Adam, Eve, and Evolution

[Fervent]

In terms of space-time, it is billions of years old.

From my understanding, it cannot be one week old because I was there one week ago.

This reminds me of Bertrand Russell's skeptical hypothesis asking how he could know he and the entire universe wasn't created 5 minutes ago with false memories of a time before that. My question is, when did questions of mechanics become theology? Leave the science to the scientists, just worry about what's in the Bible for theology.

 

[Diamond72]

Leave the science to the scientists,

Science helps us to understand God better. He has left us a record so we know what He has done.

 

[Fervent]

Science helps us to understand God better. He has left us a record so we know what He has done.

Science does nothing of the sort, since the only things that can be determined about God from natural revelation is sufficient for condemnation. Paul warned not to be taken captive by human philosophies, but that's exactly what has happened with the natural sciences and speculative philosophy. God's word tells us all we need to know about God.

 

[Diamond72]

Science does nothing of the sort

Science allows me to understand the Bible better and to see how Awesome God is. God expresses HImself through Science just as much as the Bible. Science, esp Archeology confirms again and again the truth that we find in our Bible.

I view science as a means of gaining a deeper understanding of the Bible and God's creation. Many people share this perspective, believing that both science and spirituality can coexist and complement each other.

Moses and Abraham were trained in science at the best schools of their time. Moses was a Pharrow's son so he got the same education the leaders of the government got in Egypt. Moses gave us so much. Civil engineering and so on. Abraham was called to come out from among them to separate what is true from what is not true. Abrahamic faiths (Judaism, Christianity, and Islam), discouraged or rejected practices related to divination and astrology. These traditions emphasized the worship of one God and a focus on spiritual matters rather than attempts to foretell the future through celestial observations.

Abraham was living with his father Terah in Ur, he came to recognize the futility of idol worship and the belief in multiple gods. Abraham is said to have smashed the idols that were worshipped in their household.
This action was a symbol of his rejection of idolatry and his commitment to the worship of the one true God. It is considered a significant step in his spiritual journey and his devotion to monotheism.

 

[Fervent]

Science allows me to understand the Bible better and to see how Awesome God is. God expresses HImself through Science just as much as the Bible. Science, esp Archeology confirms again and again the truth that we find in our Bible.

I view science as a means of gaining a deeper understanding of the Bible and God's creation. Many people share this perspective, believing that both science and spirituality can coexist and complement each other.

Marvelling at creation and finding cause for worshipping the Creator is a different beast from engaging in theology. I'm not belittling science, simply stating that the right tools have to be used for the right job and the only tool for searching God's nature is His own self-revelation.

 

[Diamond72]

Leave the science to the scientists, just worry about what's in the Bible for theology.

Many religious traditions and denominations require individuals to have a college degree before they can attend seminary or pursue ordination. This educational requirement is often associated with the specific traditions' theological and educational standards. Here are some religious groups that commonly require a college degree before entering seminary:

1. Roman Catholicism: In the Roman Catholic Church, individuals seeking ordination as priests typically need a bachelor's degree, which includes a significant amount of philosophy and theology coursework, before they can enter a seminary. This educational requirement ensures a solid foundation in Catholic theology and doctrine.
2. Mainline Protestant Denominations: Many mainline Protestant denominations, such as the Episcopal Church, the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America (ELCA), and the United Methodist Church, require candidates for ordination to have a bachelor's degree before entering seminary. The specific educational prerequisites can vary among denominations.
3. Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.): The Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.) generally requires candidates for ordination to have a bachelor's degree and then complete a Master of Divinity (M.Div.) program in seminary. The M.Div. is the standard educational requirement for ordained ministry in this tradition.
4. Unitarian Universalism: Unitarian Universalist congregations often require candidates for ministry to have a college degree and complete seminary education, typically including a Master of Divinity (M.Div.) program.
5. Baptist Denominations: While some Baptist denominations may have less stringent educational requirements, others may require a college degree, especially for pastoral positions. The specific requirements can vary among Baptist associations and congregations.
6. Orthodox Judaism: In Orthodox Jewish tradition, individuals pursuing rabbinic ordination typically have a strong foundation in Jewish studies and often hold a bachelor's degree or equivalent education before enrolling in a rabbinical seminary or yeshiva.

