Florida ‘effectively’ bans Advanced Placement Psychology course due to curriculum's discussion of gender and sexual orientation

[variant]

Kindly explain the difference, please.


Still wondering who Seth married.

-- A2SG, do you even know?

Azura. According to the Book of Jubilees, it was his younger sister Azura.

Seth - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Book of Jubilees - Wikipedia

Perhaps we should teach the non-canonical religious works instead of AP psychology.

 

[rjs330]

Seems like a good argument for states not censoring courses which will make the general public better informed on the subject.

Or maybe the general public understands that there are only two genders. After all the majority of transgenders people are teyi g to be the opposite gender. Male to female and female to male. Two genders. They are not going to get medical transitioning to be agender or gender fluid. Sex and and gender are the same thing. Gender roles are the same as sex roles. Gender identity is the same thing as sexual identity. Gender traits are the same thing as sex traits.

 

[Truth7t7]

Or maybe the general public understands that there are only two genders. After all the majority of transgenders people are teyi g to be the opposite gender. Male to female and female to male. Two genders. They are not going to get medical transitioning to be agender or gender fluid. Sex and and gender are the same thing. Gender roles are the same as sex roles. Gender identity is the same thing as sexual identity. Gender traits are the same thing as sex traits.

The liberals are trying to create a new status for protections and nothing more

 

[Pommer]

Or maybe the general public understands that there are only two genders. After all the majority of transgenders people are teyi g to be the opposite gender. Male to female and female to male. Two genders. They are not going to get medical transitioning to be agender or gender fluid. Sex and and gender are the same thing. Gender roles are the same as sex roles. Gender identity is the same thing as sexual identity. Gender traits are the same thing as sex traits.

You’re not in charge of public policy anywhere, right?

 

[rjs330]

Do you speak any foreign language? Many have gender as an integral part and it is NOT only based on sex. In most dogs have the male gender.

Heck even in English ships and cars are female in gender.

Yup. But that's a language identifier and not an gender identity of human beings. It wasn't until the word sex became short for sexual intercourse that the word gender was used instead to avoid vulgarity. But it still referred to the biological sex of a person. It wasn't until the 20th century that gender became an identity. It waa was used to replace sex roles with gender roles which are the same thing.

Gender Identity as used today was invented out of nothing. Primarily by mental ill pedophile who experimented on children and his experiment failed to produce the results he proclaimed.

I totally get it when we use gender to describe how a person feels about themselves. It sounds much better than sex. And transgender sounds better that transsexual.

Bottom line there was no scientific discovery of gender beyond sex. Like it's anything beyond a mental health issue. You might as well call it sexual identity. It's the same thing.

How does this fit the topic. Easily banning something that has no scientific evidence of existence of reality other than a mental health issue is okay by me. Now if they want to put a caveat to it since it's a psychological course and not a physical medicine course and state flatly that those who identify as anything other than their biological sex had a mental health issue and needs mental health treatment then I'd be okay with that. Especially if those people want to transition to the opposite sex.

Those that don't wish to do so still could use some mental health help, but they are not really severe enough to really need it as they can exist in the world and be okay for the most part.

 

[rjs330]

The liberals are trying to create a new status for protections and nothing more

No need for that. Because what happens is it quickly becomes an over reach into everyone. I don't recall, now I may be wrong, but I don't recall creating status protections for all other mental health issues. Identity should not be a protected class. That's just silly.

 

[rjs330]

Refute the evidence, if you want to, I'm willing to listen. But to do that, you have to address it.

But, if all you're going to do is simply disregard the evidence or ignore it, because it doesn't fit with the preconceived opinions you've already formed, that's not much of an argument.

I did, using your own links. Your own links state they have provided evidence of it. I quoted them. It sounds like you may have difficulty with that. None of your links provide evidence that gender beyond biological sex exists scientifically. Like it's some sort of normal thing. It could easily be called personality. Or a personality disorder if it's bad enough that the person feels they are the opposite sex.

Now if you want to state that gender identity is a mental health disorder and that exists I think we can prove that. Especially if the person struggles and wants to alter their body with medical transitioning. I think that's very obvious and has been a recognized mental health issue for a long time.

Do you believe gender identity is a mental health disorder?

And yet, there is evidence to support the idea that gender identity is real, and not just a figment of anyone's imagination.

