soul = spirit?

[didactics]

I don't agree that soul=spirit. From what I read from the scriptures, soul and spirit are not the same. So soul doesn't=spirit according to the scriptures. Anyone telling me that the spirit in man is a living soul or living person is disagreeing with Genesis 2:7. I'm not going to disagree with what is written down at Genesis 2:7, no matter what anyone thinks of me.
I can see for myself that before God blew the breath(spirit) of life into that flesh and blood human body which God had formed from the dust of the ground there was no living soul or living person yet. This means the breath(spirit) of life not being in the flesh and blood human body yet, a living soul or living person didn't exist yet. It was after God blew the breath of life into the flesh and blood human body that the scripture Genesis 2:7 says the flesh and blood human body became a living soul or living person.

That sounds pretty redundant if you ask me. How is it not the same to say becoming a living soul is having/being given a living soul?

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

That sounds pretty redundant if you ask me. How is it not the same to say becoming a living soul is having/being given a living soul?

You believe what you want that's your right, but it disagrees with what's written down at Genesis 2:7. This scripture doesn't say a human beings body was given a living soul or living person. The human beings body became a living soul or living person when God blew the breath(spirit) of life into it. So a person can never exclude the human body when teaching people about the living soul or living person.

 

[Soyeong]

The words "soul" and "spirit" in the Bible are polysemantic and ambiguous and their meanings overlap. Here I am interested in their distinctions.

Hebrews 4:


What does logos separate?

it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit joints and marrow it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.

The soul is likened to joints while the spirit is likened to marrow. The marrow produces blood, and life or animation is in the blood. The spirit directs the soul which controls motions.

The soul is likened to thoughts and the spirit is likened to attitudes. One's attitudes determine the kinds of thoughts one would like to think on. Again, the spiritual attitudes direct the soul which determines his thought life.

This describes the central role of the human spirit over his soul. The spirit is supernatural because it connects with the indwelling Spirit. In this context, they are distinct.

1 Thessalonians 5:


It is useful to think of the soul and spirit as different parts/faculties of a human being.

There are five different Hebrew words that get arbitrarily translated as "spirit" or "soul" none of which are adequately translated by either "spirit" or "soul".

 

[tonychanyt]

There are five different Hebrew words that get arbitrarily translated as "spirit" or "soul" none of which are adequately translated by either "spirit" or "soul".

Thanks for sharing. Can you list these Hebrew words?

 

[didactics]

You believe what you want that's your right, but it disagrees with what's written down at Genesis 2:7. This scripture doesn't say a human beings body was given a living soul or living person. The human beings body became a living soul or living person when God blew the breath(spirit) of life into it. So a person can never exclude the human body when teaching people about the living soul or living person.

I notice you emphasize that a living soul is a living person. Yes, it is true that you are a living person because you have a soul. Adam was not a living person when he was just a lifeless body formed by the dust of the ground. God gave life to his body by giving him a soul; he became a person. He was given a soul, he became a living person (same difference).

 

[Divide]

This does not mean that your spirit is already perfect.

Your righteousness is perhaps the most important truth you can possibly understand as God’s child. Sure, knowing you are loved unconditionally is crucial, and realizing your spirit is perfect is significant. Believing the truth, “where sin abounds, grace abounds much more,” that too, is paramount in our faith.

Among these certainties, God making His home in our spirits for good–where we go He goes–this epiphany will also change how we view ourselves. But knowing we are righteous?…Forget about it, this changes everything.

When we find out that because of what Jesus did at the Cross, we are just as righteous as He is, our idea of ourselves makes a hard left. The trajectory of our lives and mindsets branch off into a previously unknown area, actually knowing that we are the righteousness of God!

“I am the righteousness of God, in Christ”

“I am the righteousness of God, in Christ."

“I am the righteousness of God in Christ!”

Repeating this to myself was a regular thing for me. It’s hard to believe. It even sounds arrogant, but it’s not–it’s the truth!

“How in the world is this possible?” I’d chuckle, smile, and shake my head. I already knew the answer, but it was still fun to ask myself such a powerful, rhetorical question. It was Jesus! Jesus had caused me to become the righteousness of God! It wasn’t because of a single righteous thing I had ever done, or ever will do! IT WAS A GIFT! OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS IS A GIFT FROM GOD THROUGH OUR FAITH IN JESUS!

What does righteousness even mean? It means right standing, it means justified, it means there’s nothing wrong with you! NOTHING! Your identity is right! Accepting this truth, that your spiritual identity is right with the Creator of the universe? My goodness, talk about a shot in the arm!

