By his stripes, we are healed. Really?

[Bobber]

Rightly divide the word of truth.

Sure we need to do that.

Imagine you meet a Christian who want to claim Genesis 15:5 as God's promise to him, and he push back hard against anyone who attempt to teach him that promise was specific to Abraham.

Sure I get ya. It would be like looking at the promise to Noah and instructions to build the ark and someone now goes out to build it. Ha...some have for an evangelical center.

But the promise and declaration of healings belonged to Israel, Abrahams seed and you can read that in Duet 28....very, very clearly. Then you come over to Lk13:16 which Jesus tells the religious leaders of his day a woman should be, SHOULD BE healed....and why? Because she was a daughter of Abraham. The religious leaders should have known that all along but they didn't have a clue as to real covenant rights OF.... the seed of Abraham but then you come over to Galatians 3:29 which says You which are Christ ARE....ARE....ARE.....Abrahams seed......there's no reason therefore to not believe that healing must belong to the saints of God if they will stand for it. The question is WILL THEY?????

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Sure we need to do that.

Sure I get ya. It would be like looking at the promise to Noah and instructions to build the ark and someone now goes out to build it. Ha...some have for an evangelical center.

But the promise and declaration of healings belonged to Israel, Abrahams seed and you can read that in Duet 28....very, very clearly. Then you come over to Lk13:16 which Jesus tells the religious leaders of his day a woman should be, SHOULD BE healed....and why? Because she was a daughter of Abraham. The religious leaders should have known that all along but they didn't have a clue as to real covenant rights OF.... the seed of Abraham but then you come over to Galatians 3:29 which says You which are Christ ARE....ARE....ARE.....Abrahams seed......there's no reason therefore to not believe that healing must belong to the saints of God if they will stand for it. The question is WILL THEY?????

Your last question seems to imply that being sick or disabled is a sign of not being right with God and not being as holy as the person should be. It leads to the question, "What's wrong with me that I am sick and remain so after being prayed for?" Jesus answered the question, "Who has sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?" This shows that the Jews believed that sickness came as the result of personal sin. Job's friends had the attitude that Job had sinned in some way for him to be experiencing the hardships he suffered. But in relation to the man born blind, Jesus said that it wasn't the man or his parents being sinners, but that it was for the glory of God that he was healed. When God turned up in the whirlwind, He made it clear that Job's friends were totally wrong, and that they and Job had no idea of who God is and what He is capable of.

It shows that God's ways are not our ways and our thoughts. As far as heaven is above the earth, so God's ways are above our ways. Some think they have the correct formula for getting people healed, and they tend to blame the sick person when their formula doesn't work. The truth is that God is not limited to a formula. He is the potter and we are the clay, and we know that the clay cannot say to the potter, "Why have you made me like this?"

A craftsman can make a beautiful ornament out of ceramic material, and then he can use the same material to make a toilet bowl. Does the toilet bowl question the craftsman why it is a toilet bowl for people to do their business on, while the other is a beautiful ornament that people view and admire?

 

[Guojing]

but then you come over to Galatians 3:29 which says You which are Christ ARE....ARE....ARE.....Abrahams seed......there's no reason therefore to not believe that healing must belong to the saints of God if they will stand for it. The question is WILL THEY?????

Galatians 3:14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

Notice the KJV deliberately use the singular blessing in Galatians 3.

Abraham was promised many things and blessed with many things in scripture. What is that singular blessing that Abraham that Paul was referring to in Galatians 3?

Otherwise, you will have to agree that anyone of us can also claim Genesis 15:5 by faith and can have nations born out of them, which I don't think you will say that.

 

[Bobber]

Galatians 3:14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

Notice the KJV deliberately use the singular blessing in Galatians 3.

I think we can rightly say in Abrahams day they did not have the Spirit in them through faith. When Christ came and was raised from the dead it made that available. That cannot however set aside merciful, compassionate acts of mercy that were promised and were apart of the seed of Abrahams rights .....yes rights, for Jesus said ought not this woman being a daughter of Abraham be loosed from her physicals affliction? Ought naught means she should be. That just wasn't given to Abraham. But to his seed. The woman in Lk 13:16 lived thousands of years after Abraham.....and they were servants of God not Sons of God until after Jesus arose from the dead. But we are sons of God. The servants have greater right than the Sons. The seed of Abraham has rights to be healed from a covenant standpoint Yes we are the seed of Abraham today.

