Do you trust God or Man when it comes to the creation?

[Strong in Him]

In my post i never said it means a single piece of land.

Even though the original creation in Genesis was a single piece of circular land but this was broken up by God sometime after the flood.

In Genesis 10:25 The Bible does state To Eber were born two sons: the name of one was Peleg, for in his days the earth was divided; and his brother’s name was Joktan.

So this dividing up of the earth may have happened then.

You apparently can't answer my, repeated, question about the point you are making in all this, so I see no point in continuing.
I've got too much to do to worry about pointless, academic arguments.

 

[SeventhFisherofMen]

Brothers and Sisters, greetings. Today I am going to present evidence for why I think we should trust the Bible and it's creation account as literal, meaning that the Earth is just several thousand years old, just over 6,000 to be more precise. Firstly let me just say that I do not think this issue is a matter of salvation, and therefore not essential, but I fear not trusting the Bible in this regard only helps the adversary further weaken our resolve and understanding when it comes to other issues.

Ok, so science (or the world) describes the Earth as being billions of years old. Lets see what the Bible says.
Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
Gen 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
Gen 1:3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
Gen 1:4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.
Gen 1:5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

Now, scripture does tell us that a thousand years is like a day to God.
Psa 90:4 For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night.

When you consider the word "day" H3117 from the Genesis passage, it could be either literal or figurative, however looking at the words "evening" H6153 and "morning" H1242 there is much less room for interpretation and scripture seems to be pointing to an actual 24 hour day. The issue with people accepting this though, is because I would say for must of us, for our entire lives, we've been taught that the Bible is wrong, and science is right. However the creation story provides a completely contrary explanation for how we got here. Take for example that God created Earth on the first day, but made the stars on the fourth, not to mention making plants on the third!

Gen 1:14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:
Gen 1:15 And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.
Gen 1:16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.

According to science, how could God of made the earth, filled with plants, before he made the sun, moon, and stars? We must remember that God is all powerful and is not constrained by the laws of creation, as He is the one who made them. We are also told the Earth was made out of water; are we just to disregard that because science says otherwise?

2Pe 3:4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.
2Pe 3:5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
2Pe 3:6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
2Pe 3:7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
2Pe 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

Again we see that a thousand years to God is like one day, we will come back to this in a bit. Before we do, lets address wisdom, or being wise. Are we, who are sinful and wicked, wise? Or is wisdom given to us through God. Basically are we "wise" in the ways and beliefs of the world, or are we "wise" in the ways of God? To paraphrase Jesus, we are in the world, but not of the world (John 17:14-16).

Psa 19:7 The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple.
Pro 3:7 Be not wise in thine own eyes: fear the LORD, and depart from evil.
Jer 8:9 The wise men are ashamed, they are dismayed and taken: lo, they have rejected the word of the LORD; and what wisdom is in them?
Dan 2:21 And he changeth the times and the seasons: he removeth kings, and setteth up kings: he giveth wisdom unto the wise, and knowledge to them that know understanding:
Mat 7:24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:

All of these scriptures point to the fact that God gives us wisdom. Therefor if someone is wise, that is because they are wise in the ways of the Lord. See for instance the Jeremiah reference; they had rejected the Word of the Lord, and they had no wisdom!

1Cor 1:20 Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?
1Cor 3:18 Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you seemeth to be wise in this world, let him become a fool, that he may be wise.
1Cor 3:19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness.

Scripture clearly seems to clearly be rebuking what the "world" considers wise, because it is opposed to the truth of God. We should not be surprised by this because scripture also tells us that Satan is the ruler of this world.

2Cor 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
Joh 12:31 Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.

So if Satan is running this earth (for a time), should we be surprised if the whole earth is teaching something that is contrary to God and his Word? Something that only causes people to fall away or not believe? We as followers of Christ, should forget what we think we know, and look to God's word for understanding. Do you prefer words from scientists and doctors over the words of God? If you read a difficult passage that doesn't fit your understanding do you disregard it because the world says otherwise?

