How Does One Put A Pre-Trib Rapture Before “The Last Day”?

[truthpls]

Can you show me a verse?

That says we will meet Him in the air?

 

[truthpls]

Where are 7 years mentioned here?

We know the length of that last week of Daniel and how the abomination is set up in the middle of that seven years and lasts 3 1/2 years. We also have it in months and days.

 

[AYM]

We know the length of that last week of Daniel and how the abomination is set up in the middle of that seven years and lasts 3 1/2 years. We also have it in months and days.

There's a lot to unpack here. Are you referring to the 70 weeks prophecy of Daniel 9 when you refer to "last week"? Where are these months and days? Where in Daniel 9 does it refer to the tribulation?

Also - to your other statement, that's referring to the rapture. We have a rapture in Matthew 24:30-31. We get a mention of the abomination of desolation with respect to the tribulation. Where's this other rapture?

 

[truthpls]

There's a lot to unpack here. Are you referring to the 70 weeks prophecy of Daniel 9 when you refer to "last week"? Where are these months and days? Where in Daniel 9 does it refer to the tribulation?

The years are given in Daniel. Also that in the midst of the week will the abomination be placed. From that time we know there are 42 months till the end. Only 69 of the seventy groups of 7 years have been fulfilled with one left to go. That is the last seven years of history where the Great Tribulation starts in the middle.
Daniel 12:11
And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

Jesus spoke of Daniel and this abomination Daniel mentioned. Revelation also gives the time of the Tribulation.

Also - to your other statement, that's referring to the rapture. We have a rapture in Matthew 24:30-31. We get a mention of the abomination of desolation with respect to the tribulation. Where's this other rapture?

Mat 24:31 is about His return to earth as I said. That is not the Rapture. You could call it another Rapture just as we might call the rescue of the saints at the end of the 1000 years yet another rapture. The big event that starts the day of the Lord where we all meet Him in the air forever, including the dead in Christ is that event in the twinkling of an eye Paul spoke about that people call the Rapture

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Because of the things that happen in that day. End time events all. We also have the new heavens and earth happen in the day of the Lord. So we know it is a long period as man considers it, but as Peter says to God 1000 years is like a day.

This is a very weak argument. You have nothing to show that the verses you referenced refer to the last day or day of the Lord. Nothing. Also, Peter saying to the Lord a day is like a thousand years and a thousand years is like a day has nothing to do with the duration of the day of the Lord whatsoever. The context of 2 Peter 3:8 is in relation to how long it's taking for the Lord to return and Peter indicated that to the Lord it's not taking long at all since no amount of time, including a 24 hour day or a thousand years, makes any difference to Him. And that is because He exists outside of time.

The promise about how we will have a new heaven one day as he mentioned. Now if Peter had said we look to the promise of His return to earth, well that would be referring to another promise! There are lots of promises. All of them good.

Peter associated the ushering in of the new heavens and new earth directly with "His promise". If you set your doctrinal bias aside then you would acknowledge that "his promise" refers to the promise of His coming that Peter had referenced earlier in verses 4 and 9 (in 2 Peter 3).

Ok, so don't get your shorts in a knot if Jesus does not return this week. Great advice,

I guess I'm dealing with a child here. That has nothing to do with why I posted 2 Peter 3:9. I asked you what promise you think Peter was referencing there. He was referencing the promise of the Lord's second coming that was first referenced in verse 4, right? So, why would that not be the case in 2 Peter 3:13 as well?

The TIME a thief comes is unknown and the time of the Rapture is unknown. Simple.

What you simply miss is that scripture indicates that His coming like a thief is not only when the rapture occurs, but also when the global destruction described in passages like 1 Thess 5:2-3 and 2 Peter 3:10-12 occurs. Those passages clearly indicate that global destruction will occur upon the arrival of Christ and the day of the Lord. But, you put that off until 1,000+ years later which is not indicated in the text whatsoever.