 

[Bobber]

Otherwise, you will have to agree that anyone of us can also claim Genesis 15:5 by faith and can have nations born out of them, which I don't think you will say that.

No I do not. Abraham was the FATHER of the seed. And God gave promises and covenant rights to the seed if they were obedient.

Your way of reasoning would be like I promised someone to establish their life in a place. And I give them a house and a place to live. Then I tell him what I will do for his offspring. That doesn't have to mean I give them exactly what I gave the Father.

 

[Bobber]

Your last question seems to imply that being sick or disabled is a sign of not being right with God and not being as holy as the person should be.

Because I said people do need to stand for healing? No I don't hold it doesn't make you not right with God for not doing so. And I don't say it makes you less holy not to see healing manifested. I will say what Jesus said different ones of his children produce off the word of God different results. Some 30 fold, some 60 and some 100. And I'm not talking about money there as in 100 fold return, no I'm talking about producing from the word of God to every level that God has provided.

It leads to the question, "What's wrong with me that I am sick and remain so after being prayed for?"

Well that does raise another question which we should not be afraid to ask. What does one even know about prayer, praying in faith, believing one receives when they pray.....Even Paul the Apostle gave one 1 Cor 11:30 and I stress one of the reasons why this is. Could there be other reasons. Yes and we can talk about what the Bible says about other possible reasons too.

Jesus answered the question, "Who has sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?" This shows that the Jews believed that sickness came as the result of personal sin.

But hold on now. This isn't necessarily totally and absolutely wrong. Jesus said to one man whom he healed John 5:14 Does that mean that's the reason for all not being healed? Of course not.

It shows that God's ways are not our ways and our thoughts.

But he has given us all things that pertain to life and godliness. 2 Pt 1:3

Some think they have the correct formula for getting people healed, and they tend to blame the sick person when their formula doesn't work.

I think there are formulas in God's word telling us how to function in faith. I won't back down from saying that. I do believe though there are principals involved too. Some may seek to apply a formula of HOW to pray in faith and they may not even have a good relationship with God in fellowship or seek his will and no you don't just push a button and see results. I still hold though there are still ways Jesus taught us in how to pray and get results.

 

[SavedByGrace3]

Galatians 3:14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

Notice the KJV deliberately use the singular blessing in Galatians 3.

Abraham was promised many things and blessed with many things in scripture. What is that singular blessing that Abraham that Paul was referring to in Galatians 3?

Otherwise, you will have to agree that anyone of us can also claim Genesis 15:5 by faith and can have nations born out of them, which I don't think you will say that.

It sounds like the Old Covenant had better promises than the New Covenant.

.
Hebrews 8:6 KJV
6. But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.

2 Corinthians 1:20 KJV
20. For all the promises of God in him are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us.

3 John 1:2 KJV
2. Beloved, I wish above all things that thou mayest prosper and be in health, even as thy soul prospereth.

2 Peter 1:3 KJV
3. According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:

 

[Guojing]

It sounds like the Old Covenant had better promises than the New Covenant.

.
Hebrews 8:6 KJV
6. But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.

2 Corinthians 1:20 KJV
20. For all the promises of God in him are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us.

3 John 1:2 KJV
2. Beloved, I wish above all things that thou mayest prosper and be in health, even as thy soul prospereth.

2 Peter 1:3 KJV
3. According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:

The Old covenant has physical blessings of health and wealth yes, see Deut 28.

Our blessings are spiritual (Ephesians 1:3, 2 Corinthians 4:16-18)

In the light of eternal life vs our short physical life on Earth, which is better, in your view?

 

[Guojing]

No I do not. Abraham was the FATHER of the seed. And God gave promises and covenant rights to the seed if they were obedient.

Your way of reasoning would be like I promised someone to establish their life in a place. And I give them a house and a place to live. Then I tell him what I will do for his offspring. That doesn't have to mean I give them exactly what I gave the Father.

So you do agree that not every blessing given to Abraham is for us to claim.

Only a singular blessing, as stated in Galatians 3. What blessing do you think that is, given the context of Galatians 3:6-13?

 

[SavedByGrace3]

The Old covenant has physical blessings of health and wealth yes, see Deut 28.

Our blessings are spiritual (Ephesians 1:3, 2 Corinthians 4:16-18)

In the light of eternal life vs our short physical life on Earth, which is better, in your view?

Why separate them? Why suggest we cannot or should not have both?
He is not asking us to choose between one or the other.