No their isn't. Your links do not provide that evidence. I even quoted them for you.

And you haven't proven one can't.

You offered your own, personal preconceived opinions on the subject, a subject about which you have admitted you have no actual experience of.

I don't need to. Science has already proven what a biological man and a biological woman is. It's been that way for a long time. Why even archaeologists can look at your bones and say if you were a man or a woman. You don't expect me to contradict biology do you?

And yet, for some people, it does not.

Yes it does. Your sex determines if you are male or female. Not your feelings.

Nope. Which is why I didn't say that.

Yes you did. When you claim traits indicate gender that's performative. Traits are performative.

You asked: "How does a biological male come to the conclusion he is really a female?"

I presented the actual words of a real biological male who came to the conclusion he was a female. And others who came to similar conclusions about their own gender.

That's the best answer I can give you.

All they said was they felt like they were the opposite sex. How does a man know what a woman feels like? How does a woman know what a man feels like?

I have no idea what a woman feels.like because I am a man.

You can claim whatever you like, it's not up to me to say you're wrong.

But, while your gender is your own concern and none of mine, your skin color is what it is, regardless. That's why skin color and identity aren't the same thing....as I've said several times already.

You said identity was subjective. Now you are claiming it's not. You are claiming that my race is not subjective but based upon a biological fact. Why isn't gender based in a biological reality? Why is gender the only identity that is not based on facts but in feelings?

We do? Really? How does that work, exactly?

Do you have to prove to your wife that your feelings of love for her are a fact? Do you need to prove your feelings about God before you can accept whether or not God is real? Do you need to prove your feelings about politics before you cast a vote?

Love. Religion. Political beliefs. All subjective things, all very real to each and every one of us. And there exists not one single shred of factual proof for any of them.

Yes as a matter of fact I do have to prove my love for her. I can tell her I love her but unless my actions match my words, my words are irrelevant .

You are missing the point completely. Feelings are real. But feelings are not reality. I might feel scared of the monster in my closet. My feeling is real, but it's not based in reality. So claiming you feel something doesn't mean it's based on anything in reality. It might or might not be. You have to look at the circumstances. I'm might be sad because my dog died. That's a legitimate feeling based upon the circumstances of reality.

Gender is not based in the circumstances of reality. You are not a woman just because you feel like one. Your biology directly contradicts your feelings. Thus you might feel you are a woman l, but that doesn't make you woman in reality. Because you are not a woman.

What is a woman?

Actually, an article from the Guardian.

My error. I did read it. As opposed to you who has decided to be closed minded and not look at anything I've provided.

Well, partially, it seems. You got to the disclaimer bits, where they say they haven't definitively proven something (a thing no scientist claims), but if you read the stuff about hormones and their effect on brain chemistry, well, you didn't address any of it.

I don't need to they did it themselves. Said it doesn't prove anything about gender. It's only a speculation

She's entitled to her opinion.

You didn't listen did you. You can't point out where she's wrong like I did using your own articles.

You said there is no scientific evidence. I presented scientific evidence. You then dismiss it because it isn't absolute, definitive proof, even though I never claimed it was.

Moving the goalposts is a logical fallacy, dude.

You want a real, honest discussion? I'm game.

You first.

There isn't any evidence. The articles state there isn't any. I quoted them for you. I also gave you options of looking at the other side if the issue and you refused to.

It sounds to me that you aren't really interested in a real conversation. When you admit the articles aren't really providing evidence but mere speculation then we can start with a real conversation. Speculation isn't evidence even if presented in an scientific article. Never has been.

So when you are ready for a real conversation let me know.

 

[rjs330]

You’re not in charge of public policy anywhere, right?

No but I do vote for those that are. And at least in half the states we don't support this. Which is good. Yes people don't want transgender people bullied or assaulted. But we also dont want to be forced to share locker rooms with people of the opposite sex that still look like and have the body parts of the opposite sex. We also don't want to be forced to use words that are false. And we don't want our kids indoctrinated with false ideology. Kids have enough struggles as it it coming to grips and discovering who they are and what they want to be without confusing them about their sex.

 

[Truth7t7]

You’re not in charge of public policy anywhere, right?

Gods Holy words preside over public policy whether you believe it or not, God made Adam and Eve, Male and Female

Genesis 1:27KJV
27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

 

[A2SG]

I did, using your own links. Your own links state they have provided evidence of it.

