I am your healer

[Guojing]

That's far past the greeting of that letter, which is to the church at Rome which by your use of James greeting would restrict that portion of his letter to the gentiles in the church of Rome, a group which I presume you do not belong.

I already stated

but of course Paul was also writing to Israel in some of those passages, as well as writing to the Body of Christ in transition so one should learn to also rightly divide them. If you need examples of that, feel free to ask.

 

[Fervent]

I already stated

That's irrelevant, because as I said Romans is addressed "to all in Rome" so if the original audience is meant to restrict the letter then Paul's letter to the Romans only concerns those in Rome. Are you in Rome?

 

[Guojing]

That's irrelevant, because as I said Romans is addressed "to all in Rome" so if the original audience is meant to restrict the letter then Paul's letter to the Romans only concerns those in Rome. Are you in Rome?

If you think that is irrelevant, we can agree to disagree.

You asked which books are written to us and about us, I have given you the answer. You are of course free to disagree.

 

[Fervent]

If you think that is irrelevant, we can agree to disagree.

You asked which books are written to us and about us, I have given you the answer. You are of course free to disagree.

You've given an inconsistent standard that conveniently allows you to ignore books that disagree with your doctrine. That Paul wrote to both Jews and gentiles is not material to the question of whether we should restrict books based on their greetings to only those who are addressed.

 

[Guojing]

You've given an inconsistent standard that conveniently allows you to ignore books that disagree with your doctrine. That Paul wrote to both Jews and gentiles is not material to the question of whether we should restrict books based on their greetings to only those who are addressed.

I don't ignore books, all scripture is written FOR us but not all are written TO us or ABOUT us.

You also ignore Jesus's command in Luke 12:33 so you are also practicing that, so get off your high horse.

 

[Fervent]

I don't ignore books, all scripture is written FOR us but not all are written TO us or ABOUT us.

You also ignore Jesus's command in Luke 12:33 so you are also practicing that, so get off your high horse.

I'm not dismissing books based on their greeting, nor do I "ignore Jesus's command in Luke 12:33" nor would doing so be comparable to what you are doing since Luke is a different type of literature than the epistles so it would not even be possible to make the same error. Unless, of course, I tried to dismiss the entirety of Luke because my name is not Theophilus.

 

[Guojing]

I'm not dismissing books based on their greeting, nor do I "ignore Jesus's command in Luke 12:33" nor would doing so be comparable to what you are doing since Luke is a different type of literature than the epistles so it would not even be possible to make the same error. Unless, of course, I tried to dismiss the entirety of Luke because my name is not Theophilus.

My point about Luke 12:33, which no one who is still participating in Internet discussions can be following, is that you are also dividing the word of truth, no matter what you say.

 

[Fervent]

My point about Luke 12:33, which no one who is still participating in Internet discussions can be following, is that you are also dividing the word of truth, no matter what you say.

Reading texts according to the type of literature they are is not the same thing as "dividing the word of truth," since I in no way believe that the words are irrelevant to the practice of my faith. But as Luke is a narrative text things must be understood in terms of the narrative. So your attempt to accuse me of engaging in the same mistake you engage in is false.

 

[swordsman1]

I didn't meant to be word of faith like, but the promises of healing are there, the same with gifts maybe we are doing something wrong we don't see more of both, the passage i quoted is clear, it says "if someone is sick, bring the elders, and pray for the person, and the person will heal" is not talking about spiritual healing there i don't think.

The promise in James 5:15 doesn't say when or how God will raise the sick person up.

Perhaps it will be immediate. Perhaps it will take days/months following the course of natural bodily healing. Perhaps the healing will only occur once they are in glory.

The healing may also be spiritual rather than physical. Notice that v15 doesn't say God will "heal" the sick person, but rather "save" (sózó) the sick person and he will be "raised up". However the word "heal" (iaomai) is used in the next verse, v16 "Therefore, confess your sins to one another and pray for one another, that you may be healed", but notice it says "may" be healed, not "will" be healed. Notice also that both v15 and v16 both refer to sins being forgiven, so James clearly has in mind sickness that may be the result of sin. The prayers of the elders and confession of the sin will restore the person to God, and physical healing may then follow as a result.