 

[Guojing]

Why separate them? Why suggest we cannot or should not have both?
He is not asking us to choose between on or the other.

As I said to the other guy, do you think God want us to claim promises he made to specific individuals such as

Abraham Genesis 15:5, that he will father many nations?
The 12 apostles Matthew 19:28, that they will sit on 12 thrones and judge the 12 tribes of Israel?

If you meet a Christian who want to claim those promises for himself, how would you respond to him? Do you think he will please God by doing that (2 Timothy 2:15)?

 

[jiminpa]

Its more to reinforce what Paul teaches all of us to do, to get God's approval today, in 2 Timothy 2:15.

Rightly divide the word of truth.

Imagine you meet a Christian who want to claim Genesis 15:5 as God's promise to him, and he push back hard against anyone who attempt to teach him that promise was specific to Abraham.

How would you respond to that?

Do you know what the term non-sequitur means?

 

[Guojing]

Do you know what the term non-sequitur means?

Yes.

I am glad you agree that not every promise written in God's word is for us to claim today.

We have to consider who was it given to, and when it was or will it be given.

 

[SavedByGrace3]

As I said to the other guy, do you think God want us to claim promises he made to specific individuals such as

Abraham Genesis 15:5, that he will father many nations?
The 12 apostles Matthew 19:28, that they will sit on 12 thrones and judge the 12 tribes of Israel?

If you meet a Christian who want to claim those promises for himself, how would you respond to him? Do you think he will please God by doing that (2 Timothy 2:15)?

But the ones that are specifically mentioned in the NT do belong to us.
There is a plethora of promises mentioned in the NT, many of which are quoted from the OT and belong to us. When Paul discusses "the curse of the law" in Galatians, he is referring, in part, to the curses mentioned in Deut 28. This applies to healing, and we can see, it in one summary verse at the end of that chapter:

Deuteronomy 28:59-60 KJV
59. Then the LORD will make thy plagues wonderful, and the plagues of thy seed,
even great plagues, and of long continuance, and sore sicknesses, and of long continuance.
60. Moreover he will bring upon thee all the diseases of Egypt, which thou wast afraid of;
and they shall cleave unto thee.
61. Also every sickness, and every plague, which is not written in the book of this law,
them will the LORD bring upon thee, until thou be destroyed.

If we have been redeemed from the curse of the law, then we have been redeemed from every sickness written in the book and every one that is not written in the book.

We could go through the NT and present dozens of direct statements that declare healing is the will of God for every believer. If this is so, that is, if we remove God from the equation, then logically, it must be something else. Our goal should be to find the real reason. But in this discussion, to suggest God is the cause, then we are without hope. If God is against your being healed... then just settle into your sickbed and resign yourself to the inevitable.

Happily, that is not the case. I fully believe that this is not only the will of God, but it should be our approach to the healing question:

3 John 1:2 KJV
2. Beloved, I wish above all things that thou mayest prosper and be in health,
even as thy soul prospereth.

Galatians 3:10-13 KJV
10. For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written,
Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
11. But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
12. And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.
13. Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written,
Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

Thank you for the discussion.

 

[Guojing]

But the ones that are specifically mentioned in the NT do belong to us.
There is a plethora of promises mentioned in the NT, many of which are quoted from the OT and belong to us. When Paul discusses "the curse of the law" in Galatians, he is referring, in part, to the curses mentioned in Deut 28. This applies to healing, and we can see, it in one summary verse at the end of that chapter:

Deuteronomy 28:59-60 KJV
59. Then the LORD will make thy plagues wonderful, and the plagues of thy seed,
even great plagues, and of long continuance, and sore sicknesses, and of long continuance.
60. Moreover he will bring upon thee all the diseases of Egypt, which thou wast afraid of;
and they shall cleave unto thee.
61. Also every sickness, and every plague, which is not written in the book of this law,
them will the LORD bring upon thee, until thou be destroyed.

If we have been redeemed from the curse of the law, then we have been redeemed from every sickness written in the book and every one that is not written in the book.

We could go through the NT and present dozens of direct statements that declare healing is the will of God for every believer. If this is so, that is, if we remove God from the equation, then logically, it must be something else. Our goal should be to find the real reason. But in this discussion, to suggest God is the cause, then we are without hope. If God is against your being healed... then just settle into your sickbed and resign yourself to the inevitable.

