Gone To Rest

[CoreyD]

Their bodies know not anything. But the spirits of the righteous are with Jesus.

That would be the resurrection of the dead at the end of time when the spirits of the righteous are reunited with their transformed glorious, sinless, imperishable bodies.

Human spirits are not just in God's memory, they are immortal and are in existence.
The spirits of those in Christ are with Christ at the death of their bodies.

Angels are green men with green hair.

Do you realize that every time you make a statement without scripture references, you are actually doing what I just did?
I don't think we need someone to remind us we are on the Exposition & Bible Study Forum, which deals with Study and exposition of specific Bible verses.

 

[Clare73]

Angels are green men with green hair.

Do you realize that every time you make a statement without scripture references, you are actually doing what I just did?
I don't think we need someone to remind us we are on the Exposition & Bible Study Forum, which deals with Study and exposition of specific Bible verses.

Sorry. . .I have edited post #20 to provide Scriptures.

 

[CoreyD]

Sorry. . .I have edited post #20 to provide Scriptures.

Thanks.
I'll consider them here, along with your statements.

You said :

Their bodies know not anything
See Php 1:21-24, 2 Co 5:8, Lk 23:43.

Philippians 1
21 For to me, to live is Christ, and to die is gain. 22 But if I live on in the flesh, this will mean fruit from my labor; yet what I shall choose I cannot tell. 23 For I am hard-pressed between the two, having a desire to depart and be with Christ, which is far better. 24 Nevertheless to remain in the flesh is more needful for you.

2 Corinthians 5:8 We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord.

Luke 23:43 And Jesus said to him, “Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise.”

? Can you please point out exactly where you saw 'Their bodies know not anything'? I'm not seeing it.
I do see, "the dead know nothing". Ecclesiastes 9:5

Please, can you tell me, as clear and simple, as possible, what 1 Corinthians 15:35-38 is saying to you.
I'd appreciate that, thanks.


In response to :

Jesus helps us understand how the dead are resting in their grave.
Jesus said,
"For as the Father raises the dead and gives life to them, even so the Son gives life to whom He will." John 5:21
"Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth." John 5:28, 29

That would be the resurrection of the dead at the end of time when the spirits of the righteous are reunited with their transformed glorious, sinless, imperishable bodies.
See 1 Th 4:15-17.

1 Thessalonians 4:
15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

The verse (15) reads, 'For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep'
Do you realize that the verse does not say "at the end of time", but rather "the coming of the Lord".
Are you saying the 'end of time' is 'the coming of the Lord'?
Can you elaborate please?

Also, if that occurs before the so-called rapture, when does this occur? Acts 24:15;. Revelation 20:13

I noticed you say, "the resurrection of the dead". So you believe it is the dead that are resurrected. That, I agree with, since that is what the Bible teaches. Matthew 10:8; Matthew 11:5; Luke 20:37, 38; Hebrews 11:35
So we agree that it is the dead that are raised from among the dead, and not the living?

So, the immortal soul teaching is incompatible with this, since being raised to life is necessary. Would you agree?
If you have a different view on this, please say it.
Can you explain, what is raised up?


You said :

The Greek word mnémeion means sepulchre (Mt 23:29), grave (Mt 27:52), tomb (Mt 27:60) and memorial, anything done to preserve the memory of persons.​

The use of mnémeion in Jn 5:28 does not mean "memorial," it means "grave."​

Do you have a Greek reference?
Translations are how people render the Greek word. How they render the Greek is not the meaning of the word, but how they choose to render it.


You say :

Human spirits are not just in God's memory, they are immortal and are in existence.​

The spirits of those in Christ are with Christ at the death of their bodies.​

You used the same scriptures as before, which do not say "Human spirits are immortal and are in existence."
Nor do the verses say, "Human spirits of those in Christ are with Christ at the death of their bodies".

Philippians 1
21 For to me, to live is Christ, and to die is gain. 22 But if I live on in the flesh, this will mean fruit from my labor; yet what I shall choose I cannot tell. 23 For I am hard-pressed between the two, having a desire to depart and be with Christ, which is far better. 24 Nevertheless to remain in the flesh is more needful for you.

That does not have anything to do with human spirits.
Nor does this.

