General anesthesia and consciousness

[Warden_of_the_Storm]

Talk yourself into a circle. IDC. But it is a known logical fallacy, just so you are aware.

Show me how the supernatural can be studied then. What is studied with regards to the supernatural? What tests are done?

 

[All Becomes New]

Show me how the supernatural can be studied then. What is studied with regards to the supernatural? What tests are done?

The supernatural cannot be repeated. That does not mean it cannot be studied. We make observations. Whether those observations are repeated or not does not matter because we all observe things all the time that only happen once.

 

[Aaron112]

Wrong Bible.

 

[Warden_of_the_Storm]

The supernatural cannot be repeated. That does not mean it cannot be studied. We make observations. Whether those observations are repeated or not does not matter because we all observe things all the time that only happen once.

Repeatable observations are one of the corner stones of scientific inquiry and study. If it cannot be repeated, then there is no way that it can validated as actual evidence in science.
And if the evidence is a guy going "I saw a vision of such and such when I was nearly dead" then that is not an observation. That is a claim.

 

[Bradskii]

We do know what happened. We know a man was basically dead for some time and then when he came back to life...

Well that's obviously wrong for a start. You don't come back to life if you're not dead in the first place.

he seemed to know exactly who took his dentures.

Yes, but we don't know as a fact how that happened. As you said quite clearly...he seemed to know.

The only thing that differs is how we interpret the event.

That's right.

You have to add facts to the equation.

The only facts we have (if we accept what the nurse said was correct) is that man said he had an out of body experience. What we have to do is determine if he was mistaken or not. We have to see if there are other explanations. I gave you a very simple one.

Now we have two explanations (there'd be others but lets just leave it at two). Neither of them are facts. And we have to weigh them as to which is more likely. Not which is true, because we're unable to do that. But which is more likely.

Yet again, it's your call as to which is more likely.

 

[All Becomes New]

Repeatable observations are one of the corner stones of scientific inquiry and study. If it cannot be repeated, then there is no way that it can validated as actual evidence in science.
And if the evidence is a guy going "I saw a vision of such and such when I was nearly dead" then that is not an observation. That is a claim.

You never make claims about anything? So when you tell someone you were born on your birthday, that is not a claim? It is a claim. People make claims all the time that you believe yourself. If I tell you I live in an apartment, which I do, do you have any reason to not believe me? Of course, if you believe me, then you believe my claim. If you don't believe me, then don't believe the scientific claims people make either.

 

[All Becomes New]

Well that's obviously wrong for a start. You don't come back to life if you're not dead in the first place.

Yes, but we don't know as a fact how that happened. As you said quite clearly...he seemed to know.

That's right.

The only facts we have (if we accept what the nurse said was correct) is that man said he had an out of body experience. What we have to do is determine if he was mistaken or not. We have to see if there are other explanations. I gave you a very simple one.

Now we have two explanations (there'd be others but lets just leave it at two). Neither of them are facts. And we have to weigh them as to which is more likely. Not which is true, because we're unable to do that. But which is more likely.

Yet again, it's your call as to which is more likely.

He was blue and ice cold to the touch as he had been lying on the ground outside in the middle of the winter in a Scandinavian country. Not many people get more dead than that. How long was he lying there? No one knows.

We know what the man said. You don't believe him. Simple as that.

Your explanation does not explain why it is common that people who have an NDE have a similar experience as this man. About 25% of people who have an NDE experience an OBE. Is every one of those people mistaken? That seems to be what you are saying.

Of course, we have to go with what is more likely. And most often, we think what is more likely is true. Anyone who has any beliefs at all believes that those beliefs are true.

 

[Warden_of_the_Storm]

You never make claims about anything? So when you tell someone you were born on your birthday, that is not a claim? It is a claim. People make claims all the time that you believe yourself. If I tell you I live in an apartment, which I do, do you have any reason to not believe me? Of course, if you believe me, then you believe my claim. If you don't believe me, then don't believe the scientific claims people make either.

Since a birthday can be checked through various lines of inquiry (social media, personal acquaintances, family members), then it is a claim that be checked to shown as fact. So it becomes a fact.
If you tell me you lived in an apartment, on the face value of how Americans live, I would take that claim at face value since there is a lot of evidence to support such a claim. There is indirect evidence to say that your claim could very well be a fact.

If someone says that they had a Near Death Experience that only they experienced and cannot be substantiated by anyone apart from them going "Oh, Ol' Joe down the road had an near death experience when he got hit by a car that time a few years back. That was weird", that is just a claim, since there is no way to independently verify that the claim of Ol' Joe having an NDE is a fact.

Do you see why the first two claims can be accepted as facts but the third one cannot? It's very simple: you need evidence for a claim to become a fact. And you have no evidence for a supernatural cause being behind NDEs. If you don't have evidence, it's just a claim.

