soul = spirit?

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

How is it that God in three persons is spirit and doesn't need to be in a body to be living or angels to be a living.

I don't believe the True God to be a three person spirit. I believe the True God to be a Spirit but not a three person spirit. No one has seen the true God at any time. Human beings being bound by visible realities can't see into the spirit realm. For God to describe himself to us in spirit terms would be like trying to explain details of your appearance, such as your eye color or freckles, to someone born blind.

As far as angels go, the scriptures teach us at 1Corinthians 15:44 there are physical bodies, visible and palpable, there are also spiritual bodies, invisible to human eyes and entirely beyond human senses. The bodies of spirit persons like angels are glorious.
The angels are far more powerful than men.(2 Peter 2:11) They are glorious, brilliant ones and have appeared as such in physical manifestations.(Matthew 28:2-4; Luke 2:9)

 

[didactics]

I don't believe the True God to be a three person spirit. I believe the True God to be a Spirit but not a three person spirit. No one has seen the true God at any time. Human beings being bound by visible realities can't see into the spirit realm. For God to describe himself to us in spirit terms would be like trying to explain details of your appearance, such as your eye color or freckles, to someone born blind.

As far as angels go, the scriptures teach us at 1Corinthians 15:44 there are physical bodies, visible and palpable, there are also spiritual bodies, invisible to human eyes and entirely beyond human senses. The bodies of spirit persons like angels are glorious.
The angels are far more powerful than men.(2 Peter 2:11) They are glorious, brilliant ones and have appeared as such in physical manifestations.(Matthew 28:2-4; Luke 2:9)

The Westminster Confession affirms the Godhead in three persons (1Jo 5:7; Mat 3:16-17; Mat 28:19; 2Co 13:14). And get this, how mind boggling this is, the second person of the trinity took upon human nature and "was made flesh". His physical manifestation did not have to be reflected in a way that drew much attention (Is 53:2). Angels have manifested, but who has ever heard of such a thing, that God would experience all the sufferings of a mortal and die? How do we reconcile this? God will never be subject to decay, so in raising him from the dead he forever will have his human nature (Acts 13:34). But even in death, his person was in paradise.

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

The Westminster Confession affirms the Godhead in three persons (1Jo 5:7; Mat 3:16-17; Mat 28:19; 2Co 13:14). And get this, how mind boggling this is, the second person of the trinity took upon human nature and "was made flesh". His physical manifestation did not have to be reflected in a way that drew much attention (Is 53:2). Angels have manifested, but who has ever heard of such a thing, that God would experience all the sufferings of a mortal and die? How do we reconcile this? God will never be subject to decay, so in raising him from the dead he forever will have his human nature (Acts 13:34). But even in death, his person was in paradise.

I know that there are those that believe God to be three persons in a Godhead, I just don't find the doctrine in the scriptures.
I have met some people who believe God to be three persons in a Godhead, and so believe the second person of the trinity to be Jesus Christ and he took on human nature, "was made flesh." Although they say they believe the word to be Jesus Christ they say it was God who became flesh/human or "was made flesh." It's my understanding that the Word is the only begotten Son of God, so when the scriptures say the word became flesh/human it's my understanding it was the only begotten Son of God who took on human nature. So it was the only begotten Son of God who was given the name Jesus when he took on human nature.

God can't die, when human beings die they cease to exist as living persons. It's impossible for God to cease to exist as a living person. The Word is the only begotten Son of God, it was the only begotten Son of God who took on human nature, it was the only begotten Son of God who sacrificed his human body.

 

[Andrewn]

When someone asks me, Does the spirit/consciousness also become unconscious? That person is letting me know that he/she believes Genesis 2:7 is saying God gave the flesh and blood human body a living soul or living person, because when most people talk about consciousness, they're talking about a person's individual awareness of their inner thoughts, sensations, memories, feelings and the environment that surrounds them. So you're talking about a living person because only living persons have consciousness. Genesis 2:7 doesn't say God gave a living soul or living person to the flesh and blood human body but instead says that the flesh and blood human body BECAME a living soul or living person. That means not that consciousness was given to the flesh and blood human body, but the flesh and blood human body became conscious when God blew the breath of life in the flesh and blood human body.
It seems to me when a person thinks consciousness continues to exist after a human being dies that person is saying there is no death but instead that person seems to believe that death is just a doorway to another plain of existence where that person continues living, because to have consciousness you have to be a living person.

