soul = spirit?

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

Well of course the soul is not designed to be separate from the human body, but you're forgetting one very important detail, namely the fall of man. That made things different. There used to be harmony between heaven and earth. But now we are subject to death, disease, famine and war. Scripture confirms this too. Take for example what Jesus said to the thief on the cross, “Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in paradise” (Luke 23:43). Now, how can he be with him in paradise before he receives his resurrected body?

The fall of man doesn't change how the True God YHWH created human beings. When Adam fell into sin he didn't change from being a living soul to having a living soul. Nowhere in the scriptures does it even suggest that.

Also at Luke 23:43 Jesus wasn't saying that thief that was put to death beside him that he would be in paradise that exact day. Jesus was in the grave three days and scripture confirms this. Scripture also confirms that Jesus didn't go into heaven until 40 days after he was resurrected. Noone was resurrected to eternal life and went into heaven before Jesus. So this thief that died beside Jesus will be resurrected on the last day when the resurrection of the righteous and unrighteous begins, who will be resurrected on a paradise earth. This is still in the future.

 

[didactics]

The fall of man doesn't change how the True God YHWH created human beings. When Adam fell into sin he didn't change from being a living soul to having a living soul. Nowhere in the scriptures does it even suggest that.

Also at Luke 23:43 Jesus wasn't saying that thief that was put to death beside him that he would be in paradise that exact day. Jesus was in the grave three days and scripture confirms this. Scripture also confirms that Jesus didn't go into heaven until 40 days after he was resurrected. Noone was resurrected to eternal life and went into heaven before Jesus. So this thief that died beside Jesus will be resurrected on the last day when the resurrection of the righteous and unrighteous begins, who will be resurrected on a paradise earth. This is still in the future.

There's just one problem, paradise is heaven. And the difference after 40 days is he ascended there in his body. At the end Jesus will restore heaven on earth, so you are correct in saying it will be paradise earth.

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

There's just one problem, paradise is heaven. And the difference after 40 days is he ascended there in his body. At the end Jesus will restore heaven on earth, so you are correct in saying it will be paradise earth.

No paradise was on earth. Eden was a paradise.

The Paradise of which Jesus spoke to the thief, is clearly not a paradise in heaven. Earlier that day Jesus had said that to get into the heavenly Kingdom that Jesus had spoken to his faithful disciples was only on the basis of their having ‘stuck with him in his trials,’ something the thief had never done. The thief dying beside Jesus was clearly because of his own acts as a thief. (Luke 22:28-30; 23:40, 41) The thief obviously had not been “born again,” of water and spirit, which Jesus showed was necessary to enter into the Kingdom of the heavens. (John 3:3-6) Nor was the thief one of the ‘conquerors’ that the glorified Christ Jesus stated would be with him on his heavenly throne and that have a share in “the first resurrection.”—Revelation 3:11, 12, 21; 12:10, 11; 14:1-4; 20:4-6. So no, the paradise that Jesus spoke about to the thief was a paradise earth. Jesus was promising a restoration of an earthly paradise condition like Eden.

 

[didactics]

No paradise was on earth. Eden was a paradise.

The Paradise of which Jesus spoke to the thief, is clearly not a paradise in heaven. Earlier that day Jesus had said that to get into the heavenly Kingdom that Jesus had spoken to his faithful disciples was only on the basis of their having ‘stuck with him in his trials,’ something the thief had never done. The thief dying beside Jesus was clearly because of his own acts as a thief. (Luke 22:28-30; 23:40, 41) The thief obviously had not been “born again,” of water and spirit, which Jesus showed was necessary to enter into the Kingdom of the heavens. (John 3:3-6) Nor was the thief one of the ‘conquerors’ that the glorified Christ Jesus stated would be with him on his heavenly throne and that have a share in “the first resurrection.”—Revelation 3:11, 12, 21; 12:10, 11; 14:1-4; 20:4-6. So no, the paradise that Jesus spoke about to the thief was a paradise earth. Jesus was promising a restoration of an earthly paradise condition like Eden.

The repentant thief was assured common salvation, whether there be degrees of future glory is another matter, and he was born again. He didn't think of it a small matter to call him Lord and he referred to paradise earth as his kingdom (Lk 23:42). Think of the Lord's Prayer, Your kingdom come Your will be done on earth as it is in heaven (Mt 6:10). Why I insist that paradise meant he would see Christ that same day is because his very real presence would be with the deceased saints. Think about what made Eden a paradise. It was that God walked among them in the garden (Ge 3:8). In one sense, God's presence is everywhere, yes. But his close relational presence is with all those who have been born again.

No paradise was on earth. Eden was a paradise.

The Paradise of which Jesus spoke to the thief, is clearly not a paradise in heaven. Earlier that day Jesus had said that to get into the heavenly Kingdom that Jesus had spoken to his faithful disciples was only on the basis of their having ‘stuck with him in his trials,’ something the thief had never done. The thief dying beside Jesus was clearly because of his own acts as a thief. (Luke 22:28-30; 23:40, 41) The thief obviously had not been “born again,” of water and spirit, which Jesus showed was necessary to enter into the Kingdom of the heavens. (John 3:3-6) Nor was the thief one of the ‘conquerors’ that the glorified Christ Jesus stated would be with him on his heavenly throne and that have a share in “the first resurrection.”—Revelation 3:11, 12, 21; 12:10, 11; 14:1-4; 20:4-6. So no, the paradise that Jesus spoke about to the thief was a paradise earth. Jesus was promising a restoration of an earthly paradise condition like Eden.

Wait, you're quoting from the new world translation. That means you're a Jehovah's Witnesses? No wonder I haven't been following what you're saying. I'm not clued in what they believe about a lot of things, I just know I'm not for it. One reason being that it claims to have a modern-day prophet.

But back to the argument. I don't agree with the NWT, so I don't see it that only those having "stuck with him in his trials" get into the heavenly kingdom. It was "bestowed" upon the apostles because they were the forerunners* of the gospel. Because all genuine converts whether new or old are born again. If the penitent thief on the cross was not born again, he would not inherit the earth.

*my mistake, they were the primary disciples of Jesus