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Annihilation=No Wrath

BurningBush84

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What is the context of Isaiah 55:8?

Lets read it.

Isaiah 55:7-8
7 “Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.
8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD”

Is verse 7 talking about ECT?

No. the context (verse 7) is talking about the wicked and how they are to forsake their ways, and the unrighteous man his thoughts. So it’s talking about sinful men and how they are to forsake their thoughts and its not talking about ECT.

Out of context? You quote old testament passages to interpret Revelation 14:11. I never said Isaiah 55 is talking about ECT. Do you believe what Isaiah 55:8-9 states ???
 
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Out of context? You quote old testament passages to interpret Revelation 14:11. I never said Isaiah 55 is talking about ECT.
How many times did Jesus quote from the Old Testament? How many New Testament verses connect in with the Old Testament?
Do you believe what Isaiah 55:8-9 states ???
Yes, the context is wicked people and not ECT.
 
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BurningBush84

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How many times did Jesus quote from the Old Testament? How many New Testament verses connect in with the Old Testament?

Yes, the context is wicked people and not ECT.

God says your ways are not his ways. You say ECT isn't fair. Well your not God, your human. ECT shows just how severe it is to reject Jesus. That kind of severity shows just how great Jesus sacrifice was. But you say Jesus sacrifice is not worthy of that type of severity. Your therefore diminishing the greatness of Jesus. A temporary punishment that will never be remembered serves no purpose. Jesus remembers being punished for our sins. The Annihilated remember nothing. Jesus was not a sinful human being that was unjustly crucified.
Luke 12:48 shows that people who don't know Jesus will be punished. Is that fair ? Not according to you. But what you think is fair doesn't matter. What matters is the truth.

Matthew 25:46 proves it's eternal punishment. Using your own reasoning then , you'd have to say there is no eternal life.
 
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God says your ways are not his ways.
And again, your not listening. The context of Isaiah 55:8-9 is not in reference to Eternal Torment, but it is in reference to the wicked (See again Isaiah 55:7). Let the unbiased reader note your ignorance of the context.

You say ECT isn't fair.
Both the Bible and knowing basic morality and fair justice say ECT is not fair.
Luke 12:47-48 talks about the fair justice of God. The one who knew His will and did it not was beaten with many stripes. The one who did not know His will and did things worthy of stripes was beaten with few stripes. Fair justice. God is not giving them equal punishment by eternal torment in the Lake of Fire in this passage. In fact, if Eternal Torment was true, there would be more clearer indications of it in Scripture. We would see God tormenting in fire the wicked alive upon the Earth for the rest of their lives, but we do not read about that in Scripture. Why didn’t Jesus suffer in hell for eternity? Did Jesus not take our punishment in our place? This is where your belief in ECT starts to crumble. Jesus really cannot pay the price for your punishment if your punishment was supposed to be ECT if you decided not to believe and follow Him.


Well your not God, your human.
Right, the same can be said of you.


ECT shows just how severe it is to reject Jesus.
There is no such thing as ECT in the Bible. That would be like twistng the word “forever” (words “for ever” - KJB) in Philemeon 1:15 to be literal when its not. Meaning, do you believe that if Onesimus were to have returned back to his master Philemon, that he would have received him forever in an eternal sense? Meaning, do you believe both Philemon and Onesimus are immortals living upon the Earth? Or do you believe that if Onesimus returned back to Philemon that he would have entered some kind of repeat timeloop like in Groundhog day whereby the day would repeat itself whereby Onesimus would be received by Philemon over and over and over and over again? You must if you believe the word “forever” means for all eternity in Philemon 1:15.

That kind of severity shows just how great Jesus sacrifice was.
No. It just shows that God is not fair in His justice because you and every other ECT Christian on the planet has never in the history of ECT been able to explain the fair justice of ECT. If nobody can explain how it is good, then it’s not good. Simple logic. But you are just blindly reading the words on the page with no heart involved.


But you say Jesus sacrifice is not worthy of that type of severity.
Actually it would not really be me alone. A real world example that Jesus would accept would show that this is so. Or do you think Jesus rejected the real world (parable) example of the Canaanite woman when she talked about the dogs eating the crumbs from the table?


Your therefore diminishing the greatness of Jesus.
Only in your own ECT mindset that is not biblical or moral.
You are simply not rightly dividing and understanding that certain words are archaic in the KJB.