So, after we are Raptured and the last seven years of wrath (with the greatest wrath at the end of that) despite claims of safety and peace the tribulation and all the wrath in it will come. Simple.

You are simply ignoring 2 Peter 3:10-12 which shows the wrath that accompanies the day of the Lord as being global and resulting in the burning up of the entire earth.

The wicked still here face the troubles. Even the new believers of that time will have terrible times and even face death. We of course face...heaven! Simple

What's simple is seeing that you draw all kinds of conclusions without providing any scriptural support for them. It's difficult to take you seriously because of that.

The real final fire, no. There is also some fire and wrath and vengeance poured out on the wicked trying to fight Him when He returns.

That's not what is indicated in 2 Peter 3:10-12. Where are you getting your beliefs from? Use scripture to back up your claims.

Being in the Rapture avoids the wrath of God, also called the tribulation. Is that not plain?

What's plain to see is that you have not spent nearly enough time studying these things. The wrath being avoided is global in scope and occurs on the day Christ returns, as can be seen in passages like Luke 21:25-36, Matthew 24:35-39, 2 Thess 1:7-10 and 2 Peter 3:10-12.

Well being saved is required and also being right with Him so we are more ready to meet Him. That is the point.

The point is also made in relation to avoiding the wrath that Paul describes in 1 Thess 5:2-3 and that Peter describes in 2 Peter 3:10-12, but you think that wrath doesn't even occur until 1,000+ years after Christ's return. That makes no sense.

All we need to concern ourselves with is thanking Him for salvation and coming to take us away before the wrath. BY being ready to meet Him and be taken up we escape the wrath.

The wrath to escape is described in 2 Peter 3:10-12, but you say that doesn't even occur until 1,000+ years after the rapture, which makes no sense.

Pet 3:10 is about after we go up to be with Jesus. The wrath of God. Ready or not if we are saved we go up to meet Him. Being ready is something we should do, such as works for Him, because our rewards will be based on works. Not our salvation, that's in the bag.

It's about the wrath of God that will come down when Jesus returns, as is also described in other scriptures like Matthew 24:35-39, 2 Thess 1:7-10, 1 Thess 5:2-3 and Revelation 19:11-21.

The 1000 years is IN the day of the Lord and at the end of it is when the earth is burned and a new earth created.

What evidence do you have to support this claim? All I see is your words in your post and no scripture. I can't take that seriously.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Mat 24:31 is about His return to earth as I said. That is not the Rapture. You could call it another Rapture just as we might call the rescue of the saints at the end of the 1000 years yet another rapture. The big event that starts the day of the Lord where we all meet Him in the air forever, including the dead in Christ is that event in the twinkling of an eye Paul spoke about that people call the Rapture

You say Matthew 24:31 is not the rapture and yet the similarities between Matthew 24:29-31 and 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17 are obvious. Let's compare the two along with Mark 13:24-27, which is a parallel passage to Matthew 24:29-31 but has one added detail which the Matthew 24 passage doesn't include.

1 Thessalonians 4:14 For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15 According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

Mark 13:24 “But in those days, following that distress,“‘the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; 25 the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’ 26 “At that time people will see the Son of Man coming in clouds with great power and glory. 27 And he will send his angels and gather his elect from the four winds, from the ends of the earth to the ends of the heavens.

Matthew 24:29 “Immediately after the distress of those days “‘the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’ 30 “Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory. 31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

In both the 1 Thess 4 passage and the Olivet Discourse passages, it describes Jesus coming from heaven and describes His people being gathered both from heaven and from the earth. And a loud trumpet call is described in each as well. But, these are somehow not describing the same event? How can that be? If those aren't describing the same event, then no 2 passages in all of scripture describe the same event. But, they clearly are describing the same event. Yet, the pre-trib rapture view inexplicably denies this.

Scripture never indicates that Jesus will come down from heaven more than once in the future. In Acts 1:9-11 it says He will come down from heaven in the same manner as He went up to heaven. That's it. No mention of Him going back to heaven again and then coming down from heaven again after that. That is simply not taught anywhere in scripture.

