How Does One Put A Pre-Trib Rapture Before “The Last Day”?

[truthpls]

You make claims and then do nothing to back them up. I just can't take that seriously. Let's actually look at the text and see if it supports what you're saying.

2 Peter 3:8 But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day. 9 The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

So, in verse 8 Peter said "With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day.". The verse right after that shows the context of what he was saying. Because of the fact that a day and a thousand years make no difference to the Lord (since He created time and exists outside of it), that is why Peter could say "The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness". This has absolutely nothing to do with the duration of the day of the Lord, but rather has to do with how long it is taking for the Lord to keep His promise of coming back ("his promise" refers back to the promise of His coming mentioned in verse 4). Some try to say He is being slow to come back, but He is not being slow from His eternal perspective where one day and a thousand years are no different to Him.

So, I just showed the context of what 2 Peter 3:8 means. It has nothing to do with the duration of the day of the Lord. You are trying to twist scripture to fit your doctrine, but that is an unacceptable thing to do.

The context of what promise it was is in the verse. Isn't that the verse that deals with the new earth? Look at Revelation we are promised a city and a new earth.

It says the sudden destruction occurs AFTER they say peace and safety, not before as you were saying. And it does not say they say peace and safety after we are raptured. That is another thing you are adding that isn't there anywhere in the text.

Luke cleared that up. Are you suggesting there is no harmony in the gospels?

If you look at 1 Thessalonians 4:14-5:3 and 2 Thessalonians 2:7-10, you can see that the rapture and the destruction of all of Christ's enemies happen at about the same time when Jesus returns.

1 Thessalonians 4:14
For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

So Christians already in heaven return with Him at the Rapture to get their new bodies

1 Thessalonians 5:2
For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

1 Thessalonians 5:3
For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

The day of the Lord starts with the Rapture and after, when they say peace and safety in the last seven years, suddenly destruction comes.

NONE of the verses you posted say anything remotely similar to your 'no millennium, all is destroyed the same day Jesus and us return to earth' philosophy.

Nor does 2 Thes 5 that you listed as support

2 Thessalonians 2:3
Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

2 Thessalonians 2:4
Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.


2 Thessalonians 2:5
Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

2 Thessalonians 2:6
And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.


2 Thessalonians 2:7
For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.


2 Thessalonians 2:8
And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

2 Thessalonians 2:9
Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

2 Thessalonians 2:10
And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.


That is about the antichrist who is in the tribulation.

Trying to turn the rapture into a separate event from His coming to destroy His enemies does not make any sense and is not supported by scripture.

Trying to ignore the hope of all ages, our blessed hope so that you and wave away the millennium is less than a weal mutilation of Scripture.

Where does scripture teach that? Nowhere. If you read 1 Thess 4:14-17, you can see that He has people WITH Him when He descends from heaven just before the rapture occurs and then He has people taken up to meet Him at that point.

Already explained a few times. The dead in Christ come with Him to get their new eternal physical and spiritual eternal bodies like Jesus has. We all get new bodies then, even the ones with Jesus now in spirit form.
It is simple. Only those seeking to impose their pet theories on the text and do things like wave away the millennium (as you admitted you do) get muddled up.

 

[truthpls]

How does that line up with 2 Peter 3:10-13 which is said to occur in conjunction with the promise of His second coming?

I already dealt with that.
2 Peter 3:10
But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
The new heavens are also in that day, just as many other things are such as the Rapture that starts that day. You conflate the destruction of the world and creation of a new one for us with the return to earth.

How does that line up with 2 Thess 1:7-10 which has Jesus destroying all of His enemies when He returns while at the same time His people will all be changed to have immortal bodies.

Very easily.
2 Thessalonians 1:7
And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,


2 Thessalonians 1:8
In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

He returns TO earth with His saints and angels. That is not when we meet Him up in the air.

What mortals exactly will populate a supposed thousand year earthly kingdom?

The ones that are alive still and not destroyed as enemies that you thought could not possibly be alive because you conflated the end of the day of the Lord and millennium when the earth is destroyed. The world will be still here when we rule for 1000 years. Lots of clean up for them to do of course. Dead bodies etc. They won't be bored.

Jesus indicated that heaven and earth will pass away when He comes resulting in the death of all unbelievers just as occurred in the flood. How does that support your view?

No that is at the end of the millennium which is also part of the day of the Lord. You miss the forest for the trees when you try to wave away the 1000 year reign of Jesus.

Matthew 24:35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away. 36 “But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. 37 As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 38 For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; 39 and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man.

No one knows when the Rapture will happen. Look again at what Jesus said there

Matthew 24:35
Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

Matthew 24:36
But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

The day of the Lord which starts with the Rapture So, when does the heaven and earth pass away? In that day of the Lord, (the end of it). Simple

What Jesus said here lines up with what Peter wrote about in 2nd Peter 3. Like Peter, Jesus indicated that heaven and earth will pass away at His second coming.

No, in the day of the Lord, once again you make the same mistake by erasing the 1000 years that is also IN the day of the Lord.

Peter obviously wrote more details on that. Jesus indicated that just as all unbelievers were killed by the flood in Noah's day "That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man". So, Jesus taught that all unbelievers will be killed at His second coming. How will that happen?

Look again. The idea was that it was a surprise when the flood came. The Rapture will be a surprise also.
Matthew 24:37
But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Another tidbit that shows it is the Rapture is this

Matthew 24:46
Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.


Matthew 24:47
Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods.

When we go up in the air to be with Him where He is, we get our rewards at the marriage supper and judgment of Christ. Not the judgment of the world, but us.

Just read 2 Peter 3:10-12. That's how.

That verse was already clearly explained.
2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass.. In the end of that period, not the start.

There will not be two separate events when Jesus comes down from heaven with a loud trumpet call and where His people are gathered from both heaven and earth. It's not reasonable at all to conclude that 1 Thess 4:14-17 is not the same event as described in the Olivet Discourse in Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27. And Jesus made it clear that event will occur AFTER the tribulation.

The event after the tribulation in which saints from the tribulation era are gather to Him is not the Rapture. Your molestation of verse to try to eliminate the millennium and compress that period into a single day confuses you.

You have NOTHING to support this claim. The event of which we don't know the day or hour includes the passing away of heaven and earth.

That is not an event it is a time period with various events, such as the Rapture and new earth IN it. It is always the same root cause with you muddled confusion, trying to eliminate His 1000 year rule on earth.

Matthew 24:35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away. 36 “But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.

That day of the Lord starts with the Rapture and no one knows when it will be. That day of the Lord includes the destruction of earth and a new earth created for us at the end of that time.

Believe it, or not.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

The context of what promise it was is in the verse. Isn't that the verse that deals with the new earth? Look at Revelation we are promised a city and a new earth.

Did you actually read what I said and which verse I was referencing? I wasn't referencing 2 Peter 3:13 I was referencing this verse:

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

What is "his promise" referring to in this verse? You can't determine that by this verse alone. So, you have to go back a little bit to what Peter said earlier to determine that.

2 Peter 3:3 Above all, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires. 4 They will say, “Where is this ‘coming’ he promised? Ever since our ancestors died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation.”

So, "his promise" in 2 Peter 3:9 is the promise of His second coming. Would you agree? Some thing that the Lord is being slow to come again, but Peter made it clear that He is not because from His perspective one day and a thousand years are no different.

Luke cleared that up. Are you suggesting there is no harmony in the gospels?

Please don't ask me ridiculous questions. Do you think I would actually answer yes to that question? Tell me what you are talking about here. What did Luke clear up exactly and how?

1 Thessalonians 4:14
For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

So Christians already in heaven return with Him at the Rapture to get their new bodies

Right. And it says it's those "which sleep in Jesus". That would be the souls of the dead in Christ. Agree? How is this any different from Mark 13:24-27 which has the elect being gathered both from heaven and from earth when Jesus comes after the tribulation? The ones from heaven would be "them which sleep in Jesus" that come down from heaven with Christ just before the rapture occurs.