I know some of you are still wondering, what about dinosaurs and fossils man!? We know, because of scripture, that there were giants before and after the flood.
Gen 6:4 There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.
Deu 3:13 And the rest of Gilead, and all Bashan, being the kingdom of Og, gave I unto the half tribe of Manasseh; all the region of Argob, with all Bashan, which was called the land of giants.

Not only were there giant men walking the earth after the flood, there were also giant plants and fruit.
Num 13:23 And they came unto the brook of Eshcol, and cut down from thence a branch with one cluster of grapes, and they bare it between two upon a staff; and they brought of the pomegranates, and of the figs.

Would it then be safe to assume if there were giant people and plants, there were giant animals as well? I think this more than satisfies how we could have "dinosaur" bones. What about the ageing though, the fossil record? Again, do you trust man or God? A great resource for fossilization, and a man much more versed on the subject than myself, I feel provides a very concise explanation and I will link a short video here.

So, the last reason I think the earth is only over 6,000 years is because the signs of the times. I think we are in the last days. Just as God made the Earth in a literal week, he will bring about its completion in a figurative week. Meaning, its been almost 2,000 years since the death and resurection of Jesus Christ. We are now in the figurative third day. We have already read how 1,000 years is like a single day to God. When did Jesus rise from the dead? On the third day. When will he return? On the third (figurative) day! Look around you and see the ever growing evil engulfing the earth! God's longsuffering is drawing to an end and Christ will be returning soon!

I will ask you one final time. Do you believe the Word of God, or the wisdom of man?

i'll be honest i skimmed most of it, on a side note do you believe that dinosaurs existing is not biblical? it would just be another of God's creation.

As far as how i take the creation story, i prefer to have people tell me what God REALLY meant by day, because it's not like God is the most intelligent being that ever lived and knows how to communicate with His creation, no I need steve the scientist who hasn't lived past 120 years old to tell me that by day God really means billions and billions of years and then explain that the reason God didn't say billions of years is because...i'll wait...i still don't know why God would not just say what He did. Oh wait, He did, He said 6 days of creation -_-

 

[d taylor]

You apparently can't answer my, repeated, question about the point you are making in all this, so I see no point in continuing.
I've got too much to do to worry about pointless, academic arguments.

If you can not understand, then that is your problem, not mine. I knew i would be wasting my time in a discussion with you the very first time you quoted a post of mine. But i replied to you quotes of my post out of obliged courtesy.

 

[The Hour IS AT HAND]

i'll be honest i skimmed most of it, on a side note do you believe that dinosaurs existing is not biblical? it would just be another of God's creation.

Ya it seems most people did, especially the part I wrote about wisdom, which no one has yet to address.
I am undecided about dinosaurs... My biggest issue with them is that they are used not to support the biblical creation account but used to oppose it. While there very well could have been dinosaurs like the ones were told about existing, I also wouldn't be surprised if they didn't.

 

[Strong in Him]

If you can not understand, then that is your problem, not mine. I knew i would be wasting my time in a discussion with you the very first time you quoted a post of mine. But i replied to you quotes of my post out of obliged courtesy.

A good teacher doesn't blame their students for not understanding.
I asked you a simple question - what point are you making in this discussion? A follow up question would be, given that we both believe that God created the world, why does it matter?

Sorry if that's a waste of your time or beneath you.
God bless you anyway.

 

[dwb001]

A good teacher doesn't blame their students for not understanding.
I asked you a simple question - what point are you making in this discussion? A follow up question would be, given that we both believe that God created the world, why does it matter?

Sorry if that's a waste of your time or beneath you.
God bless you anyway.

Why the Creation event is important would be linked to if Jesus is needed.

If there is no Adam... then sin did not come into the world through his actions.
If sin did not come into the world through Adam... then Jesus is not needed.