If James 5:15 is an unconditional promise of supernatural healing as a result of praying in faith then it presents 2 problems….

Firstly it contradicts scripture, which shows us that God does not always answer prayers the way we want, regardless of our faith. Instead prayers for healing may be denied because:

• It is simply not His will (for whatever reason):
  1 John 5:14 "if we ask anything according to his will he hears us"
• He allows suffering in order to make a person dependent on God. Nobody can accuse Paul of lacking faith, yet he prayed numerous times for his "thorn in the flesh" to be removed but his prayers were denied. Instead, in faith, Paul accepted God’s reply "My grace is sufficient for you" (2 Corinthians 12:7-9)
• Jesus himself prayed for his cup of suffering to be removed. But crucially he added "yet not my will, but yours be done." And of course his suffering was not removed….for our sake. (Luke 22:42)
• God allows suffering in order to produce perseverance:
  James 1:2 "Consider it pure joy whenever you face trials of many kinds, because you know that the testing of your faith produces perseverance"
  Rom 5:3 "we also glory in our sufferings, because we know that suffering produces perseverance"
• God is testing us:
  1 Peter 4:12 "do not be surprised at the fiery ordeal among you, which comes upon you for your testing"
• God allows suffering to make us obedient to his word:
  Psalm 119:67-75 - "Before I was afflicted I went astray, but now I obey your word...It was good for me to be afflicted so that I might learn your decrees...I know, O LORD, that your laws are righteous, and in faithfulness you have afflicted me."
• The suffering may be the result of unconfessed sin. (John 5:14, 1 Peter 3:7, 1 Corinthians 11:29-30). But not all sickness is the result of sin. Nor does sin always result in sickness.

Secondly it contradicts what we experience. In every church mature and faithful elders regularly pray for sick people and yet the vast majority are not supernaturally healed. It is certainly not due to their lack of faith in God's ability to heal. In fact the amount of faith is irrelevant - Jesus said that faith as small as a mustard seed is sufficient for God to perform a miracle should he so wish. I'm willing to bet you yourself have prayed for people to be healed and it hasn't happened supernaturally. Supernatural healing is clearly rare. Natural healing over time is common and can certainly be expedited by divine intervention as a result of prayer. So we should indeed pray for the sick. But experience shows us that often people are not healed at all, and they sometimes even die from their illness, despite the fervent prayers of many faithful Christians....even in charismatic churches that adhere to erroneous Word of Faith theology.

So either God is regularly breaking his promises, or that particular interpretation of James 15:5 is wrong.

 

[swordsman1]

Do not let anyone talk you out of your faith in God and His promises.
E.W. Kenyon said he never tried to talk someone into believing. You let the word believe it for you. The scripture says God is faithful, and our faith springs from that. Just find what the word says, and agree in your heart.
Yes, "He heals all my diseases..."
Yes, "By His stripes we WERE healed..."
Yes, "The prayer of faith will raise him up..."
Yes, "I will be prosperous and in health even as my soul prospers..."
Dozens more. You see, I am not "trying" to believe... these words are true regardless of what I think or do. I just stand on them and say, "Yes... I am well able to take the land."

E.W. Kenyon is the father of the heretical Word of Faith movement. From him followed a long line of WOF false teachers - Kenneth Hagin, Benny Hinn, Kenneth Copeland, etc, etc.

Is the Word of Faith movement biblical? | GotQuestions.org

None of those quotes are promises of physical healing or prosperity.

 

[SavedByGrace3]

E.W. Kenyon is the father of the heretical Word of Faith movement. From him followed a long line of WOF false teachers - Kenneth Hagin, Benny Hinn, Kenneth Copeland, etc, etc.

Is the Word of Faith movement biblical? | GotQuestions.org

None of those quotes are promises of physical healing or prosperity.

I understand you dislike some WoF teachers. But I think detractors go too far when they deny the Word of God because they do not like what someone may have said or done. The Word of God is still true, and it is not a matter of trying to believe something. We do not have a choice. It says what it says.