Luke 23:43 And Jesus said to him, “Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise.”

What about :

2 Corinthians 5:8 We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord. ?

Context :
2 Corinthians 5
1 For we know that if our earthly house, this tent, is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. 2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed with our habitation which is from heaven, 3 if indeed, having been clothed, we shall not be found naked. 4 For we who are in this tent groan, being burdened, not because we want to be unclothed, but further clothed, that mortality may be swallowed up by life. 5 Now He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who also has given us the Spirit as a guarantee.
6 So we are always confident, knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord. 7 For we walk by faith, not by sight. 8 We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord.

Paul is talking about what they look forward to - being absent from their present body - that is, their earthly house, this tent, which they eagerly look forward to it being destroyed - being unclothed from it, so that they might be clothed with the house not made with hands - the one belonging to heaven.
Did you see that?

If not, please explain the verses.
However, the verse you referenced, is not speaking about human spirits.
Actually, according to 1 Corinthians 15:35-38, Paul says :
35 But someone will say, “How are the dead raised up? And with what body do they come?” 36 Foolish one, what you sow is not made alive unless it dies. 37 And what you sow, you do not sow that body that shall be, but mere grain - perhaps wheat or some other grain. 38 But God gives it a body as He pleases, and to each seed its own body.

So that overturns the idea that human spirits or souls are immortal and live on after death.
If you disagree, please explain the verses.


You said :

Sleep is a metaphor for death.

Yes. Can you explain why Jesus used sleep to describe death?

 

[Clare73]

Thanks.
I'll consider them here, along with your statements.
You said :

Philippians 1
21 For to me, to live is Christ, and to die is gain. 22 But if I live on in the flesh, this will mean fruit from my labor; yet what I shall choose I cannot tell. 23 For I am hard-pressed between the two, having a desire to depart and be with Christ, which is far better. 24 Nevertheless to remain in the flesh is more needful for you.

2 Corinthians 5:8 We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord.
Luke 23:43 And Jesus said to him, “Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise.”
? Can you please point out exactly where you saw 'Their bodies know not anything'? I'm not seeing it.
I do see, "the dead know nothing". Ecclesiastes 9:5

Well done, Corey.

"Their bodies know not anything" is irrelevant when the immortal spirit of a person does not die at physical death, but is with Jesus, and is not in ignorance.

Please, can you tell me, as clear and simple, as possible, what 1 Corinthians 15:35-38 is saying to you.
I'd appreciate that, thanks.

How are the dead raised (how can the dead even be raised)? (v.35)
You fool! The same power that raises the dead seed to new life raises the dead body to new life--the power of God. (v.36)
With what kind of body will they come? (v.35)
Paul compares it to plant life in vv. 37-38.
When you sow, you do not plant the finished plant that will be, but a seed. (v.37)
And as the seed in the ground must die (cease to exist as a seed) in order to become a new plant, so
the natural earth body must die ("be planted") in order to become a new resurrection body ("new plant," v. 38)

Plant organisms, while organized similarly in their own order, are different;
the seed sown is related to the new plant that sprouts,
but the new sprout has a different and genuinely new body that God has given it.
Likewise with our resurrection body.
It is sown perishable, it is raised (comes out of the ground) imperishable.
It is sown in dishonor (sin), it is raised in glory (sinless).
It is sown in (sinful human) weakness, it is raised in sinless immortal power.
It is sown a natural (sinful, perishable, dishonorable) physical body, it is raised a spiritual (sinless, imperishable, honorable) physical body (1 Co 15:42-44).

In response to :1 Thessalonians 4:
15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

The verse (15) reads, 'For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep'
Do you realize that the verse does not say "at the end of time", but rather "the coming of the Lord".
Are you saying the 'end of time' is 'the coming of the Lord'?
Can you elaborate please?
Also, if that occurs before the so-called rapture, when does this occur? Acts 24:15;. Revelation 20:13

Well, let me point out that, in light of the fact that God in his defense of Moses told Miriam that he gave prophecy in riddles, not clearly. (Nu 12:8), I take my doctrine from NT apostolic teaching, rather than from personal interpretation of prophetic riddles, not spoken clearly (Rev 20:13).
And NT apostolic teaching (authoritative to the church) locates the coming of the Lord and the end of time together:

Jesus locates the resurrection in the last day (John 6:39).
Paul locates the resurrection with the rapture (1 Thessalonians 4:16).
Jesus locates the rapture with the second coming (Matthew 24:39-41).
Jesus locates the second coming with the judgment of the sheep and goats at the end of time (Matthew 25:31-33).