A temporary punishment that will never be remembered serves no purpose. Jesus remembers being punished for our sins. The Annihilated remember nothing.
This sounds like your thoughts. Chapter and verse please.


Jesus was not a sinful human being that was unjustly crucified.
I believe Jesus was sinless so there is no point to claim that I believe otherwise unless you want to falsely misrespresent what I believe.

Luke 12:48 shows that people who don't know Jesus will be punished. Is that fair ? Not according to you. But what you think is fair doesn't matter. What matters is the truth.
Wow. So you are reading ECT into Luke 12:48? Please show me the exact words in Luke 12:48 or even in Luke 12 that talks about the punishment there as being in reference to torture in fire for all eternity? If you cannot show me, then you are inserting your own thoughts of ECT into the text.


Matthew 25:46 proves it's eternal punishment. Using your own reasoning then , you'd have to say there is no eternal life.
Are the ”everlasting mountains” scattered or shattered in Habakkuk 3:6? How can the mountains be everlasting if they are destroyed?
 
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And again, your not listening. The context of Isaiah 55:8-9 is not in reference to Eternal Torment, but it is in reference to the wicked (See again Isaiah 55:7). Let the unbiased reader note your ignorance of the context.
Both the Bible and knowing basic morality and fair justice say ECT is not fair.
Luke 12:47-48 talks about the fair justice of God. The one who knew His will and did it not was beaten with many stripes. The one who did not know His will and did things worthy of stripes was beaten with few stripes. Fair justice. God is not giving them equal punishment by eternal torment in the Lake of Fire in this passage. In fact, if Eternal Torment was true, there would be more clearer indications of it in Scripture. We would see God tormenting in fire the wicked alive upon the Earth for the rest of their lives, but we do not read about that in Scripture. Why didn’t Jesus suffer in hell for eternity? Did Jesus not take our punishment in our place? This is where your belief in ECT starts to crumble. Jesus really cannot pay the price for your punishment if your punishment was supposed to be ECT if you decided not to believe and follow Him.
Right, the same can be said of you.
There is no such thing as ECT in the Bible. That would be like twistng the word “forever” (words “for ever” - KJB) in Philemeon 1:15 to be literal when its not. Meaning, do you believe that if Onesimus were to have returned back to his master Philemon, that he would have received him forever in an eternal sense? Meaning, do you believe both Philemon and Onesimus are immortals living upon the Earth? Or do you believe that if Onesimus returned back to Philemon that he would have entered some kind of repeat timeloop like in Groundhog day whereby the day would repeat itself whereby Onesimus would be received by Philemon over and over and over and over again? You must if you believe the word “forever” means for all eternity in Philemon 1:15.
No. It just shows that God is not fair in His justice because you and every other ECT Christian on the planet has never in the history of ECT been able to explain the fair justice of ECT. If nobody can explain how it is good, then it’s not good. Simple logic. But you are just blindly reading the words on the page with no heart involved.
Actually it would not really be me alone. A real world example that Jesus would accept would show that this is so. Or do you think Jesus rejected the real world (parable) example of the Canaanite woman when she talked about the dogs eating the crumbs from the table?
Only in your own ECT mindset that is not biblical or moral.
You are simply not rightly dividing and understanding that certain words are archaic in the KJB.
This sounds like your thoughts. Chapter and verse please.
I believe Jesus was sinless so there is no point to claim that I believe otherwise unless you want to falsely misrespresent what I believe.
Wow. So you are reading ECT into Luke 12:48? Please show me the exact words in Luke 12:48 or even in Luke 12 that talks about the punishment there as being in reference to torture in fire for all eternity? If you cannot show me, then you are inserting your own thoughts of ECT into the text.
Are the ”everlasting mountains” scattered or shattered in Habakkuk 3:6? How can the mountains be everlasting if they are destroyed?
How can mountains be everlasting? If God decides something is eternal I think He can make it so. You do know that words are sometimes used figuratively in the Bible don't you? For example, Herod was not literally a fox when Jesus called him that. Simon was not literally a stone when Jesus named him "Petros" which means stone. James and John were not literally sons of thunder when Jesus called them that. Peter was not literally the devil when Jesus called him Satan.
Also a few figurative uses of a word does NOT change the inherent meaning. Here are a few OT vss. where the Hebrew word "olam" is defined/described as eternal. And I have 60 more OT vss. like these.