Hebrews 11:6 KJV
6. But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

1 Peter 5:6-7 KJV
6. Humble yourselves therefore under the mighty hand of God, that he may exalt you in due time:
7. Casting all your care upon him; for he careth for you.

 

[Bobber]

The promise in James 5:15 doesn't say when or how God will raise the sick person up.

So are you suggesting people who are believing healing if ours from the Lord to receive that means as soon as you pray for them it's a guarantee you'll have the manifestation? If so you're wrong. What's taught is that you believe you receive when you pray but the manifestation may not come instantly. Read James 1 on the prayer of faith....it tells one what asking in faith IS. There may be a time where you have to stand believing you've received where you don't doubt or waver.

The healing may also be spiritual rather than physical. Notice that v15 doesn't say God will "heal" the sick person, but rather "save" (sózó) the sick person and he will be "raised up".

Nice try. But in the gospels the Greek word (sozo) is used when it comes to physical healing as well.

sózó: to save
Original Word: σῴζω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: sózó
Phonetic Spelling: (sode'-zo)
Definition: to save
Usage: I save, heal, preserve, rescue.

And one can bring up other verses in the gospels which clearly are talking about physical healing in the usage of sozo. One example Mk 10:52 man healed of blindness. Plus other scriptures too.

 

[Bobber]

I understand you dislike some WoF teachers. But I think detractors go too far when they deny the Word of God because they do not like what someone may have said or done.

And they're going off topic too by trying to look for faults in human personalities of our current day or in days gone by.....the question is what does the Bible teach about healing .

 

[YorkieGal]

I don't think that being a Christian shields anyone from physical harm or sickness. I stay away from doctors and medicine because both are poison and not because I think that being a Christian makes me invincible from physical death. This is an interesting thread!

 

[Bobber]

I don't think that being a Christian shields anyone from physical harm or sickness. I stay away from doctors and medicine because both are poison and not because I think that being a Christian makes me invincible from physical death. This is an interesting thread!

The Bible doesn't teach we will live forever on this earth but it says and gives promise that we can live along life. Eph 6:2 Of course that raises many questions but that's what the Bible teaches.

 

[Bobber]

I do not think its any universal promise of God. Many good Christians are sick and die of various injuries or sickness and their faith is strong.

But what is strong faith in your books when it comes to healing? Is it merely one believes God is able to do something? Believing God is able to do something is not the same as believing you receive when you pray. Mark 11:24

 

[YorkieGal]

Thanks, can you repost the verse? When I click it, it shows Honour thy father and mother; (which is the first commandment with promise

The Bible doesn't teach we will live forever on this earth but it says and gives promise that we can live along life. Eph 6:2 Of course that raises many questions but that's what the Bible teaches.

 

[YorkieGal]

Thanks, can you repost the verse? When I click it, it shows Honour thy father and mother; (which is the first commandment with promise

Sorry, I can see further down on verse 3 the reference to long life, thanks!

 

[Bobber]

It's good to pray - but pray for faith to trust God whatever happens.

Always good to trust God I'd never say anything contrary to that. But you're perhaps failing to appreciate what Jesus taught about the prayer of faith. It's praying and believing your receiving from God regardless of outward appearances. Mk 11:24

And yet there are born again, Spirit filled Christians who pray for physical healing and do not receive it.

OK. Then that's the time where each on of us individually go to God and seek wisdom in regard to why? He said if any man lacks wisdom God will give it Jm 1. Of course we live in a time though when people say a prayer....doesn't happen....and they default to a position well must not have been the will of God.

Never was that way in the gospels. They would pray for ones they wouldn't get healed and they'd go to Jesus secretly later and ask him why? He'd tell them. He'd tell them in though they thought they were operating in faith and doing things right he'd tell them basically NOPE. Go back to the drawing board and get things right. Read Mark 9:28

 

[trophy33]

But what is strong faith in your books when it comes to healing? Is it merely one believes God is able to do something? Believing God is able to do something is not the same as believing you receive when you pray. Mark 11:24

I have seen both kinds of faith.