 

[Bradskii]

Of course, we have to go with what is more likely.

Exactly. So your position is that the supernatural answer is more likely. Others will disagree but you are entitled to your own opinion.

 

[Bradskii]

Not many people get more dead than that.

Don't be silly.

 

[Warden_of_the_Storm]

Exactly. So your position is that the supernatural answer is more likely. Others will disagree but you are entitled to your own opinion.

This is the nub I think: everyone has opinions on everything and anything, and really that is 100% acceptable. But as soon as you try and go into anything science related with said opinions, it opens up a whole different can of worms that many people with said opinions do not actually like being opened.

 

[All Becomes New]

Since a birthday can be checked through various lines of inquiry (social media, personal acquaintances, family members), then it is a claim that be checked to shown as fact. So it becomes a fact.
If you tell me you lived in an apartment, on the face value of how Americans live, I would take that claim at face value since there is a lot of evidence to support such a claim. There is indirect evidence to say that your claim could very well be a fact.

If someone says that they had a Near Death Experience that only they experienced and cannot be substantiated by anyone apart from them going "Oh, Ol' Joe down the road had an near death experience when he got hit by a car that time a few years back. That was weird", that is just a claim, since there is no way to independently verify that the claim of Ol' Joe having an NDE is a fact.

Do you see why the first two claims can be accepted as facts but the third one cannot? It's very simple: you need evidence for a claim to become a fact. And you have no evidence for a supernatural cause being behind NDEs. If you don't have evidence, it's just a claim.

No, that is absurd. There are like 30 million reported NDE in the US and Europe alone. So if you believe I live in an apartment, then you should believe when people tell you they had an NDE.

 

[partinobodycular]

Yet that is not what even skeptical scholars say about the Bible. Why do you think that is?

Want to talk about the resurrection now? I'm pretty sure I can provide some FACTS that will be extremely difficult to come to a naturalistic explanation to explain those facts.

Try to stay on topic. We were discussing data... specifically data on NDE's.

Here's some:

In this study half of the people who reported a 'Near Death Experience' weren't near death at all... their cases might be better classified as a 'Fear of Death Experience'. This suggests that actually being close to dying isn't a necessary component of NDE's, hence NDE's may have nothing at all to do with what happens when someone dies.

The medical records of 58 patients, most of whom believed they were near death during an illness or after an injury and all of whom later remembered unusual experiences occurring at the time, were examined. 28 patients were judged to have been so close to death that they would have died without medical intervention; the other 30 patients were not in danger of dying although most of them thought they were.

Features of "near-death experience" in relation to whether or not patients were near death

 

[All Becomes New]

Exactly. So your position is that the supernatural answer is more likely. Others will disagree but you are entitled to your own opinion.

Right, and I have evidence for my view. You only have defeaters. You have no positive case for your interpretation.

 

[All Becomes New]

Try to stay on topic. We were discussing data... specifically data on NDE's.

Here's some:

In this study half of the people who reported a 'Near Death Experience' weren't near death at all... their cases might be better classified as a 'Fear of Death Experience'. This suggests that actually being close to dying isn't a necessary component of NDE's, hence NDE's may have nothing at all to do with what happens when someone dies.



Features of "near-death experience" in relation to whether or not patients were near death

Fear is something some of these (many) studies account for. In fact, if you look back much earlier in the thread I linked a study that said explicitly that fear was not a factor.

 

[All Becomes New]

Wrong Bible.

 

[Warden_of_the_Storm]

No, that is absurd. There are like 30 million reported NDE in the US and Europe alone. So if you believe I live in an apartment, then you should believe when people tell you they had an NDE.

It's not a question if people experience NDEs though. Yes, people say they experienced NDEs. That isn't the question. The question is if you are able to give evidence that NDEs are caused by the supernatural or not.

 

[All Becomes New]

It's not a question if people experience NDEs though. Yes, people say they experienced NDEs. That isn't the question. The question is if you are able to give evidence that NDEs are caused by the supernatural or not.

Didn't you say the supernatural is impossible? Like what would convince you that the supernatural is a reality?

 

[Warden_of_the_Storm]

Didn't you say the supernatural is impossible? Like what would convince you that the supernatural is a reality?

Show me where I said the supernatural is impossible. But do not try and turn this around on me. You claim that NDEs are supernatural and that it can be shown. Show it then.

 

[Bradskii]

Right, and I have evidence for my view. You only have defeaters. You have no positive case for your interpretation.

You don't have any facts. It's not a fact that the guy had an out of body experience. It's a fact that he said he did. Those are two entirely different things. So yet again, we need look for examples of what could have happened to explain what happened. I gave an example. We then need to decide which is more likely. And as you said - and I'll quote it: 'Of course, we have to go with what is more likely.'

So 'what is more likely' (again, your words) in your opinion (and as we're not dealing with facts it is an opinion) is that he had an out of body experience.