 

[truthpls]

This is a very weak argument.

Yet another example is

Isa 14:1 For the Lord will have mercy on Jacob, and will yet choose Israel, and set them in their own land: and the strangers shall be joined with them, and they shall cleave to the house of Jacob.

This is in the day of the Lord as we see from the context in previous verses

9 Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.

. Also, Peter saying to the Lord a day is like a thousand years and a thousand years is like a day has nothing to do with the duration of the day of the Lord whatsoever.

It just happens to be in the same chapter as the day of the Lord. I never got doctrinal about that one, though it eerily fits.

Peter associated the ushering in of the new heavens and new earth directly with "His promise".

There is more than one wonderful promise about many wonderful things

If you set your doctrinal bias aside then you would acknowledge that "his promise" refers to the promise of His coming that Peter had referenced earlier in verses 4 and 9 (in 2 Peter 3).

We could connect it in the way that our Rapture kicks off that day of the Lord. Within that period are many things that happen, such as how at the end of the millennium He makes us a whole new heaven and earth. Wonderful promises of things to come.

I asked you what promise you think Peter was referencing there. He was referencing the promise of the Lord's second coming that was first referenced in verse 4, right? So, why would that not be the case in 2 Peter 3:13 as well?

Here's the deal, the verses are talking about the time reserved when the earth is reserved for fire and a new earth and heaven created. It makes it clear that that is within the day spoken about. So when is the 'coming of that day?
2 Peter 3:12
[ Read Chapter | Listen to Audio | View Context | Multi-Translations | Interlinear Bible | Study Tools ]


Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, (wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?)
We look forward to the start of that day when He comes. Not to the horrors of the tribulation the world will go through so much.

What you simply miss is that scripture indicates that His coming like a thief is not only when the rapture occurs, but also when the global destruction described in passages like 1 Thess 5:2-3 and 2 Peter 3:10-12 occurs.

No.
1 Thessalonians 5:2
For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

1 Thessalonians 5:3
For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

That days COMES as a thief in the night, unexpectedly. After that, they say peace and safety which is compared to that woman in labor. Pinpointing it to the last seven years.

Those passages clearly indicate that global destruction will occur upon the arrival of Christ and the day of the Lord. But, you put that off until 1,000+ years later which is not indicated in the text whatsoever.

No, it says His coming is first (for us) then the destruction.

You are simply ignoring 2 Peter 3:10-12 which shows the wrath that accompanies the day of the Lord as being global and resulting in the burning up of the entire earth.

No, you conflate the coming (Rapture) in which, wherein, which will also include the destruction of the earth and a new one created at the end of that period. So you confuse the end with the beginning.

You have already admitted why you cannot see all that is in the day of the Lord. You want to wave away the millennium. We get it.

 

[truthpls]

You say Matthew 24:31 is not the rapture and yet the similarities between Matthew 24:29-31 and 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17 are obvious. Let's compare the two along with Mark 13:24-27, which is a parallel passage to Matthew 24:29-31 but has one added detail which the Matthew 24 passage doesn't include.

Matthew 24:29
Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

The timing is clear there. The people will not be unaware of His coming at all and will be counting the very days to it. We are given the days, months and years from the time the abomination was set up. Nothing similar about 'knowing' and 'not knowing' when He will return.

Scripture never indicates that Jesus will come down from heaven more than once in the future. In Acts 1:9-11 it says He will come down from heaven in the same manner as He went up to heaven. That's it. No mention of Him going back to heaven again and then coming down from heaven again after that. That is simply not taught anywhere in scripture.

He only returns TO the earth once!

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Yet another example is

Isa 14:1 For the Lord will have mercy on Jacob, and will yet choose Israel, and set them in their own land: and the strangers shall be joined with them, and they shall cleave to the house of Jacob.

This is in the day of the Lord as we see from the context in previous verses

9 Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.