1 Thessalonians 5:2
For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

1 Thessalonians 5:3
For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

The day of the Lord starts with the Rapture and after, when they say peace and safety in the last seven years, suddenly destruction comes.

Where does Paul indicate that they don't start saying peace and safety until after the rapture? No, within 1 Thess 4:14-5:3 (no chapter breaks in the original manuscripts) Paul first indicates what will happen to believers when Jesus returns the one and only time from heaven in the future and then he says what will happen to unbelievers on that same day. That's why he said this in 2 Thess 1:6-10:

2 Thess 1:6 God is just: He will pay back trouble to those who trouble you 7 and give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well. This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels. 8 He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might 10 on the day he comes to be glorified in his holy people and to be marveled at among all those who have believed. This includes you, because you believed our testimony to you.

Notice here that on the same day "he comes to be glorified in his holy people and to be marveled at among all those who have believed." he also destroys and punishes all of His enemies. That is the same thing Paul indicates in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-5:3. There is no basis whatsoever for trying to turn 1 Thess 4:14-17 and 1 Thess 5:2-3 into an entirely different events at different times.

NONE of the verses you posted say anything remotely similar to your 'no millennium, all is destroyed the same day Jesus and us return to earth' philosophy.

They most certainly do. What unbeliever is excepted amongst those who don't know God and don't obey the gospel? None. That includes all unbelievers and 2 Thess 1:7-10 indicates He will destroy and punish all of them when He returns. On that same day all unbelievers will be changed to have immortal bodies. What mortals does that leave to populate an earthly millennium? None.

Nor does 2 Thes 5 that you listed as support

You mean 1 Thess 5?

1 Thessalonians 5:2 for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. 3 While people are saying, “Peace and safety,” destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape.

You believe that the destruction Paul describes here won't even occur until 1,000+ years after Jesus returns, right? Where is that indicated in any way, shape or form in this text? Why would Paul go on to say in verse 4: "But you, brothers and sisters, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief" if it wasn't even possible for that day, and the destruction it will bring, to occur in their lifetimes? That makes no sense.

2 Thessalonians 2:3
Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

2 Thessalonians 2:4
Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.


2 Thessalonians 2:5
Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

2 Thessalonians 2:6
And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.


2 Thessalonians 2:7
For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.


2 Thessalonians 2:8
And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

2 Thessalonians 2:9
Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

2 Thessalonians 2:10
And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.


That is about the antichrist who is in the tribulation.

Why did you quote 2 Thess 2 when I didn't even reference it? This shows that you don't read carefully.

Trying to ignore the hope of all ages, our blessed hope so that you and wave away the millennium is less than a weal mutilation of Scripture.

It doesn't do you any good to falsely represent my view. It just makes you look bad. I most certainly do NOT ignore that blessed hope at all! What an insult for you to say that! It shows your utter ignorance of what I believe.

Titus 2:11 For the grace of God has appeared that offers salvation to all people. 12 It teaches us to say “No” to ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright and godly lives in this present age, 13 while we wait for the blessed hope—the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ, 14 who gave himself for us to redeem us from all wickedness and to purify for himself a people that are his very own, eager to do what is good.

You don't have to believe in a pre-trib rapture in order to believe in the rapture and in order to believe in "the blessed hope—the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ". I look forward to His appearing every day! Having that hope is what keeps me going each day.

Already explained a few times. The dead in Christ come with Him to get their new eternal physical and spiritual eternal bodies like Jesus has. We all get new bodies then, even the ones with Jesus now in spirit form.

And we are caught up to Him in the air at that time, right? So, that means He comes both with and for His people at that time. One event. At which point He will destroy all of His enemies and then the judgment of all people will occur.

It is simple. Only those seeking to impose their pet theories on the text and do things like wave away the millennium (as you admitted you do) get muddled up.

You speak out of complete ignorance. I don't wave away the millennium, I interpret the thousand years differently than you do. You're acting as if I say it doesn't actually exist at all and that's not what I believe. I simply believe that the thousand years is figurative, but also believe it represents an actual period of time during which Christ reigns and at the end of which Satan is loosed for a little season before Christ returns. Scripture teaches that Christ reigns now (Matt 28:18, Eph 1:19-23, Rev 1:5-6).

The term "thousand" is used figuratively several times in scripture including in verses like these:

Deuteronomy 7:9 9 Know therefore that the Lord your God is God; he is the faithful God, keeping his covenant of love to a thousand generations of those who love him and keep his commandments.

Psalm 50:9 I have no need of a bull from your stall or of goats from your pens, 10 for every animal of the forest is mine, and the cattle on a thousand hills.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

No one knows when the Rapture will happen. Look again at what Jesus said there

Matthew 24:35
Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

Matthew 24:36
But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

The day of the Lord which starts with the Rapture So, when does the heaven and earth pass away? In that day of the Lord, (the end of it). Simple

What is "that day" He was referring to of which no one know the day or hour? The day that heaven and earth will pass away. Just read the text. You ignored that part. The same day of the Lord that Peter said will result in heaven and earth passing away by way of being burned up (2 Peter 3:10-12). That is the day Jesus will come. Jesus Himself associated that day with His second coming in Matthew 25:1-13. And He very clearly indicated that His coming would occur AFTER "the tribulation of those days" (Matthew 24:29-31).

No, in the day of the Lord, once again you make the same mistake by erasing the 1000 years that is also IN the day of the Lord.

There is no scripture whatsoever which teaches that the day of the Lord lasts for 1,000 years. Not even close. You are making that up. In passages like 1 Thess 5:2-3 and 2 Peter 3:10-12, it is very clearly indicated that mass global destruction will occur upon the arrival of the day of the Lord. Not 1,000+ years later. Immediately when it arrives. Only doctrinal bias can prevent someone from seeing something so obvious as that.

Look again. The idea was that it was a surprise when the flood came. The Rapture will be a surprise also.
Matthew 24:37
But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Why don't you look again? You are ignoring verses 38 and 39.

Matthew 24:37 As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 38 For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; 39 and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man.

What Jesus was saying here is not just that the days leading up to His coming would be like the days of Noah that led up to the flood, but He also indicated that just as "the flood came and took them all away" (the flood killed all unbelievers) the same will happen at His coming. All unbelievers will be killed. You completely ignored that part. All unbelievers wll be caught off guard when He comes and they will be destroyed. That is what Jesus taught, what Paul taught in 1 Thess 5:2-3 and what Peter taught in 2 Peter 3:10-12. Your focus is solely on the rapture that will occur at that time and you ignore the global destruction that will occur on the same day.

Another tidbit that shows it is the Rapture is this

I agree that it's the rapture, so you're wasting your time with this. What you're wrong about is believing that it's a pre-trib rapture. No, it's a post-trib rapture.

When we go up in the air to be with Him where He is, we get our rewards at the marriage supper and judgment of Christ. Not the judgment of the world, but us.

This is yet another thing that you are mistaken about. Just read Matthew 25:31-46 and you can see that it's not just believers who will appear before the judgment seat of Christ when He comes. It will be unbelievers, also.

The following also indicates that unbelievers will appear before the judgment seat of Christ and not just believers:

Romans 14:10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. 11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God. 12 So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.

The way to know that Paul was saying all people, and not just unbelievers, would stand before the judgment seat of Christ is to look up the Old Testament passage that he referenced here.

Isaiah 45:22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else. 23 I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear. 24 Surely, shall one say, in the Lord have I righteousness and strength: even to him shall men come; and all that are incensed against him shall be ashamed.