So in terms of the time of their occurrence, the coming of the Lord is in the last day at the judgment of all mankind at the end of time:

the last day (end of time) = resurrection = rapture = second coming = final judgment of sheep and goats (all mankind)

(And also let me point out that the resurrection being in the last day with the judgment of the sheep and goats--all mankind,
thereby makes only one resurrection. . .of all mankind).

I noticed you say, "the resurrection of the dead". So you believe it is the dead that are resurrected. That, I agree with, since that is what the Bible teaches. Matthew 10:8; Matthew 11:5; Luke 20:37, 38; Hebrews 11:35
So we agree that it is the dead that are raised from among the dead, and not the living?
If you have a different view on this, please say it.

At the second coming, the physically dead bodies of mankind will be resurrected to life, and the saints still living at that time, along with the saints risen from their graves, will be caught up (raptured) together in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air (1 Th 4:17), and to descend with him to earth (parousia, as in Jesus' entry into Jerusalem where they went out to meet him and accomanpanied him into the city) for the final judgment.

(Con't below)

 

[Clare73]

Con't from above:

What about :

Context: 2 Corinthians 5
1 For we know that if our earthly house, this tent, is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. 2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed with our habitation which is from heaven, 3 if indeed, having been clothed, we shall not be found naked.

Paul is continuing from chp 4, regarding reasons for their courage and patience under affliction; i.e., eternal happiness after death.
1. If we die (our spirit's tent, earthly body is destroyed), our spirits are with God (without their bodies).
2. However, our spirits, unclothed by human death, groan to be clothed.
3. Because when we are clothed we will not be found naked.

4 For we who are in this tent groan, being burdened, not because we want to be unclothed, but further clothed, that mortality may be swallowed up by life.

"We do not wish to put off (be unclothed)" (v.4) = spirit after death unclothed of its natural (mortal, sinful, weak) body, tent, dwelling place.
The dismantling of the spirit's earthly tent--the death and separation from its body--is unnatural to man in the highest degree.
There is an earnest desire that if it were the will of God, we might not die, but just be changed, because in itself, it is not desirable that our spirit be unclothed and separated from its body.
While death, considered merely in terms of separation of spirit and body, is not to be desired but dreaded; nevertheless, when considered as a passage to glory, the believer is willing rather to die than live, to be absent from the body that he may be present with the Lord, to leave this body that he may go to Christ, and to put off these rags of mortality that he may put on the robes of glory.
So, rather than dying and his spirit being with Christ unclothed, he would rather Christ just come, that he not die but be changed. . .
in the twinkling of an eye (1 Co 15:51-52), swallowing up his mortal body with immortal life.

5 Now He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who also has given us the Spirit as a guarantee.
6 So we are always confident, knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord. 7 For we walk by faith, not by sight. 8 We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord.

Paul goes from reasons for their courage and patience under affliction to reasons for the comfort of believers in this life :
they are now willing to be at home in the body and absent from the Lord, to walk not by sight but by faith, which faith gives them good reasons for their hope after death.

Paul is talking about what they look forward to - being absent from their present body - that is, their earthly house, this tent, which they eagerly look forward to it being destroyed - being unclothed from it, so that they might be clothed with the house not made with hands - the one belonging to heaven.
Did you see that?

We look forward to being in our heavenly dwelling at the destruction of our tents (by death) to be with God, (vv.1-2)
but, nevertheless, our spirits do not wish to be unclothed (without their tents) because it is not natural to them. (v. 3-4)
So he would rather that Christ just come, he not die, but be changed (v.4). . .in the twinkling of an eye.

If not, please explain the verses.
However, the verse you referenced, is not speaking about human spirits.
Actually, according to 1 Corinthians 15:35-38, Paul says :
35 But someone will say, “How are the dead raised up? And with what body do they come?” 36 Foolish one, what you sow is not made alive unless it dies. 37 And what you sow, you do not sow that body that shall be, but mere grain - perhaps wheat or some other grain. 38 But God gives it a body as He pleases, and to each seed its own body.

