Hamas-Israel News Thread

[wing2000]

People pretending that if Israel kills one person who isn't Hamas suddenly makes them war criminals are only fooling themselves.

I think most understand civilians will die in a war zone. At issue, at least in my mind, is whether it's in Israel's best interest to use ariel bombing to take out a Hamas leader, knowing that dozens (or more) people will be taken out. From the photos, its apparent that heavy bombs were used with maximum effect on the area. No doubt the target intentionally chose one of the most densly populated areas of Gaza as a means of protection or as bait to Israel to bomb the area.
Were there other methods that could have been used to take out the target?
What is the target decision making process within the IDF?

 

[wing2000]

More details from the IDF....

The Israel Defense Forces targeted and killed a senior Hamas commander, Ibrahim Biari, said IDF spokesman Lt. Col. Richard Hecht.
Soldiers on the ground and in an IDF aircraft were used in the offensive, the IDF said, adding that a number of Hamas militants were killed and that tunnel entrances, weapons and military equipment were destroyed.

But the attack also appears to have had a far wider, and fatal, impact on civilians. Exact figures on the number of dead and injured were not immediately clear in the aftermath of the strikes, but footage of the scene streamed by Al Jazeera showed dozens of civilians digging through the rubble to reach trapped people.

Asked on CNN by Wolf Blitzer about why the IDF pressed ahead with the attack even though it was aware of the large civilian population in the area, Hecht said it was a “very complicated battle space” and that Biari, the Hamas commander, “killed many, many Israelis.”
“But you know that there are a lot of refugees, a lot of innocent civilians, men, women and children in that refugee camp as well, right?” Blitzer asked Hecht.

“This is the tragedy of war, Wolf,” Hecht said.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/10/31/israel-war-hamas-gaza-news-palestine/#link-IPOU4KSAKRFMNETNYO55EQRIPU

 

[Chesterton]

I also think it's funny that a lot of the people trying to claim Israel is breaking some imaginary rules are the same ones that probably supported the violence in the streets in 2020. I say Israel is currently just engaged in a "mostly peaceful protest" of Hamas.

 

[Vanellus]

Why not try actually responding to questions in order to further the discussion. I am quite willing to answer your questions if you would only deign to answer mine. Try it; it actually advances the conversation.

Your question was directed at wing2000 not me. Wing2000 had written:

"You seem to be suggesting that no matter what Israel does, the entire responsibility lies with Hamas? If Isreal were to drop a cluster bombs or deploy chemical weapons, would that be Hamas' responsibility?"

to which you wrote:
"Uhh, excuse me but didn't Hamas attack and murder over 1400 Israeli citizens as well as KIDNAP 200+ others? Do you think the responsibility lies with Israel? You would have a far better argument had Hamas attacked Israeli soldiers instead of a cowardly attack on civilians. At least soldiers could fight back." (your "uhh excuse me" is superfluous)

Wing2000 was replying to Landon Caeli who had agreed with JosephZ that "Bombing refugee camps is just disgusting;" is horrible but then amazingly blamed Hamas when of course it is Israel and not Hamas who had bombed the refugee camp. Israel then made the usual claim (without evidence) that it was being used by Hamas. Has it not occurred to you that there doesn't seem to be a square inch of Gaza that isn't being used by Hamas? I believe that Israel is using the Oct 7 attack to kill as many Gazans as possible before being reined in by Biden. Israel bears sole responsibility for this attack on the densely populated refugee camp.

 

[Ana the Ist]

"Israel has imposed a total and comprehensive blockade on the Gaza Strip. Israeli Defense Minister Yoav Gallant spoke of a total siege, in which Gaza would be cut off from electricity, water, food and fuel supplies. Israeli human rights organization B'Tselem accuses Israel of war crimes, due to the extent of the airstrikes and the blockade. Humanitarian aid organization Doctors Without Borders speaks of a collective punishment of Gaza that contravenes international law."

Israel, Gaza: What are the rules of international law? – DW – 10/22/2023

Israel is retaliating after the Hamas terrorist attacks with massive bombings, a total blockade of the Gaza Strip and possibly a ground offensive. What is covered by international law — and what constitutes a war crime?

www.dw.com

The blockade is to prevent enemy terrorists from evacuating. It's good to see the UN investigating possible Israeli war crimes and confirming Palestinian war crimes that have already been committed.

I guess as of now we can say Israel hasn't committed any war crimes.

 

[BPPLEE]

So you think I WANT the IDF to kill all the babies in Gaza? Another very bizarre take.

How much do you have to hate a person to cut the baby out of a pregnant woman then kill them both? To put a baby in an oven? To behead children and burn some alive?
And to wear cameras and record the horrific things you are doing?
This is the enemy they are dealing with

 

[essentialsaltes]

More details from the IDF....

The Israel Defense Forces targeted and killed a senior Hamas commander, Ibrahim Biari, said IDF spokesman Lt. Col. Richard Hecht.
Soldiers on the ground and in an IDF aircraft were used in the offensive, the IDF said, adding that a number of Hamas militants were killed and that tunnel entrances, weapons and military equipment were destroyed.