If evolution is God's way of making life... and we have proof of sickness and disease in dino bones... and God said it was good.
Then sin, sickness, death, pain, suffering are all part of God's good plan... and Jesus is again not needed.

If the beginning of the book you are going to base your life on starts with deception and lies... then that is not a good foundation moving forward.


Just something to think about.

 

[Strong in Him]

Why the Creation event is important would be linked to if Jesus is needed.

If there is no Adam... then sin did not come into the world through his actions.
If sin did not come into the world through Adam... then Jesus is not needed.

If evolution is God's way of making life... and we have proof of sickness and disease in dino bones... and God said it was good.
Then sin, sickness, death, pain, suffering are all part of God's good plan... and Jesus is again not needed.

If the beginning of the book you are going to base your life on starts with deception and lies... then that is not a good foundation moving forward.


Just something to think about.

I don't need to think about it.
I believe God created the world.
I believe in Adam and Eve and the fall - I've never said otherwise.

The message of Genesis 1 is GOD created the universe.
Each "day" could have been 24 hours, meaning the whole of creation was done in 144 hours.
I doubt that God created in 144 hours - he could have done it in 144 minutes, so what took so long - and then he went to painstaking lengths to plant evidence to the contrary, so that we all believe it took longer.
I think it far more likely, personally, that each "day" was a period of time. And that the whole aim of the chapter was not to give a detailed biological, botanical and astronomical record, but to tell folk, in no uncertain terms, that it is God's world, he is the author of it and is in control. Given that the Bible is about God and by God, I think that most likely.

I could be wrong and I will get to heaven and find people asking why I didn't take Genesis 1 literally.
I could be right, get to heaven and be one of those saying "you really believe that God created in a week and then decided to plant fossils to fool everyone?"
I could get to heaven and find that no one cares, or even remembers that they used to argue about it, because they'll be too busy praising God and listening to all the testimonies from other Christians.
I don't debate creationism/evolution with non Christians - it's best to focus on Jesus.
I couldn't debate it with scientists. Years ago there was a "6 days Christian" who tried that on the BBC religion discussion forums - and the botanists/astronomists/geologists who knew what they were talking about, wiped the floor with him. All that did was to make it look as though Christians were naïve people who believed in fairy tales - and if this Christian was wrong about Genesis 1, why should they believe what he said about the rest of the Bible?

 

[dwb001]

I don't need to think about it.
I believe God created the world.
I believe in Adam and Eve and the fall - I've never said otherwise.

The message of Genesis 1 is GOD created the universe.
Each "day" could have been 24 hours, meaning the whole of creation was done in 144 hours.
I doubt that God created in 144 hours - he could have done it in 144 minutes, so what took so long - and then he went to painstaking lengths to plant evidence to the contrary, so that we all believe it took longer.

What evidence to the contrary?

I think it far more likely, personally, that each "day" was a period of time. And that the whole aim of the chapter was not to give a detailed biological, botanical and astronomical record, but to tell folk, in no uncertain terms, that it is God's world, he is the author of it and is in control. Given that the Bible is about God and by God, I think that most likely.

So God just fudged the numbers a little?
Does that sound like something God would do?

I could be wrong and I will get to heaven and find people asking why I didn't take Genesis 1 literally.
I could be right, get to heaven and be one of those saying "you really believe that God created in a week and then decided to plant fossils to fool everyone?"

You think fossils were part of the Creation event?
Really?

I could get to heaven and find that no one cares, or even remembers that they used to argue about it, because they'll be too busy praising God and listening to all the testimonies from other Christians.
I don't debate creationism/evolution with non Christians - it's best to focus on Jesus.
I couldn't debate it with scientists. Years ago there was a "6 days Christian" who tried that on the BBC religion discussion forums - and the botanists/astronomists/geologists who knew what they were talking about, wiped the floor with him.

So maybe he should have done a bit more prep work.

All that did was to make it look as though Christians were naïve people who believed in fairy tales - and if this Christian was wrong about Genesis 1, why should they believe what he said about the rest of the Bible?

