The little horn in Daniel 8 poll

[David Kent]

Why would anyone ever think that ?

Here are the horsemen on my chart of the seven seals, with explanation of the horsemen. These things take place at the end of the age.

Are you looking forward to your redeemed everlasting, eternal, incorruptible body ? That also happens at the end of the age.

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The four horsemen are at the beginning of the Revelation which is a history of the church written in advance. Your charts are meaningless fantasy as far asi can see. I suggest you read Gibbons Decline and Fall and you will see all the visions acted out.

 

[Jamdoc]

Revelation 6:1-11

It is this sort of nonsense that makes people go right off the Prophesies.
He isn't a spiritual being, he will be taken over by Satan, but never leaves the earth.

Daniel 26 The revelation given of the evenings and mornings is true, nut you must keep the vision secret, at it points to a time far ahead. REBible.
Daniel lived when Judah was conquered by Babylon; in 586 BC.
The fulfilment of Daniel; 8:14, happened in 167 t0 164 BC, 419 years later. It was a far distant time!

People who cite Jesus as being wrong because their pet theories are challenged, should be more careful, as doing that is blasphemous.

That's not what Daniel 8 says.
Daniel 8 says the vision of the ram and the he-goat and the little horn were for the time of the end.
not BC.

 

[Timtofly]

The five seals were on what ? I will answer since you don't know, anyway. The seals were on the end of the age book (scoll) that Jesus opened.

This book is the Lamb's book of life that was written, sealed, and in place prior to the foundation of the world. It was made possible by the Lamb's blood shed on the Cross. The book is not opened until the time of the Second Coming. That is why only Jesus is worthy to open the Seals.

 

[Douggg]

This book is the Lamb's book of life that was written, sealed, and in place prior to the foundation of the world. It was made possible by the Lamb's blood shed on the Cross. The book is not opened until the time of the Second Coming. That is why only Jesus is worthy to open the Seals.

No, it is not the Lamb's book of life, because that book has people's names written it, and there are well over a billion names in it, because of the number of Christians over history.

Reference to The Lamb's book of life is found in the end of the age book that Jesus unsealed - in Revelation 13...

8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

 

[keras]

Where does it say the rider on the white horse came back to earth ? Came back to earth from where?

I was asking you that.
The answer is: The 4 horsemen are allegories and the wars, famines, plagues, plus all the Christian martyrs, are what has happened since 1the first Century.
Revelation 5:7 proves the scroll was handed to Jesus and He opened the first five then.

Your thinking they are yet to happen, is wrong and contrary to Prophecy.
The Sixth Seal will be opened soon and the disasters described will take place then. The first event of the end time prophesies.

 

[David Kent]

That's not what Daniel 8 says.
Daniel 8 says the vision of the ram and the he-goat and the little horn were for the time of the end.
not BC.

The end of the indignation verse 19.
Then we read, verse 20 that the Ram is the kings of Media And Persia, we have already come across them in Chapter 7.
The Rough He Goat is the Greek empire and the great horn is Alexander.
And in the latter time of THEIR kingdom. the Greek kingdom, a king of fierce countenance will stand up. This seems to be the king of the nation of fierce countenance which we meet in Deuteronomy 28:50. the Romans.
NOT THE TIME OF THE END OF ALL THINGS.

 

[David Kent]

No, it is not the Lamb's book of life, because that book has people's names written it, and there are well over a billion names in it, because of the number of Christians over history.

Reference to The Lamb's book of life is found in the end of the age book that Jesus unsealed - in Revelation 13...

8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Again I agree with you, TO A POINT.

The little book in Revelation 10 is the gospels being preached at the reformation, books which had long been banned.

 

[Timtofly]

No, it is not the Lamb's book of life, because that book has people's names written it, and there are well over a billion names in it, because of the number of Christians over history.

Reference to The Lamb's book of life is found in the end of the age book that Jesus unsealed - in Revelation 13...

8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Of course it is the Lamb's book of life. Every human ever conceived is in that book. It has never been opened to remove any names. It will not be opened until after the Second Coming, the 6th Seal.

It was the Lamb who was slain in God's perspective before creation. As well as the Lamb's book of life. All names have also been there. Until they are removed after the Second Coming. No one was left out and not covered. They will start to be removed after the 7th Seal is opened.

 

[Douggg]

Of course it is the Lamb's book of life. Every human ever conceived is in that book. It has never been opened to remove any names. It will not be opened until after the Second Coming, the 6th Seal.

The sealed book is not the Lamb's book of life - because if it were, Revelation would contain over a billion names and be thousand of pages long.