You need to understand that in some of the old testament prophecies the prophets jumped around in time and not everything written in them is meant to be seen in chronological order. Why do we not see the scenario you believe in described anywhere in the New Testament? Instead, we have several passages which speak of Christ destroying all of His enemies when He returns which doesn't allow for any mortals to populate a supposed earthly millennial kingdom.

It just happens to be in the same chapter as the day of the Lord. I never got doctrinal about that one, though it eerily fits.

It doesn't fit at all. I showed you the context of 2 Peter 3:8 which has absolutely nothing to do with the duration of the day of the Lord, but rather has to do with how long it is taking for the Lord to return.

There is more than one wonderful promise about many wonderful things

Only doctrinal bias can prevent someone from seeing that the promise referenced in 2 Peter 3 verses 4, 9 and 13 all refer to the same promise of His future coming.

Here's the deal, the verses are talking about the time reserved when the earth is reserved for fire and a new earth and heaven created. It makes it clear that that is within the day spoken about. So when is the 'coming of that day?

That day comes when Jesus returns and the text indicates that the fiery destruction comes immediately upon His arrival, not many years later. That's why it says the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. If the destruction and wrath described in relation to it doesn't actually happen until 1,000+ years later then it makes no sense to say that it comes like a thief in the night. As Jesus Himself indicated, it will come like a thief in the night particularly to unbelievers because they are not even expecting Him to come at all while believers are expecting Him to come.

2 Peter 3:12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, (wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?)
We look forward to the start of that day when He comes. Not to the horrors of the tribulation the world will go through so much.

No.
1 Thessalonians 5:2
For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

1 Thessalonians 5:3
For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

That days COMES as a thief in the night, unexpectedly. After that, they say peace and safety which is compared to that woman in labor. Pinpointing it to the last seven years.

What? It does not say that they say peace and safety after the day of the Lord comes. Not even close. It very clearly says that they say peace and safety and THEN the sudden destruction comes upon them. You read everything with extreme doctrinal bias which causes you to miss obvious things like this.

No, it says His coming is first (for us) then the destruction.

We are first caught up to Him at His one and only future coming and then He destroys all of His enemies. It's all one event. What would be the point of Him delaying the destruction of His enemies after He descends from heaven? There is none.

No, you conflate the coming (Rapture) in which, wherein, which will also include the destruction of the earth and a new one created at the end of that period. So you confuse the end with the beginning.

I believe you are confused about everything.

You have already admitted why you cannot see all that is in the day of the Lord. You want to wave away the millennium. We get it.

I get that you haven't studied all of these things nearly enough up to this point. You even are resorting to completely twisting what is written in passages like 1 Thess 5:2-3. Please ask God for wisdom (James 1:5-7).

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Matthew 24:29
Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

The timing is clear there. The people will not be unaware of His coming at all and will be counting the very days to it.

What? You think what is described there will go on over a significant period of time? Go back and read two verses prior to that which indicates that He will come as quickly as lightning flashes from the east to the west. There is no indication that what is described in verse 29 will go on for days. That's silly. Once there is a sign that He is coming, He will come quickly.

You didn't bother addressing anything I said regarding the similarities between the Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27 passages from the Olivet Discourse and 1 Thess 4:14-17. Why not? How can those passages be so similar but not be about the same event? Explain that.

We are given the days, months and years from the time the abomination was set up. Nothing similar about 'knowing' and 'not knowing' when He will return.

Jesus said that no one knows the day or hour of the coming of the Son of Man which He said will occur AFTER the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31). So, you are contradicting Jesus Himself by saying that we can know the day or hour ahead of time.

He only returns TO the earth once!

Show me where scripture teaches that He will descend from heaven more than once in the future.

 

[truthpls]

You need to understand that in some of the old testament prophecies the prophets jumped around in time and not everything written in them is meant to be seen in chronological order. Why do we not see the scenario you believe in described anywhere in the New Testament? Instead, we have several passages which speak of Christ destroying all of His enemies when He returns which doesn't allow for any mortals to populate a supposed earthly millennial kingdom.