So that overturns the idea that human spirits or souls are immortal and live on after death.
If you disagree, please explain the verses.

When Paul speaks of death in 2 Co 5, he is speaking of death of the physical body, not death of the immortal spirit or soul.
That the spirit is immortal is the issue of 2 Co 5, in that it is not natural for the immortal spirit to be without its body (unclothed).

So the Biblical facts remain:
1) the human person is tri-part, composed of body (1Co 6:19), soul and spirit (Heb 4:12), and is incomplete without all three parts (2 Co 5:1-5);
2) some of the same functions are associated with both the soul (Ps 35:9, Mt 26:38) and the spirit (Lk 1:47, Jn 13:21, Ps 42:11 w/1 Kgs 21:5). In the NT, soul and spirit can be distinguished, but separation is only by the two-edged sword of the word of God (Heb 4:12);
3) the indivisible soul and spirit are immortal (Eccl 12:7, Lk 23:46, Ac 7:59, 2 Co 5:8).

You said :

Yes. Can you explain why Jesus used sleep to describe death?

It was a common euphemism (phrase) used then, as it also is now.

 

[BobRyan]

Wesley covers that in his sermon. It is online if you want to read it. If you are eaten by an animal or shark, then they can use your stored energy but they an not use the essence of you. That will pass right through them.

Or ... there is nothing special about your carbon atoms in the first place.

in fact the actual carbon atoms in most of your cells get replaced every 7 years on average. God is not tracking down carbon atoms with your initials on them. That is not what "makes you - you".

He can but that is not really us - resurrected, it is a clone of us.

A clone only works if nothing survives.

The Bible does not say the body survives or the carbon atoms of the body survives. It says in Matt 10:28 that the body is killed (returned to dust) and the soul is what survives. Because of that - he can put that soul in any new body He wishes and have it still be "you". In fact something like that happens all during your life since the physical material in your body gets cycled out several times during your lifetime.

 

[BobRyan]

Can you explain why Jesus used sleep to describe death?

Because in death - the soul that survives is dormant "it sleeps". Jesus says the PERSON is the one who sleeps.

Someone who sleeps does not cease to exist.
The Matt 10:28 soul that is not killed - is that which "sleeps" it is the "HIM" that John 11 says Christ is going to awaken. "I go to awaken HIM".

In 1 Cor 15 the body is "an IT", in 2 Cor 5 the body is something that the person 'has'. But as John 11 and 1 Thess 4:13-18 state, it is the person that sleeps "Those WHO have fallen asleep in Jesus" as Paul says.

Rocks don't "sleep".
dirt does not "sleep".

It is the person that sleeps in death according to Christ in John 11 and according to Paul in 1 Cor 15 and in 1 Thess 4:13-18

 

[BobRyan]

You said :

Philippians 1
21 For to me, to live is Christ, and to die is gain. 22 But if I live on in the flesh, this will mean fruit from my labor; yet what I shall choose I cannot tell. 23 For I am hard-pressed between the two, having a desire to depart and be with Christ, which is far better. 24 Nevertheless to remain in the flesh is more needful for you.

"Depart and be with Christ" in Phil 1 - as written by Paul

Depart this life -- is what Paul wants and he wants to "be with Christ" but what is the mechanism that he expects to get us to be 'With Christ"?

"And so in this way - shall we ever be WITH the Lord" 1 Thess 4:17 - as written by Paul. There in vs 13-18 he details what that mechanism is
It is 1 Thess 4:13-18 where Paul address "which way", what the mechanism is, that results in our "being WITH the Lord". And it is not dying because their loved ones have already died - rather Paul points them to the future rapture/appearing/general resurrection of the saints.

So also in John 14:1-3 " so that WHERE I am there you may be Also" -- Christ explains it as being the very same mechanism as in 1 Thess 4, "I will COME AGAIN and receive you to Myself"

It is the same in Matt 24:29-31 that same mechanism is described.
So also in 2 Thess 2:1-4 that same mechanism is described for "our gathering together unto Him"

It is all the same thing - the rapture.