 

[Douggg]

The little book in Revelation 10 is the gospels being preached at the reformation, books which had long been banned.

How did you come to that conclusion ?

It appears to me that the little book is the chapters of Revelation following Revelation 11:15, when the 7 angel sounds. And the mystery of God unfolds.


Revelation 10:

7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

8 And the voice which I heard from heaven spake unto me again, and said, Go and take the little book which is open in the hand of the angel which standeth upon the sea and upon the earth.

 

[David Kent]

How did you come to that conclusion ?

It appears to me that the little book is the chapters of Revelation following Revelation 11:15, when the 7 angel sounds. And the mystery of God unfolds.


Revelation 10:

7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

8 And the voice which I heard from heaven spake unto me again, and said, Go and take the little book which is open in the hand of the angel which standeth upon the sea and upon the earth.



View attachment 336073

You are so far off beam that it would take years to explain it to you, and I don't have enough years left.

In prophecy you have to look at the symbols and connect them all together.
For instance the 2 witnesses are also candlesticks and olive trees. If you look at Revelation 1 you will find candlesticks are churches. Olive tree give oil so the witnesses are witnessing churches fed by the oil of the Holy Spirit. the seven candlesticks in Revelation 1, refer to the entire church. The two candlesticks in Revelation 11 refer to the church in its depleted stage in the dark ages. Two being the minimum no of witnesses allowed under the law. Through the dark ages of apostacy and persecution Jesus had always had a witness. They came under different names.

 

[Timtofly]

The sealed book is not the Lamb's book of life - because if it were, Revelation would contain over a billion names and be thousand of pages long.

The book unsealed is not the book of Revelation. The book of Revelation is what John sees and writes down. Everything in the book of Revelation was written by John. John did not write the Lamb's book of life. John wrote the book of Revelation. The book of Revelation was not sealed. John was dictating the first 3 chapters before he even witnessed the Lamb's book of life in heaven before the throne. Once the Lamb's book of life is unsealed, then Jesus will judge the sheep and the goats, and the goats will be removed from the Lamb's book of life. That is when they are cast into the LOF. No one has been nor can be removed until the 7th Seal is opened.

 

[Jamdoc]

The end of the indignation verse 19.
Then we read, verse 20 that the Ram is the kings of Media And Persia, we have already come across them in Chapter 7.
The Rough He Goat is the Greek empire and the great horn is Alexander.
And in the latter time of THEIR kingdom. the Greek kingdom, a king of fierce countenance will stand up. This seems to be the king of the nation of fierce countenance which we meet in Deuteronomy 28:50. the Romans.
NOT THE TIME OF THE END OF ALL THINGS.

wrong, and wrong and wrong again.
the entire vision was for the end times. That is what Gabriel said.

Alexander was not the fulfillment.
Alexander was Alexander III, the 23rd king of Macedonia.
the king in Daniel 8 is the FIRST king.

Alexander may have been a foreshadow, but he was not who the vision was about.

 

[David Kent]

wrong, and wrong and wrong again.

the entire vision was for the end times. That is what Gabriel said.



Alexander was not the fulfillment.

Alexander was Alexander III, the 23rd king of Macedonia.

the king in Daniel 8 is the FIRST king.



Alexander may have been a foreshadow, but he was not who the vision was about.

No it is you that is wrong. Alexander was the first King of the Greek Empire. Before that he was king of Macedonia. He is plainly described in the vision.
His conquests were so rapid it seems his feet didn't touch the ground, he conquered the two horns, the Medes and Persians. Read the whole chapter carefully.

 

[Jamdoc]

No it is you that is wrong. Alexander was the first King of the Greek Empire. Before that he was king of Macedonia. He is plainly described in the vision.
His conquests were so rapid it seems his feet didn't touch the ground, he conquered the two horns, the Medes and Persians. Read the whole chapter carefully.

17 So he came near where I stood: and when he came, I was afraid, and fell upon my face: but he said unto me, Understand, O son of man: for at the time of the end shall be the vision.

Nope, it's going to be the first king of Javan, and it will be the time of the end.
Not BC.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

That's not what Daniel 8 says.
Daniel 8 says the vision of the ram and the he-goat and the little horn were for the time of the end.
not BC.

That's not what Daniel 8 says, either.

Daniel 8:19 He said: “I am going to tell you what will happen later in the time of wrath, because the vision concerns the appointed time of the end.[c] 20 The two-horned ram that you saw represents the kings of Media and Persia. 21 The shaggy goat is the king of Greece, and the large horn between its eyes is the first king.

