General anesthesia and consciousness

[Bradskii]

I just have a question. I'm curious about the responses I will get. If anyone has an answer, I'd like to hear it. I've recently decided I will try and be open to information on both sides of the argument.

Recently decided? I would have thought that it was a naturally understood requirement. Anyway, it's good to hear. Now, let's look at your very best example of an NDE that has some verifiable evidence.

 

[All Becomes New]

It is just sheer unadulterated curiosity.

The 17% number comes from a study I have linked multiple times at this point. It's like the first line in the study.

 

[All Becomes New]

Recently decided? I would have thought that it was a naturally understood requirement. Anyway, it's good to hear. Now, let's look at your very best example of an NDE that has some verifiable evidence.

No theories, huh?

 

[Warden_of_the_Storm]

The 17% number comes from a study I have linked multiple times at this point. It's like the first line in the study.

This study? Yeah, he only says 17% but gives no clue of the sample size. And I keep only getting a dead end link when I try and look back through Google Scholar. That's annoying since sample sizes are important for this sort of thing.

 

[All Becomes New]

This study? Yeah, he only says 17% but gives no clue of the sample size. And I keep only getting a dead end link when I try and look back through Google Scholar. That's annoying since sample sizes are important for this sort of thing.

IDK what to tell you. Do you not trust the site or something?

 

[Warden_of_the_Storm]

IDK what to tell you. Do you not trust the site or something?

Just on my end because using Google Scholar is giving me the name of the source but not the link TO the source for that number, and I very much want to know what that sample size is just to satiate my curiosity on what the actual number of people experiencing NDEs from that sample size is. But that's not a thing you have to worry about, I'll sort it out on my end. Somehow...

 

[All Becomes New]

Just on my end because using Google Scholar is giving me the name of the source but not the link TO the source for that number, and I very much want to know what that sample size is just to satiate my curiosity on what the actual number of people experiencing NDEs from that sample size is. But that's not a thing you have to worry about, I'll sort it out on my end. Somehow...

Good luck.

 

[Saber Truth Tiger]

Good luck.

SABER TRUTH TIGER
Here is a cut and paste of the article discussing a sample size.

It is informative to consider how near-death experiencers themselves view the reality of their experiences. An NDERF survey of 1122 NDErs asked “How do you currently view the reality of your experience?”, and received the following responses:

Experience was definitely real​	962​	95.6 %​
Experience was probably real​	40​	4.0 %​
Experience was probably not real​	3​	0.3 %​
Experience was definitely not real​	1​	0.1 %​

Open in a separate window
The great majority of more than 1,000 near-death experiencers believed that their experiences were definitely real. The 1,122 NDErs surveyed included many physicians, scientists, attorneys, and nurses. These findings suggest that, for the majority of us who have not personally experienced an NDE, we should be very cautious about labelling NDEs as “unreal.” Given that such a high percentage of NDErs consider their experiences to be “definitely real,” it would be reasonable to accept their assessment of the reality of their personal experience unless there is good evidence that their experiences were not real.

After over 35 years of scholarly investigation of near-death experience, the totality of what is observed in NDEs has not been adequately explained based on physical brain function. It is beyond the scope of this article to review the many proposed “explanations” of near-death experience. Over the years, there have been over 20 different “explanations” of NDE suggested that cover the gamut of physiological, psychological, and cultural causes. If any one or several of these “explanations” were widely accepted as plausible, then there would be no need for so many different “explanations” of NDE. Among those who believe that physical brain function must explain everything that is experienced in all NDEs, there is no consensus whatsoever about how physical brain function produces NDEs.

 

[Bradskii]

No theories, huh?

People react in different ways to extreme events or to anasthesia or a lack of oxygen or cardiac arrest. The mind does weird things. The memory does the same. If there are gaps then we tend to fill them in. We confuse what we experienced at one time with what we experience another. We literally make things up so that the world makes sense to us. We retrospectively justify what happens to us by lying to ourselves. This is all too common. And I'm no expert on the way the mind works that I can explain in detail how it happens.

But we aren't talking about plain, everyday, run of the mill NDEs. You've even discounted those yourself. You want to show that there's some spiritual aspect to it. So we can float about and check footware on window ledges. So give me your best example, with verifiable evidence, of one of them.

 

[All Becomes New]

You've even discounted those yourself.

I have? Where?

So we can float about and check footware on window ledges.

Never denied Maria's experience was an NDE.

 

[Bradskii]

I have? Where?

Just looking back a few posts we have youmencouraging people to investigate the NDEs that you consider supernatural.

'You can literally investigate ANY of the NDEs that don't have a naturalistic explanation to them.

Never denied Maria's experience was an NDE.

You put it forward as a supernanatural experience.

 

[ViaCrucis]

So the Apostles had blind faith like you? They just had faith and this was separated from reason/evidence?

This isn't the place to have a theological and biblical debate. But I'd be more than happy to both provide Scripture and theological perspective to dive further into this subject.