2 Corinthians 5:8 We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord.

That text does not say "to be absent from the body IS TO BE present with the Lord" it is says that TWO things are desired "to be absent" from this decaying torn-down body - AND to be present with the Lord. But the mechanism for getting to that second point is described in 1 Cor 15 at the end of the chapter and it involves the resurrection that takes place at the rapture - according to 1 Cor 15 just as we see in 1 Thess 4:13-18... just as we see in Matt 28:19-31.

Luke 23:43 And Jesus said to him, “Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise.”

And of course Luke had no punctuation in his Greek text. So it is --
"Lord remember me WHEN you come into your kingdom". And Jesus said to him - truly I say to you today you WILL be with me in Paradise".

? Can you please point out exactly where you saw 'Their bodies know not anything'? I'm not seeing it.
I do see, "the dead know nothing". Ecclesiastes 9:5

Good point. IT does not say "the living body knows nothing". Nor do we have two knowing brains one being the body-brain and another being some other brain.

Please, can you tell me, as clear and simple, as possible, what 1 Corinthians 15:35-38 is saying

It looks like our entire hope according to 1 Cor 15 is in that resurrection that happens at the rapture.

Peter says this same thing in 1 Peter 1:13 "fix your hope completely on the grace to be brought to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ"

1 Thes 4:13-18
13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brothers and sisters, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as indeed the rest of mankind do, who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose from the dead, so also God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep through Jesus. 15 For we say this to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive, who remain, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore, comfort one another with these words.

"And SO we will ever be WITH the Lord" --
"and in this way - we will ever by WITH the Lord"
"and as a result of this resurrection and rapture event -- we will ever be with the Lord"

The verse (15) reads, 'For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep'
Do you realize that the verse does not say "at the end of time", but rather "the coming of the Lord".

exactly

This is describing the rapture and it says that the reason the dead in Christ are not missing out entirely - is because they are resurrected and then "rise first" ahead of the living who are alive and remain... and that all of it happens at the future rapture event. The appearing of Christ.

He gets those who have fallen asleep to be WITH the Lord - via the rapture and not via their funeral.

Are you saying the 'end of time' is 'the coming of the Lord'?

some call it that. But this rapture event is when the dead in Christ are resurrected and those who remain until that appearing of Christ are caught up in the air WITH those who have just been resurrected - and are then WITH the Lord because they "meet the Lord in the air".

So, the immortal soul teaching is incompatible with this, since being raised to life is necessary.

IN John 11 "Our friend Lazarus sleeps" -- his soul sleeps his body is dead.
IN John 11 "Lazarus is dead" --- the state of having a dead body and a soul that is dormant - is called "death" so then "Lazarus is dead" applies.

 

[Clare73]

"Depart and be with Christ" in Phil 1 - as written by Paul
Depart this life -- is what Paul wants and he wants to "bit with Christ" but what is the mechanism that he expects to get us to be 'With Christ"?
"And in this way - shall we ever be WITH the Lord" 1 Thess 4:17 - as written by Paul. There in vs 13-18 he details what that mechanism is
It is 1 Thess 4:13-18 where Paul address "which way", what the mechanism is, that results in our "being WITH the Lord"
So also in John 14:1-3 " so that WHERE I am there you may be Also" -- Christ explains it as being the very same mechanism as in 1 Thess 4
It is the same in Matt 24:29-31 that same mechanism is described.
So also in 2 Thess 2:1-4 that same mechanism is described for "our gathering together unto Him"

It is all the same thing - the rapture.

Actually, there are two "mechanisms" for being with the Lord.

The one seen on the cross where the thief will be with Jesus on the day he dies (Lk 23:43), and to which Paul is referring in 2 Co 5,
as well as the one at the resurrection, where the saints will be caught up together (rapture) in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air (1 Th 4:17).

That text does not say "to be absent from the body IS TO BE present with the Lord"

Correct. . .however, "I desire to depart and be with Christ" links the two.
It is absurd to say that Paul preferred to die early rather than complete the work Christ personally gave him to do, if death did not mean being with Christ at his death. That puts Paul not in accord with Jesus.
Surely intellectual honesty regarding the obvious, along with absence of bias regarding one's personal theology, would make that apparent.