And if Gen 1 starts off with a mis-truth... why should be believe the rest of the Bible?

 

[Strong in Him]

And if Gen 1 starts off with a mis-truth... why should be believe the rest of the Bible?

You think it starts with an untruth? You think God didn't create the world?

That is the purpose of Genesis 1; to say that GOD created the heavens and the earth. If he's wanted us to know exactly how, and how long it took him, he would have told us.
We can create things without them being instant. A woman can create a home. It may take a couple of years to get the furniture that she wants, the rooms decorated, any handmade/handsewn items, maybe a conservatory or nursery added - it may take a few years to get a family. But it would still be true to say that she created a home.
A man could create a garden - weeding, landscaping, building a rockery, planting will all take time. But at the end of it, a man would have created a garden, possibly from a wilderness.
And your parents created you - but it took 9 months for you to be born, and even longer for you to grow into the person that you are now.

If you're more interested in arguing about details of creation, which we don't know, rather than accepting that, as the OP said, it's nothing to do with salvation - I can't help you.
You even ignored what I said about believing in Adam and Eve and God as Creator, and continued to argue about fossils etc.

I'm done.

 

[dwb001]

You think it starts with an untruth? You think God didn't create the world?

Did you notice that it was a question?

That is the purpose of Genesis 1; to say that GOD created the heavens and the earth. If he's wanted us to know exactly how, and how long it took him, he would have told us.

He did. Six days.

We can create things without them being instant. A woman can create a home. It may take a couple of years to get the furniture that she wants, the rooms decorated, any handmade/handsewn items, maybe a conservatory or nursery added - it may take a few years to get a family. But it would still be true to say that she created a home.
A man could create a garden - weeding, landscaping, building a rockery, planting will all take time. But at the end of it, a man would have created a garden, possibly from a wilderness.
And your parents created you - but it took 9 months for you to be born, and even longer for you to grow into the person that you are now.

If you're more interested in arguing about details of creation, which we don't know, rather than accepting that, as the OP said, it's nothing to do with salvation - I can't help you.
You even ignored what I said about believing in Adam and Eve and God as Creator, and continued to argue about fossils etc.

I'm done.

The Creation story is central to salvation.
You do you I guess.

 

[The Hour IS AT HAND]

That is the purpose of Genesis 1; to say that GOD created the heavens and the earth. If he's wanted us to know exactly how, and how long it took him, he would have told us.

But he did tell us. So why not believe it?

 

[SeventhFisherofMen]

Ya it seems most people did, especially the part I wrote about wisdom, which no one has yet to address.
I am undecided about dinosaurs... My biggest issue with them is that they are used not to support the biblical creation account but used to oppose it. While there very well could have been dinosaurs like the ones were told about existing, I also wouldn't be surprised if they didn't.

fair, but my opinion is leave it to worldly people to try and explain away God with God's own creation. i mean it doesn't work yet some people still buy the lies

 

[d taylor]

A good teacher doesn't blame their students for not understanding.
I asked you a simple question - what point are you making in this discussion? A follow up question would be, given that we both believe that God created the world, why does it matter?

Sorry if that's a waste of your time or beneath you.
God bless you anyway.

-
​

Never claimed to be anyone's teacher, i am here just voicing my belief. That The Bibles creations accounts are the true accurate descriptions of God's creation and not science's version.

 

[Jipsah]

The Bible does address the earth and sun.

Yep. But which orbits which and who moves while who else stands still isn't even vaguely implied.

So you use the get around

No need to "get around" the ridiculous notion that the earth is flat, or stationary, and doesn't orbit the sun, and any other physical fact. Thwe Bible nowhere says any such thing.

because i can not answer about the sun and earth computer dodge.

Why not? Tyhe Bible is silent on those topics as well, just make something up and claim it's what the Scripture "really means".

 

[Jipsah]

What evidence to the contrary?