Notice that this passage says "every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear" to God. That is what Paul was referencing in Romans 14:11. We know this includes unbelievers because in Isaiah 45:24 it says "all that are incensed against him shall be ashamed". So, even unbelievers will be bowing to Him at that time and acknowledging who He is. But they will be ashamed since they did not acknowledge it before they died when they had the chance.

That verse was already clearly explained.
2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass.. In the end of that period, not the start.

The event after the tribulation in which saints from the tribulation era are gather to Him is not the Rapture. Your molestation of verse to try to eliminate the millennium and compress that period into a single day confuses you.

You are the one who is confused here. Very confused. Your view is all over the place and does not reconcile all these passages we're talking about together in a coherent way at all.

 

[Fisherking]

We know from 1 Thess. that the rapture takes place almost simultaneously when Jesus raises His physically dead believers up out of their graves. All those who are in their graves are actually caught up first, then those who are still alive in their physical bodies at that time, and on that day get caught up right after them.

1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.


1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:


1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

So we can clearly see that the rapture takes place on the day of the resurrection of all His saints who have died(as far as their physical existence is concerned) in Him.

So when did Jesus tell us several times that He is going to “raise the dead”?

Jhn 6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

Jhn 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.


Jhn 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.


Jhn 6:54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

Jhn 11:24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.


Wow, this must be too simple for a lot of people to understand?

The key is the word all, so Jesus raises his bride and they go to the Fathers house (Heaven, in my Fathers house are many mansions) where Jesus marries his bride. Those Jewish Saints of old, and those Martyrs during the 70th week will be raised on the last day, thus that completes all........ALL.......that are given unto him, the first resurrection is the resurrection of those in Christ, be they the bride of Christ or the Fathers bride, or the Martyrs in Christ who die during the 70th week. Daniel was told he would stand in his lot at the very end. This is why have to understand Israel and the Church have two different callings.

All one has to do is read Revelation 19, how can we marry the lamb, then return with him, while the Beast and his minions are still on this earth, if there is no pre tribulation rapture?

 

[Divide]

Once in the air and once down to earth. Then, probably hundreds of thousands of times, like us, since our home is New Jerusalem and we will just probably work here and commute!

I never thought of that before! That's a wonderful thought.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

The key is the word all, so Jesus raises his bride and they go to the Fathers house (Heaven, in my Fathers house are many mansions) where Jesus marries his bride. Those Jewish Saints of old, and those Martyrs during the 70th week will be raised on the last day, thus that completes all........ALL.......that are given unto him, the first resurrection is the resurrection of those in Christ, be they the bride of Christ or the Fathers bride, or the Martyrs in Christ who die during the 70th week. Daniel was told he would stand in his lot at the very end. This is why have to understand Israel and the Church have two different callings.

All one has to do is read Revelation 19, how can we marry the lamb, then return with him, while the Beast and his minions are still on this earth, if there is no pre tribulation rapture?

Where does Revelation 19 indicate that we have married the Lamb before He returns? It doesn't say that. It says in verse 8: "the wedding of the Lamb has come, and his bride has made herself ready.". That means the time for the wedding has come because the bride is ready for the wedding at that point. It doesn't mean it has happened yet. It can't happen until the bride has made herself ready and that doesn't happen until the time when Jesus returns, as described in Revelation 19:11-21. It happens after Jesus descends from heaven at that point with the souls of the dead in Christ (1 Thess 4:14) and then His people, including those who are alive and remain and the resurrected dead in Christ are caught up to meet Him in the air. The wedding takes place after that.

 

[truthpls]

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

OK the promise of Hi coming. And...so?

So, "his promise" in 2 Peter 3:9 is the promise of His second coming. Would you agree?

Yes

Some thing that the Lord is being slow to come again, but Peter made it clear that He is not because from His perspective one day and a thousand years are no different.

Right, in either case what seems a long time to us is not that long to God.

Please don't ask me ridiculous questions. Do you think I would actually answer yes to that question? Tell me what you are talking about here. What did Luke clear up exactly and how?

In Mat 24 it says when all these thing happen. In Luke it clears it up by saying when these things start to happen.

Right. And it says it's those "which sleep in Jesus". That would be the souls of the dead in Christ. Agree? How is this any different from Mark 13:24-27 which has the elect being gathered both from heaven and from earth when Jesus comes after the tribulation? The ones from heaven would be "them which sleep in Jesus" that come down from heaven with Christ just before the rapture occurs.

In Mark it is after the tribulation. I assume you are talking about 1 thes 4 about the sleep in Jesus..

1 Thessalonians 4:14
For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
Once again, the dead Christian with Jesus in heaven come back with Him at the Rapture.

Where does Paul indicate that they don't start saying peace and safety until after the rapture? No, within 1 Thess 4:14-5:3 (no chapter breaks in the original manuscripts) Paul first indicates what will happen to believers when Jesus returns the one and only time from heaven in the future and then he says what will happen to unbelievers on that same day. That's why he said this in 2 Thess 1:6-10:

2 Thess 1:6 God is just: He will pay back trouble to those who trouble you 7 and give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well. This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels. 8 He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might 10 on the day he comes to be glorified in his holy people and to be marveled at among all those who have believed. This includes you, because you believed our testimony to you.

The payback is when He returns not when He comes in the air for us. In 1 thes 4 it says this
2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.


3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

The tribulation destruction comes after the day of the Lord starts. They will be talking peace then, after the rapture when the day of the Lord starts. Notice the day of the Lord verse comes before the other one?

Notice here that on the same day "he comes to be glorified in his holy people and to be marveled at among all those who have believed." he also destroys and punishes all of His enemies.
That is the same thing Paul indicates in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-5:3. There is no basis whatsoever for trying to turn 1 Thess 4:14-17 and 1 Thess 5:2-3 into an entirely different events at different times.

Not sure what your problem is with the two events exactly. He punishes enemies when? His return to earth. There are similarities in the Rapture and the return to earth. In both events He brings believers from Heaven.
In 1 thes 5 it talks about destruction coming upon them. What comes after the Rapture/start of the day of the Lord? The terrible tribulation. More than half the population of the world is killed all trees burned up, all water turned to blood, plagues, pestilences etc. Then, after that, when the tribulation is over, Jesus returns and even more destruction happens to His enemies. The word destruction does not automatically mean the day He returns to earth. Again you conflate events.

They most certainly do. What unbeliever is excepted amongst those who don't know God and don't obey the gospel? None. That includes all unbelievers and 2 Thess 1:7-10 indicates He will destroy and punish all of them when He returns.

In that chapter it is talking about His return to earth. Not our gathering together in the air with Him.

On that same day all unbelievers will be changed to have immortal bodies. What mortals does that leave to populate an earthly millennium? None.

What day? You jump around chapters like a grasshopper. Focus on one at a time so we know what you are trying to refer to. We get our immortal bodies at the Rapture. The tribulation with oodles of destruction on earth follows that. Later the return to earth of Christ and destruction again. After the 1000 years more destruction when the world itself is destroyed.

You mean 1 Thess 5?

1 Thessalonians 5:2 for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. 3 While people are saying, “Peace and safety,” destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape.

Labor pains indicate the tribulation. After we are Raptured.

You believe that the destruction Paul describes here won't even occur until 1,000+ years after Jesus returns, right?

Which destruction? Of the planet? Or the enemies when He returns to earth? Or? Be specific.

Where is that indicated in any way, shape or form in this text? Why would Paul go on to say in verse 4: "But you, brothers and sisters, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief" if it wasn't even possible for that day, and the destruction it will bring, to occur in their lifetimes? That makes no sense.

Believers were always to be ready as if He could come at any time. We don't know when exactly. As Jesus said, no man knows the day or hour, not even the angels in heaven. In that same chapter Paul points out we are not appointed to wrath but salvation. so we miss the wrath. We do have signs that tell us that that time is near. Luke said when we even start to see the signs we know it is near. So we are not in darkness. We will know it is the end time. We do not know the exact day He is coming to meet us in the air though. In the tribulation they will know the day of His return. The days are given.