When this refers to "the appointed time of the end" it's not talking about the same "time of the end" referenced elsewhere in Daniel. This verse has a footnote in the NIV saying "Or because the end will be at the appointed time". It's not saying this would occur at the time of the end, it's saying the end, as it relates to this prophecy, would come at the appointed time. The idea that this prophecy is about the future is just silly.

Look at verse 20. That is an obvious reference to the Medo-Persian empire which took place from around 539 to 330 BC. Then verse 21 is an obvious reference to the Greek empire that came into power right after the Greeks put an end to the Persian empire.

 

[Jamdoc]

That's not what Daniel 8 says, either.

Daniel 8:19 He said: “I am going to tell you what will happen later in the time of wrath, because the vision concerns the appointed time of the end.[c] 20 The two-horned ram that you saw represents the kings of Media and Persia. 21 The shaggy goat is the king of Greece, and the large horn between its eyes is the first king.

When this refers to "the appointed time of the end" it's not talking about the same "time of the end" referenced elsewhere in Daniel. This verse has a footnote in the NIV saying "Or because the end will be at the appointed time". It's not saying this would occur at the time of the end, it's saying the end, as it relates to this prophecy, would come at the appointed time. The idea that this prophecy is about the future is just silly.

Look at verse 20. That is an obvious reference to the Medo-Persian empire which took place from around 539 to 330 BC. Then verse 21 is an obvious reference to the Greek empire that came into power right after the Greeks put an end to the Persian empire.

Yes the scripture does say Persia, and Javan, Javan is usually translated as Greece, I'll leave that open as to whether that's accurate or a mistake by translators, but in Genesis 10, the term in Hebrew is translated Javan, in Daniel 8 they translate the same term as Greece.

Genesis 10

2 The sons of Japheth; Gomer, and Magog, and Madai, and Javan, and Tubal, and Meshech, and Tiras.
3 And the sons of Gomer; Ashkenaz, and Riphath, and Togarmah.
4 And the sons of Javan; Elishah, and Tarshish, Kittim, and Dodanim.
5 By these were the isles of the Gentiles divided in their lands; every one after his tongue, after their families, in their nations.

What's identified specifically is people groups descended from Japheth. As to that being Greeks? well, possibly. I'm gonna say Javan just for biblical consistency, but it could be Greek, sure. Maps I've seen usually put the Javanites on the west coast of Turkey and Istanbul area., but Greek Empire also encompassed that area, so we'll let that hang as a possible.

But what the bible says that you are all ignoring is:

17 So he came near where I stood: and when he came, I was afraid, and fell upon my face: but he said unto me, Understand, O son of man: for at the time of the end shall be the vision.

This vision is about the end times, not the 300-150BC's.
That means that there will be a Greek.. or Turkic, Javanite in other words Empire that will attack Iran, or Persia. It may have seemed like we got a "close" fulfillment in the past, but because Gabriel says this vision will happen at the time of the end, means that it will be perfectly fulfilled in the future.
This vision will happen at the time of the end.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Yes the scripture does say Persia, and Javan, Javan is usually translated as Greece, I'll leave that open as to whether that's accurate or a mistake by translators, but in Genesis 10, the term in Hebrew is translated Javan, in Daniel 8 they translate the same term as Greece.

I don't know what you're talking about here.

But what the bible says that you are all ignoring is:

This vision is about the end times, not the 300-150BC's.

I addressed this. You are wrong about that. Did you ignore what I said about this?

That means that there will be a Greek.. or Turkic, Javanite in other words Empire that will attack Iran, or Persia. It may have seemed like we got a "close" fulfillment in the past, but because Gabriel says this vision will happen at the time of the end, means that it will be perfectly fulfilled in the future.
This vision will happen at the time of the end.

No, it indicates that it will happen at the appointed time. You are misinterpreting the text. It's very obvious that it's talking about the ancient Medo Persian and Greek empires. Why deny something so obvious? I don't get it. We should be celebrating how the Bible accurately prophesied about those empires while being in awe of God's foreknowledge and here you are denying that it has anything to do with that.

 

[Jamdoc]

I don't know what you're talking about here.

Okay, the term used in the Hebrew that is translated to "Grecia" or "Greece" is יָוָ֑ן or "ja-wan", it is used in more places in the bible than Daniel 8. In Daniel and Zechariah they translate that term to Greece, in Genesis, Chronicles, and Ezekiel they translate it as Javan. Because Javan is used first, being in Genesis, and it is a son of Japheth, I believe that's the most accurate way to view that term. Can the Javanites be Greek? Yes. I said as much. But they also might not be, as maps that show where historians believe Javanites settled is in West Turkey.
But either can be wrong as well.
So I say, Javan, because that is in agreement with Genesis, and is closer to Ja-wan which is the Hebrew term being translated.