 

[Fervent]

Many religious traditions and denominations require individuals to have a college degree before they can attend seminary or pursue ordination. This educational requirement is often associated with the specific traditions' theological and educational standards. Here are some religious groups that commonly require a college degree before entering seminary:

1. Roman Catholicism: In the Roman Catholic Church, individuals seeking ordination as priests typically need a bachelor's degree, which includes a significant amount of philosophy and theology coursework, before they can enter a seminary. This educational requirement ensures a solid foundation in Catholic theology and doctrine.
2. Mainline Protestant Denominations: Many mainline Protestant denominations, such as the Episcopal Church, the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America (ELCA), and the United Methodist Church, require candidates for ordination to have a bachelor's degree before entering seminary. The specific educational prerequisites can vary among denominations.
3. Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.): The Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.) generally requires candidates for ordination to have a bachelor's degree and then complete a Master of Divinity (M.Div.) program in seminary. The M.Div. is the standard educational requirement for ordained ministry in this tradition.
4. Unitarian Universalism: Unitarian Universalist congregations often require candidates for ministry to have a college degree and complete seminary education, typically including a Master of Divinity (M.Div.) program.
5. Baptist Denominations: While some Baptist denominations may have less stringent educational requirements, others may require a college degree, especially for pastoral positions. The specific requirements can vary among Baptist associations and congregations.
6. Orthodox Judaism: In Orthodox Jewish tradition, individuals pursuing rabbinic ordination typically have a strong foundation in Jewish studies and often hold a bachelor's degree or equivalent education before enrolling in a rabbinical seminary or yeshiva.

Requiring a general literacy and liberal arts training prior to serious Bible study doesn't negate my statement, which is simply to leave matters of science to the experts and focus on what God's word reveals when studying who God is.

 

[tonychanyt]

You've invented some things there to finagle them in an attempt to side-step the problem and have two acts of creation, one in "witnessed time" whatever that is, and one in space-time. The problem is, as far as I can tell there is only one reality

Right.

and one stream of history.

Right.

So which stream of history are we living in, space-time or witnessed time?

By definition, witnessed time. Please read my definitions in the OP.

 

[BobRyan]

Requiring a general literacy and liberal arts training prior to serious Bible study doesn't negate my statement, which is simply to leave matters of science to the experts and focus on what God's word reveals when studying who God is.

And God's Word is pretty clear in its statement about the 7 day creation week of Gen 2:2-3 being the same as the week at Sinai in Ex 20:8-11... for those interested in exegesis and context when rendering the meaning of the text. It is very obvious that neither Moses nor the newly freed slaves gathered at Sinai in Exodus 20 - were "darwinists"

 

[BobRyan]

Watchman1 said:

If you are not prepared to accept the meaning of the Hebrew word "yom" as a 24 hour day,'

Good point
1. A single rotation of the planet .,.. a single "evening and morning" for each day in Gen 1
2. A single day - "six days you shall labor... for in six days the LORD made.." in Ex 20. A single (real) day.

Glaringly obvious for the one not determined to eisegete their own preference... no matter the bent-wrenched result it makes of the text.

Sure, see Is a yom/day always = 24 hours? and follow up there

As the Orthodox Jewish Rabbis themselves affirm - the term yom in Ex 20:8-11 cannot be bent-wrenched each time you see it to mean something entirely different from the previous use in those verses - and still have solid exegesis as the result.

Almost all Christian denominations affirm this same glaringly obvious point in the Hebrew text of Ex 20.

Almost every Christian denomination on Earth affirms the continued *"unit of TEN" for Christians today

Thanks for sharing. Can you prove your claim by referencing in a scholarly manner:

1. Give the name of the source.
2. Provide the link to the source. It is the URL address.
3. Indent the quoted text.
4. Bold the relevant keywords that are important to the point that you are making.
5. Be concise and to the point.

This is what I do for others who read my posts. It is a standard high-school scholarship. If you practice this, I guarantee you: it will improve your analytical thinking. In any case, no one is required to do it here.

[*]The Baptist Confession of Faith section 19
[*]The Westminster Confession of Faith section 19
[*]Voddie Baucham
[*]C.H. Spurgeon
[*]D.L. Moody
[*]Dies Domini by Pope John Paul II
[*]D. James Kennedy
[*]R.C. Sproul

=============================

http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/j...nts/hf_jp-ii_apl_05071998_dies-domini_en.html

Dies Domini pt 11

"the rest of the Sabbath..discloses something of the nuptial shape of the relationship which God wants to establish with the creature made in his image, by calling that creature to enter a pact of love".