“Children were carrying other injured children and running, with grey dust filling the air. Bodies were hanging on the rubble, many of them unrecognized. Some were bleeding and others were burnt,” Al Aswad told CNN by telephone.

At the Indonesian hospital, the nearest major medical facility to Jabalya, videos showed a long line of bodies lying on the floor of the hospital as well as large numbers of wounded people, including children, as doctors rushed to treat their injuries.

Many of the injured could be seen receiving treatment on the floor because of the hospital’s overcrowded conditions. Hospital head Dr. Atef al-Kalhout estimated that scores had been killed in the blast.

Saudi Arabia, Iran, Jordan and Egypt have also condemned the strike, with Egypt accusing Israel of breaking international law with what it said was the “inhuman” targeting of a residential area. “Egypt considered this as a new flagrant violation by the Israeli forces against the provisions of international law and international humanitarian law,” the ministry said.

When pressed multiple times throughout a White House briefing on the Jabalya strike and on whether Israel is doing enough to protect Palestinian civilians, National Security Council spokesman John Kirby said the US has “indications they are trying.”

“We’re not going to react to every event in real time, but we’ve certainly recognized that civilians have been hurt,” he said.

--
Elsewhere:
"Al Jazeera denounces the Israeli massacre that killed 19 family members of Al Jazeera’s SNG engineer Mohamed Abu Al-Qumsan in Gaza's Jabalia refugee camp."

 

[BPPLEE]

I’m hearing reports that there are 500 US citizens trapped in Gaza or being held hostage

 

[Ana the Ist]

I think most understand civilians will die in a war zone. At issue, at least in my mind, is whether it's in Israel's best interest to use ariel bombing to take out a Hamas leader, knowing that dozens (or more) people will be taken out.

It's a fair question...but I'm not sure that restraint in warfare isn't the exact reason we've seen the emergence of paramilitary terrorist groups since the 1950s on.

They started popping up in earnest around thatvtime because they could engage in small scale warfare against larger more powerful nations....and the political leaders of those nations could deny any responsibility for these groups and avoid large scale warfare with a more dangerous military as a result.

Terrorist groups typically use the various laws of warfare to their advantage....and I have to wonder if we were still in a total war mindset that held the entirety of a nation responsible for such actions, if these terrorist groups would exist at all.

From the photos, its apparent that heavy bombs were used with maximum effect on the area. No doubt the target intentionally chose one of the most densly populated areas of Gaza as a means of protection or as bait to Israel to bomb the area.

Right.

Were there other methods that could have been used to take out the target?
What is the target decision making process within the IDF?

I wish I could tell you. My guess is that a ground invasion involving high casualties is the other option but it risks no less loss of life for civilians who remain in the area.

 

[civilwarbuff]

Your question was directed at wing2000 not me. Wing2000 had written:

"You seem to be suggesting that no matter what Israel does, the entire responsibility lies with Hamas? If Isreal were to drop a cluster bombs or deploy chemical weapons, would that be Hamas' responsibility?"

to which you wrote:
"Uhh, excuse me but didn't Hamas attack and murder over 1400 Israeli citizens as well as KIDNAP 200+ others? Do you think the responsibility lies with Israel? You would have a far better argument had Hamas attacked Israeli soldiers instead of a cowardly attack on civilians. At least soldiers could fight back." (your "uhh excuse me" is superfluous)

Wing2000 was replying to Landon Caeli who had agreed with JosephZ that "Bombing refugee camps is just disgusting;" is horrible but then amazingly blamed Hamas when of course it is Israel and not Hamas who had bombed the refugee camp. Israel then made the usual claim (without evidence) that it was being used by Hamas. Has it not occurred to you that there doesn't seem to be a square inch of Gaza that isn't being used by Hamas? I believe that Israel is using the Oct 7 attack to kill as many Gazans as possible before being reined in by Biden. Israel bears sole responsibility for this attack on the densely populated refugee camp.

My apologies, that comment was not directed to you.....not sure how I did that.

I believe that Israel is using the Oct 7 attack to kill as many Gazans

If you substitute Hamas for Gazans I would agree 100%.

Israel bears sole responsibility for this attack on the densely populated refugee camp.

I will wait for more info before I come to any conclusion.

 

[Ana the Ist]

“Children were carrying other injured children and running, with grey dust filling the air. Bodies were hanging on the rubble, many of them unrecognized. Some were bleeding and others were burnt,” Al Aswad told CNN by telephone.

At the Indonesian hospital, the nearest major medical facility to Jabalya, videos showed a long line of bodies lying on the floor of the hospital as well as large numbers of wounded people, including children, as doctors rushed to treat their injuries.

Many of the injured could be seen receiving treatment on the floor because of the hospital’s overcrowded conditions. Hospital head Dr. Atef al-Kalhout estimated that scores had been killed in the blast.