So, in your understanding, what is the neshama that God gave Adam?

 

[Divide]

Our spirit is not made perfect as it is in the process of being made perfect.

Are you sure? Why would God give us a new spirit, that is corrupted? He wouldn't. But the curse of the fall and sin has damaged our soul and our body, so much so that it is a process of sanctification which takes time. The soul and the flesh.

We had a perfect spirit, albeit young and not yet grown up in Adam & Eve.. Then Adam & Eve sinned so everyone from that point on was born spiritually dead. Ye must be born again...

Don't confuse being perfect in spirit with being perfect in the flesh, which isnt possible. So because you feel like you are in no way perfect in the flesh doesn't mean that your spirit man is not perfect? We have a spirit again! One who is taught by the Holy Spirit and leads us into all truth.

If you being a good father give your son a stone when he asks for bread?

Matthew 7:9
9 “You parents—if your children ask for a loaf of bread, do you give them a stone instead? 10 Or if they ask for a fish, do you give them a snake? Of course not! 11 So if you sinful people know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your heavenly Father give good gifts to those who ask him.../NLT

That seems pretty clear to me that God wont gift us with a Broken down spirit when we get Born again in spirit.

If you have scriptures that say our reborn spirit is corrupted, I'd like to read those.

We are created in the image of God. God is tripartite, Father/Son/Holy Spirit. Man also has three parts, Spirit/Soul/Body.

1 Thessalonians 5:23
23 Now may the God of peace make you holy in every way, and may your whole spirit and soul and body be kept blameless until our Lord Jesus Christ comes again. 24 God will make this happen, for he who calls you is faithful.../NLT

According to that scripture, we must keep ourselves blameless and holy. Ok the Lord started with our spirit and told us that a sanctification process must take place after we are born again. That's the soul, the carnal self which must be overcome. The flesh with it's many drives and lusts are to be brought into subjection to the spirit.

Agree?

 

[RDKirk]

There seems to be some confusion as to what "perfect" means. I'd suggest you all make sure you're using the word the same way.

 

[Divide]

There seems to be some confusion as to what "perfect" means. I'd suggest you all make sure you're using the word the same way.

Our Lord does not expect perfection from us, He knows all would fail. That's why we needed Jesus! Oh, I know.

Matthew 5:48
48 But you are to be perfect, even as your Father in heaven is perfect.../NLT

I can link you to what the BLB says about Perfect. It says it's an adjective.

G5046 - teleios - Strong's Greek Lexicon (kjv)

G5046 - τέλειος téleios, tel'-i-os; from ; complete (in various applications of labor, growth, mental and moral character, etc.); neuter (as noun, with ) completeness:—of full age, man, perfect.

www.blueletterbible.org

John 3:
5 Jesus replied, “I assure you, no one can enter the Kingdom of God without being born of water and the Spirit.[b] 6 Humans can reproduce only human life, but the Holy Spirit gives birth to spiritual life.[c] 7 So don’t be surprised when I say, ‘You[d] must be born again.’ 8 The wind blows wherever it wants. Just as you can hear the wind but can’t tell where it comes from or where it is going, so you can’t explain how people are born of the Spirit.”.../NLT

We cry out to God to save us. He responds by giving us a new spirit. Apparently the Holy Spirit gives birth to our spiritual life (v. 6). I don't see how our new spirit can be imperfect? The Holy Spirit (GOD) does not give damaged gifts. So the Lord sees (Christ's) righteousness upon us in Christ, hence, our spirit is perfect. Sinless. Our conscience is (probably) the voice of our spirit. And he always tells us to do the right thing. The best thing.

Ok so, perfect spirit, not perfect soul or flesh body. We are told repeatedly in scripture, overcome the flesh. Deny the flesh. Feed your spirit. It is your spirit that gets his spiritual advice directly from the Holy Spirit.