Dies Domini pt 13 -

"the Sabbath ...is therefore rooted in the depths of God's plan. This is why unlike many other laws - it is not within the context of strictly cultic (Jewish) stipulations but within the Decalogue the "ten words" which represent the very pillars of moral life inscribed on the human heart!! In setting this commandment within the context of the basic structure of ethics, Israel and then the church declare that they consider it not just a matter of community religious discipline but a defining and indelible expression of our relationship to God, announced and expounded by biblical revelations.


Dies Domini pt 11 "if the first page of the book of Genesis presents God's work as an example for man, the same is true of God's rest - on the seventh day God finished his work which he had done therefore God blessed the seventh day and made it holy...it is a gaze which God casts upon all things, but in a special way upon man, the crown of creation. It is a gaze which already discloses something of the nuptial shape of the relationship God wants to establish with the creature made in his own image, by calling that creature to enter a pact of love."

=====================

CCC starting at 2052.

2068 The Council of Trent teaches that the Ten Commandments are obligatory for Christians and that the justified man is still bound to keep them;28 The Second Vatican Council confirms: "The bishops, successors of the apostles, receive from the Lord . . . the mission of teaching all peoples, and of preaching the Gospel to every creature, so that all men may attain salvation through faith, Baptism and the observance of the Commandments."

Please connect your comment to the topic in the OP.

from the OP

From the scientific perspective in terms of space-time, God created the earth with evolutionary events, including dinosaurs, Neanderthals, etc. embedded in it.

A clear reference to Creation week.

From the biblical point of view, God created Adam and Eve in real-time (or witnessed-time) history as described in Genesis.

A Clear reference to Creation week.

 

[BobRyan]

When Dan 9 predicted a 490 year timeline for Israel having 483 years from the decree to rebuild Jerusalem to the start of the Messiah's Ministry in 27AD - it is a prediction in "real time" in real "witnessed time" , in space time.

When Christ predicted the period of time between His death and resurrection it was a prediction in "real time" in real "witnessed time" , in space time.

There are a number of predictions in the Bible that work out that way --

 

[Jipsah]

By talking about another example, it might be helpful to see the big picture on this. Many of us have tried at times to help Flat Earthers get past that false doctrine.

Why? After all, we don't have to correct every inadequate understanding of just any kind anywhere. (and Romans 14 points this out about scripture also)

But there are a few doctrines that block seekers from finding God and Christ and being saved. Flat Earth can be one of those at times.

Both some militant atheists and some few believers try to convince people in general that the Bible says the Earth is flat.

Which would block about 90% of more of seekers if they can convince them of that.

If the bible did really say the Earth was flat (it does not!), that would conclusively prove to a seeker who doesn't yet know God that it must then be that all such parts of the Bible simply entirely false.... and by extension strongly suggest that God cannot exist, or at least not as in the Bible.

So, if Flat Earthers (and certain anti-Christian atheists that wish to destroy faith) can convince the lost that the bible says the Earth is flat, then few would get past that false idea and trust in scripture at all...



It might be better to instead try to get a Christian caught up Flat Earth doctrine to see some particular such verses in scripture doesn't say what they think it does.
I've tried to help at times by quoting such verses in total full context. That way, the verses they have been trained to think support Flat Earth they might possibly begin to understand.
The idea is that if they can finally understand the verses about what they really are saying (wonderful things actually), then that will help them leave the false Flat Earth doctrine.
Do you agree?

Sadly, no. The response of many Flatties is that no, the Bible doesn't explicitly say that the earth is flat, but that its use of language that implies a flat earth must be taken as literally true. As you've probably noted, they defend their ill-founded beliefs with a zealot's passion. They see themselves as manning the ramparts to defy the hordes of satan, whose only goal is to deceive people into the false belief that the world is round and orbits ther sun. Why satan would benefit by such a deception is left unexplored, apparent that satan benefits from deceiving anyone about anything, no matter what.

And yeah, they make Christians look like a bunch of illiterate half-wits, but yoiu'll never get them to see that, or at least I never have. I wish you better success.