It is not a scenario it is the future given in prophesy by God.

It doesn't fit at all. I showed you the context of 2 Peter 3:8 which has absolutely nothing to do with the duration of the day of the Lord, but rather has to do with how long it is taking for the Lord to return.

Yes, it fits like a glove, your context is way off. The reason is you are trying to wave away the millennium as existing so you try to shove it all into a single day.

That day comes when Jesus returns and the text indicates that the fiery destruction comes immediately upon His arrival, not many years later.

Only when you wave away the millennium could it appear like that to you. Sorry, our thousand year rule on earth with Jesus is not going anywhere. You are wasting energy waving.

That's why it says the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. If the destruction and wrath described in relation to it doesn't actually happen until 1,000+ years later then it makes no sense to say that it comes like a thief in the night. As Jesus Himself indicated, it will come like a thief in the night particularly to unbelievers because they are not even expecting Him to come at all while believers are expecting Him to come.

Yes, the destruction is after and not the reason we look forward to the coming of that day.

What? It does not say that they say peace and safety after the day of the Lord comes. Not even close. It very clearly says that they say peace and safety and THEN the sudden destruction comes upon them. You read everything with extreme doctrinal bias which causes you to miss obvious things like this.

It says this, exactly
2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.


3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

So when THEY say peace and safety THEN comes sudden destruction. So if they say peace and safety after we are Raptured, and then the destruction in the tribulation hits them, that fits. It does not say what you suggested. We are gone, I would think, before they even say peace and safety. So when they get the destruction it is after the day of the Lord (started by the Rapture) has already come.

We are first caught up to Him at His one and only future coming and then He destroys all of His enemies.

No, we are WITH Him at His only coming DOWN to the earth! WE were taken up to meet Him in the AIR long before that.

It's all one event. What would be the point of Him delaying the destruction of His enemies after He descends from heaven? There is none.

The diagnosis stands. By attempting to wave away the 1000 years, you have conflated and confused prophesies resulting in actually not understanding what you read.

 

[truthpls]

What? You think what is described there will go on over a significant period of time? Go back and read two verses prior to that which indicates that He will come as quickly as lightning flashes from the east to the west. There is no indication that what is described in verse 29 will go on for days. That's silly. Once there is a sign that He is coming, He will come quickly.

The verse was about Jesus returning to the earth. After He returns He stands upon the mount of Olives, later comes from Bozrah soaked in blood, judges nations, rescues the tribulation saints, destroys enemies, etc. So His actual return is fast, of course. The millennium starts here also. So, before the new earth and heavens at the end of that 1000 years a lot happens.

You didn't bother addressing anything I said regarding the similarities between the Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27 passages from the Olivet Discourse and 1 Thess 4:14-17. Why not? How can those passages be so similar but not be about the same event? Explain that.

Maybe be more specific. Naturally if someone cannot differentiate between times and events thing could sound similar.

Jesus said that no one knows the day or hour of the coming of the Son of Man which He said will occur AFTER the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31). So, you are contradicting Jesus Himself by saying that we can know the day or hour ahead of time.

The coming in the air to get us is when we do not know the time for. The coming TO earth believers of the tribulation will know. He spelled it out often for us, in years, and months and even days! You are wrong.

Show me where scripture teaches that He will descend from heaven more than once in the future.

Once in the air and once down to earth. Then, probably hundreds of thousands of times, like us, since our home is New Jerusalem and we will just probably work here and commute!

 

[AYM]

Matthew 24:29
Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

The timing is clear there. The people will not be unaware of His coming at all and will be counting the very days to it. We are given the days, months and years from the time the abomination was set up. Nothing similar about 'knowing' and 'not knowing' when He will return.

He only returns TO the earth once!

But Matthew 24:36 says:

36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

How can people be counting the very days to it when they (and we) don't know the day?