But in brief: If the truth of the Gospel could be ascertained by reason and evidence, then talk of faith would be meaningless.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[All Becomes New]

Just looking back a few posts we have youmencouraging people to investigate the NDEs that you consider supernatural.

'You can literally investigate ANY of the NDEs that don't have a naturalistic explanation to them.

Right. So what I am hearing you say is that it is okay to make wild accusations against other people to try and catch them in a trap. Is that right? That seems to be what you are telling me by your actions (rather than your words). Otherwise, it does not seem to be that you can produce a post from me saying that I deny the less evidenced NDE cases as supernatural. I mean, we can play this game where you constantly accuse me of things and I have to defend myself, but that's not fun for me and it is wrong of you. So can you not?

You put it forward as a supernanaturalexperience.

Yes. I don't have as much confidence in it anymore, but I think it was likely a supernatural happening still.

 

[All Becomes New]

This isn't the place to have a theological and biblical debate. But I'd be more than happy to both provide Scripture and theological perspective to dive further into this subject.

But in brief: If the truth of the Gospel could be ascertained by reason and evidence, then talk of faith would be meaningless.

-CryptoLutheran

So you have a faulty definition of the word faith. Understood.

 

[ViaCrucis]

So you have a faulty definition of the word faith. Understood.

Sure. Let's go with that.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Bradskii]

Yes. I don't have as much confidence in it anymore, but I think it was likely a supernatural happening still.

I guess that shows the benefit of a 10 second Google search. So let's do another one. I keep asking...

 

[All Becomes New]

I guess that shows the benefit of a 10 second Google search. So let's do another one. I keep asking...

Then he elucidates: ‘Yes, you were there when I was brought into hospital and you took my dentures out of my mouth and put them onto that car, it had all these bottles on it and there was this sliding drawer underneath and there you put my teeth.’ I was especially amazed because I remembered this happening while the man was in deep coma and in the process of CPR. When I asked further, it appeared the man had seen himself lying in bed, that he had perceived from above how nurses and doctors had been busy with CPR. He was also able to describe correctly and in detail the small room in which he had been resuscitated as well as the appearance of those present like myself. At the time that he observed the situation he had been very much afraid that we would stop CPR and that he would die.

Don't know why I am even entertaining you with this as you clearly have no interest in viewing this without bias.

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140673601071008/fulltext

 

[Bradskii]

Don't know why I am even entertaining you with this as you clearly have no interest in viewing this without bias.

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140673601071008/fulltext

Remember the flywheel. I'll check this out later.

 

[Bradskii]

Don't know why I am even entertaining you with this as you clearly have no interest in viewing this without bias.

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140673601071008/fulltext

Well, that didn't take long.

A guy had been in hospital for a week, recovering. Presumably he'd been fed during that time. And the guy didn't have his dentures, so obviously would have asked for them. I'm pretty certain that he would have been told that they were taken out when he was being seen to originally. And quite possibly, whoever he asked might have said 'the nurse over there was in attendence. She would have left them on the cart in the emergency room. I'll check with her.' And sometime later, still without his dentures, he sees the nurse and says 'Hey, you know where my dentures are. You took them out when you were looking after me'.

Not much supernatural there.

And he described the room? Well yeah, I'll bet I can describe it too. And I've never been in one. But I've watched plenty of medical dramas on TV. It had the guy on a bed. It was a small room (obviously). There was medical equipment along the wall (obviously) and there were people in there helping him (obviously). They wore white (obviously). And there was a cart and you put the dentures on them (someone had told him that). It had bottles on there and had a tray (most trays in a hospital will match that description).

Not much supernatural there.

Now the guy probably had a vivid experience at some point during the emergency. And then when he'd recovered he associated that experience with what he knew and his mind made up a story that strung all the information into a meaningful sequence. It's something we all do. It's incredibly common.

Now I specifically asked you for an event that was the best example that you had of an NDE being a supernatural experience. And apart from some minor descriptions of a room in a hospital that contained medical personnel, we are to determine this as being a supernatural event because he knew which nurse had taken out his dentures?

So with your new found determination to address evidence with an open mind, I am certain beyond any reasonable doubt that you will consider this a good example of reasonable doubt. At the very least. Whereas most of the rest of us will simply discount it entirely. It's your call.

Sand shoes and dentures...

 

[partinobodycular]

The question is why so many people have the same core experiences. I just do not understand why that would be the case. Wouldn't it be like dreaming or something if it were hallucinations? Like, why do so many people have the same core experience with NDEs? Does anyone have any theories?

The most pervasive core experience as far as NDE's are concerned... is that most people don't have them. Now that may sound immaterial to understanding actual NDE's, but it's a legitimate question... why do 17% of dying people have NDE's and 83% of them don't?

This question is important because understanding why some people have NDE's while others don't may also help explain why their NDE's tend to be similar. It may simply be that their experiences are similar because the people themselves are somehow similar. Perhaps they're simply part of the 20% of people who are lucid dreamers, and hence they're brains are more in tune with the fact that they're dying. Maybe some of us go gently into that good night, and some of us dream our way there.

What, I wonder, would a dying brain dream? What, I wonder, will I dream?