Yup. Evidence. Not absolute, definitive proof, but evidence. Which you haven't addressed at all.

I quoted them.

You quoted the disclaimers. You did not address the evidence.

Where did you discuss the effect of testosterone on fetal development and brain chemistry?

It sounds like you may have difficulty with that. None of your links provide evidence that gender beyond biological sex exists scientifically. Like it's some sort of normal thing. It could easily be called personality. Or a personality disorder if it's bad enough that the person feels they are the opposite sex.

Evidence does exist for a biological component for gender identity not conforming with genitalia. I provided some, and I can provide more:

Brain Sex in Transgender Women Is Shifted towards Gender Identity

Transgender brains are more like their desired gender from an early age

It isn't conclusive, and it isn't absolute, rock-solid proof...but that's not how science works. Research is ongoing, and more is discovered all the time. But if you want to contend that no evidence exists, you have to address the evidence that does exist. All you've done so far is ignore it or pretend it doesn't exist because it doesn't match your preconceived opinions on the matter.

There are more things on heaven and earth, Horatio, that are dreamt of in your philosophy.

But, all that aside, I've maintained all along that gender identity is a subjective thing. You can call it a disorder if you like, but for people who feel their gender identity doesn't match their genitalia, it's very real and, for them, undeniable. For you to deny it simply shows you haven't experienced this, and are unable to, or unwilling to, accept that other people have different experiences than you have, Horatio.

Now if you want to state that gender identity is a mental health disorder and that exists I think we can prove that. Especially if the person struggles and wants to alter their body with medical transitioning. I think that's very obvious and has been a recognized mental health issue for a long time.

Do you believe gender identity is a mental health disorder?

No. I will agree that gender dysphoria can be classified as a disorder, and should be treated and taken seriously. But we all have a gender identity, whether or not it matches our genitalia.

No their isn't. Your links do not provide that evidence. I even quoted them for you.

Again, evidence was provided. What you're expecting is rock solid, definitive proof....and science doesn't provide that for anything.

I don't need to. Science has already proven what a biological man and a biological woman is. It's been that way for a long time. Why even archaeologists can look at your bones and say if you were a man or a woman. You don't expect me to contradict biology do you?

No one's arguing about biology, dude. Gender identity isn't about biology....even if there is evidence to suggest a biological component for it.

Yes it does. Your sex determines if you are male or female. Not your feelings.

And sometimes, for some people, their identity doesn't match their genitalia. You can ignore their feelings if you like, but they can't.

Which only shows that you're not them...and you're not willing to consider that they may not be lying about their identity.

Yes you did. When you claim traits indicate gender that's performative. Traits are performative.

I never said traits indicate gender, a fact that will be evident in your next post when you fail to quote me saying that.

All they said was they felt like they were the opposite sex. How does a man know what a woman feels like? How does a woman know what a man feels like?

How indeed.

Ask them.

Oh wait, I gave you examples of people, in their own words, describing how they came to feel the way they do. You dismissed it.

I have no idea what a woman feels.like because I am a man.

So you reject the idea that someone else might.

You said identity was subjective.

Yup.

Now you are claiming it's not.

Nope. Never did.

You are claiming that my race is not subjective but based upon a biological fact. Why isn't gender based in a biological reality?

Because it's part of your identity, which is subjective.

The evidence for a biological component isn't conclusive, so we can't definitively state how much biology contributes to it, though it does seem to play a role. We'll probably learn more as research progresses.

Why is gender the only identity that is not based on facts but in feelings?

It's far from the only part of your identity that's subjective. Most parts of it are. Your religion or spiritual beliefs, for example, or your political ideologies; your emotional attachments to people and other things, your ideas about justice, beauty or other things you hold dear.

Most of these things are part of who you are, and are very deeply held, more than just as a passing emotion.

Yes as a matter of fact I do have to prove my love for her. I can tell her I love her but unless my actions match my words, my words are irrelevant .

But that's not definitive, absolute proof. People lie all the time. As you continue to contend, evidence doesn't exist if it isn't conclusive, definitive proof.

Put simply, you cannot provide factual, objective proof of your love. Nor can you provide it for your religion or your political ideologies. They are part of your identity, not objectively demonstrable.