EDIT:

Matthew 24:29
Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

The timing is clear there. The people will not be unaware of His coming at all and will be counting the very days to it. We are given the days, months and years from the time the abomination was set up. Nothing similar about 'knowing' and 'not knowing' when He will return.

He only returns TO the earth once!

I missed this, sorry. Are you getting this from Daniel 12:11-12?

 

[truthpls]

But Matthew 24:36 says:

36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

How can people be counting the very days to it when they (and we) don't know the day?

What was He talking about just before that?

Matthew 24:32
Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:

So, in perspective then, when will we know summer or His coming for us is near? Then He confirms it by saying that the folks alive in general at the time, who start to see the signs will live till the end when all is fulfilled. So we know that this is before the tribulation when just the signs are starting to come like leaves on a tree. What happens to kick of the day of the Lord and tribulation? The Rapture! So, when we see the signs we know the Rapture is near, as well as all the things that will follow that. Since the Rapture comes unexpectedly as a thief in the night, it is great that He then reminds us in verse 36 that no one knows the day or hour. Simple

 

[AYM]

What was He talking about just before that?

Matthew 24:32
Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:

So, in perspective then, when will we know summer or His coming for us is near? Then He confirms it by saying that the folks alive in general at the time, who start to see the signs will live till the end when all is fulfilled. So we know that this is before the tribulation when just the signs are starting to come like leaves on a tree. What happens to kick of the day of the Lord and tribulation? The Rapture! So, when we see the signs we know the Rapture is near, as well as all the things that will follow that. Since the Rapture comes unexpectedly as a thief in the night, it is great that He then reminds us in verse 36 that no one knows the day or hour. Simple

No, not so simple since you just moved the goalposts. But that's good if your viewpoint is evolving!

‭‭Matthew‬ ‭24:33‬ ‭KJV‬‬
[33] so likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.

So first, the parable doesn't come into play until we see "all these things". That means the tribulation, abomination of desolation, the sun/moon darkened. We see all these things, and then we know the rapture is near. How near? That we don't know, because we don't know the day or the hour, but it's at the doors. Could be 30 minutes, could be 30 years.

Once again, nowhere in this chapter does the rapture kick off the tribulation. It's an event that happens after "all these things".

 

[truthpls]

No, not so simple since you just moved the goalposts. But that's good if your viewpoint is evolving!

‭‭Matthew‬ ‭24:33‬ ‭KJV‬‬
[33] so likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.

So first, the parable doesn't come into play until we see "all these things". That means the tribulation, abomination of desolation, the sun/moon darkened. We see all these things, and then we know the rapture is near. How near? That we don't know, because we don't know the day or the hour, but it's at the doors. Could be 30 minutes, could be 30 years.

The things span many years. The end of the things is Jesus returning right after the tribulation. Before that the fleeing once they see the abomination. Before the at gospel being preached and love waxing cold. Before that false prophets all over, and before that families betraying one another and hating each other. Before that getting delivered to the justice system and arrested and killed. Also being hated worldwide by nations. Before that wars and famines and pestilences and earthquakes in many places. These happen after some previous signs but Jesus had said the end was not yet for them.
Thankfully in the bible we have more than one passage where things are spoken about so we do not need to be confused. In Mat 24 it says when leaves start we know summer is near, like the signs start, and we know it is near. To clarify this another gospel spells it out for you

Luke 21:28
And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

So when is our redemption near? When signs start. That means the Rapture, our redemption is near the start of the signs not the end!

But when all the things are finished we know that the kingdom is coming to earth.

Luke 21:31 So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.

The Rapture then, OUR redemption is near when we START to see the signs.
His return to earth and the kingdom coming is at the end of all these things.

 

[Timtofly]

And that is because He exists outside of time.

The thousand years of the Lord will come as a thief in the night. Sounds about right. Does it matter if it has been 6 days or 6 thousand years since Adam disobeyed?