Happily, that is not the case. I fully believe that this is not only the will of God, but it should be our approach to the healing question:

3 John 1:2 KJV
2. Beloved, I wish above all things that thou mayest prosper and be in health,
even as thy soul prospereth.

Galatians 3:10-13 KJV
10. For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written,
Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
11. But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
12. And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.
13. Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written,
Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

Thank you for the discussion.

If you read on from that last paragraph of yours

Galatians 3:14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

Notice the KJV deliberately use the singular blessing in Galatians 3.

Abraham was promised many things and blessed with many things in scripture. What is that singular blessing that Abraham that Paul was referring to in Galatians 3?

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

But the ones that are specifically mentioned in the NT do belong to us.
There is a plethora of promises mentioned in the NT, many of which are quoted from the OT and belong to us. When Paul discusses "the curse of the law" in Galatians, he is referring, in part, to the curses mentioned in Deut 28. This applies to healing, and we can see, it in one summary verse at the end of that chapter:

Deuteronomy 28:59-60 KJV
59. Then the LORD will make thy plagues wonderful, and the plagues of thy seed,
even great plagues, and of long continuance, and sore sicknesses, and of long continuance.
60. Moreover he will bring upon thee all the diseases of Egypt, which thou wast afraid of;
and they shall cleave unto thee.
61. Also every sickness, and every plague, which is not written in the book of this law,
them will the LORD bring upon thee, until thou be destroyed.

If we have been redeemed from the curse of the law, then we have been redeemed from every sickness written in the book and every one that is not written in the book.

We could go through the NT and present dozens of direct statements that declare healing is the will of God for every believer. If this is so, that is, if we remove God from the equation, then logically, it must be something else. Our goal should be to find the real reason. But in this discussion, to suggest God is the cause, then we are without hope. If God is against your being healed... then just settle into your sickbed and resign yourself to the inevitable.

Happily, that is not the case. I fully believe that this is not only the will of God, but it should be our approach to the healing question:

3 John 1:2 KJV
2. Beloved, I wish above all things that thou mayest prosper and be in health,
even as thy soul prospereth.

Galatians 3:10-13 KJV
10. For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written,
Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
11. But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
12. And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.
13. Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written,
Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

Thank you for the discussion.

The history of Israel since the promise of health was that they did not remain faithful to God, but went into idolatry. This meant that they were then subject to the curse of all the diseases of Egypt coming upon them. If we consider what Moses taught, and the failure of Israel to remain faithful to the Lord, then while it is absolutely true that we have been delivered from the curse of the Law, there is a condition that we remain faithful to the Lord. Our justification is based on God's promises that when we believe on Him, we will be saved regardless of our works, But there are no promises that our sanctification is automatic in the same way. Conversely, we have to work at our sanctification to enjoy the blessing that God has for us in this world. Therefore, it could be argued that if a person's sanctification fell below the expected standard, then they would lose out on many good things that God has for him, including good health.

But then, there is always the exception to the rule that makes things not as straight forward as we think. There are many wonderful, saintly believers who had had to struggle with sickness and disability and there are utter hypocrites who have had healthy lives free of disease and disability. So, although we have the theory, there is a lot of mystery why the theory doesn't comply to our lives in every case. However, the best thing we can do is to work on our sanctification so that we can live the best life for the Lord that is possible for us. And if we maintain good health we rejoice in the grace of God, and have compassion on those who suffer through sickness and disability, praying for them when opportunity arises.

 

[SavedByGrace3]

Galatians 3:14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

Notice the KJV deliberately use the singular blessing in Galatians 3.

Abraham was promised many things and blessed with many things in scripture. What is that singular blessing that Abraham that Paul was referring to in Galatians 3?

Of course, and nobody is denying that. But the blessings and curses of the law are more than just receiving the Spirit. That is important, yes, absolutely. But a causal reading of the blessings and curses reveals it is much more than that. And you are correct; the word blessing is in the singular when referring to the Spirit because that is one blessing.
Paul uses the plural in:

2 Corinthians 1:20 KJV
20. For all the promises of God in him are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us.