You are missing the point completely. Feelings are real. But feelings are not reality. I might feel scared of the monster in my closet. My feeling is real, but it's not based in reality. So claiming you feel something doesn't mean it's based on anything in reality. It might or might not be. You have to look at the circumstances. I'm might be sad because my dog died. That's a legitimate feeling based upon the circumstances of reality.

So your love for your wife isn't real? Your religion isn't real? Your political ideology isn't real?

I disagree.

Gender is not based in the circumstances of reality. You are not a woman just because you feel like one. Your biology directly contradicts your feelings. Thus you might feel you are a woman l, but that doesn't make you woman in reality. Because you are not a woman.

This is how you view the world, because this is how you feel.

Other people have had different experiences. Just because you don't understand them, that doesn't make them wrong.

It's like if I say I'm from Massachusetts, all my neighbors live in Massachusetts, everyone I meet on the street is in Massachusetts. So anyone who claims to be living in Nebraska isn't real, because my experience doesn't include living in Nebraska.

Does that make sense?

What is a woman?

Ask your wife. Or ask Caitlyn Jenner, if you prefer.

My error. I did read it. As opposed to you who has decided to be closed minded and not look at anything I've provided.

I'll admit I didn't watch the hour long video you provided. I started to, but it didn't seem relevant, just a different opinion on the matter that didn't provide any insight to the ones I provided.

I don't need to they did it themselves. Said it doesn't prove anything about gender. It's only a speculation.

You asked how someone came to feel that their gender identity didn't match their genitalia. I provided it. I don't know what more you need.

Absolute, rock-solid proof, it seems. That, no one can provide. Not even science.

You didn't listen did you. You can't point out where she's wrong like I did using your own articles.

I never claimed she was wrong. Are you claiming the people who provided their stories are wrong?

Based on what, exactly?

There isn't any evidence. The articles state there isn't any.

The articles I provided did give evidence. You expected rock-solid, definitive proof, but that isn't the same thing. You moved the goalposts, and I'm not allowing that fallacy.

I quoted them for you. I also gave you options of looking at the other side if the issue and you refused to.

I'm willing to listen if you want to refute the science. You haven't addressed the science at all. You just denied it.

It sounds to me that you aren't really interested in a real conversation. When you admit the articles aren't really providing evidence but mere speculation then we can start with a real conversation. Speculation isn't evidence even if presented in an scientific article. Never has been.

So when you are ready for a real conversation let me know.

I've been ready all along.

You want to discuss science? Go ahead. Address the science. But I can't take you seriously if you claim there isn't any scientific evidence when I provide it, and you simply dismiss it because it isn't conclusive, definitive proof. That isn't how science works.

All along, I've contended that gender identity is subjective. You dismiss this very idea, because it doesn't coincide with your own, personal experiences. You ignore people who tell you, in their own words, how they feel. You claim they're lying, or mistaken, or delusional. Or suffering from a mental disorder.

But...what if they're not? What if they really do feel how they say they feel? What does that say about you, if you're unwilling to accept that people could be going through something that you have not gone through yourself?

Doesn't compassion count for anything?

And this is why I feel banning even the very discussion of this topic is so problematic and even dangerous.

-- A2SG, just so we can veer this back to being on topic......

 

[rjs330]

Yup. Evidence. Not absolute, definitive proof, but evidence. Which you haven't addressed at all.

Yup no evidence either. Just speculation. You own links say it.

You quoted the disclaimers. You did not address the evidence.

Where did you discuss the effect of testosterone on fetal development and brain chemistry?

Yup the disclaimers indicate there isn't enough evidence to determine that that transgender people are that way due to male or female hormones during development.

I'm not going to keep pointing this out to you. You are ignoring what your own articles say. There's no point in keeping pointing it out.

Because it's part of your identity, which is subjective.

The evidence for a biological component isn't conclusive, so we can't definitively state how much biology contributes to it, though it does seem to play a role. We'll probably learn more as research progresses.

So only gender identity is subjective? Any other identity I have has to be supported by something?

Oh now you finally state it's not conclusive. Now we are getting somewhere.

But that's not definitive, absolute proof. People lie all the time. As you continue to contend, evidence doesn't exist if it isn't conclusive, definitive proof.

Put simply, you cannot provide factual, objective proof of your love. Nor can you provide it for your religion or your political ideologies. They are part of your identity, not objectively demonstrable.