Now, to be clear, I’m not talking about faking it ’til you make it. I’m not talking about the notion of “I’ll be righteous with God when I get to heaven.” NO WAY! I’m talking about now! Right now, I am the righteous of God! And so are you, if you believe you are, through Christ.

Take a look at 2 Corinthians 5: 18-21

18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;

19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.

21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.../KJV

If I am in Christ I am not in the flesh. With our new spirit we becane the righteousness of God (in Christ). Do you think the Lord looks at our flesh body? Does God look at our soul? No. He sees our spirit. Your Carnal self is not the righteousness of God! Youe soul is not the righteousness of God! It is your spirit man. Perhaps that is why many Christians have an Identity Crises. They are not comfortable calling themselves perfect.

We are not yet perfect in soul or in the flesh body, but the Lord does not expect us to be perfect. Just to make consistent efforts and to lean upon Him when we fall short. He instructs us to be perfect, but we are unable to be perfect on our own, we must be In Christ. Do you think that the Lord looks at our old man?

I am the righteousness of God, in Christ. God did not give me an imperfect spirit when I was born again. Glory to the Lord.

 

[tonychanyt]

I am the righteousness of God, in Christ. God did not give me an imperfect spirit when I was born again. Glory to the Lord.

So you have achieved perfect righteousness already? You are perfectly sanctified already?

 

[Andrewn]

the scriptures don't say human beings have a living soul or a living person in his/her flesh and blood human body, but that the flesh and blood human body is a living soul or living person.

The Scriptures are inconsistent. They occasionally indicate that a human being is a soul and at other times that human beings have a soul:

Mat 10:28 And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Instead, fear the One who is able to destroy both soul and body in Gehenna.

H5315 - nep̄eš - Strong's Hebrew Lexicon (kjv)

H5315 - נֶפֶשׁ nephesh, neh'-fesh; from ; properly, a breathing creature, i.e. animal of (abstractly) vitality; used very widely in a literal, accommodated or figurative sense (bodily or mental):—any, appetite, beast, body, breath, creature, dead(-ly), desire, (dis-) contented, fish, ghost...

www.blueletterbible.org

I haven't found in the scriptures where it says human beings have living persons in their flesh and blood human bodies

You did quote Gen 2:7, where the spirit/neshama was given to Adam to make him alive. In the NT, "inner person" is frequently used as different from the "outer person."

I was brought up to believe that human beings have souls in their bodies, and I was taught when human being dies, their soul separates from their human bodies and goes to Heaven or Hell, and I was brought up to believe that Hell was a place of fiery torment where the soul was tormented for eternity. The problem with what I was brought up to believe is that the Bible doesn't teach this.

What do you now believe happens after death?

So it takes both the breath(spirit) of life and the flesh and blood human body being combined together to make a living soul or living person.

Sounds like you believe in "soul sleep." Does the spirit/consciousness also become unconscious?

In the scriptures both human beings and animals are living souls, (Genesis 2:7)
and the scriptures also teach that the spirit that's in human beings is also in animals (Genesis 7:22; Ecclesiastes 3:19-22).

Gen 7:22 and Eck 3:19-22 mention that animals have ruah/breath. They do not have neshama/consciousness like human beings.

So when a human being dies he/she no longer is a living person who can recall memories he/she can't remember them, or reflect on them, he/she no longer has any curiosity, or reasoning, or imagination, or .emotions. When a human being dies he/she has no consciousness.

What do you make of near-death experiences?

 

[Soyeong]

Thanks for sharing. Can you list these Hebrew words?

Nefesh, ruach, neshama, chaya, and yechida.

 

[tonychanyt]

Nefesh, ruach, neshama, chaya, and yechida.

It would be great if you quote references for these. That's what I do for others

 

[Andrewn]

Nefesh, ruach, neshama, chaya, and yechida.

These terms come from Kabbalah beliefs that do not seem to correspond to anything in the Bible.

 

[Soyeong]

These terms come from Kabbalah beliefs that do not seem to correspond to anything in the Bible.

They are Hebrew words that are used by the Bible. For example the Hebrew word "nefesh" is used four times between Genesis 1:20-30. The Hebrew word "ruach" is used in Genesis 1:2 to refer to the Spirit of God. "Neshama" is used in Genesis 2:7. "Chaya" is used repeatedly in Genesis 5. "Yechida" is used in Genesis 22:2.

All of these Hebrew words have distinct meanings, none of which are adequately translated as "spirit" or "soul".

 

[Divide]

So you have achieved perfect righteousness already? You are perfectly sanctified already?

I have not acheived anything. I am the righteousness of God, in Christ, in spirit. My soul is not perfect. My body is not perfect.