Why did you quote 2 Thess 2 when I didn't even reference it? This shows that you don't read carefully.

You are jumping all over with your references and it is less than clear what you are talking about at times.

It doesn't do you any good to falsely represent my view. It just makes you look bad. I most certainly do NOT ignore that blessed hope at all! What an insult for you to say that! It shows your utter ignorance of what I believe.

You can call something ELSE beside the gathering together in the air the blessed hope all you like. The so called hope you seem to be preaching here is a time after the wrath of God, (which we won't be in) when Jesus returns to earth, and in which the planet is destroyed?! Sorry. The hope of ages I am talking about is being delivered from that wrath and meeting Him in the air.

Titus 2:11 For the grace of God has appeared that offers salvation to all people. 12 It teaches us to say “No” to ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright and godly lives in this present age, 13 while we wait for the blessed hope—the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ, 14 who gave himself for us to redeem us from all wickedness and to purify for himself a people that are his very own, eager to do what is good.

The appearing we wait for now is the Rapture.

You don't have to believe in a pre-trib rapture in order to believe in the rapture and in order to believe in "the blessed hope—the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ". I look forward to His appearing every day! Having that hope is what keeps me going each day.

Since His return to earth is after the horrible wrath of God your 'hope' includes going through the Great Tribulation.

And we are caught up to Him in the air at that time, right? So, that means He comes both with and for His people at that time. One event. At which point He will destroy all of His enemies and then the judgment of all people will occur.

No. He comes with and for His people both at the Rapture and the return to earth.

I don't wave away the millennium, I interpret the thousand years differently than you do.

So it is a real 1000 years or not? If not then you wave it away. Admit it

You're acting as if I say it doesn't actually exist at all and that's not what I believe. I simply believe that the thousand years is figurative, but also believe it represents an actual period of time during which Christ reigns and at the end of which Satan is loosed for a little season before Christ returns. Scripture teaches that Christ reigns now (Matt 28:18, Eph 1:19-23, Rev 1:5-6).

A time period that is not 1000 years! The kingdoms of this world only become His kingdoms after He returns to earth

The term "thousand" is used figuratively several times in scripture including in verses like these:

Deuteronomy 7:9 9 Know therefore that the Lord your God is God; he is the faithful God, keeping his covenant of love to a thousand generations of those who love him and keep his commandments.

Why can there not be a thousand generations? We live forever.

Psalm 50:9 I have no need of a bull from your stall or of goats from your pens, 10 for every animal of the forest is mine, and the cattle on a thousand hills.

Did you not think there is really a thousand hills on earth?

 

[truthpls]

What is "that day" He was referring to of which no one know the day or hour? The day that heaven and earth will pass away.

That is the day of the Lord and the new earth only comes after the thousand years, which is also part of that time period called the day of the Lord.

Just read the text. You ignored that part. The same day of the Lord that Peter said will result in heaven and earth passing away by way of being burned up (2 Peter 3:10-12). That is the day Jesus will come. Jesus Himself associated that day with His second coming in Matthew 25:1-13. And He very clearly indicated that His coming would occur AFTER "the tribulation of those days" (Matthew 24:29-31).

The day of the Lord starts with the Rapture, and includes the last seven years as well as the 1000 year reign of Christ.

There is no scripture whatsoever which teaches that the day of the Lord lasts for 1,000 years.

Yes, we know by all that is included in it.

In passages like 1 Thess 5:2-3 and 2 Peter 3:10-12, it is very clearly indicated that mass global destruction will occur upon the arrival of the day of the Lord. Not 1,000+ years later. Immediately when it arrives. Only doctrinal bias can prevent someone from seeing something so obvious as that.

Not true at all.
1 Thessalonians 5:2
For you yourselves know very well that the Day of the Lord will come just like a thief in the night.


1 Thessalonians 5:3
When they say, "Peace and security," then sudden destruction comes on them, like labor pains come on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape.

Nothing about the world being destroyed here at all.

Why don't you look again? You are ignoring verses 38 and 39.

Matthew 24:37 As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 38 For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; 39 and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man.

What Jesus was saying here is not just that the days leading up to His coming would be like the days of Noah that led up to the flood, but He also indicated that just as "the flood came and took them all away" (the flood killed all unbelievers) the same will happen at His coming. All unbelievers will be killed. You completely ignored that part. All unbelievers wll be caught off guard when He comes and they will be destroyed. That is what Jesus taught, what Paul taught in 1 Thess 5:2-3 and what Peter taught in 2 Peter 3:10-12. Your focus is solely on the rapture that will occur at that time and you ignore the global destruction that will occur on the same day.

No. The world will not all be taken away in the end. The wicked will be destroyed when Jesus returns though.

I agree that it's the rapture, so you're wasting your time with this. What you're wrong about is believing that it's a pre-trib rapture. No, it's a post-trib rapture.

When you say
'it" is the rapture, what is 'it'?

This is yet another thing that you are mistaken about. Just read Matthew 25:31-46 and you can see that it's not just believers who will appear before the judgment seat of Christ when He comes. It will be unbelievers, also.

The following also indicates that unbelievers will appear before the judgment seat of Christ and not just believers:

Romans 14:10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. 11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God. 12 So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.

That is believers/

The way to know that Paul was saying all people, and not just unbelievers, would stand before the judgment seat of Christ is to look up the Old Testament passage that he referenced here.

Isaiah 45:22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else. 23 I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear. 24 Surely, shall one say, in the Lord have I righteousness and strength: even to him shall men come; and all that are incensed against him shall be ashamed.

Notice that this passage says "every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear" to God. That is what Paul was referencing in Romans 14:11. We know this includes unbelievers because in Isaiah 45:24 it says "all that are incensed against him shall be ashamed". So, even unbelievers will be bowing to Him at that time and acknowledging who He is. But they will be ashamed since they did not acknowledge it before they died when they had the chance.

There is coming a time of course when every knee will bow. He will rule the world. That does not mean that we did not go to the judgment seat of Christ in heaven after we were raptured.

 

[truthpls]

I never thought of that before! That's a wonderful thought.

Yes. Eye has not seen nor ear heard the things God has prepared for us.

 

[Fisherking]

Where does Revelation 19 indicate that we have married the Lamb before He returns? It doesn't say that. It says in verse 8: "the wedding of the Lamb has come, and his bride has made herself ready.". That means the time for the wedding has come because the bride is ready for the wedding at that point. It doesn't mean it has happened yet.

The Jewish wedding custom was 7 days in the fathers house them the wedding feast. Armageddon is the wedding feast, however it is meant as metaphoric in nature, Jesus slays them all by the presence of his coming, but we revel in our victory over evil, over those who in many cases killed our brothers.

The Marriage Happens in the Fathers House (In my Fathers house are many mansions/houses)

Rev. 19:8 And to her(Bride) was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints. (Not Angels but Saints)

9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb.(The wedding happens BEFORE the Super not after, so Jesus has gone straight into speaking about the Wedding Supper to come) And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God........

Rev. 19:14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. (This is the Bride of Christ, returning with Jesus to the Marriage Supper which happens 7 years after the Marriage, which matches in prophecy the Jewish custom of 7 days)

We see the bride in Rev. 4:4, go read the promises to those of the 7 Churches who overcame, in Rev. 2:10 (Crowns of gold) in Rev. 3:5 (White Robes) and in Rev. 3:21 (to sit at God's throne) and in Rev. 4:4 they are sitting at God's thrones, with white robes and gold crowns. In Rev. 5:9-10 it says we are REDEEEMED by the blood, angels to not need redemption. We see them again in Rev. 7:9-16, no one can be raptured after the 70th week begins, once the wedding door is closed it is sealed.

