Hamas-Israel News Thread

[Vanellus]

You've objected to everything they have done.

What would be an acceptable response to October 7th in your mind?

They haven't exhausted all the possibilities. Acting within international law would make a nice change and not lying about Hamas using hospitals.

 

[civilwarbuff]

You seem to be suggesting that no matter what Israel does, the entire responsibility lies with Hamas?

Uhh, excuse me but didn't Hamas attack and murder over 1400 Israeli citizens as well as KIDNAP 200+ others? Do you think the responsibility lies with Israel? You would have a far better argument had Hamas attacked Israeli soldiers instead of a cowardly attack on civilians. At least soldiers could fight back.

 

[Vanellus]

It has complete relevance. Palestinians never denied they were subject to Ottoman rule. Most of the land in Palestine was officially owned by Ottomans who lived nowhere near Palestine.

This is not as simple as you think

Ottoman archives help Palestinians reclaim their land

Turkish officials had announced as early as 2015 that they were handing Ottoman documents to the Palestinians to help them claim ownership of properties taken over by Israel. Daily Sabah, a pro-government paper, quoted Kudret Bulbul, head of the Turks Abroad and Related Communities Directorate of the Prime Ministry between 2014-2016, as saying that the archives included “land registers, sultans' decrees and historical documents proving the property ownership of Palestinians in Jerusalem and the Palestinian territories.” In 2018, a full electronic archive of 140,000 documents was available, spanning over 400 years of Ottoman rule in Palestinian lands.

 

[Vanellus]

Uhh, excuse me but didn't Hamas attack and murder over 1400 Israeli citizens as well as KIDNAP 200+ others? Do you think the responsibility lies with Israel? You would have a far better argument had Hamas attacked Israeli soldiers instead of a cowardly attack on civilians. At least soldiers could fight back.

Do all the Palestinians killed by Israelis since 1948 (far more than Israelis killed by Palestinians) count for anything? Do you think they are irrelevant?
Database on fatalities and house demolitions
(data from the 2nd Intifada onwards)

 

[civilwarbuff]

They continue to use human shields today, including women and children. The story from 2005 was to show how the IDF opposed a ban on using human shields.

Just curious. Has Hamas ever opposed a ban by their gov't/courts to using human shields? What's that you say? Hamas gov't. has never issued a ban on using human shields? Huh, go figger. Guess that's one of the big differences between Hamas and Israel; between authoritarianism and democracy; between evil and not evil.

 

[civilwarbuff]

Civilized countries must be sensitive to this and loudly against it.

Is this your agreement that Hamas is not civilized?

 

[civilwarbuff]

Do all the Palestinians killed by Israelis since 1948 (far more than Israelis killed by Palestinians) count for anything? Do you think they are irrelevant?
Database on fatalities and house demolitions
(data from the 2nd Intifada onwards)

Why not try actually responding to questions in order to further the discussion. I am quite willing to answer your questions if you would only deign to answer mine. Try it; it actually advances the conversation.

 

[JosephZ]

Just curious. Has Hamas ever opposed a ban by their gov't/courts to using human shields? What's that you say? Hamas gov't. has never issued a ban on using human shields? Huh, go figger. Guess that's one of the big differences between Hamas and Israel; between authoritarianism and democracy; between evil and not evil.

Personally, I feel both Hamas and the IDF are morally wrong for using human shields. The difference is that Hamas is a terrorist group, and evil acts are expected from terrorist groups. The IDF, on the other hand, is a defense force of a nation-state and therefore should have higher standards than terrorists.

 

[Always in His Presence]

Its not complete because you picked few things. Its not balanced because you point only at Hamas, while there are also Palestinians and Jews.

You stated you have no idea how to combat the tunnels and have not shown any one time Hamas tried diplomatic avenues and you believe I have an unbalanced view?

For decades the Palestinians and their ruling class Hamas has openly called not for land, but the elimination of the Jews.
For decades the Palestinians and their ruling class Hamas has turned down land for peace agreements.
For decades the Palestinians and their ruling class Hamas has openly called for warfare on the Jews
For decades the Palestinians and their ruling class Hamas has allowed military installations under Hospital, Schools and Apartment buildings in the heart of their own cities.
For decades the Palestinians and their ruling class Hamas has dug hundreds of miles of tunnels under civilians area's/
For decades the Palestinians and their ruling class Hamas has made hatred of the Jews part of their school and religious instruction curriculum.

The EU spends millions for water pipelines in the Palestinian territory and they dig them up and turn them into rocket launchers, then cry that they have no water.


.

 

[trophy33]

Is this your agreement that Hamas is not civilized?

Hamas is not a country. The context of my post was rather USA, EU and broadly United Nations. Any country that is civilized should not pick sides, but instead support what is good and being strongly against what is evil. Only this "strategy" will force any side of a conflict to keep the international rules.

Unconditional support leads to breaking the rules.

 

[trophy33]

You stated you have no idea how to combat the tunnels and have not shown any one time Hamas tried diplomatic avenues and you believe I have an unbalanced view?

For decades the Palestinians and their ruling class Hamas has openly called not for land, but the elimination of the Jews.
For decades the Palestinians and their ruling class Hamas has turned down land for peace agreements.
For decades the Palestinians and their ruling class Hamas has openly called for warfare on the Jews
For decades the Palestinians and their ruling class Hamas has allowed military installations under Hospital, Schools and Apartment buildings in the heart of their own cities.
For decades the Palestinians and their ruling class Hamas has dug hundreds of miles of tunnels under civilians area's/
For decades the Palestinians and their ruling class Hamas has made hatred of the Jews part of their school and religious instruction curriculum.