Jesus is on earth all day, waiting for the bride to come down at the right moment. How far can you take this wedding analogy? Does the groom and bride walk down the aisle together?

Peter still states the Day of the Lord is coming. Meaning that it did not start 1993 years ago on the Cross. The Cross was 2 days ago. The day of the Lord has not happened, because the works on earth were not burned up at the Cross, nor since then either. The heavens have not dissolved and all the angels come to earth, instead of doing their day jobs as the stars. The Second Coming is Matthew 24:29-31

This happens after Matthew 24:32-33.

Matthew 24:21-28 happens before Matthew 24:15-20.

Matthew 24:15-20 happens before the end in Matthew 24:14.

Matthew gets to the end and then works in reverse order until the parable of the fig tree. There are 4 seperate events mentioned. Do you think the end is just a single moment in time? The parable of the fig tree is an event. It is not a single day that has all 4 events in a few hours of time.

The parable of the fig tree is the defining moment of the generation that will experience all 4 events. Matthew says:

"So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors. Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled."

What is near? The end in verse 14 is the what is near. Certainly one generation did not see everything from the Cross to the end. That would be verses 4-14.

We did not see the AoD, then the great tribulation, then the Second Coming, and then the fig tree blooming. We don't live from the end back through time to the generation that will see the end until the fig tree blooms. So unless you want to play guess the order, then you should probably understand why Matthew got to the end and then gave us 4 events that will define the end for a single generation.


If you don't think these are 4 seperate and really unrelated events, then explain what the term "all these things" means.

"So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors. Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled."

So you tell me what "things" if you don't like the term "events" will happen and in what order. "Events" is not in contradiction to "these things". We just see "events" as happenings and "things" are stuff we collect.

If you don't like the terms AoD, GT, or Second Coming, then give these events a name. You can even put a time reference in there as you obviously don't like the times others state. Because it seems to every one else who are not Amil, you just see everything as a twinkling of an eye and it is all over. And you seem to totally reject the fig tree blooming as defining anything other than spiritual Israel an event you hold happening in the first century. So your "generation" is as indefinite as your "Day of the Lord". It could be a second. It could be thousands of years.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Yes, it fits like a glove, your context is way off. The reason is you are trying to wave away the millennium as existing so you try to shove it all into a single day.

You make claims and then do nothing to back them up. I just can't take that seriously. Let's actually look at the text and see if it supports what you're saying.

2 Peter 3:8 But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day. 9 The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

So, in verse 8 Peter said "With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day.". The verse right after that shows the context of what he was saying. Because of the fact that a day and a thousand years make no difference to the Lord (since He created time and exists outside of it), that is why Peter could say "The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness". This has absolutely nothing to do with the duration of the day of the Lord, but rather has to do with how long it is taking for the Lord to keep His promise of coming back ("his promise" refers back to the promise of His coming mentioned in verse 4). Some try to say He is being slow to come back, but He is not being slow from His eternal perspective where one day and a thousand years are no different to Him.

So, I just showed the context of what 2 Peter 3:8 means. It has nothing to do with the duration of the day of the Lord. You are trying to twist scripture to fit your doctrine, but that is an unacceptable thing to do.

Yes, the destruction is after and not the reason we look forward to the coming of that day.

It says this, exactly
2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.


3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

So when THEY say peace and safety THEN comes sudden destruction. So if they say peace and safety after we are Raptured, and then the destruction in the tribulation hits them, that fits. It does not say what you suggested. We are gone, I would think, before they even say peace and safety. So when they get the destruction it is after the day of the Lord (started by the Rapture) has already come.

You would think? Don't think and make things up, just go by what the text says. It says the sudden destruction occurs AFTER they say peace and safety, not before as you were saying. And it does not say they say peace and safety after we are raptured. That is another thing you are adding that isn't there anywhere in the text.