<1>Ecc 3:14 I know that, whatsoever God doeth, it shall be for ever; nothing can be added to it, nor any thing taken from it; and God hath so made it, that men should fear before Him.
<2>Psalms 148:6
(6) He hath also established them for ever and ever; He hath made a decree which shall not be transgressed
<3>Jeremiah 51:39
(39) In their heat I will make their feasts, and I will make them drunken, that they may rejoice, and sleep a perpetual [olam] sleep, and not wake, saith the LORD.
<4>Jeremiah 50:5
(5) They shall ask the way to Zion with their faces thitherward, saying, Come, and let us join ourselves to the LORD in a perpetual [olam] covenant that shall not be forgotten.
<5>Jeremiah 23:40
(40) And I will bring an everlasting [olam] reproach upon you, and a perpetual shame, which shall not be forgotten.
<6>Isaiah 56:5
(5) Even unto them will I give in My house and within My walls a monument and a memorial better than sons and daughters; I will give them an everlasting [olam] memorial, that shall not be cut off.
<7>Isaiah 55:13
(13) Instead of the thorn shall come up the cypress, and instead of the brier shall come up the myrtle; and it shall be to the LORD for a memorial, for an everlasting [olam] sign that shall not be cut off.
<8>Isaiah 51:6
(6) Lift up your eyes to the heavens, and look upon the earth beneath; for the heavens shall vanish away like smoke, and the earth shall wax old like a garment, and they that dwell therein shall die in like manner; but My salvation shall be for ever,[olam] and My favour shall not be abolished.
 
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BurningBush84

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And again, your not listening. The context of Isaiah 55:8-9 is not in reference to Eternal Torment, but it is in reference to the wicked (See again Isaiah 55:7). Let the unbiased reader note your ignorance of the context.


Both the Bible and knowing basic morality and fair justice say ECT is not fair.
Luke 12:47-48 talks about the fair justice of God. The one who knew His will and did it not was beaten with many stripes. The one who did not know His will and did things worthy of stripes was beaten with few stripes. Fair justice. God is not giving them equal punishment by eternal torment in the Lake of Fire in this passage. In fact, if Eternal Torment was true, there would be more clearer indications of it in Scripture. We would see God tormenting in fire the wicked alive upon the Earth for the rest of their lives, but we do not read about that in Scripture. Why didn’t Jesus suffer in hell for eternity? Did Jesus not take our punishment in our place? This is where your belief in ECT starts to crumble. Jesus really cannot pay the price for your punishment if your punishment was supposed to be ECT if you decided not to believe and follow Him.



Right, the same can be said of you.



There is no such thing as ECT in the Bible. That would be like twistng the word “forever” (words “for ever” - KJB) in Philemeon 1:15 to be literal when its not. Meaning, do you believe that if Onesimus were to have returned back to his master Philemon, that he would have received him forever in an eternal sense? Meaning, do you believe both Philemon and Onesimus are immortals living upon the Earth? Or do you believe that if Onesimus returned back to Philemon that he would have entered some kind of repeat timeloop like in Groundhog day whereby the day would repeat itself whereby Onesimus would be received by Philemon over and over and over and over again? You must if you believe the word “forever” means for all eternity in Philemon 1:15.


No. It just shows that God is not fair in His justice because you and every other ECT Christian on the planet has never in the history of ECT been able to explain the fair justice of ECT. If nobody can explain how it is good, then it’s not good. Simple logic. But you are just blindly reading the words on the page with no heart involved.



Actually it would not really be me alone. A real world example that Jesus would accept would show that this is so. Or do you think Jesus rejected the real world (parable) example of the Canaanite woman when she talked about the dogs eating the crumbs from the table?



Only in your own ECT mindset that is not biblical or moral.
You are simply not rightly dividing and understanding that certain words are archaic in the KJB.



This sounds like your thoughts. Chapter and verse please.



I believe Jesus was sinless so there is no point to claim that I believe otherwise unless you want to falsely misrespresent what I believe.


Wow. So you are reading ECT into Luke 12:48? Please show me the exact words in Luke 12:48 or even in Luke 12 that talks about the punishment there as being in reference to torture in fire for all eternity? If you cannot show me, then you are inserting your own thoughts of ECT into the text.



Are the ”everlasting mountains” scattered or shattered in Habakkuk 3:6? How can the mountains be everlasting if they are destroyed?

Using your own reasoning, there is no eternal life. When I quote Isaiah 55:8-9 Im saying what it states . That God's ways are not necessarily our ways. Thats what it says. But you say no. You say God's way has to be the same as your ways.