The EU spends millions for water pipelines in the Palestinian territory and they dig them up and turn them into rocket launchers, then cry that they have no water.


.

Your post is only about Palestinians, ie not balanced at all.

 

[rjs330]

know kids the Israelis have been bombing us for years now. And we've have people kidnapped, tortured and murdered and raped by Israelis. But not all Israelis do that. Just some of them? "

Turn about is fair play.

Actually it's not. Because one is about defending ones self from and enemy who is openly attacking you and has a stated and repeated announcement of wanting and trying to wipe you off the face of the earth. And the the other is about a direct training to hate and desire to wipe the group off the face of the planet just cause they are Jews.

Not even remotely the same.

As far as the rest is concerned it's one thing to use enhanced interrogation techniques against suspected terrorists and their sympathizers and torturing innocent civilians who just happen to be if the race you hate.

Also I don't believe in war that you are remotely obligated to "be careful" about killing civilians who look exactly like the enemy combatants. It's up to the ENEMY COMBATANTS to look like COMBATANTS and not civilians.

In this case it's Hamas' responsibility to protect their own civilians. It's the Israelis responsibility to protect theirs. Hamas is directly responsible to ensure their civilians are protected. But that's not what they do. They WANT their civilians to be in the way. They WANT their civilians to die for their cause. They are the ones Throwing their own people in front of the bombs.

You know how this stops? Hamas surrenders. It stops today as soon as Hamas surrenders to the Israelis.

And it's the west who is falling for this. The West is playing directly into Hamas' hands. Hamas is laughing at the west. This is what they want. They want the weather ringing their collective hands and blaming Jews for their own actions. And by the weata actions they and all those who are saying this are Hamas supporters unwittingly or not. And many are unwittingly supporting Hamas but others are not so naive. They are just anti-Semetics.

 

[rjs330]

I do not know what are best solutions for this complex situation. Both sides are doing wrong things and UN is too weak to enforce anything in the area.

I find it very interesting that everyone who is condemning Israel for their actions have no idea what to do.

 

[civilwarbuff]

Hamas is not a country.

You are right, they are not. But Palestine is recognized as a de-facto state by the UN as a 'non-member observer status' like the Vatican enjoys. So, tell me what so-called state tolerates a terrorist organization to operate on their 'soil' (unless, of course, they happen to support its aims)?

 

[Always in His Presence]

Your post is only about Palestinians, ie not balanced at all.

You have spent a majority of time addressing Israel almost exclusively . That is not balanced either.

 

[trophy33]

You have spent a majority of time addressing Israel almost exclusively . That is not balanced either.

As a reaction to posts that seem to claim (almost fanatically) that Israel does nothing wrong. Thats a different context.

 

[trophy33]

You are right, they are not. But Palestine is recognized as a de-facto state by the UN as a 'non-member observer status' like the Vatican enjoys. So, tell me what so-called state tolerates a terrorist organization to operate on their 'soil' (unless, of course, they happen to support its aims)?

I do not understand what you are trying to ask or say or how this relates to my post from which you took just one sentence, but is about something quite different.

 

[rjs330]

Equation "you killed thousand of us, we kill 10,000 of you in a revenge" is not civilized and leads to escalation of revenge from the first side of the conflict, again. Things are getting worse and more cruel, thats the definition of escalation.

This is the naivety of so many. You see one side in this conflict has ALWAYS tried to kill the other side. No matter what they do or don't do. Israel has allowed the Palestinians to kill and bomb their people without much if any retribution. Because they were trying not to kill civilians. Did that stop the Palestinians? No, they just kept killing and kidnapping. Israel doesn't respond and it just emboldens their enemies. They respond and it emboldens their enemies.

I never understood this type of naive thinking. Terrorists attack you, but we have to be very careful not to attack back too hard or else it just creates more terrorists. What nonsense. You ever heard of Terrorists just giving up cause the enemy decided to play nice? Oh they aren't going to strike back? I guess we'll just take out toys and go home.

 

[trophy33]

This is the naivety of so many. You see one side in this conflict has ALWAYS tried to kill the other side. No matter what they do or don't do. Israel has allowed the Palestinians to kill and bomb their people without much if any retribution. Because they were trying not to kill civilians. Did that stop the Palestinians? No, they just kept killing and kidnapping. Israel doesn't respond and it just emboldens their enemies. They respond and it emboldens their enemies.

I never understood this type of naive thinking. Terrorists attack you, but we have to be very careful not to attack back too hard or else it just creates more terrorists. What nonsense. You ever heard of Terrorists just giving up cause the enemy decided to play nice? Oh they aren't going to strike back? I guess we'll just take out toys and go home.

There are international humanitarian laws. All sides of all conflicts are bound to keep them. If not, they must be strongly criticized by others.

Also, as Christians, we should have higher standards than the world, not lower.

 

[rjs330]

Hamas is not a country. The context of my post was rather USA, EU and broadly United Nations. Any country that is civilized should not pick sides, but instead support what is good and being strongly against what is evil. Only this "strategy" will force any side of a conflict to keep the international rules.

Unconditional support leads to breaking the rules.

This is such malarky. By not picking a side you have picked a side. And in this case the UN has chosen to pick the side of the terrorists. Yes there IS an evil side in this conflict. It's the one that raped women and forced them to watch their babies be cooked babies alive in ovens. That's the evil side.

No Israel isn't and hasn't been perfect. But they are not evil. Heaven help us if we can't see that.