 

[Jipsah]

Neanderthals never went away completely. They interbred with modern humans. 4 percent of my DNA is from neanderthals. Among people of European ancestry, that is typical.

Given my East-Asian ancestry, I'm probably more neanderthal than most here. It doesn't seem to have done me any harm, though.

 

[Jipsah]

Good point
1. A single rotation of the planet .,.. a single "evening and morning" for each day in Gen 1
2. A single day - "six days you shall labor... for in six days the LORD made.." in Ex 20. A single (real) day.

2 Peter 3:8, Psalm 90:4

Net effect, God doesn't reckon time as we do.,

I know, that "doesn't count", right?

Cool, tell us why it doesn't count.

 

[Jipsah]

Almost every Christian denomination on Earth affirms the continued *"unit of TEN" for Christians today

Is that translatable to plain English? Offhand if doesn't appear to have anything at all to do with the poetic "days" of Genesis. Your lot set a lot of store by that, probably because that's the sine qua non of your religion. Why should the rest of us whose religion doesn't depend on the technical accuracy by modern human standards of the ancient Hebrew scriptures, care a fig whether the Creation took six days or six zillion years?

Fact is, most us don't worry a whole lot about keeping the Sabbath as commended of the Jews: A) because we're not Jews, and B) we have real sins to worry about. (I mean, we probably eat pork and shrimps, too!)

 

[AV1611VET]

Cool, tell us why it doesn't count.

It would make things even worse for evolutionists.

If the creation events in Genesis 1 were done within six 1000 year days:

1. That doesn't explain the billions of years that evolutionists cram into Earth's history
2. How did grasses, trees, shrubs, and other gymnosperms survive 1000 years without sunlight?

 

[AV1611VET]

Why should the rest of us whose religion doesn't depend on the technical accuracy by modern human standards of the ancient Hebrew scriptures, care a fig whether the Creation took six days or six zillion years?

Because the longer you make those days, the worse you make it for science to explain it.

Not that science can anyway.

But are you willing to tell science to take a hike, when it comes to the events of the creation week?

(I hope you are.)

 

[Jipsah]

Marvelling at creation and finding cause for worshipping the Creator is a different beast from engaging in theology. I'm not belittling science, simply stating that the right tools have to be used for the right job and the only tool for searching God's nature is His own self-revelation.

Old man Ike Newton seems to have done pretty well in both hi pusuit of cience and his Christian convictions although his eschatology was pretty much wack).

 

[Jipsah]

It would make things even worse for evolutionists.

Nah, we're all doomed anyway. 4th chapter of Jude: "Neither shalt thou believe in evolution, else you'll go to hell and .be roasted over a slow fire and basted with soy sauce and green onions for all eternity. Selah"

If the creation events in Genesis 1 were done within six 1000 year days:

1. That doesn't explain the billions of years that evolutionists cram into Earth's history

The "1000 days" doesn't signify. The point is that it's super-dumb to hold God to human limitations. "God couldn't have made the whole universe, it's too heavy!"

1. How did grasses, trees, shrubs, and other gymnosperms survive 1000 years without sunlight?

He made them in the last 15 minutes of the 1000 years. Or the 100,000,000 years. GOD ISNT BOUND BY TIME! Y'all have a kinda pathetic view of God, looks like. We can imaghine Him doing something in a week (that's why it was written that way) but as you can see how we act if we try to comprehand a God to whom "... a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night." Oh no, that can't be right! Right?

 

[Jipsah]

Because the long you make those days, the worse you make it for science to explain it.

Science looks,and says "it looks like it took a few zillions years". The Christian says "OK, "For a thousand years in His sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night." Times limits us, not God.

But are you willing to tell science to take a hike

Better put all that sciency stuff that your life and livelihood depend on down and move into a cave, then. Your 'puter should be the first thing to go flying out the window, followed closely by any other electronic stuff. Spare us the hypocritical science bashing, you depend on it being true just as much as anyone else.

, when it comes to the events of the creation week?

Yep, it was teaching about the Creation Week that caused Cornelius and his household to turn to Christ.

Right.

Ya know, I just read over all the Creeds again, and I noticed there's nothing at all about how long it took God to create the universe. It's almost like that isn't a basic Christian teaching! Hmmmmm...