 

[BobRyan]

Actually, there are two "mechanisms" for being with the Lord.

Not in Matt 24:29-31
Not in 1 Thess 4:13-18
Not in 1 Cor 15
Not in 2 Thess 2:1-4

The one seen on the cross where the thief will be with Jesus on the day he dies (Lk 23:43)

the text does not say that.

1. Luke had no punctuation in his Greek text.

2. So in Luke 16 it is --
"Lord remember me WHEN you come into your kingdom". And Jesus said to him - "truly I say to you today you WILL be with me in Paradise".

Jesus Himself did not go to paradise until after the resurrection on Sunday - according to John 20
John 20:16 Jesus *said to her, “Mary!” She turned and *said to Him in Hebrew, “Rabboni!” (which means, Teacher). 17 Jesus *said to her, “Stop clinging to Me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to My brothers and say to them, ‘I am ascending to My Father

Rev 2 tells us that the Tree of Life is IN Paradise - "the one who overcomes, I will grant to eat from the tree of life, which is in the Paradise of God"

Rev 22 tells us that the Tree of Life and the throne of God are in the same place.
Rev 22:1 And he showed me a river of the water of life, clear as crystal, coming from the throne of God and of the Lamb, 2 in the middle of its street. On either side of the river was the tree of life,

On resurrection Sunday in John 20 Jesus had not yet been there, had not yet been to the throne of God where the tree of life is... had not yet been to Paradise.

2 Cor 5

, and to which Paul is referring in 2 Co 5,

2 Cor 5 has three states described.

1. Alive in this decaying tent - body
2. Unclothed - without either the old body or the new one that is eternal made in the heavens and received at the resurrection according to 1 Cor 15.
3. The immortal eternal body - made in the heavens - received at the resurrection according to 1 Cor 15 which had already been written to the church in Corinth prior to 2 Cor 5..

Both 2 Cor 5 and 1 Cor 15 speak of that immortal eternal body and 1 Cor 15 makes it very clear that you get it at the resurrection when Jesus appears. If you reject that this prior explanation is what Paul is referring to in 2 Cor 5 - then my question for you is - just how man immortal eternal bodies do you think someone gets between death and resurrection??

Correct. . .however, "I desire to depart and be with Christ" links the two.

But it does not say that "when I depart , at that moment I will be in heaven with the Lord".

Rather 1 Thess 4 makes it very clear when "WE will be with the Lord" as Paul says. He includes himself in that "WE" that will be with the lord via the coming resurrection and rapture.

It is absurd to say that Paul preferred to die early rather than complete the work Christ

He did not say he wanted to die early rather than complete the work of Christ. He said he wanted to complete the work he had been given.

But he makes a very good point that since the body is destroyed at death and the spirit is dormant in the John 11 and 1 Thess 4:13-18 state -- it records no passing of time. So from the context/POV of the one who dies - it is instantly at the point of resurrection the moment one's eyes are closed in death - no passing of time is recorded.

Jesus makes the point iron clad in his own debate with the Sadducees where he proves the future resurrection beyond all doubt by noting that the ONLY way God's statement to Moses of the form "I am the God of Abraham" can be true - is if there is a future resurrection , for as Jesus said "God is NOT the God of the dead" (which was a point the Sadducees could not deny). This was an iron clad "proof" that silenced the Sadducees completely according to the text. They could find no way out of it.

No Christian Bible scholar has found a way for Christ's "proof" of the future resurrection given in Matt 22, to be iron clad and inescapable for the Sadducees - by using any other interpretation other than the John 11 and 1 Thess 4 explanation of the dormant state.

 

[CoreyD]

Because in death - the soul that survives is dormant "it sleeps". Jesus says the PERSON is the one who sleeps.

Someone who sleeps does not cease to exist.
The Matt 10:28 soul that is not killed - is that which "sleeps" it is the "HIM" that John 11 says Christ is going to awaken. "I go to awaken HIM".

In 1 Cor 15 the body is "an IT", in 2 Cor 5 the body is something that the person 'has'. But as John 11 and 1 Thess 4:13-18 state, it is the person that sleeps "Those WHO have fallen asleep in Jesus" as Paul says.

Rocks don't "sleep".
dirt does not "sleep".