So, the wedding has come, and they are looking forward to the Marriage Super, meaning the Marriage came. So, if Tom and Lisa's Marriage CAME are the married? I do not get all the nuanced shifting I see via people trying to make a verse fit their understanding. It kind of reminds me of those who say there is only 1/3 a week left and Jesus really died after the 69th week, instead of at the exact point of the 69th week as the prophecy says.

It can't happen until the bride has made herself ready and that doesn't happen until the time when Jesus returns, as described in Revelation 19:11-21. It happens after Jesus descends from heaven at that point with the souls of the dead in Christ (1 Thess 4:14) and then His people, including those who are alive and remain and the resurrected dead in Christ are caught up to meet Him in the air. The wedding takes place after that.

Which is Pre Trib. He is returning with the Bride right there, as vs. 14 says.

Wow, getting late, Bed Time for me, have a great night my brother. God Bless

 

[truthpls]

The Jewish wedding custom was 7 days in the fathers house them the wedding feast. Armageddon is the wedding feast, however it is meant as metaphoric in nature, Jesus slays them all by the presence of his coming, but we revel in our victory over evil, over those who in many cases killed our brothers.

The Marriage Happens in the Fathers House (In my Fathers house are many mansions/houses)

Rev. 19:8 And to her(Bride) was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints. (Not Angels but Saints)

9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb.(The wedding happens BEFORE the Super not after, so Jesus has gone straight into speaking about the Wedding Supper to come) And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God........

Rev. 19:14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. (This is the Bride of Christ, returning with Jesus to the Marriage Supper which happens 7 years after the Marriage, which matches in prophecy the Jewish custom of 7 days)

We see the bride in Rev. 4:4, go read the promises to those of the 7 Churches who overcame, in Rev. 2:10 (Crowns of gold) in Rev. 3:5 (White Robes) and in Rev. 3:21 (to sit at God's throne) and in Rev. 4:4 they are sitting at God's thrones, with white robes and gold crowns. In Rev. 5:9-10 it says we are REDEEEMED by the blood, angels to not need redemption. We see them again in Rev. 7:9-16, no one can be raptured after the 70th week begins, once the wedding door is closed it is sealed.

So, the wedding has come, and they are looking forward to the Marriage Super, meaning the Marriage came. So, if Tom and Lisa's Marriage CAME are the married? I do not get all the nuanced shifting I see via people trying to make a verse fit their understanding. It kind of reminds me of those who say there is only 1/3 a week left and Jesus really died after the 69th week, instead of at the exact point of the 69th week as the prophecy says.



Which is Pre Trib. He is returning with the Bride right there, as vs. 14 says.

Wow, getting late, Bed Time for me, have a great night my brother. God Bless

Interesting. So, you think the marriage supper of the Lamb is not in heaven, because...?

 

[Fisherking]

Interesting. So, you think the marriage supper of the Lamb is not in heaven, because...?

Well, I think we can just post the numbers of passages here and the scriptures can be brought up without posting the scriptures themselves, that saves work.

So Rev. 19:17-19 shows us the angel cries out to all the fouls in the midst of heaven to gather ourselves to the super of the great God (lets tie in Matt. 24:28 to this also) that you may feast on the flesh of Kings, Captains, mighty men, their horses and men both great and small. Finally John saw the Beast and his kings set to make war with Jesus.

Armageddon is the Marriage Supper. Of course its metaphoric in nature, but notice in Matt. 24:28 when Jesus gives a clue about where he will be at, he says the Eagle's will be gathered where the carcass is at. In Rev. 19:17-19 we are the fowls of heaven, we are having our feast over evil, it as I said is metaphoric in nature. Jesus is saying all the wicked men of earth who had their fill of greed, lust, anger, and wickedness and ruled the day their time, now you will get the victory over them. The fact is however Jesus will speak victory over them, and defeat them all "Without Hands"

 

[truthpls]

Well, I think we can just post the numbers of passages here and the scriptures can be brought up without posting the scriptures themselves, that saves work.

So Rev. 19:17-19 shows us the angel cries out to all the fouls in the midst of heaven to gather ourselves to the super of the great God (lets tie in Matt. 24:28 to this also) that you may feast on the flesh of Kings, Captains, mighty men, their horses and men both great and small. Finally John saw the Beast and his kings set to make war with Jesus.

Armageddon is the Marriage Supper. Of course its metaphoric in nature, but notice in Matt. 24:28 when Jesus gives a clue about where he will be at, he says the Eagle's will be gathered where the carcass is at. In Rev. 19:17-19 we are the fowls of heaven, we are having our feast over evil, it as I said is metaphoric in nature. Jesus is saying all the wicked men of earth who had their fill of greed, lust, anger, and wickedness and ruled the day their time, now you will get the victory over them. The fact is however Jesus will speak victory over them, and defeat them all "Without Hands"

I see, OK thanks for explaining that. The way I see it still, is that the marriage supper is in heaven after we are Raptured as well as the judgment seat of Christ for believers and probably we receive our rewards there. I think the horrible supper for the wicked is a contrast and illustrates the amazing difference between the saved and unsaved sappers. I hope so I don't like eating when gross things are going on. Eagles catch a wind current and soar up in a group out of sight. I think that is the comparison to our gathering together with Him in the air.

The only possible flaw I see in my opinion is that perhaps some people would question why the tribulation saints and the old testament saints were not invited. I would think it would have to be because the church specifically is His Bride. However if both the new believers from the tribulation after the Rapture and the old testament Jews were also considered part of the Bride of Christ, then your timing would fit better.

 

[Fisherking]

I see, OK thanks for explaining that. The way I see it still, is that the marriage supper is in heaven after we are Raptured as well as the judgment seat of Christ for believers and probably we receive our rewards there.

Well, of course we have to be judged before we Marry the Lamb. The Judgment Seat in Rev. 20:4 is very specific, it is for those Martyrs who refused the Mark of the Beast, its says so in the verse. You see the Church or Bride is given the judgment once we return (we will judge angels) but we must ourselves be judged before we marry the lamb. I assume us being called to heaven, raised from the dead is that Judgment, God calls his own, and only we hear His call. Jesus blows the trump (sounds as a trump) in Rev. 4:1.

I think the horrible supper for the wicked is a contrast and illustrates the amazing difference between the saved and unsaved sappers. I hope so I don't like eating when gross things are going on. Eagles catch a wind current and soar up in a group out of sight. I think that is the comparison to our gathering together with Him in the air.

Its metaphoric in nature, we don't eat anything. We revel in the wicked demise.

The only possible flaw I see in my opinion is that perhaps some people would question why the tribulation saints and the old testament saints were not invited.

1.) The Old Testament Saints are already married unto the Father in Rev. the 144,000 have The Fathers name tattooed on their heads. There were Two Brides remember, Leah the forced one and Rachel the preferred one. These are all shadows.

2.) The Tribulation Saints got saved after the Rapture, one the Wedding Doors are CLOSED remember what Jesus said? no one will be let it. They will thus be Martyrs.

Timing or chronological orders are my specialty.

God Bless my friend, be well.

 

[truthpls]

Well, of course we have to be judged before we Marry the Lamb. The Judgment Seat in Rev. 20:4 is very specific, it is for those Martyrs who refused the Mark of the Beast, its says so in the verse.

Before this we have the scene in heaven of the marriage supper.
Revelation 19:7
Let us rejoice and exult and give him the glory, for the marriage of the Lamb has come, and his Bride has made herself ready;

So in heaven it had come. The Bride was there.

Revelation 19:9
And the angel said to me, "Write this: Blessed are those who are invited to the marriage supper of the Lamb." And he said to me, "These are the true words of God."

All this was in heaven before Jesus opened the heavens and came down to the earth.

Revelation 19:11
Then I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse! The one sitting on it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he judges and makes war.