If you look at 1 Thessalonians 4:14-5:3 and 2 Thessalonians 2:7-10, you can see that the rapture and the destruction of all of Christ's enemies happen at about the same time when Jesus returns. Trying to turn the rapture into a separate event from His coming to destroy His enemies does not make any sense and is not supported by scripture.

No, we are WITH Him at His only coming DOWN to the earth! WE were taken up to meet Him in the AIR long before that.

Where does scripture teach that? Nowhere. If you read 1 Thess 4:14-17, you can see that He has people WITH Him when He descends from heaven just before the rapture occurs and then He has people taken up to meet Him at that point. It says those who are asleep in Him are the ones with Him when He comes on the day of the rapture (1 Thess 4:14)? Who else can that be except for the souls of the dead in Christ? No one will have been changed and have their immortal bodies yet at that point. It will happen on that day of the rapture. So, He will come both WITH and FOR His people on that same day. There is no basis for turning these things into two completely separate events.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

The thousand years of the Lord will come as a thief in the night. Sounds about right.

No, that sounds like complete nonsense. Paul describes what will come at that point is "sudden destruction". How can sudden destruction be stretched out over a thousand years? The destruction that will occur when the day of the Lord arrives will be global and result in the entire earth being burned up (2 Peter 3:10-12). The idea of mortal life continuing on the earth after that point is laughable.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

The verse was about Jesus returning to the earth. After He returns He stands upon the mount of Olives, later comes from Bozrah soaked in blood, judges nations, rescues the tribulation saints, destroys enemies, etc. So His actual return is fast, of course. The millennium starts here also. So, before the new earth and heavens at the end of that 1000 years a lot happens.

How does that line up with 2 Peter 3:10-13 which is said to occur in conjunction with the promise of His second coming? How does that line up with 2 Thess 1:7-10 which has Jesus destroying all of His enemies when He returns while at the same time His people will all be changed to have immortal bodies. What mortals exactly will populate a supposed thousand year earthly kingdom? Jesus indicated that heaven and earth will pass away when He comes resulting in the death of all unbelievers just as occurred in the flood. How does that support your view?

Matthew 24:35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away. 36 “But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. 37 As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 38 For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; 39 and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man.

What Jesus said here lines up with what Peter wrote about in 2nd Peter 3. Like Peter, Jesus indicated that heaven and earth will pass away at His second coming. Peter obviously wrote more details on that. Jesus indicated that just as all unbelievers were killed by the flood in Noah's day "That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man". So, Jesus taught that all unbelievers will be killed at His second coming. How will that happen? Just read 2 Peter 3:10-12. That's how. Using scripture to interpret scripture shows that the premillennial view you believe in by way of taking scriptures out of context cannot be supported since it contradicts so many clear scriptures.

Maybe be more specific. Naturally if someone cannot differentiate between times and events thing could sound similar.

I was very specific in post #167. You just chose not to address what I said. There will not be two separate events when Jesus comes down from heaven with a loud trumpet call and where His people are gathered from both heaven and earth. It's not reasonable at all to conclude that 1 Thess 4:14-17 is not the same event as described in the Olivet Discourse in Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27. And Jesus made it clear that event will occur AFTER the tribulation.

The coming in the air to get us is when we do not know the time for. The coming TO earth believers of the tribulation will know. He spelled it out often for us, in years, and months and even days! You are wrong.

You have NOTHING to support this claim. The event of which we don't know the day or hour includes the passing away of heaven and earth.

Matthew 24:35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away. 36 “But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.

The day or hour of the passing away of heaven and earth not being known is something that Peter indicated in 2 Peter 3:10-12 when he said the day of the Lord, which will bring about the burning up of the heavens and the earth, will come like a thief in the night. Jesus associated that event of which no one knows the day or hour with the coming of the Son of Man (Matt 24:37-39, Matthew 25:1-13) which He said will occur AFTER the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31). The idea that mortal life will continue on after that is not supported by scripture. You have no way of reconciling your view with any of these scripture passages I'm bringing up, so it's no wonder that you don't want to address them.