Yes people lie all the time or they might be mistaken.

There is no evidence that gender exists beyond the binary sex. None. As your articles state. Transgender people may believe they are the opposite sex, but we know that they can't be because we have a biological reality to go by. We can easily conclude they are either mistaken for some reason or mentally ill for another.

I honestly don't think they are lying.

Evidence does exist for a biological component for gender identity not conforming with genitalia. I provided some, and I can provide more:

Sorry you already provided one of those. The other doesn't include the study. It doesn't give any information on the study at all. We have no idea if the study is goodz it's limitations or if the conclusion in the article is accurate. Thus it's not a valid article. It's just says something with no evidence.

But, all that aside, I've maintained all along that gender identity is a subjective thing. You can call it a disorder if you like, but for people who feel their gender identity doesn't match their genitalia, it's very real and, for them, undeniable. For you to deny it simply shows you haven't experienced this, and are unable to, or unwilling to, accept that other people have different experiences than you have, Horatio.

I have never ever denied it. Not once. People obviously suffer from the mental health disorder or they are mistaken and just think they are when there are other issues instead.
For those who do have the mental health disorder they really believe it. Just like some people believe they are a tiger or a dog or a re tailed hawk. It doesn't mean they are.

What I'm getting at is that due to the fact it's not real despite their feelings. So we shouldn't be treating a mental health disorder by altering the physical body especially in children.

And we certainly shouldn't altering society to affirm a mental health disorder.

So your love for your wife isn't real? Your religion isn't real? Your political ideology isn't real?

I disagree.

Man you missed the point again.

It's like if I say I'm from Massachusetts, all my neighbors live in Massachusetts, everyone I meet on the street is in Massachusetts. So anyone who claims to be living in Nebraska isn't real, because my experience doesn't include living in Nebraska.

Does that make sense?

Nope. It's more like I live in Nebraska all my friends live in Nebraska. Everyone I meet lives in Nebraska, but I claim to live in Massachusetts and I want everyone around me to affirm that I live in Massachusetts.

That's what transgenderism does.

I'll admit I didn't watch the hour long video you provided. I started to, but it didn't seem relevant, just a different opinion on the matter that didn't provide any insight to the ones I provided.

You should have watched.

never claimed she was wrong. Are you claiming the people who provided their stories are wrong?

Nope. Their belief is wrong. Not the story.

The articles I provided did give evidence.

No they didn't. They all said there wasn't any. Just speculation.

I'm willing to listen if you want to refute the science. You haven't addressed the science at all. You just denied it.

I already did using your own articles. There isn't any science that supports the validity of gender.

Let me be as clear as I can be.

A person can believe they are the opposite sex. I've got no issues with that. However there is NO EVIDENCE that they actually are.
We call that a mental health disorder. Because while the feeling might be real it is not based upon reality in any way. Because a man cannot know what a female feels like. They have no idea. They just say they do.

And affirmative care is exactly the opposite of what we should be doing. We shouldn't be affirming something that is not real. Especially with public policy and with children. Adults? If adults want to medically transition I have no issues with it. Because they are adults and can do what they want and deal with the consequences of their decisions like the rest of us do. Which includes not demanding that society affirm them for their false belief by establishing policies and law.

I'm willing to listen if you want to refute the science. You haven't addressed the science at all. You just denied it.

I don't need to your own articles did that for me and I quoted them.

There is no evidence that a man is really a woman inside. Period. The articles admit it.

And yes compassion is part of the equation.

That's precisely why we shouldn't be transing kids. And precisely why this should be viewed for all people as a mental health disorder. Dont you have deep compassion and empathy for those who are mentally ill? I know I do.
What about compassion for the detransitioners? Those that were told they were the opposite sex and the transition didn't help at all? This is precisely why we should be asking adults to undergo deep long term psychological therapy before they get any surgeries to alter their bodies.

That way we've done all we can to prevent them from making a mistake. I don't think there ought to be a law or anything. I just wish the medical community would step up.

Laws should be kept for juveniles who have no clue to what they are doing.

 

[Truth7t7]

Yup no evidence either. Just speculation. You own links say it.

Yup the disclaimers indicate there isn't enough evidence to determine that that transgender people are that way due to male or female hormones during development.

I'm not going to keep pointing this out to you. You are ignoring what your own articles say. There's no point in keeping pointing it out.