I addressed this. You are wrong about that. Did you ignore what I said about this?

Doesn't work. Because Gabriel specifically says, that "for at the time of the end shall be the vision."
This specific vision, that he is talking about the one Daniel saw about the Ram and the Goat, is going to take place at the time of the end.
That is explicit. You can't dance around it, the way of phrasing this clause of the verse is "the vision will be at the time of the end"

No, it indicates that it will happen at the appointed time. You are misinterpreting the text. It's very obvious that it's talking about the ancient Medo Persian and Greek empires. Why deny something so obvious? I don't get it. We should be celebrating how the Bible accurately prophesied about those empires while being in awe of God's foreknowledge and here you are denying that it has anything to do with that.

"It's obvious" is horrible rationale applied to scripture.
Because what you're doing, is taking the text partially, looking at something that "kinda seems like this might have been it" and then assuming that's it, and handwaving any discrepancies.
God doesn't make discrepancies

The text outright says, this vision will happen at the time of the end
Gabriel also says that this is what will happen at the last end of the indignation.
Greece taking over Persia was not the indignation of God. There's a procession of different empires in the world, but only Babylon was destroyed specifically as vengeance for destroying Jerusalem, using the Persians. The Persians began the decree to rebuild Jerusalem and the Temple..

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Okay, the term used in the Hebrew that is translated to "Grecia" or "Greece" is יָוָ֑ן or "ja-wan", it is used in more places in the bible than Daniel 8. In Daniel and Zechariah they translate that term to Greece, in Genesis, Chronicles, and Ezekiel they translate it as Javan. Because Javan is used first, being in Genesis, and it is a son of Japheth, I believe that's the most accurate way to view that term. Can the Javanites be Greek? Yes. I said as much. But they also might not be, as maps that show where historians believe Javanites settled is in West Turkey.
But either can be wrong as well.
So I say, Javan, because that is in agreement with Genesis, and is closer to Ja-wan which is the Hebrew term being translated.

Daniel 8:20 The ram which thou sawest having two horns are the kings of Media and Persia. 21 And the rough goat is the king of Grecia: and the great horn that is between his eyes is the first king.

So, it's just a coincidence that a term translated as "Grecia" or "Greece" follows a reference to "the kings of Media and Persia"? We know that the Greek empire came into power after defeating the Medo-Persian empire, but somehow that isn't what Daniel 8:20-21 is referring to? I can't buy that at all. Even if you were correct about it referring to Javan instead (which you are not), how do you explain verse 20? How can that be anything besides a reference to the Medo-Persian empire?

Doesn't work. Because Gabriel specifically says, that "for at the time of the end shall be the vision."

And 2 verses later it says "for at the time appointed the end shall be." which explains what that means. But, you don't seem to want to take that into consideration. It's not talking about it happening at the end of time, it's talking about it happening at the appointed time.

This specific vision, that he is talking about the one Daniel saw about the Ram and the Goat, is going to take place at the time of the end.

Nope.

That is explicit.

No, it isn't. You are not using verse 19 to see the context of what that means. It's not talking about the end of time as if it's only talking about things that happen just before the literal end of time.

You can't dance around it, the way of phrasing this clause of the verse is "the vision will be at the time of the end"

I'm not dancing around anything, I'm taking history into account and I'm taking the context into account. You are interpreting the verse without taking either of those things into account.

"It's obvious" is horrible rationale applied to scripture.

No, it isn't. So, it's just somehow a coincidence that it references the nations of two successive historical world empires in Daniel 8:20-21 while not actually referring to those empires? Come on. Please be serious.

Because what you're doing, is taking the text partially, looking at something that "kinda seems like this might have been it" and then assuming that's it, and handwaving any discrepancies.

LOL. It's not "kinda"! Are you kidding? It references kings of Media and Persia and Greece specifically. Any objective person who has a knowledge of history will immediate think of the Medo-Persian and Greek empires when reading that.

The text outright says, this vision will happen at the time of the end
Gabriel also says that this is what will happen at the last end of the indignation.

It outright says "for at the time appointed the end shall be." which shows it's talking about the end in relation to that prophecy, not to the literal end of time.

Greece taking over Persia was not the indignation of God. There's a procession of different empires in the world, but only Babylon was destroyed specifically as vengeance for destroying Jerusalem, using the Persians. The Persians began the decree to rebuild Jerusalem and the Temple..

There is more mentioned in Daniel 8 than just Persia and Greece, so it's not necessarily referring to Persia and Greece when referring to the indignation of God.