He preached all the promises, not just one.
Deuteronomy 28:2-14 KJV
2. And all these blessings shall come on thee, and overtake thee, if thou shalt hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God.
3. Blessed shalt thou be in the city, and blessed shalt thou be in the field.
4. Blessed shall be the fruit of thy body, and the fruit of thy ground, and the fruit of thy cattle, the increase of thy kine, and the flocks of thy sheep.
5. Blessed shall be thy basket and thy store.
6. Blessed shalt thou be when thou comest in, and blessed shalt thou be when thou goest out.
7. The LORD shall cause thine enemies that rise up against thee to be smitten before thy face: they shall come out against thee one way, and flee before thee seven ways.
8. The LORD shall command the blessing upon thee in thy storehouses, and in all that thou settest thine hand unto; and he shall bless thee in the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee.
9. The LORD shall establish thee an holy people unto himself, as he hath sworn unto thee, if thou shalt keep the commandments of the LORD thy God, and walk in his ways.
10. And all people of the earth shall see that thou art called by the name of the LORD; and they shall be afraid of thee.
11. And the LORD shall make thee plenteous in goods, in the fruit of thy body, and in the fruit of thy cattle, and in the fruit of thy ground, in the land which the LORD sware unto thy fathers to give thee.
12. The LORD shall open unto thee his good treasure, the heaven to give the rain unto thy land in his season, and to bless all the work of thine hand: and thou shalt lend unto many nations, and thou shalt not borrow.
13. And the LORD shall make thee the head, and not the tail; and thou shalt be above only, and thou shalt not be beneath; if that thou hearken unto the commandments of the LORD thy God, which I command thee this day, to observe and to do them:
14. And thou shalt not go aside from any of the words which I command thee this day, to the right hand, or to the left, to go after other gods to serve them.

It would seem odd that God would bless His servants better than His children. Indeed, deliverance is called the children's bread. A women, a Canaanite (not even Jewish):

Matthew 15:22-28 KJV
22. And, behold, a woman of Canaan came out of the same coasts, and cried unto him, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, thou Son of David; my daughter is grievously vexed with a devil.
23. But he answered her not a word. And his disciples came and besought him, saying, Send her away; for she crieth after us.
24. But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
25. Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me.
26. But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it to dogs.
27. And she said, Truth, Lord: yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters' table.
28. Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great is thy faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole from that very hour.

It was her looking beyond the limitations that He called faith. And she received the children's bread in reward. So even if one demands that these promises only belong to the Jews, we can see that Jesus made them good, even to a despised and cursed Canaanite who had faith. We should be encouraged so much more!

 

[Guojing]

Paul uses the plural in:

2 Corinthians 1:20 KJV
20. For all the promises of God in him are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us.

He preached all the promises, not just one.

If he really meant that, then Genesis 15:5 and Matthew 19:28 are meant for us to claim as well.

But all of us know we cannot claim those, so for sure that popular Word of Faith teaching about that verse cannot be every single promise in scripture.

 

[Guojing]

It would seem odd that God would bless His servants better than His children. Indeed, deliverance is called the children's bread. A women, a Canaanite (not even Jewish):

Matthew 15:22-28 KJV
22. And, behold, a woman of Canaan came out of the same coasts, and cried unto him, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, thou Son of David; my daughter is grievously vexed with a devil.
23. But he answered her not a word. And his disciples came and besought him, saying, Send her away; for she crieth after us.
24. But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
25. Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me.
26. But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it to dogs.
27. And she said, Truth, Lord: yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters' table.
28. Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great is thy faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole from that very hour.

It was her looking beyond the limitations that He called faith. And she received the children's bread in reward. So even if one demands that these promises only belong to the Jews, we can see that Jesus made them good, even to a despised and cursed Canaanite who had faith. We should be encouraged so much more!

Before Paul, Gentiles who blessed Israel will be blessed by Israel's God, that has always been the case after the nation was formed, as promised to Jacob in Genesis 28:13-15.

The counterexample was seen in Deuteronomy 23:3-4.

The Roman Centurion build Israel a synagogue, and the leaders appealed to Jesus for him (Luke 7:5). As for the Canaanite lady, she acknowledged herself as a gentile puppy who could be blessed with the overflow blessings that the children of Israel were having in Jesus's first coming to them. (Mark 7:29).

Both cases, Israel was honored, and Jesus could therefore bless them because they blessed Israel.

 

[Bobber]

We could go through the NT and present dozens of direct statements that declare healing is the will of God for every believer. If this is so, that is, if we remove God from the equation, then logically, it must be something else. Our goal should be to find the real reason. But in this discussion, to suggest God is the cause, then we are without hope. If God is against your being healed... then just settle into your sickbed and resign yourself to the inevitable.

And if one believes it's the will of God for them to stay afflicted then maybe they should stop seeing doctors or taking medicine. I mean why should they try to get out of the will of God?