I haven't seen evidence that they thought it was pagan, rather they were against any kind of festivity. They still celebrated Christmas though, so that's another strike against you.

In short, can you say things have gotten better in the church or worse?

Your complaint focuses on what people outside the Church do, which has nothing to do with how things are in the Church.

 

[prodromos]

Idolatry has a two part instruction in Exodus 20.

Part 1. Don’t make the idol, meaning, you are not to possess it.

Trees are trees. They are not idols.

Part 2. Don’t bow down to it.

Never seen anyone bow down to a tree.

It’s the first part instruction that is the problem. I mean even there was a remote chance it could be read that trees that are decorated was in view of idols, would not the safer play be to avoid them instead of taking the risk in being wrong?

There isn't even a remote chance that trees were ever used as idols. This is simply something you have imagined.

Then there are all the other problems, as well.

In your febrile imagination.

 

[Strong in Him]

To all:

“Most 19th-century Americans found Christmas trees an oddity. The first record of one being on display was in the 1830s by the German settlers of Pennsylvania, although trees had been a tradition in many German homes much earlier. The Pennsylvania German settlements had community trees as early as 1747. But, as late as the 1840s Christmas trees were seen as pagan symbols and not accepted by most Americans.”

A "pagan symbol" doesn't mean it is an idol, nor that anyone worships it.

 

[Strong in Him]

Tree worship goes back to Old Testament times. There are a few scholarly articles on the topic for those who like to investigate things.

In other words; "here's a statement. I'm not going to prove it; do your own research if you are so inclined."

 

[Strong in Him]

Of course, those who have a motivation in celebrating Christmas are not going to see such things of course. They will take any such evidence and either ignore it or twist it.

When someone accuses me, or several of us, of twisting Scriptures it means they are losing the argument and have to resort to insults.

 

[Strong in Him]

You have zero biblical grounds to celebrate Jesus’ birth.

You have zero biblical grounds for using a computer.
But of course, that is "different".

 

[The Liturgist]

A "pagan symbol" doesn't mean it is an idol, nor that anyone worships it.

Indeed, the horns of goats, sheep and cattle are well known Pagan symbols, but the horn of the ram, the shofar trumpet, is also a symbol of Judaism, yet if we should agree with the argument we have been presented with, logically we should also have to shun the husbandry and consumption of cattle, sheep and goats owing to the Pagan symbolism they have.

 

[Strong in Him]

There is nothing new under the sun. Tree worship happened in the Old Testament.

Other nations MAY have worshipped trees; that does not mean that God's people did, nor that God was happy for anyone to do so.

The Scriptures talk about the forbidding of groves (trees that they would worship).

Trees are not idols in themselves.
Some people - usually from other nations - would cut trees down and make idols from the wood. THAT was what was wrong.
For the third time of asking, was Solomon wrong when he had trees cut down, made items for the temple and covered them with gold? Was Noah sinning when he made the ark from wood? Wad Moses sinning when he made the tabernacle, ark of the Covenant and other items from wood?

Exodus 20 condemns not only just bowing down to idols but just making one.

A tree is an idol in no one's mind except yours.

Lies are promoted on Christmas. They say there were three kings or wisemen who visited Jesus while He was a baby in a manger. But it was actually the shepherds who seen Jesus as a baby. The wisemen were not kings and there was no exact number of them given. The wisemen visited Jesus when He was a child in a house.

Which is why churches celebrate Epiphany on Jan 6th.

Another lie is they say Jesus is born on December 25th.

"THEY say"? Who are "they"?
I have never heard any preacher declare that Christ was definitely born on Dec 25th and it is false to believe otherwise. That is the date that has been chosen to commemorate Christ's birth.

I doubt very much that God will demand to know why his Son's birth was celebrated on the "wrong day". He may want you know why people didn't celebrate it at all, but even that's not too bad. What IS wrong is criticising fellow Christians who do want to celebrate the birth of the Son of God, accusing them of twisting, or ignoring, Scripture.

Christmas is a holiday celebrated by some atheists, agnostics, psychics, religionists (non-Christians), etcetera.

And Christians.

Giving gifts primarily to those who love you was a practice condemned by Jesus.

Jesus said we can't give gifts to people to show we love them?? Where did he say that?
And what do you think he was doing when he healed people and gave the gift of sight, hearing, cleansing from leprosy?

What fellowship does light have with darkness?

No one thinks we are fellowshipping with darkness, except you.

Why do you post on these forums?
Don't you know that non Christians, atheists and some from Christian cults post on here too? What fellowship does light have with darkness? Why are you sharing a forum with non Christians?
Why do you go to the shops, to work, to the library or wherever? Don't you know that non Christians, atheists, people from other religions go to the same place as you - and may work in the same office as you? What fellowship does light have with darkness? Don't you think you should stop doing all these things that non Christians do? Heavens, they even breathe the same air as you do. If that doesn't unite you with unbelievers, what does?

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

Actually, the article you quoted (and didn't bother linking to), says it was the puritans who rejected Christmas trees, and indeed any kind of festive spirit such as singing Christmas carols and putting up any decorations.

Christmas trees have as much to do with the Nativity as egg-laying bunnies have to do with Pascha...

 

[The Liturgist]

Christmas trees have as much to do with the Nativity as egg-laying bunnies have to do with Pascha...

That’s true, but many Orthodox Christians including myself like both; in my childhood they helped me appreciate the solemnity of those occasions.