So only gender identity is subjective? Any other identity I have has to be supported by something?

Oh now you finally state it's not conclusive. Now we are getting somewhere.

Yes people lie all the time or they might be mistaken.

There is no evidence that gender exists beyond the binary sex. None. As your articles state. Transgender people may believe they are the opposite sex, but we know that they can't be because we have a biological reality to go by. We can easily conclude they are either mistaken for some reason or mentally ill for another.

I honestly don't think they are lying.

Sorry you already provided one of those. The other doesn't include the study. It doesn't give any information on the study at all. We have no idea if the study is goodz it's limitations or if the conclusion in the article is accurate. Thus it's not a valid article. It's just says something with no evidence.

I have never ever denied it. Not once. People obviously suffer from the mental health disorder or they are mistaken and just think they are when there are other issues instead.
For those who do have the mental health disorder they really believe it. Just like some people believe they are a tiger or a dog or a re tailed hawk. It doesn't mean they are.

What I'm getting at is that due to the fact it's not real despite their feelings. So we shouldn't be treating a mental health disorder by altering the physical body especially in children.

And we certainly shouldn't altering society to affirm a mental health disorder.



Man you missed the point again.

Nope. It's more like I live in Nebraska all my friends live in Nebraska. Everyone I meet lives in Nebraska, but I claim to live in Massachusetts and I want everyone around me to affirm that I live in Massachusetts.

That's what transgenderism does.

You should have watched.

Nope. Their belief is wrong. Not the story.

No they didn't. They all said there wasn't any. Just speculation.

I already did using your own articles. There isn't any science that supports the validity of gender.

Let me be as clear as I can be.

A person can believe they are the opposite sex. I've got no issues with that. However there is NO EVIDENCE that they actually are.
We call that a mental health disorder. Because while the feeling might be real it is not based upon reality in any way. Because a man cannot know what a female feels like. They have no idea. They just say they do.

And affirmative care is exactly the opposite of what we should be doing. We shouldn't be affirming something that is not real. Especially with public policy and with children. Adults? If adults want to medically transition I have no issues with it. Because they are adults and can do what they want and deal with the consequences of their decisions like the rest of us do. Which includes not demanding that society affirm them for their false belief by establishing policies and law.

I don't need to your own articles did that for me and I quoted them.

There is no evidence that a man is really a woman inside. Period. The articles admit it.

And yes compassion is part of the equation.

That's precisely why we shouldn't be transing kids. And precisely why this should be viewed for all people as a mental health disorder. Dont you have deep compassion and empathy for those who are mentally ill? I know I do.
What about compassion for the detransitioners? Those that were told they were the opposite sex and the transition didn't help at all? This is precisely why we should be asking adults to undergo deep long term psychological therapy before they get any surgeries to alter their bodies.

That way we've done all we can to prevent them from making a mistake. I don't think there ought to be a law or anything. I just wish the medical community would step up.

Laws should be kept for juveniles who have no clue to what they are doing.

The liberals are trying to create a new protected class in society, based upon "Gender"

Of course we now there are only two, Male & Female

 

[A2SG]

Yup no evidence either. Just speculation. You own links say it.

Yup the disclaimers indicate there isn't enough evidence to determine that that transgender people are that way due to male or female hormones during development.

Once again, no one claimed there was definitive proof of a biological component to gender identity. But the evidence suggests there might be.

You're assuming a lack of definitive proof is the same thing as no evidence whatsoever, and that simply isn't the case.

I'm not going to keep pointing this out to you. You are ignoring what your own articles say. There's no point in keeping pointing it out.

Just as you keep ignoring me when I point out how science works. Science doesn't make claims about definitive proof, hypotheses are checked and the evidence is investigated and tested, retested, and tested again. If it holds up enough times, it's upgraded to a theory....which is always subject to revision if future research suggests a different theory.

As I've said before, I never claimed gender identity was biological. I've always maintained that it's subjective. I provided scientific evidence that suggests a biological component, only to show there is more than just a "feeling" behind the idea that gender identity and genitalia don't always match, and that those who do feel this disconnect are not imagining things.

You, of course, ignore all of that, because it doesn't fit within your own personal experience.

So only gender identity is subjective? Any other identity I have has to be supported by something?