Our carnal self is the other one that argues with you in your head and says, go ahead and do it, it'll be fun! Nobody will know...But if you exercise your spirit by listening to your own conscience and denying the flesh (fasting or whatever), it is possible to overcome the flesh and bring it into subjection to the Spirit. Be led by the Spirit, walk in the Spirit....

Receiving a wonderful new perfect spirit from the Lord is awesome. But it's also for us, the beginning of our walk with the Lord. What next? Read the word, pray look towards the spirit.

I don't see any holes in that.

 

[Divide]

I think most people think of themselves as one person, and that's true but we have three parts. The spirit is like the Angel on our right shoulder, and the soul is against the spirit and only seeks pleasure at whatever cost. He's like the bad guy on your left shoulder. But they both have distinct personalities and each one has it's own voice. Can you tell when a thought pops into your head who was talking? I've heard, my soul (carnal self), my spirit (conscience), the body (I'm hungry) and the still small voice of God. And I suspect that is actually the Holy Spirit? SO, four voices but it's still fairly easy to figure who's talking in your head. Do what's right! My spirit/conscience. Go ahead and steal it! That's the soul, lol.


Deny the flesh by fasting however long you want to. I was going to buy that big Chocolate bar but I did not because my flesh WILL come into subjection to the spirit! Don't watch that bad good movie. Tell the flesh to shut up and stand down, lol.

I did a digital fast one time. No tv screens, no phone, tablets or anything. Said Ha! to my flesh. It was the worst 1/2 hour of my life, lol.

The flesh wants everything it can with it's 5 senses. That covers a lot of ground. Food sex, entertainment, all that stuff in the funhouses of death upon this planet. That's why Jesus says, come out of the world...

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

So, in your understanding, what is the neshama that God gave Adam?

At Genesis 7:21-23 in describing the floods destruction of "all flesh" outside the ark, lists the animal creatures along with mankind and say: "Everything in which the breath [form of neshamah] of the force of life was active in it's nostrils, namely, all that were on the dry ground died." Obviously, the breath of life of the animal creation originally came from the Creator, YHWH God. The expression "breath of the force of life[literally, breath of the spirit of life] breath =neshamah and spirit=ruach. So Genesis 7:22 confirms Ecclesiastes 3:19-21 when it says that humans and animals have the same spirit.
Genesis 6:17 says, "And as for me, here I am bringing the deluge of waters upon the earth to bring to ruin all flesh in which the force of life is active from under the heavens." [literally, in which the active force(spirit) of life]
So God blew the same breath in animals that he blew in humans and both humans and animals have the same spirit. Just as when animals die and they cease being living souls or living animals, when human beings die they cease being living souls or living persons. Human beings have no superiority in death .

 

[didactics]

Are you sure? Why would God give us a new spirit, that is corrupted? He wouldn't. But the curse of the fall and sin has damaged our soul and our body, so much so that it is a process of sanctification which takes time. The soul and the flesh.

We had a perfect spirit, albeit young and not yet grown up in Adam & Eve.. Then Adam & Eve sinned so everyone from that point on was born spiritually dead. Ye must be born again...

Don't confuse being perfect in spirit with being perfect in the flesh, which isnt possible. So because you feel like you are in no way perfect in the flesh doesn't mean that your spirit man is not perfect? We have a spirit again! One who is taught by the Holy Spirit and leads us into all truth.

If you being a good father give your son a stone when he asks for bread?

Matthew 7:9
9 “You parents—if your children ask for a loaf of bread, do you give them a stone instead? 10 Or if they ask for a fish, do you give them a snake? Of course not! 11 So if you sinful people know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your heavenly Father give good gifts to those who ask him.../NLT

That seems pretty clear to me that God wont gift us with a Broken down spirit when we get Born again in spirit.

If you have scriptures that say our reborn spirit is corrupted, I'd like to read those.

We are created in the image of God. God is tripartite, Father/Son/Holy Spirit. Man also has three parts, Spirit/Soul/Body.

1 Thessalonians 5:23
23 Now may the God of peace make you holy in every way, and may your whole spirit and soul and body be kept blameless until our Lord Jesus Christ comes again. 24 God will make this happen, for he who calls you is faithful.../NLT

According to that scripture, we must keep ourselves blameless and holy. Ok the Lord started with our spirit and told us that a sanctification process must take place after we are born again. That's the soul, the carnal self which must be overcome. The flesh with it's many drives and lusts are to be brought into subjection to the spirit.