I accepted the gift. I was born again and given a new spirit within me. His Holy Spirit bears witness with my own spirit and tells him the perfect thing to do in this or that situation. God does not give corrupt gifts. In spirit my spirit communes with God. I am perfect in spirit and not in soul or flesh. So now my job is to overcome the flesh and my soul and live a Holy life as He instructed us to. No man can do this pefectly. I am not sinless. I am pure in spirit and not yet in soul or body. The Lord knows we will fail, but did we make effort? Do we identify with Him? Do we trust Him and have Faith in Him?

If you always seek the spirit first before you nake a decision the Lord will make your paths straight. When you do not look to the Spirit for guidance then you are in the flesh and making carnal decisions outside the Lord. So abide in Him and He will abide in you.

Yes, your spirit is perfect right now. Identify with that! I don't call myself a sinner just because I sin. I still identify with the Lord Jesus. Lord help me to be an overcomer.

 

[tonychanyt]

My soul is not perfect. My body is not perfect.

But your human spirit is perfect?

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

The Scriptures are inconsistent. They occasionally indicate that a human being is a soul and at other times that human beings have a soul:

Mat 10:28 And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Instead, fear the One who is able to destroy both soul and body in Gehenna.

H5315 - nep̄eš - Strong's Hebrew Lexicon (kjv)

H5315 - נֶפֶשׁ nephesh, neh'-fesh; from ; properly, a breathing creature, i.e. animal of (abstractly) vitality; used very widely in a literal, accommodated or figurative sense (bodily or mental):—any, appetite, beast, body, breath, creature, dead(-ly), desire, (dis-) contented, fish, ghost...

www.blueletterbible.org

You did quote Gen 2:7, where the spirit/neshama was given to Adam to make him alive. In the NT, "inner person" is frequently used as different from the "outer person."


What do you now believe happens after death?


Sounds like you believe in "soul sleep." Does the spirit/consciousness also become unconscious?


Gen 7:22 and Eck 3:19-22 mention that animals have ruah/breath. They do not have neshama/consciousness like human beings.


What do you make of near-death experiences?

Commenting on the scripture Matthew 10:28 in his book, Immortality of the Soul or Resurrection of the dead? Professor Oscar Cullmann writes: "psykhe(soul) here does not mean the Greek concept of soul but should rather be translated, ‘life'" .
W.G. Kummel who was a German New Testament Scholar and professor at the University of Marburg he writes that matthew10:28 does not seek to highlight the immortality of the soul, but underlines the fact that God alone can destroy not only earthly life but also heavenly life. Gehenna represents utter destruction from which no resurrection is possible.
The New Bible Commentary (Second Edition, page 786) defines Gehenna as “a description of ‘the second death.

In not one case in the entire Scriptures, are the Hebrew word nephesh(soul) and the Greek word psykhe(soul) used by terms such as immortal, indestructible, imperishable, or deathless, or the like. So when teaching people about the word soul what i see from what I have read and studied from the scriptures, the soul is mortal, perishable, destructible. So when a human being dies he/she ceases to be a living soul or living person.

Matthew 10:28 simply teaches people that while humans can kill you, they don't have the ability or the authority to cause your death to be permanent. If a person is a faithful servant of the true God, and some human kills that person then in the resurrection God will resurrect that person back into existence as a living soul or living person, no one can stop that.

Genesis 2:7 isn't teaching that when God blew the breath(spirit) of life into the flesh and blood human body that he blew a living soul or living person into the flesh and blood human body. The breath(spirit) of life separately on it's own without it being in a flesh and blood human body isn't a living soul or living person. So anyone trying to teach that the living soul or living person is separate from the human body is being inaccurate.

Genesis 7:22 it says in the New American Standard Bible, "all that was on dry land, all in whose nostrils was the breath of the spirit of life, died."

The Christian Standard Bible reads at Genesis 7:22, "Everything with the breath of the spirit of life in it's nostrils, everything on dry land died."

New King James Version at Genesis 7:22 reads, "All in whose nostrils was the breath of the spirit of life, all that was on the dry land, died

The Christian Standard Bible, Aramaic Bible in Plain English, English Revised Version, Literal Standard Version, Younger Literal Translation, Legacy Standard Bible and others, all read, "the breath of the spirit of life."

The reason that the phrase, "the breath of the spirit of life" is used in these Bibles is at Genesis 7:22 reads “the breath [form of neshamah] of the spirit(ruach) of life, is there in that scripture. So the same breath or spirit of life that is in human beings is in animals. This is why at Ecclesiastes 3:19-21 these scriptures teach us that both animals and humans have the same spirit and that humans have no superiority regarding death. Just as an animal ceases to be a living soul or living animal when it dies, a human being ceases to be a living soul or living person when a human being dies.