Saudi Arabia, Iran, Jordan and Egypt have also condemned the strike, with Egypt accusing Israel of breaking international law with what it said was the “inhuman” targeting of a residential area. “Egypt considered this as a new flagrant violation by the Israeli forces against the provisions of international law and international humanitarian law,” the ministry said.

When pressed multiple times throughout a White House briefing on the Jabalya strike and on whether Israel is doing enough to protect Palestinian civilians, National Security Council spokesman John Kirby said the US has “indications they are trying.”

“We’re not going to react to every event in real time, but we’ve certainly recognized that civilians have been hurt,” he said.

Saudi Arabia, Iran, Jordan and Egypt are regular human rights abusers.

Perhaps there's some truth to what they are claiming....but I'm not really interested in the opinions of people who murder journalists, stone women to death, and torture prisoners.

I'd be more inclined to consider the opinions of people who aren't regularly violating human rights themselves.

 

[Wings like Eagles]

Hamas Official Mousa Abu Marzouk: The Tunnels In Gaza Were Built To Protect Hamas Fighters, Not Civilians; Protecting Gaza Civilians Is The Responsibility Of The U.N. And Israel​

Hamas Official Mousa Abu Marzouk: The Tunnels In Gaza Were Built To Protect Hamas Fighters, Not Civilians; Protecting Gaza Civilians Is The Responsibility Of The U.N. And Israel

Mousa Abu Marzouk, a member of the Hamas Political Bureau said in an October 27, 2023 interview that aired on Russia Today TV that the tunnels in Gaza were built to protect Hams fighters from airstrikes, not civilians. He added that Hamas fights Israel from within the tunnels. Abu Marzouq added...

www.memri.org

 

[civilwarbuff]

I’m hearing reports that there are 500 US citizens trapped in Gaza or being held hostage

First I have heard. Is there a source for that?

 

[RDKirk]

First I have heard. Is there a source for that?

From what I've heard, there are still fewer than 250 Israeli hostages being held, so I can't hold stock in their being 500 American hostages. Even if all the Israelis had dual citizenship...that number is obviously 'way too high.

 

[essentialsaltes]

'Remember what Amalek has done to you': Netanyahu compares Hamas to rival of the Israelites​

Critics are accusing Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu of using "genocidal" language in a dramatic speech on Israel's war with Hamas in which he invoked the name of an ancient enemy of the Israelites from the Bible.

 

[essentialsaltes]

From what I've heard, there are still fewer than 250 Israeli hostages being held, so I can't hold stock in their being 500 American hostages.

They are (mostly) not hostages. I think Blinken recently said there are 400 Americans that were either living in or visiting Gaza. Neither Israel nor Egypt is letting anybody out of Gaza.

 

[BPPLEE]

First I have heard. Is there a source for that?

Senator Marsha Blackburn posted it on Twitter she says they are not being allowed to leave

 

[Robban]

'Remember what Amalek has done to you': Netanyahu compares Hamas to rival of the Israelites​

Critics are accusing Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu of using "genocidal" language in a dramatic speech on Israel's war with Hamas in which he invoked the name of an ancient enemy of the Israelites from the Bible.

Deuteronomy 25:17-19
The Amalakites are long gone but their spirit lives on.
One descendent was Haman,
Esther 3:8-9

 

[JosephZ]

Senator Marsha Blackburn posted it on Twitter

The false claim that 500 Americans are being held hostage in Gaza can likely be traced to Mario Nawfal, an X user who often goes viral with sensationalist claims on the social media platform.

“JUST IN: The White House admitted Hamas is holding nearly 500 Americans hostage in Gaza. Via: U.S. Senator Marsha Blackburn of Tennessee,” Nawfal tweeted on Tuesday.

But Blackburn is incorrect about the number of hostages being held by Hamas. The Israel Defense Forces have said 230 people are being held by Hamas in Gaza, according to the latest figures released by the IDF. And obviously not every one of those 230 people are Americans.

The Washington Post reported on October 20 that about 500 Americans were stuck in Gaza, unable to leave since nobody is allowed to leave the territory right now.

Why can’t Americans leave Gaza? According to the White House, Hamas is stopping people from leaving via the Rafah crossing from Gaza into Egypt. But journalists report that’s not the case and that Israel and Egypt are the ones who seem to be holding up the opening of the border crossing.

“Of the many civilians The Washington Post has contacted inside Gaza who are waiting to leave, none has said that Hamas or anyone else has physically prevented them from crossing. But the border gate is not operational,” the Washington Post reported on October 28.

Viral Claim Hamas Holding 500 Americans Hostage In Gaza Isn’t True

Did you see a claim on social media this week that Hamas is holding 500 Americans hostage in Gaza? It’s gone viral, but it’s simply not true.

www.forbes.com

 

[BPPLEE]

'Remember what Amalek has done to you': Netanyahu compares Hamas to rival of the Israelites​

Critics are accusing Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu of using "genocidal" language in a dramatic speech on Israel's war with Hamas in which he invoked the name of an ancient enemy of the Israelites from the Bible.

Hamas is not a race of people wiping them out would not be genocide