Luke 12:48 states that people who did not know Jesus will still be punished. Different levels of punishment but punishment nonetheless. Matthew 25:46 proves it's eternal. If it doesn't then there is no eternal life.

Was Jesus annihilated??? No. So I guess his punishment wasn't enough to save us since he didn't get annihilated? ECT is all over the Bible . Matthew 18:8, Matthew 25, Revelation 14:11 , Revelation 20:10, Luke 16:26. The word annihilate is not in the Bible . Destroy and Annihilate are not the exact same thing .
 
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Using your own reasoning, there is no eternal life.
Actually, I would say that this is the case in your belief in ECT.

Eternal life is not really eternal life because even the wicked will have eternal life, too (in the fact that they will live eternally in being tormented for all eternity).

So when Jesus said, “And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish,” (John 10:28), it does not really mean anything special or significant because everyone will have eternal life.

But play close attention. Jesus said, they shall never perish. To perish means to be destroyed or gone. You know if Rick said to Bob that his house perished in the fire, it means it is gone, right?

When I quote Isaiah 55:8-9 Im saying what it states . That God's ways are not necessarily our ways. Thats what it says. But you say no. You say God's way has to be the same as your ways.
Why do you keep ignoring verse 7?

Good Bereans don’t read verses or passages in the vacuum of outerspace.
The context (verse 7) is the wicked, which means the wicked needs to forsake their wicked thoughts and ways.
It’s not talking about believers who strive to live righteously and do good by the Lord.

Luke 12:48 states that people who did not know Jesus will still be punished. Different levels of punishment but punishment nonetheless.
No. It says they did not know and yet they did things worthy of stripes and they were beaten with few stripes.
Those who knew His will and did it not, were beaten with many stripes. Why? Because this shows that the concept of degrees of punishment based on a person’s crimes. One is being beaten with many stripes because they knew God’s will and did it not. The degree of punishment is more severe because their crime was more severe.

The concept being taught in Luke 12:47-48 is fair justice, and not unfair justice in that God is going to punish people for all eternity for a finite amount of sins or crimes committed.

Matthew 25:46 proves it's eternal. If it doesn't then there is no eternal life.
It is the same concept of “eternal inheritance” mentioned in the Bible (See Hebrews 9:15). Do you believe that you will keep receiving your inheritance every day througout all eternity or do you think you will receive your inheritance one-time and it will have eternal consequences?

In other words, Matthew 25:46 is saying that the punishment is a one-time punishment that has everlasting consequences.
2 Thessalonians 1:9 defines this “everlasting punishment” in Matthew 25:46 as…. “everlasting destruction.” So the punishment is destruction. When you think about destruction and what that word means… it means that something is destroyed whereby it is no more.

The Wicked Shall Be No More:
Psalms 37:9-11 For evildoers shall be cut off: but those that wait on the LORD, they shall inherit the earth. For yet a little while, and the wicked shall not be: yes, you shall diligently consider his place, and it shall not be. But the meek shall inherit the earth; and shall delight themselves in the abundance of peace.​

Was Jesus annihilated??? No. So I guess his punishment wasn't enough to save us since he didn't get annihilated?
Jesus died, and that is the form of the punishment was done in our place.
The wicked faces the second death (Revelation 21:8), and not eternal torment in fire for all eternity.
So dying is the punishment. Jesus died in our place.
The wicked will one day die again a second time (just like the first death).
Jesus said fear not the one who can kill the body but fear the one who can destroy both body and soul in Gehenna.
So Jesus can and will destroy the soul. it will be no more just as he destroys the body (See Matthew 10:28).

You take death to be metaphorical in regards to the Second Death.
I believe it is literal because the “first death” is literal.
This is why your belief in ECT does not add up.

ECT is all over the Bible .
There are only five to six major verses that appear to teach ECT.
So no. It’s not all over the Bible.

Matthew 18:8,
Again, do you believe the “everlasting mountains” are still everlasting if they have been scattered or shattered?
Also, 1 Corinthians 15:26 says the last enemy to be destroyed is death.
This assumes that there are other enemies of God that are destroyed before death is destroyed.
Also, Revelation 21 says there is no more death, sorrow, pain, etcetera. So how can you have sorrow, and pain going on when the Scriptures say the former things (like these) have passed away?