When someone asks me, Does the spirit/consciousness also become unconscious? That person is letting me know that he/she believes Genesis 2:7 is saying God gave the flesh and blood human body a living soul or living person, because when most people talk about consciousness, they're talking about a person's individual awareness of their inner thoughts, sensations, memories, feelings and the environment that surrounds them. So you're talking about a living person because only living persons have consciousness. Genesis 2:7 doesn't say God gave a living soul or living person to the flesh and blood human body but instead says that the flesh and blood human body BECAME a living soul or living person. That means not that consciousness was given to the flesh and blood human body, but the flesh and blood human body became conscious when God blew the breath of life in the flesh and blood human body.
It seems to me when a person thinks consciousness continues to exist after a human being dies that person is saying there is no death but instead that person seems to believe that death is just a doorway to another plain of existence where that person continues living, because to have consciousness you have to be a living person.

 

[RDKirk]

The words "soul" and "spirit" in the Bible are polysemantic and ambiguous and their meanings overlap. Here I am interested in their distinctions.

Hebrews 4:


What does logos separate?

it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit joints and marrow it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.

The soul is likened to joints while the spirit is likened to marrow. The marrow produces blood, and life or animation is in the blood. The spirit directs the soul which controls motions.

The soul is likened to thoughts and the spirit is likened to attitudes. One's attitudes determine the kinds of thoughts one would like to think on. Again, the spiritual attitudes direct the soul which determines his thought life.

This describes the central role of the human spirit over his soul. The spirit is supernatural because it connects with the indwelling Spirit. In this context, they are distinct.

1 Thessalonians 5:


It is useful to think of the soul and spirit as different parts/faculties of a human being.

The most reasonably consistent understanding I have taken from scripture is that "soul" refers to the body/spirit combination, what God created combined with God's own breath. The body alone is just the "body." The spirit alone is the "spirit." when they are combined they are a "soul."

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

I notice you emphasize that a living soul is a living person. Yes, it is true that you are a living person because you have a soul. Adam was not a living person when he was just a lifeless body formed by the dust of the ground. God gave life to his body by giving him a soul; he became a person. He was given a soul, he became a living person (same difference).

No Genesis 2:7 doesn't say a human being is a living person because the human being was given a living soul. Genesis 2:7 doesn't say in any way that the breath(spirit) of life separately without the breath(spirit) of life being in a human body is a living soul. So it's not being given a living soul that makes a human being a living person. It takes the breath(spirit) of life combined with the human body for a living soul or living person to exist. So when someone says a human being has a soul or living soul they are saying the breath(spirit) of life is a living soul and that contradicts Genesis 2:7

 

[tonychanyt]

The most reasonably consistent understanding I have taken from scripture is that "soul" refers to the body/spirit combination, what God created combined with God's own breath. The body alone is just the "body." The spirit alone is the "spirit." when they are combined they are a "soul."

This is the way I put it: Where the spirit intersects with the body, the soul is formed.

 

[didactics]

It seems to me when a person thinks consciousness continues to exist after a human being dies that person is saying there is no death but instead that person seems to believe that death is just a doorway to another plain of existence where that person continues living, because to have consciousness you have to be a living person.

You're not wrong here. I would point you to the verse that says for the saints they will not have the sting of death (1 Co 15:55-57). For them it is a doorway to eternal life. Though I believe in eternal conscience torment for the damned, I see this as a kind of death. For the damned, it is a deathly existence. There is no hope for the damned, no second chance, and hell is a place for the destruction of the soul. It is not a doorway to any quality of life.

when most people talk about consciousness, they're talking about a person's individual awareness of their inner thoughts, sensations, memories, feelings and the environment that surrounds them. So you're talking about a living person because only living persons have consciousness.

But here's the thing, you agree that what makes someone made in the image of God is a person who is made to make moral judgments, as that is how humans were designed by God, to reflect his character. And, can we really separate our consciousness from our ability to reason and make moral judgments?

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

The most reasonably consistent understanding I have taken from scripture is that "soul" refers to the body/spirit combination, what God created combined with God's own breath. The body alone is just the "body." The spirit alone is the "spirit." when they are combined they are a "soul."

Yes I agree, It takes a human body and the spirit combined together to be a living soul or living person. This agrees with Genesis 2:7. I agree that the human body alone without the spirit isn't a living soul or living person, and the spirit alone not being in a human body isn't a living soul or living person.