Agree?

Luther once described the essence of the reformation view with this one latin phrase, simul justus et peccator (simultaneously just/righteous and sinner). The following is a transcript from R.C. Sproul.


—In and of ourselves, under the analysis of God's scrutiny, we still have sin; we're still sinners. But, by imputation and by faith in Jesus Christ, whose righteousness is now transferred to our account, then we are considered just or righteous. This is the very heart of the gospel.

—But at the heart of the gospel is a double-imputation. My sin is imputed to Jesus. His righteousness is imputed to me. And in this two-fold transaction we see that God, Who does not negotiate sin, Who doesn't compromise His own integrity with our salvation, but rather punishes sin fully and really after it has been imputed to Jesus, retains His own righteousness, and so He is both just and the justifier, as the apostle tells us here. So my sin goes to Jesus, His righteousness comes to me in the sight of God.
[end quote]


But about this “new spirit” you say, how can this be corrupted? It can’t be corrupted, but keep in mind this new spirit or new nature is the life of Christ in us, the Holy Spirit’s leading to make us more like Christ as we turn to his Word. Lastly, I see no need to make a distinction between soul and spirit as though one is conscience and the other is carnal because everyone whether saved or not has a conscience.

 

[Divide]

But about this “new spirit” you say, how can this be corrupted? It can’t be corrupted, but keep in mind this new spirit or new nature is the life of Christ in us, the Holy Spirit’s leading to make us more like Christ as we turn to his Word. Lastly, I see no need to make a distinction between soul and spirit as though one is conscience and the other is carnal because everyone whether saved or not has a conscience.

I agree that our spirit can not be corrupted of course but the scriptures make a distinction between spirit and soul so we should too. That's a good point that even people who are not saved have a conscience too, so maybe I'm wrong about the conscience being the voice of our spirit. Maybe our conscience is the Holy Spirit talking to us?

 

[RDKirk]

I agree that our spirit can not be corrupted of course but the scriptures make a distinction between spirit and soul so we should too. That's a good point that even people who are not saved have a conscience too, so maybe I'm wrong about the conscience being the voice of our spirit. Maybe our conscience is the Holy Spirit talking to us?

Two particular philosophies are directly mentioned in scripture, and it's helpful to understand them, because they are directly competitive in their "moral satisfaction."

The Epicureans (a branch of Hedonism) believed that the body was a finely tuned moral instrument that advised people what was right and wrong. If an action felt good according to the body, it was a morally right action; if it felt wrong to the body, it was a morally wrong action. Literally, "their gods were their bellies." The morality of Epicureanism lies in accepting "what comes naturally" as the basic good.

Stoics depended more on rationality than the desires of the flesh, and in many ways a stoic thus looked outwardly like a Christian.

In one way or another, derivatives of Epicureanism and Stoicism are still the "morally satisfying" competitors of Christianity.

 

[Aaron112]

conscience

30 times from Biblegateway.com >

• All (30)

 

[didactics]

I agree that our spirit can not be corrupted of course but the scriptures make a distinction between spirit and soul so we should too. That's a good point that even people who are not saved have a conscience too, so maybe I'm wrong about the conscience being the voice of our spirit. Maybe our conscience is the Holy Spirit talking to us?

I don't know, but I would say that God helps his own to have a clean conscience. Maybe what I can say is that the Holy Spirit uses our conscience to speak to us but he is not our conscience. If we possess the truth because we embrace the message of the gospel, he leads us into all truth. It makes me think of this verse, 1 John 2:27. This principle is not saying we don't need a preacher but that we don't need a new teacher to tell us something that adds to the Bible.

 

[Aussie Pete]

I think that you're reading a lot into the passage, that the biblical author didn't necessarily mean.
I think that your methodology in Scripture study, is really flawed.

The idea that spirit and soul are distinct faculties of humanity has been around for a very long time. It is possible to tease out the different functions from God's word, but it takes a bit of effort. The spirit is most certainly not the soul and the soul is not the spirit.