It is the person that sleeps in death according to Christ in John 11 and according to Paul in 1 Cor 15 and in 1 Thess 4:13-18

I too believe the soul is the person, or life of the person - us. Where is the person sleeping?
Coming to you shortly @Clare73

 

[Clare73]

Not in Matt 24:29-31
Not in 1 Thess 4:13-18
Not in 1 Cor 15
Not in 2 Thess 2:1-4
the text does not say that.
1. Luke had no punctuation in his Greek text.
2. So in Luke 16 it is --
"Lord remember me WHEN you come into your kingdom". And Jesus said to him - "truly I say to you today you WILL be with me in Paradise".

I maintain that intellectual honesty does not view that statement as you present it, that we do not find that kind of phraseology with Jesus.

Jesus Himself did not go to paradise until after the resurrection on Sunday - according to John 20

And you know this how?

How do you know where his spirit was between his death and resurrection?

John 20:16 Jesus *said to her, “Mary!” She turned and *said to Him in Hebrew, “Rabboni!” (which means, Teacher). 17 Jesus *said to her, “Stop clinging to Me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to My brothers and say to them, ‘I am ascending to My Father

Refers to his physical resurrection body of flesh and bone.

Rev 2 tells us that the Tree of Life is IN Paradise - "the one who overcomes, I will grant to eat from the tree of life, which is in the Paradise of God"

Rev 22 tells us that the Tree of Life and the throne of God are in the same place.
Rev 22:1 And he showed me a river of the water of life, clear as crystal, coming from the throne of God and of the Lamb, 2 in the middle of its street. On either side of the river was the tree of life,

On resurrection Sunday in John 20 Jesus had not yet been there, had not yet been to the throne of God where the tree of life is... had not yet been to Paradise.

I don't take my doctrine from prophetic riddles (in Rev) not spoken clearly (Nu 12:8). I take it from apostolic teaching

2 Cor 5 has three states described.
1. Alive in this decaying tent - body
2. Unclothed - without either the old body or the new one that is eternal made in the heavens and received at the resurrection according to 1 Cor 15.
3. The immortal eternal body - made in the heavens - received at the resurrection according to 1 Cor 15.
But it does not say that "when I depart , at that moment I will be in heaven with the Lord".

Previously addressed.

 

[BobRyan]

I too believe the soul is the person, or life of the person - us. Where is the person sleeping?
Coming to you shortly @Clare73

The body goes to dust - the spirit goes to God at death Eccl 12:7 --- but it is in the John 11, and 1 Thess 4:13-18 dormant state which is why you have "the dead know not anything" Eccl 9:5 and "God is not the God of the dead" in Matt 22, it is why seances are forbidden just as eating from the tree of knowledge of good and evil was forbidden in Gen 2-3. The only person they were going to meet there - was a demon.

 

[BobRyan]

I maintain that intellectual honesty does not view that statement as you present

Which is not true if one pays attention to the details I pointed out - rather than skimming past them.

 

[BobRyan]

2 Cor 5 has three states described.

1. Alive in this decaying tent - body
2. Unclothed - without either the old body or the new one that is eternal made in the heavens and received at the resurrection according to 1 Cor 15.
3. The immortal eternal body - made in the heavens - received at the resurrection according to 1 Cor 15 which had already been written to the church in Corinth prior to 2 Cor 5..

Both 2 Cor 5 and 1 Cor 15 speak of that immortal eternal body and 1 Cor 15 makes it very clear that you get it at the resurrection when Jesus appears. If you reject that this prior explanation is what Paul is referring to in 2 Cor 5 - then my question for you is - just how man immortal eternal bodies do you think someone gets between death and resurrection??

Previously addressed.

So you say -
You have free will and can believe anything you wish. I am fine with that.

 

[CoreyD]

The body goes to dust - the spirit goes to God at death Eccl 12:7 --- but it is in the John 11, and 1 Thess 4:13-18 dormant state which is why you have "the dead know not anything" Eccl 9:5 and "God is not the God of the dead" in Matt 22, it is why seances are forbidden just as eating from the tree of knowledge of good and evil was forbidden in Gen 2-3. The only person they were going to meet there - was a demon.

Yes, but the spirit is not the soul right?