So now Jesus returns to earth, already married. We know He brings us with Him as well. THEN the destruction of the wicked and that great flesh supper for the birds. Then the devil is bound and the thousand years starts. THEN we see at the start of that 1000 years what you mentioned.
Revelation 20:4
I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony for Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or his image and had not received his mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

So this seems like us helping Him judge as we were promised at the start of the millennium AND the people resurrected who were from the tribulation period also about to help us rule with Jesus.

You see the Church or Bride is given the judgment once we return (we will judge angels) but we must ourselves be judged before we marry the lamb. I assume us being called to heaven, raised from the dead is that Judgment, God calls his own, and only we hear His call. Jesus blows the trump (sounds as a trump) in Rev. 4:1.

Except the marriage is over and was in heaven before Jesus came down to earth with us.

Its metaphoric in nature, we don't eat anything. We revel in the wicked demise.

No. I think the feat in heaven will be a party lasting maybe most of the last seven years or some part of it just before He opens the heaven and comes down to earth. The horrible smelly rotting flesh that gets cleaned up after He takes vengeance on the wicked is not our party.

1.) The Old Testament Saints are already married unto the Father in Rev. the 144,000 have The Fathers name tattooed on their heads. There were Two Brides remember, Leah the forced one and Rachel the preferred one. These are all shadows.

Having a tattoo means you are married? In any event the marriage supper of the church/bride is a separate and special event.

2.) The Tribulation Saints got saved after the Rapture, one the Wedding Doors are CLOSED remember what Jesus said? no one will be let it. They will thus be Martyrs.

Great point! So the marriage of the Bride in heaven had to be without the folks left behind for the tribulation who later get saved.

 

[Fisherking]

Let us rejoice and exult and give him the glory, for the marriage of the Lamb has come, and his Bride has made herself ready;

So in heaven it had come. The Bride was there.

And the angel said to me, "Write this: Blessed are those who are invited to the marriage supper of the Lamb." And he said to me, "These are the true words of God."

All this was in heaven before Jesus opened the heavens and came down to the earth

No, you are missing it my friend and compatriot, she's a Bride, she already has on white linen, she's in heaven, then Jesus says Blessed are they which are called unto the Marriage Supper and the whole rest of the chapter is about her being adorned for the marriage supper they are about to attend, then the feast on kings, mighty men etc. back on earth. what about the verbiage are you grappling with? Its very, very easy to see that the bride in heaven has been adorned to go to the wedding feast, and that that wedding feast is back on earth at Armageddon, I mean its a Super, Jesus shows us feasting on wicked men, its like basic 101 prophecy, its just done in metaphoric code as is all of the book of Revelation.

This is all about us the church leaving heaven to attend the Marriage Super which is Armageddon.

In a traditional Jewish Wedding, when they reach their new home, the groom brings the bride into the bridal chamber where the marriage is consummated. After the marriage is consummated, the groom announces it to all the wedding guests. For seven more days, the bride and groom remain in the bridal chamber and are waited upon by the wedding party. Then comes the Marriage Super !! All Jesus is doing is giving us a simple picture of how his bride will have victory of the wicked, he does it by using the old Jewish Wedding customs, he's telling us we will be in his fathers house 7 years (days) we will consummate the marriage by being faithful and loving Christ, he then announces the bride has made herself ready, that is IMHO. where this is not connecting with you, I have done a dissertation on the "Jewish Wedding Pattern" so I am pretty hip on the subject. The bride only makes herself ready after being in the wedding chambers with the groom for the full 7 days, then comes the feast or marriage super.

So, all we have to do is understand the picture he's painting, in order to do so we have to study the customs he's referring unto. So, after 7 years in heaven the bride returns with Jesus, but for what purpose? Well, to feast on their enemies, I can you see it now? as I return with Christ, a fellow brother my side, who was burned at the stake by Rome, who sees this evil Beast Kingdom destroyed by the Master Jesus, and Satan and all his Demons locked in the bottomless pit. That is our marriage feast. That is the picture Jesus is painting. We don't eat people, its metaphoric, we get victory, whereas their greed, lust and hate gets them an eternity in hell.

So now Jesus returns to earth, already married. We know He brings us with Him as well. THEN the destruction of the wicked and that great flesh supper for the birds. Then the devil is bound and the thousand years starts. THEN we see at the start of that 1000 years what you mentioned.

Yes I understand the 1000 years starts when Jesus returns, but the Bride does not rule on earth with Jesus for 1000 years, read Rev. 20:4 very carefully.

I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony for Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or his image and had not received his mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

So this seems like us helping Him judge as we were promised at the start of the millennium AND the people resurrected who were from the tribulation period also about to help us rule with Jesus.

Here is why: See my point above? I bolded and underlined the key points. Get it yet? Only the Martyrs of the 70th week (THEY) liven and reign with Jesus on this earth for his 1000 year reign. We have other things to do no doubt, like help finishing of New Jerusalem no doubt, thus as it descends it is called the bride of Christ, because we descend in it, why else call a city the bride?

Yes, we judge the Martyrs here, but remember, the second resurrection is 1000 years after this, so all raised and judged here are of the first resurrection, so the judgment here will be varied and more than likely giving assignments and adornments et al.

No. I think the feat in heaven will be a party lasting maybe most of the last seven years or some part of it just before He opens the heaven and comes down to earth. The horrible smelly rotting flesh that gets cleaned up after He takes vengeance on the wicked is not our party.

This is why knowing the Jewish Customs Jesus is speaking about is a must brother.

Having a tattoo means you are married? In any event the marriage supper of the church/bride is a separate and special event.

We know God married Israel long ago, we know the Church is Jesus' bride, we know Jacob had two brides, the forced in Leah and the preferred in Rachel.

14 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.

Great point! So the marriage of the Bride in heaven had to be without the folks left behind for the tribulation who later get saved.

Yes, most do not grasp this in full. Seal #5 sees Jesus telling the Martyrs they must wait for all their brother to be killed as they were and for a little season to be over meaning the Anti-Christs 42 month reign of terror, before they will get vengeance. Then in Rev. 20:4 we see them only raised after the 70t week.

So, if you agree with that (hmmm) who are those seen in Rev. 7:9-17 who came out of great tribulation? Because no one can go the the wedding party after the 5 virgins have entered, the other 5 will be locked out!! Pssstt, they are really the Pre Trip Raptured church who came out of great tribulation, not the greatest ever, just great tribulation, which saw millions of deaths.

 

[truthpls]

No, you are missing it my friend and compatriot, she's a Bride, she already has on white linen, she's in heaven, then Jesus says Blessed are they which are called unto the Marriage Supper and the whole rest of the chapter is about her being adorned for the marriage supper they are about to attend,

2 Corinthians 11:2 For I feel a divine jealousy for you, since I betrothed you to one husband, to present you as a pure virgin to Christ.
So if were taken up in the air and then are in heaven and we are the Bride the only issue is whether the wedding feast is in heaven or not.

then the feast on kings, mighty men etc. back on earth. what about the verbiage are you grappling with? Its very, very easy to see that the bride in heaven has been adorned to go to the wedding feast, and that that wedding feast is back on earth at Armageddon, I mean its a Super, Jesus shows us feasting on wicked men, its like basic 101 prophecy, its just done in metaphoric code as is all of the book of Revelation.

Seems like heaven would be a more glorious place for a party.

This is all about us the church leaving heaven to attend the Marriage Super which is Armageddon.

So your opinion is basically that the great marriage feast of the King of all universes and His Bride is watching dead bodies get eaten by birds. OK

In a traditional Jewish Wedding, when they reach their new home, the groom brings the bride into the bridal chamber where the marriage is consummated. After the marriage is consummated, the groom announces it to all the wedding guests. For seven more days, the bride and groom remain in the bridal chamber and are waited upon by the wedding party.