If you want a comprehensive explanation, I suggest "The Spiritual Man" by Watchman Nee". It's not for the faint hearted or superficial. You will also need to be teachable.

 

[Aaron112]

I don't know, but I would say that God helps his own to have a clean conscience.

I think at least in the book of Hebrews in the NT is a clear description of
how we may have a clear conscience even today , in the presence of God's throne today, in Christ.

 

[Andrewn]

At Genesis 7:21-23 in describing the floods destruction of "all flesh" outside the ark, lists the animal creatures along with mankind and say: "Everything in which the breath [form of neshamah] of the force of life was active in it's nostrils, namely, all that were on the dry ground died." Obviously, the breath of life of the animal creation originally came from the Creator, YHWH God. The expression "breath of the force of life[literally, breath of the spirit of life] breath =neshamah and spirit=ruach.

Gen 7:22 is confusing as it includes both neshama and ruah. I'd rather not make any conclusions based on this single verse, especially that the LXX has only "the breath of life."

So Genesis 7:22 confirms Ecclesiastes 3:19-21 when it says that humans and animals have the same spirit.

Ecclesiastes 3:19-21 says that humans and animals have the same ruah. I take this to mean that they have the same breath.

Genesis 6:17 says, "And as for me, here I am bringing the deluge of waters upon the earth to bring to ruin all flesh in which the force of life is active from under the heavens." [literally, in which the active force(spirit) of life]. So God blew the same breath in animals that he blew in humans and both humans and animals have the same spirit.

Gen 6:17 also has the word ruah/breath. So I disagree that animals have the same breath.

Just as when animals die and they cease being living souls or living animals, when human beings die they cease being living souls or living persons. Human beings have no superiority in death .

When animals and human beings die, they no longer have breath. But I believe humans still have spirit/consciousness.

 

[Divide]

Two particular philosophies are directly mentioned in scripture, and it's helpful to understand them, because they are directly competitive in their "moral satisfaction."

The Epicureans (a branch of Hedonism) believed that the body was a finely tuned moral instrument that advised people what was right and wrong. If an action felt good according to the body, it was a morally right action; if it felt wrong to the body, it was a morally wrong action. Literally, "their gods were their bellies." The morality of Epicureanism lies in accepting "what comes naturally" as the basic good.

Stoics depended more on rationality than the desires of the flesh, and in many ways a stoic thus looked outwardly like a Christian.

In one way or another, derivatives of Epicureanism and Stoicism are still the "morally satisfying" competitors of Christianity.

A finely tuned moral instrument that advised people what was right and wrong...

Wow that sounds like our Conscience. Maybe this is relevant to

Romans 1:20
20 For ever since the world was created, people have seen the earth and sky. Through everything God made, they can clearly see his invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature. So they have no excuse for not knowing God.../NLT

So like I have said before that atheists are liars because they know very well that God exists...in their conscience! So maybe our conscience is our last ditch safety valve from God to steer even unbelievers the right direction? Even with no relationship with the Lord, they still know. The Atheists that go to war start Believing and hoping again once they become under hostile fire, lol. There are no atheists in foxholes. Because they have a conscience.

One of those 30 scriptures that Aaron112 posted the link to said it isn't the Holy Spirit either. I must've read that hundreds of times and didn't realize just how much the scriptures say about our conscience! It's a lot. I wanted to post a couple but then this would get too long.

There's other ways too that God gave us to help and protect us. Ever have a gut feeling about something? How about, I could feel it in my heart that...? To help and protect His children, even if they are unbelievers.

 

[Divide]

From what I understand they now say that our stomach has the same type cells in it that the brain has. So not only does it receive signals from the brain but it also sends signals to the brain. I think this is what we call, intuition. A spiritual sense maybe?

Not only that but the heart has brain cells in it. More than the brain does if I remember right. So were all those teenage girls right? (should I follow my head or follow my heart?)
Scripture says we are not to lean upon our own understanding and knowledge and speaks more about our heart. Interesting.

Sorry for the thread drift.

 

[Divide]

I think at least in the book of Hebrews in the NT is a clear description of
how we may have a clear conscience even today , in the presence of God's throne today, in Christ.

Hebrews 10:22 9:14