Most of your identity, whether regarding your gender or anything else, is subjective; and none of it has to be supported beyond what you require it to be.

Oh now you finally state it's not conclusive. Now we are getting somewhere.

I've never said otherwise. Note the several times I've stated that science doesn't work like that.

Yes people lie all the time or they might be mistaken.

Sure. And sometimes, they don't.

There is no evidence that gender exists beyond the binary sex.

Apart from the stuff you're ignoring, that is.

None. As your articles state.

None of them say that gender identity is only governed by genitalia. Not a single one.

A fact that will be evident in your next post when you fail to quote them saying that.

Transgender people may believe they are the opposite sex, but we know that they can't be because we have a biological reality to go by. We can easily conclude they are either mistaken for some reason or mentally ill for another.

Or maybe they have a different experience of gender identity that you do, Horatio.

I honestly don't think they are lying.

That's progress, I guess. Of a sort.

Sorry you already provided one of those. The other doesn't include the study. It doesn't give any information on the study at all. We have no idea if the study is goodz it's limitations or if the conclusion in the article is accurate. Thus it's not a valid article. It's just says something with no evidence.

Once again, evidence isn't definitive proof. That isn't how science works.

I have never ever denied it. Not once. People obviously suffer from the mental health disorder or they are mistaken and just think they are when there are other issues instead.
For those who do have the mental health disorder they really believe it. Just like some people believe they are a tiger or a dog or a re tailed hawk. It doesn't mean they are.

I can prove a human being isn't a tiger, or a dog, or a hawk. Those things are objectively provable.

You can't prove someone's gender identity. Thus, you have no basis for saying they're wrong when they claim their gender doesn't match their genitalia.

What I'm getting at is that due to the fact it's not real despite their feelings. So we shouldn't be treating a mental health disorder by altering the physical body

Why not? If they choose to undergo a perfectly legal, elective medical procedure, the outcome of which makes them happier, under what legal basis do you claim they should be denied this choice?

especially in children.

Who brought up children? I never even mentioned them.

And we certainly shouldn't altering society to affirm a mental health disorder.

Why not? We've done it before. Epilepsy was once believed to be insanity, those who suffered from it institutionalized and even lobotomized. Now, we accept it as a treatable disorder. Same for other mental health issues like schizophrenia and bipolar disorder.

Society is altered all the time.

Man you missed the point again.

Not at all. I just don't hold to your belief that identity is the equivalent of a minor feeling. It's something deeper for all of us.

Nope. It's more like I live in Nebraska all my friends live in Nebraska. Everyone I meet lives in Nebraska, but I claim to live in Massachusetts and I want everyone around me to affirm that I live in Massachusetts.

Can you prove you live in Nebraska? If so, then it's not the same thing.

That was kind of my point.

That's what transgenderism does.

That's what it means to you....who doesn't have the same experiences as a transgender person does.

You should have watched.

How would that person's opinion change the experiences of the people in the Guardian artlcle?

Nope. Their belief is wrong. Not the story.

Try saying someone's belief in god is wrong, see what happens.

No they didn't. They all said there wasn't any. Just speculation.

Known in scientific circles as a hypothesis. Which is tested. And, during those tests, a possible link is suggested, which leads to more research.

This is how science works.

I already did using your own articles. There isn't any science that supports the validity of gender.

Let me see...one one hand, we have biologists who study brain chemistry and the effects of hormones like testosterone who see a possible link between them and gender identity, and psychologists who treat patients with gender dysphoria who see the effects both before and after gender reassignment treatments, who believe that gender identity is not always determined by genitalia. On the other hand, we have you, who hasn't studied any of this and, based on your own admitted lack of experience in this area, has the preconceived opinion that it is, and cannot be otherwise.

I wonder, whose view do I believe has more validity?

Let me be as clear as I can be.

A person can believe they are the opposite sex. I've got no issues with that. However there is NO EVIDENCE that they actually are.

Since that idea is based on their identity, not their genitalia, what evidence do you require? If someone says they believe in god, what evidence do you require before you accept that they actually do?

We call that a mental health disorder. Because while the feeling might be real it is not based upon reality in any way. Because a man cannot know what a female feels like. They have no idea. They just say they do.

YOU have no idea how that feels. Others say they do.