I am not sure we can take Jewish weddings too far in this comparison

Then comes the Marriage Super !! All Jesus is doing is giving us a simple picture of how his bride will have victory of the wicked, he does it by using the old Jewish Wedding customs, he's telling us we will be in his fathers house 7 years (days) we will consummate the marriage by being faithful and loving Christ, he then announces the bride has made herself ready, that is IMHO.

If the celebration is in heaven, and we return with Jesus, then we see the destruction of the wicked as well.

where this is not connecting with you, I have done a dissertation on the "Jewish Wedding Pattern" so I am pretty hip on the subject. The bride only makes herself ready after being in the wedding chambers with the groom for the full 7 days, then comes the feast or marriage super.

What makes anyone ready to be saved and with Jesus? It is accepting His free gift of salvation that He paid for in our place. So I think both the fine linen and making ourselves ready are completely about having received Jesus. (as opposed to brushing our hair and dressing up and rehearsing etc in heaven for seven days)

So, all we have to do is understand the picture he's painting, in order to do so we have to study the customs he's referring unto. So, after 7 years in heaven the bride returns with Jesus, but for what purpose?

There are no seven years in a Jewish wedding are there? Besides who is to say that the Rapture was not seven days before the last seven years started?

Well, to feast on their enemies, I can you see it now? as I return with Christ, a fellow brother my side, who was burned at the stake by Rome, who sees this evil Beast Kingdom destroyed by the Master Jesus, and Satan and all his Demons locked in the bottomless pit. That is our marriage feast. That is the picture Jesus is painting. We don't eat people, its metaphoric, we get victory, whereas their greed, lust and hate gets them an eternity in hell.

I was thinking more of a great celebration feast in heaven where we finally get to see Jesus, and all our loved ones who had died before, and the bible heroes and where we are rewarded with crowns and whatever at the judgment seat of Jesus. Then, for a honeymoon, we return to earth with Him, and see the end of all enemies and help Him rule on earth for 1000 years.

Yes I understand the 1000 years starts when Jesus returns, but the Bride does not rule on earth with Jesus for 1000 years, read Rev. 20:4 very carefully.


Here is why: See my point above? I bolded and underlined the key points. Get it yet? Only the Martyrs of the 70th week (THEY) liven and reign with Jesus on this earth for his 1000 year reign. We have other things to do no doubt, like help finishing of New Jerusalem no doubt, thus as it descends it is called the bride of Christ, because we descend in it, why else call a city the bride?

I don't see anything in your post here bolded. However I think there are two suppers one for the Bride and one for the wicked.

Revelation 20:4
And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Who are on those thrones judging? Know ye not that we shall judge angels? If we came down with Jesus and already had our crowns how could it not be us? That means the only group there would not be the tribulation saints that were made alive when He returned.

1 cor 6:2 Or do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if the world is to be judged by you, are you incompetent to try trivial cases?
Where Jesus is there will we be also. When He returns to earth we will too. When He rules and judges, so will we with Him. Having believers from the last seven years join us in that does not mean only they will be here with Jesus ruling.

Yes, we judge the Martyrs here, but remember, the second resurrection is 1000 years after this, so all raised and judged here are of the first resurrection, so the judgment here will be varied and more than likely giving assignments and adornments et al.

Much like what happened for the Bride in heaven already

This is why knowing the Jewish Customs Jesus is speaking about is a must brother.

Is there something about a nice feast in heaven that opposes Jewish customs?

We know God married Israel long ago, we know the Church is Jesus' bride, we know Jacob had two brides, the forced in Leah and the preferred in Rachel.

Can you show where it mentions the brides of Jesus around when He returns?

14 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.


Yes, most do not grasp this in full. Seal #5 sees Jesus telling the Martyrs they must wait for all their brother to be killed as they were and for a little season to be over meaning the Anti-Christs 42 month reign of terror, before they will get vengeance. Then in Rev. 20:4 we see them only raised after the 70t week.

So, if you agree with that (hmmm) who are those seen in Rev. 7:9-17 who came out of great tribulation?

I think it says right in the passages who they are. Those are those who were killed in the tribulation now in heaven. Much like how there are many many dead Christians in heaven as we speak. They will return with Jesus at the RAPTURE to receive, like us, their new eternal bodies! The dead in Christ will be the first to rise.

Because no one can go the the wedding party after the 5 virgins have entered, the other 5 will be locked out!! Pssstt, they are really the Pre Trip Raptured church who came out of great tribulation, not the greatest ever, just great tribulation, which saw millions of deaths.

I see, so rather than seeing them as those who came out of the great tribulation
Revelation 7:14
And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

--You see them as Christians taken up before the tribulation.

There is a scene in heaven, set in the time of the tribulation where we see this

10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

Did you think these were pre trib Christians as well?

 

[Fisherking]

So if were taken up in the air and then are in heaven and we are the Bride the only issue is whether the wedding feast is in heaven or not.

Seems like heaven would be a more glorious place for a party.

The book of Revelation is easy for me to interpret, now anyway, so these other things are no-brainers tbh. Why do you take the marriage super as literal? Jesus is teaching us life lessons by using the Jewish Wedding Pattern, the same way he does in Rev. 14 by using the Three Harvest Festivals. It is simply the Harvest Chapter: The 144,000 is a code for all Israel who repents, just like the Woman in Rev. 12, she is waiting for Jesus on Mt. Zion, but not really, Israel will really be in the Petra/Bozrah area when Jesus returns, basically this shows Jesus Harvesting Israel, the Wheat at the very end and it shows him also Harvesting the Wicked-Grapes at the Wine-press of God's Wrath in verses 17-20(remember, the tares and wheat grow together until the end).

So, where is the Barley Harvest which always comes first? Well, in vs. 14 Jesus gives St. John the first "cinematic flashback" in history and shows us the Pre Trib Raptured church being Raptured by himself from upon a cloud !! We are the Barley harvest. We are of course not Barley, Israeli's who repent are not Wheat, and wicked men are not grapes, is just metaphors and parables.

We will spend 7 years in Heaven (a day is as unto a year in Prophecy) as the bride, which represents a committed relationship. Even the betrothal is followed to a tee in our relationship with Jesus, most people just do not understand this in full.

Let me give you a rundown on some material I have studied to get the gist of my point(s) on the bride and groom and the patterns we can find in "The Jewish Wedding Traditions". This is wee bit off course and thus a little "longwinded" so to speak so I will continue with another post to answer the rest of your reply to me, but I think its very important to show how God/Jesus shows us things by using examples and parables, we have to be very keen and real read, and well prayed up to see and be shown these things. God did not just use all of these things like Jewish Wedding, Bride, and Groom stuff for no reason, Jesus was painting us a picture of things to come. And sometimes he said them where if you put them all in sequence, like below, the bigger picture then becomes very clear.

Selection of the Bride
Jewish Wedding - The Son chooses the Bride – the Father makes the arrangements
Church - John 15:16 – “You did not choose Me, but I chose you . . .”

The Bride Price established
Jewish Wedding - The father of the bride must be reimbursed for the loss of his daughter.
Church - I Corinthians 6:20 - “For you were bought with a price.” The Bride price was paid when Jesus died

The Betrothal
Jewish Wedding - More than mere “engagement”, it was a permanent arrangement. ( Joseph and Mary.)
Church – The attachment of the Church to the Lord is also permanent, and forever. (John 10:28)

The Marriage Contract
Jewish Wedding – A written agreement committing each party to the marriage.
Church - The New Covenant (Jeremiah 31:31-34) is our written agreement containing the promises of God.