Oh, the geological record, perhaps? Oh, but God didn't leave that, that was Evil Scientists who faked all that stuff. Either that or God just Made Everything Look Old, and the universe was actually created last Thursday.

So God just fudged the numbers a little?

All the fossils and rock strata and radiological evidence and all are just God having a laugh.

Does that sound like something God would do?

It doesn't to me, but then I think you can look at His Creation itself and see what He actually did, without having to worry about what it says in a two page teaching story.

You think fossils were part of the Creation event?
Really?

No, Evil Scientists invented fossils.

So maybe he should have done a bit more prep work.

Or maybe your lot should pay a bit more attention to His actual handiwork and less to what your doctrine says you have to believe about it. But it wouldn't do to believe that God did a bit more design work than the "None" which you believe He did. In your world it was all just a magical incantation, and shaazam! everything was there and working out of the box. God didn't have to be the Great Architect or the Great Engineer. All He had to be was a really good magician.

I mean, how are we to believe that that God spent an unimaginable amount of time getting the universe to work accirding to His purposes? God is magic, so He said it and it happened, end of. Ignore all that stuff that sho boy makes it look like He worked on it over (to us) endless aeons.

Part of that is because of the utterly unimaginable complexity and scale of the thing. We can't fathom that. So we pare it down to a managable size, a safely comprehensible little universe that doesn't require too much believing. A nice pizza-looking earth sitting on a rock or a turtle or something, safely bound by an ice wall we can reach tomorrow afternoon if we have the cash. No space above us, just the underside of the planetary Astrodome that the lights hang from on their cords.

Relax K-Mart shoppers, Qantas flight 1473 to Sydney will take you as high above the earth as anyone has ever been. It's a safe snuggy little universe, with a kindly little God whose Creation will never frighten you.

And if Gen 1 starts off with a mis-truth... why should be believe the rest of the Bible?

I come at it in the other direction. I was a Christian before I ever read Genesis. But if, as you people often and loudly insist, that our Lord can't be taken literally when He says "Take, eat, this is My Body", why should I credit even a single syllable of the obvious teaching story that is Genesis? If the Word of Christ Himself can be cast aside as merely symbolic, what reason exists to believe for even an instant that the Creation story in Genesis is literally true, when the simplest observation of nature itself shows it to be merely symbolic?

 

[d taylor]

Yep. But which orbits which and who moves while who else stands still isn't even vaguely implied.


No need to "get around" the ridiculous notion that the earth is flat, or stationary, and doesn't orbit the sun, and any other physical fact. Thwe Bible nowhere says any such thing.

Why not? Tyhe Bible is silent on those topics as well, just make something up and claim it's what the Scripture "really means".

-
​

To stand still the sun must first, had to have been moving.
Strong's Hebrew: 1826. דָּמַם (damam) -- cease

So the sun stood still,
And the moon stopped,
Till the people had revenge
Upon their enemies.

To have a circuit from one end of heaven to the other the sun must be moving.

Which is like a bridegroom coming out of his chamber,
And rejoices like a strong man to run its race.
Its rising is from one end of heaven,
And its circuit to the other end;
And there is nothing hidden from its heat.

 

[dwb001]

Oh, the geological record, perhaps? Oh, but God didn't leave that, that was Evil Scientists who faked all that stuff. Either that or God just Made Everything Look Old, and the universe was actually created last Thursday.

Or maybe they just misinterpret the data to match their ideas, because that is easier to fit into a naturalistic world view.

All the fossils and rock strata and radiological evidence and all are just God having a laugh.

Flood accounts for fossils and the rock strata.
And radio-logical evidence? What exactly are you referring to?

It doesn't to me, but then I think you can look at His Creation itself and see what He actually did, without having to worry about what it says in a two page teaching story.

So you prefer to throw out the first few pages of the Bible.
What does that say about what else you might be convinced to throw out?

No, Evil Scientists invented fossils.

Correct. No Evil Scientists invented fossils.
Just animals that died out over the course of the Flood year.