Plus, Isaiah 66 says,

22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make,​
shall remain before me, saith the Lord,​
so shall your seed and your name remain.​
23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another,​
and from one sabbath to another,​
shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the Lord.​
24 And they shall go forth, and look​
upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me:​
for their worm shall not die,​
neither shall their fire be quenched;​
and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.​

Okay. Let's go over this passage in more detail. So Isaiah says that “they (referring to the ‘all flesh’ mentioned in Isaiah 66:23) shall go forth, and look upon the CARCASES (not ‘immortal living souls’) of the men that have transgressed against me: for their WORM (the maggot that feeds on those ‘carcases’) shall not die, neither shall their fire (the fire that burns up those ‘carcases’) be quenched: and they (the people that have transgressed against God) shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.”

So the fire can be eternal or everlasting and not be quenched but that does not mean that what is inside the fire is not destroyed.
We clearly see that they are carcases.

Webster’s 1913 Dictionary:

Carcass

1. n. A dead body, whether of man or beast; a corpse;​

If we are to believe words in our own dictionary, we must believe that when Isaiah 66:24 talks about carcases, he is simply referring to dead bodies or corpses, and not immortal souls.

Matthew 25, Revelation 14:11 , Revelation 20:10,
These verses are explained in my thread here:


Luke 16:26.
This is talking about the place of Hades (Hell) and not the Lake of Fire.
Death and hell (Hades) will be cast into the Lake of Fire.
But death will be destroyed according to 1 Corinthians 15:26 and so the Lake of Fire is indeed a place of death.
It is called the Second Death and not torture in fire for all eternity.

The word annihilate is not in the Bible .
But “destroy,” “death,” “destruction,” and “shall not be” is.

Destroy and Annihilate are not the exact same thing .
This is not true.

According to the 1828 Websters Dictionary at KingJamesBibleDictionary it defines destroy as annihilate.

 
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BurningBush84

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No. The wicked will be punished in hell and most likely even further for their sins in the Lake of Fire. But the punishment will be no more and no less than what they deserve. Luke 12:47-48 describes the fair justice of God.

Also, I heard ECT Christians tell me that the reason why the wicked are being punished for all eternity is because they are sinning against God eternally. But that makes no sense. They do not have a time machine to sin against God. There is also NO verse in Scripture that even suggests this, either. So it is completely made up to defend ECT. Also, only five major verses sound like ECT at first glance, but they can be easily explained with Scripture. The goodness of God is on trial here. But many just fail the test. They can never explain using a real-world example of how it is good and fair for God to torture wicked people for all eternity with flames for a finite amount of crimes committed here on this Earth.

I mean, stop and think. Do you think the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah was just?
They were destroyed by fire from Heaven.
Did God keep them alive and torture them in those flames until this very day for all to see as an example?
No. The example of Sodom and Gomorrah was destruction.

Jude 1:7
"Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire."

An example is something you can witness and see, right?
You do realize you can visit this place and see its destruction today.
Many Christians have visited the site of Sodom and Gomorrah.
They witnessed the destruction of these two cities.
That is the example written about in Jude 1:7.

You said destruction always means annihilation. How can you visit Sodom and Gomorrah today if it doesn't exist ??? You just proved my point that destruction and annihilation are not the exact same thing. If it were, than Ron Wyatt would have never found Sodom and Gomorrah . I agree Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed but the ruins still EXIST today .
 
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Eternal life is not really eternal life because even the wicked will have eternal life, too (in the fact that they will live eternally in being tormented for eternity).
The rich man in Luke 16 was dead but he had some kind of conscious awareness, could see, speak, feel pain, had a tongue and could not leave the place where he was.
So when Jesus said, “And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish,” (John 10:28), it does not really mean anything special or significant because everyone will have eternal life.
See previous reply, above.
In other words, Matthew 25:46 is saying that the punishment is a one-time punishment that has everlasting consequences.
Jesus is quoted as saying death 18 times. When Jesus meant death He said death NOT punishment. Why would Jesus tell fellow Jews that death was eternal they already knew that.
Psalms 37:9-11 For evildoers shall be cut off: but those that wait on the LORD, they shall inherit the earth. For yet a little while, and the wicked shall not be: yes, you shall diligently consider his place, and it shall not be. But the meek shall inherit the earth; and shall delight themselves in the abundance of peace.
This psalm is often quoted out of context, as here. This psalm does NOT refer to the eternal fate of the wicked but what happens to Israel's enemies here in this life.
Psalms 37:1-2
(1) A Psalm of David. Fret not thyself because of evildoers, neither be thou envious against the workers of iniquity.
(2) For they shall soon be cut down like the grass, and wither as the green herb.
Psalms 37:9
(9) For evildoers shall be cut off: [like grass vs. 2] but those that wait upon the LORD, they shall inherit the earth.
Psalms 37:14-15
(14) The wicked have drawn out the sword, and have bent their bow, to cast down the poor and needy, and to slay such as be of upright conversation.
(15) Their sword shall enter into their own heart, and their bows shall be broken.​