The Bride must consent
Jewish Wedding – This is not entirely an arranged marriage; the bride must agree.
Church – “He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved;” (Mark 16:16) (Romans 10:9)

The Bridal Gift and the Cup of the Covenant
Jewish Wedding – A glass of wine is taken upon the signing of the contract.
Church – Each time we gather around the Lord’s Table, we remember the “contract.” “And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave [it] to them, saying, Drink ye all of it; For this is my blood of the new testament (covenant), which is shed for many for the remission of sins.” (Matthew 26:27-28)
Jewish Wedding – The Bride is given a gift by the groom.
Church - The Holy Spirit is given by Jesus –– “Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.” (Acts 2:38) This, of course, occurred on the Day of Pentecost.

The Ceremonial Purification of the Bride
Jewish Wedding - The next step for the Bride after she is betrothed is a ceremonial cleansing. In Biblical times the Bride would use a Mikvah, which was pool of water, in which she would immerse herself.
Church - Acts 2:41 – “Then those who gladly received his word were baptized (immersed); and that day about three thousand souls were added [to them].”

The Groom would prepare a room for the Bride in his father’s house
Church - John 14:3 – “I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself.”

The father of the groom determines when the room is ready. The groom does not determine the time of the wedding. “But of that day and hour knoweth no [man], no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.” (Matthew 24:36)

The Bride is consecrated and set apart
Church I Peter 2:9 – “But ye a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people

The Groom returns with a shout, “Behold, the bridegroom comes!”
Church - I Thessalonians 4:16 – “For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God.”

The Bride and Groom go to the wedding chamber.
Church – This period when the Bride and Groom spend time together seems to show that the Bride of Jesus will be with Him in Heaven. This appears to indicate a pre-Tribulation gathering of the Church, and is described in Isaiah 26:20; “Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast.” Praise the Lord!

The Marriage Supper
Church – The Bride and Groom are wedded then return to earth together. (Revelation 19:7-18)

So, sometimes Jesus gives us hints over and over, yet we have to put these hints together ourselves. We are not really eating, we are feasting on our enemies, remember Seal #5? They are getting that vengeance. But in reality, Jesus just speaks victory with us by his side, we do not attack their flesh, just like Israel are not really wheat.

 

[truthpls]

The book of Revelation is easy for me to interpret, now anyway, so these other things are no-brainers tbh. Why do you take the marriage super as literal?

I see no reason not to.

Jesus is teaching us life lessons by using the Jewish Wedding Pattern, the same way he does in Rev. 14 by using the Three Harvest Festivals. It is simply the Harvest Chapter: The 144,000 is a code for all Israel who repents,

Oh oh I am seeing a pattern here. Waving away things. We were given specific numbers and specific tribes.

just like the Woman in Rev. 12, she is waiting for Jesus on Mt. Zion, but not really,

I did not see the woman on a mountain? She was in heaven.

Israel will really be in the Petra/Bozrah area when Jesus returns,

So why surround Jerusalem with armies?

basically this shows Jesus Harvesting Israel, the Wheat at the very end and it shows him also Harvesting the Wicked-Grapes at the Wine-press of God's Wrath in verses 17-20(remember, the tares and wheat grow together until the end).

There is more to the harvest than Israel

So, where is the Barley Harvest which always comes first? Well, in vs. 14 Jesus gives St. John the first "cinematic flashback" in history and shows us the Pre Trib Raptured church being Raptured by himself from upon a cloud !! We are the Barley harvest. We are of course not Barley, Israeli's who repent are not Wheat, and wicked men are not grapes, is just metaphors and parables.

There is a barley harvest in prophesy?

We will spend 7 years in Heaven (a day is as unto a year in Prophecy)

Not really a day is a day unless it is in the context of a period of time such as the day of the Lord.

as the bride, which represents a committed relationship. Even the betrothal is followed to a tee in our relationship with Jesus, most people just do not understand this in full.

Even if seven years was supposed to really mean seven days, who says that we are Raptured seven years to the day till the end of the tribulation? Maybe. Maybe not

Let me give you a rundown on some material I have studied to get the gist of my point(s) on the bride and groom and the patterns we can find in "The Jewish Wedding Traditions". This is wee bit off course and thus a little "longwinded" so to speak so I will continue with another post to answer the rest of your reply to me, but I think its very important to show how God/Jesus shows us things by using examples and parables, we have to be very keen and real read, and well prayed up to see and be shown these things. God did not just use all of these things like Jewish Wedding, Bride, and Groom stuff for no reason, Jesus was painting us a picture of things to come. And sometimes he said them where if you put them all in sequence, like below, the bigger picture then becomes very clear.

Too bad you wave so many things away or I might be tempted to look at your theories.

Selection of the Bride
Jewish Wedding - The Son chooses the Bride – the Father makes the arrangements
Church - John 15:16 – “You did not choose Me, but I chose you . . .”

The Bride also chooses Jesus or she would not be saved or the Bride.

The Bride Price established
Jewish Wedding - The father of the bride must be reimbursed for the loss of his daughter.
Church - I Corinthians 6:20 - “For you were bought with a price.” The Bride price was paid when Jesus died

Right. He paid the price so that whosoever wants to can be saved thus becoming the Bride of Christ.

The Betrothal
Jewish Wedding - More than mere “engagement”, it was a permanent arrangement. ( Joseph and Mary.)
Church – The attachment of the Church to the Lord is also permanent, and forever. (John 10:28)

The Marriage Contract
Jewish Wedding – A written agreement committing each party to the marriage.
Church - The New Covenant (Jeremiah 31:31-34) is our written agreement containing the promises of God.

The Bride must consent
Jewish Wedding – This is not entirely an arranged marriage; the bride must agree.
Church – “He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved;” (Mark 16:16) (Romans 10:9)

The Bridal Gift and the Cup of the Covenant
Jewish Wedding – A glass of wine is taken upon the signing of the contract.
Church – Each time we gather around the Lord’s Table, we remember the “contract.” “And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave [it] to them, saying, Drink ye all of it; For this is my blood of the new testament (covenant), which is shed for many for the remission of sins.” (Matthew 26:27-28)

There also will be wine at the marriage supper in heaven.

Jewish Wedding – The Bride is given a gift by the groom.
Church - The Holy Spirit is given by Jesus –– “Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.” (Acts 2:38) This, of course, occurred on the Day of Pentecost.

At the wedding rewards and crowns are given out.

The Ceremonial Purification of the Bride
Jewish Wedding - The next step for the Bride after she is betrothed is a ceremonial cleansing. In Biblical times the Bride would use a Mikvah, which was pool of water, in which she would immerse herself.
Church - Acts 2:41 – “Then those who gladly received his word were baptized (immersed); and that day about three thousand souls were added [to them].”

We are cleansed by the blood of Jesus

The Groom would prepare a room for the Bride in his father’s house
Church - John 14:3 – “I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself.”

The father of the groom determines when the room is ready. The groom does not determine the time of the wedding. “But of that day and hour knoweth no [man], no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.” (Matthew 24:36)

WE are in that house in heaven at the marriage supper

The Bride is consecrated and set apart
Church I Peter 2:9 – “But ye a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people

The Groom returns with a shout, “Behold, the bridegroom comes!”
Church - I Thessalonians 4:16 – “For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God.”

The Bride and Groom go to the wedding chamber.
Church – This period when the Bride and Groom spend time together seems to show that the Bride of Jesus will be with Him in Heaven. This appears to indicate a pre-Tribulation gathering of the Church, and is described in Isaiah 26:20; “Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast.” Praise the Lord!

Or in heaven at the supper of the Lamb. While the tribulation is going on till it is over. Precisely when Jesus and us return to earth - when the indignation is overpast.

The Marriage Supper
Church – The Bride and Groom are wedded then return to earth together. (Revelation 19:7-18)

So, sometimes Jesus gives us hints over and over, yet we have to put these hints together ourselves. We are not really eating, we are feasting on our enemies, remember Seal #5? They are getting that vengeance. But in reality, Jesus just speaks victory with us by his side, we do not attack their flesh, just like Israel are not really wheat.

I prefer really eating and a celebration in heaven, thanks