Or maybe your lot should pay a bit more attention to His actual handiwork and less to what your doctrine says you have to believe about it. But it wouldn't do to believe that God did a bit more design work than the "None" which you believe He did. In your world it was all just a magical incantation, and shaazam! everything was there and working out of the box. God didn't have to be the Great Architect or the Great Engineer. All He had to be was a really good magician.

That is quite the straw man you have there.
Have you looked into a cell?
God is an amazing architect and engineer.

I mean, how are we to believe that that God spent an unimaginable amount of time getting the universe to work accirding to His purposes? God is magic, so He said it and it happened, end of. Ignore all that stuff that sho boy makes it look like He worked on it over (to us) endless aeons.

So you thing God is slow and I think God is fast.

Part of that is because of the utterly unimaginable complexity and scale of the thing. We can't fathom that. So we pare it down to a managable size, a safely comprehensible little universe that doesn't require too much believing. A nice pizza-looking earth sitting on a rock or a turtle or something, safely bound by an ice wall we can reach tomorrow afternoon if we have the cash. No space above us, just the underside of the planetary Astrodome that the lights hang from on their cords.

First of all the Earth is a globe and is unimaginable in complexity.
We can't fathom that.
So we wonder at a God that can create all of everything in just 6 days.
How great is our God.

Relax K-Mart shoppers, Qantas flight 1473 to Sydney will take you as high above the earth as anyone has ever been. It's a safe snuggy little universe, with a kindly little God whose Creation will never frighten you.

God's creation always frightens me.
It is huge and tiny, wonderful and common, complex beyond imagining and simple to live in.

I come at it in the other direction. I was a Christian before I ever read Genesis. But if, as you people often and loudly insist, that our Lord can't be taken literally when He says "Take, eat, this is My Body", why should I credit even a single syllable of the obvious teaching story that is Genesis? If the Word of Christ Himself can be cast aside as merely symbolic, what reason exists to believe for even an instant that the Creation story in Genesis is literally true, when the simplest observation of nature itself shows it to be merely symbolic?

Why could Jesus not be taken literally at the Last Supper?
Maybe you should give credit to the historical tale of the creation of the Earth because God said it.
When have I tossed aside the words of God and claimed them to be merely symbolic?

Maybe try an experiment?
Try to see Genesis as being literally true... then observe nature and see if Genesis is true does what you see match... form experiments based on Genesis being true to see how Genesis events could have made the things you see in nature.

One of these experiments went into operation in 1980. And results have been pouring in that back the Genesis model of world shaping, fossil creation, etc. Spirit Lake.

 

[The Barbarian]

Your question is a false dichotomy. Now, you do rightfully say that the age of the earth is not a matter of salvation, but for a lot of people it becomes one. If you ask someone if they'd like to come to Church with you and they respond with, "no. I'm not buying that 6000 year old earth nonsense", you have denied salvation to a person for no reason at all. So your question then becomes "do you want to trust in man or trust in me"?

This is the key. If scripture was clear about these things, then all Christians would agree. Anyone who tells you that it is clear on the way God created living things, is asking you to believe him, not God.

 

[dwb001]

This is the key. If scripture was clear about these things, then all Christians would agree. Anyone who tells you that it is clear on the way God created living things, is asking you to believe him, not God.

The age of the Earth is the thin edge of the wedge that leads to the acceptance of evolutionary theory that leads to Jesus not being required to forgive sin that leads to atheism.

So yes, at the root, the age of the Earth is salvational.

 

[The Barbarian]

The age of the Earth is the thin edge of the wedge that leads to the acceptance of evolutionary theory that leads to Jesus not being required to forgive sin that leads to atheism.

Sorry, that is contradicted by the huge number of Christians who have no problem with the findings of science. It's just a story creationists tell each other to feel better about themselves. Not all of them; many creationists are no less Christian than the rest of us. A minority of them have made an idol of their new interpretations of scripture. They don't represent all creationists.