 

[BobRyan]

How do you know where his spirit was between his death and resurrection?

The spirit goes to God at death. Which is why both Stephen and Christ pray "Lord receive my spirit" and "into Thy hands I commend my spirit".

BobRyan said:
Rev 2 tells us that the Tree of Life is IN Paradise - "the one who overcomes, I will grant to eat from the tree of life, which is in the Paradise of God" --(Just as 2 Cor 12:1-5 says it is in "the third heaven")

Rev 22 tells us that the Tree of Life and the throne of God are in the same place.
Rev 22:1 And he showed me a river of the water of life, clear as crystal, coming from the throne of God and of the Lamb, 2 in the middle of its street. On either side of the river was the tree of life,

On resurrection Sunday in John 20 Jesus had not yet been there, had not yet been to the throne of God where the tree of life is... had not yet been to Paradise.

I don't take my doctrine from prophetic riddles (in Rev) not spoken clearly (Nu 12:8). I take it from apostolic teaching

Perhaps if you would list all the books of the Bible you reject we can be careful when responding to you so that we do not use certain portions of scripture

 

[BobRyan]

BobRyan said:
The body goes to dust - the spirit goes to God at death Eccl 12:7 --- but it is in the John 11, and 1 Thess 4:13-18 dormant state which is why you have "the dead know not anything" Eccl 9:5 and "God is not the God of the dead" in Matt 22, it is why seances are forbidden just as eating from the tree of knowledge of good and evil was forbidden in Gen 2-3. The only person they were going to meet there - was a demon.

Yes, but the spirit is not the soul right?

IN that context it is because the body is only dust at that point.
2 Cor 5:1-4 calls it the "unclothed" state of the spirit/soul "WE do not want to be unclothed" as Paul says.

Context determines meaning so then in 1 Cor 5:3 Paul says - "3 For I indeed, as absent in body but present in spirit, have already judged (as though I were present) him who has so done this deed."

Paul does not mean he is dead, or that he is having an out of body experience, or that his soul/spirit travels around while his body is in location "a" , his spirit/soul is at location "b". It is an entirely different context for that same term.

In Gen 2 God forms man's body , breathes into him the breath of life and man "becomes" a "living soul" and everyone agrees with this one. But what happens at the first death? -- in that case they "kill the body but not the soul" Matt 10:28 which means you can't just use the "became a living sol" as the definition because that is the special case of bringing a soul into existence in the first place (which is always the case of both a living body and a spirit joined and a living soul as the result)..

 

[CoreyD]

IN that context it is because the body is only dust at that point.
2 Cor 5:1-4 calls it the "unclothed" state of the spirit/soul "WE do not want to be unclothed" as Paul says.

Context determines meaning so then in 1 Cor 5:3 Paul says - "3 For I indeed, as absent in body but present in spirit, have already judged (as though I were present) him who has so done this deed."

Paul does not mean he is dead, or that he is having an out of body experience, or that is soul/spirit travels around while his body is in location "a" , his spirit/soul is at location "b". It is an entirely different context for that same term.

Yes, context matters.
1 Corinthians 5:3 - For my part, even though I am not physically present, I am with you in spirit.
With you in spirit means what?

 

[BobRyan]

Yes, context matters.
1 Corinthians 5:3 - For my part, even though I am not physically present, I am with you in spirit.
With you in spirit means what?

Context determines meaning so then in 1 Cor 5:3 Paul says - "3 For I indeed, as absent in body but present in spirit, have already judged (as though I were present) him who has so done this deed."

Paul does not mean he is dead, or that he is having an out of body experience, or that his soul/spirit travels around while his body is in location "a" , his spirit/soul is at location "b". It is an entirely different context for that same term.

In Gen 2 God forms man's body , breathes into him the breath of life and man "becomes" a "living soul" and everyone agrees with this one. But what happens at the first death? -- in that case they "kill the body but not the soul" Matt 10:28 which means you can't just use the "became a living sol" as the definition because that is the special case of bringing a soul into existence in the first place (which is always the case of both a living body and a spirit joined and a living soul as the result)..

Paul is using the term as we would use it today "I can't be at that event with you tomorrow - but I am with you in spirit". We do not mean that we die and our spirit goes to someone's house etc.