This is talking about the place of Hades (Hell) and not the Lake of Fire.
Death and hell (Hades) will be cast into the Lake of Fire.
But death will be destroyed according to 1 Corinthians 15:26 and so the Lake of Fire is indeed a place of death.
It is called the Second Death and not torture in fire for all eternity.
Death is the point in time end of life. It has no physical presence and cannot be literally thrown anywhere. "Hades" can refer to the grave which will be empty. Empty cannot be thrown anywhere but there is a scriptural answer.
Revelation 6:8
(8) And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.​
These two sentient beings, whom I call the angel of death and the demon of hell. can be thrown into the LOF and their power to kill ended.
 
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You said destruction always means annihilation. How can you visit Sodom and Gomorrah today if it doesn't exist ??? You just proved my point that destruction and annihilation are not the exact same thing. If it were, than Ron Wyatt would have never found Sodom and Gomorrah . I agree Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed but the ruins still EXIST today .
Annihilate:
(Websters 1913 Dictionary):

To destroy the form or peculiar disnctive properties of, so that the specific thing no longer exists; as, to annihilate a forest by cutting down the trees.​

Source:

But the tree stumbs could obvious still be there.

The idea is that the wicked will be turned into ashes (their bodies were annihilated) and changed into ashes. That does not mean totally erasure always. We see Isaiah 66 describe how the wicked are corpses on the New Heavens and New Earth.
 
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The rich man in Luke 16 was dead but he had some kind of conscious awareness, could see, speak, feel pain, had a tongue and could not leave the place where he was.
Not really interested in debating with you. But to correct your misunderstanding on my belief. I believe hell (Hades) is a real place of torment.

Anyways, Hades does not mean that such a place is eternal. Nothing is mentioned how Hades is eternal. Hades is cast into the Lake of Fire, which is the second death along with death being thrown in there (Revelation 20:14). Death is the last enemy to be destroyed (1 Corinthians 15:26). So this is truly fitting with the Lake of Fire being called, “The Second Death” (Which is related to the First Death). Matthew 10:28 also ties in nicely with this, too. But already said all this to you but you will not receive what the Scriptures are saying on this matter. Hence, why there is no real point to continue a back and forth discussion with you on this. We have already been over this many times.
 
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Bible Highlighter

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.
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You said destruction always means annihilation. How can you visit Sodom and Gomorrah today if it doesn't exist ??? You just proved my point that destruction and annihilation are not the exact same thing. If it were, than Ron Wyatt would have never found Sodom and Gomorrah . I agree Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed but the ruins still EXIST today .
Annihilate:
(Collins Dictionary):

1. to destroy completely; put out of existence; demolish
an atomic bomb can annihilate a city​
3. to kill​
4. to conquer decisively; crush​

SIMILAR WORDS: deˈstroy

Source:

If an atomic bomb annihilates a city that does not mean that debri of those buildings would. not be laying around.
The word also means to kill. Which is what the Second Death is. Death. Jesus says fear not the one who can kill the body but fear the one who can destroy the soul and body. Meaning, Jesus can destroy the soul and He will do so in the Second Death.
 
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BurningBush84

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Not reall interested in debating with you. But to correct your misunderstanding on my belief. I believe hell (Hades) is a real place of torment. It does not mean that such a place is eternal. Nothing is mentioned how Hades is eternal. Hades is cast into the Lake of Fire, which is the second death along with death being thrown in there (Revelation 20:14). Death is the last enemy to be destroyed (1 Corinthians 15:26). So this is truly fitting with the Lake of Fire being called, “The Second Death” (Which is related to the First Death). But already said all this to you but you will not receive what the Scriptures are saying on this matter. Hence, why there is no real point to continue a back and forth discussion with you on this. We have already been over this many times.

It's odd that you think Matthew 25:46 does mean eternal when referring to the righteous, but not for the wicked. Even though eternal is mentioned TWICE in the SAME verse. You say only one of the 2 eternal's means eternal. That is so odd. Using your own reasoning, you should say eternal NEVER means eternal in Matthew 25:46.
 
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Der Alte

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Not really interested in debating with you. But to correct your misunderstanding on my belief. I believe hell (Hades) is a real place of torment. It does not mean that such a place is eternal. Nothing is mentioned how Hades is eternal. Hades is cast into the Lake of Fire, which is the second death along with death being thrown in there (Revelation 20:14). Death is the last enemy to be destroyed (1 Corinthians 15:26). So this is truly fitting with the Lake of Fire being called, “The Second Death” (Which is related to the First Death). Matthew 10:28 also ties in nicely with this, too. But already said all this to you but you will not receive what the Scriptures are saying on this matter. Hence, why there is no real point to continue a back and forth discussion with you on this. We have already been over this many times.
You are correct we have been over this many times. I already explained 'death and hell" in the LOF you saying "You're wrong and I'm right, am too. Nuh huh." does not address or refute anything I posted. While the LOF is called the second death twice, not one verse says that anything/anyone is thrown into the LOF then they/it dies. Rev 20:10 says just the opposite.
 
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BurningBush84

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It's odd that you think Matthew 25:46 does mean eternal when referring to the righteous, but not for the wicked. Even though eternal is mentioned TWICE in the SAME verse. You say only one of the 2 eternal's means eternal. That is so odd. Using your own reasoning, you should say eternal NEVER means eternal in Matthew 25:46.

Actually Luke 12:48 does say they will be punished. See the red ?

”But the one who does not know and does things deserving punishment will be beaten with few blows".

But according to you that's not fair.
 
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BurningBush84

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Why use the word eternal in Matthew 18:8 ? Why not just say fire ? Why confuse people? Most Bible believers believe in ECT. Its not just Matthew 18:8. It's a combination of passages. And when you ADD them all up you get ECT. But then you go to the old testament and change topics and start talking about mountains. Talk about taking things out of context. You cant even stay in the same chapter of book we are talking about. You start going off topic and talking about irrelevant things.

Your doing the same thing Satan did in Genesis 3:1. "Did God REALLY say that ???". Well yes he Did. Your whole argument is that the Bible doesn't mean what it says.

You telling people Revelation 14:11 doesn't mean what it says . That's what Satan does.
 
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Twin_niwT

Matt10:8 "...freely ye have received, freely give.
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Death
Evil spirits depart from your aura and are cast into realm(s) of hell.
Your soul goes to sleep in the Land of the Dead/Sheol/Hell/Gehenna/Hades (same place, different realms)
Dreams and nightmares/purification of one's soul (revolve around "Abraham's Bosom", to the darkest part of hell) Sheep go to Hell too.
Resurrection of the dead
Judgment (exposure)
Closure/life review for righteous, exposure and humiliation for wicked
Eternal life for righteous, Lake of fire (hell), annihilation for the souls of the wicked. The soul's of the wicked commit suicide in the lake of fire.
 
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Aaron112

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Annihilation seems very peaceful, the total opposite of experiencing wrath. Annihilation is basically resting in eternal peace, a peaceful soothing eternal sleep.
Good, and no. The wicked have no rest, no peace, no eternal sleep.
 
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Der Alte

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Death
Evil spirits depart from your aura and are cast into realm(s) of hell.
Your soul goes to sleep in the Land of the Dead/Sheol/Hell/Gehenna/Hades (same place, different realms)
Dreams and nightmares/purification of one's soul (revolve around "Abraham's Bosom", to the darkest part of hell) Sheep go to Hell too.
Resurrection of the dead
Judgment (exposure)
Closure/life review for righteous, exposure and humiliation for wicked
Eternal life for righteous, Lake of fire (hell), annihilation for the souls of the wicked. The soul's of the wicked commit suicide in the lake of fire.
Can you show us where any of this is in the Bible?
 
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Aaron112

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Absolutely no eternal consequences for the wicked unbeliever.
Au contrare, to coin a phrase - the wicked unbeliever will never know the joy, the peace, the blessings unending starting in this life now today and continuing ad infinitum, so to speak.
Faithful believers, and maybe some or many not so faithful, may rejoice in eternal life with immeasurable blessing, in the presence of Yahweh, Jesus, and with all those destined for eternal life.
The wicked, the liars, the unclean, the idolators - not one is in heaven nor in the life to come , according to Yahweh's Word.
 
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