And affirmative care is exactly the opposite of what we should be doing. We shouldn't be affirming something that is not real. Especially with public policy and with children. Adults? If adults want to medically transition I have no issues with it. Because they are adults and can do what they want and deal with the consequences of their decisions like the rest of us do. Which includes not demanding that society affirm them for their false belief by establishing policies and law.

Prove their identity is false. If you can do that, you'll have a basis for legally preventing them from making the claim. But if you can't, well, they're just as much a part of society as you are, and they have every right to make any demand they wish to.

And, once again, I've never mentioned children in any of this.

I don't need to your own articles did that for me and I quoted them.

Without addressing the research done in the field at all.

There is no evidence that a man is really a woman inside. Period. The articles admit it.

Which you can demonstrate definitively by quoting them saying exactly that.

And yes compassion is part of the equation.

That's precisely why we shouldn't be transing kids.

Why do you keep bringing up children? I've never said a word about children.

And precisely why this should be viewed for all people as a mental health disorder. Dont you have deep compassion and empathy for those who are mentally ill?

Of course. They should be treated.

And an effective treatment for gender dysphoria is affirmation of their gender identity, up to and possibly including reassignment treatment.

know I do.
What about compassion for the detransitioners? Those that were told they were the opposite sex and the transition didn't help at all?

I'd have to say that someone who is told what their gender is, as opposed to those who claim it themselves, probably won't be helped by the same treatment as for gender dysphoria. It doesn't sound like they actually have gender dysphoria.

This is precisely why we should be asking adults to undergo deep long term psychological therapy before they get any surgeries to alter their bodies.

And that's the normal course of treatment for gender affirming care.

That way we've done all we can to prevent them from making a mistake. I don't think there ought to be a law or anything. I just wish the medical community would step up.

It has. Here's what the Association of American Medical Colleges says on the subject.

Laws should be kept for juveniles who have no clue to what they are doing.

Wanna know what the American Academy of Pediatrics has to say on the subject? They've issued a policy statement.

If you have a problem with their policy on the matter, I suggest you take it up with them.

I think you'll find, if you check, that most medical professionals who deal with patients in this area agree that gender identity isn't automatically and incontrovertibly governed by genitalia.

-- A2SG, despite your preconceived opinion on the matter.....

 

[rjs330]

Once again, no one claimed there was definitive proof of a biological component to gender identity. But the evidence suggests there might be.

You're assuming a lack of definitive proof is the same thing as no evidence whatsoever, and that simply isn't the case.

I never said we need definitive proof. And you just claimed there is evidence. I've already showed you from your own articles and research there isn't any. There is no way to state that gender identity, the feeling that you are a woman when you are a man actually means you are a woman. Because no one knows what a woman feels like.

We know what a woman is because we have biology. And please stop the nonsense about genitalia. Do you have some sort of belief that genitalia alone determines if you are a man or woman? The only difference between men and women are the genitals?

Just as you keep ignoring me when I point out how science works. Science doesn't make claims about definitive proof, hypotheses are checked and the evidence is investigated and tested, retested, and tested again. If it holds up enough times, it's upgraded to a theory....which is always subject to revision if future research suggests a different theory.

Don't talk down to me. I know good and well how science works. And the science on this subject has no evidence. We don't need definitive proof. The evidence in this case isn't there. There is still only speculation not even a real theory because they haven't been able to show it. In reality they have no idea how a man can feel like a woman. There is no way to test that and quantify it. What they are looking for is a biological trait and they haven't found it.

I didn't look at your bio, but I'm guessing you are a man. Tell me, what does a man feel like?

Most of your identity, whether regarding your gender or anything else, is subjective; and none of it has to be supported beyond what you require it to be.

Please explain how any other identity I might have is subjective and not supported by anything other than my feelings.

YOU have no idea how that feels. Others say they do.

That doesn't mean they do. People can say anything. You have to prove they actually know what a woman feels like. And neither you nor science can explain that.

Who brought up children? I never even mentioned them.

So, what about children. Should they be allowed to medically transition?

their identity is false. If you can do that, you'll have a basis for legally preventing them from making the claim. But if you can't, well, they're just as much a part of society as you are, and they have every right to make any demand they wish to.

And, once again, I've never mentioned children in any of this.

I've already done that. Their biology proves it's false.

And an effective treatment for gender dysphoria is affirmation of their gender identity, up to and possibly including reassignment treatment.

Another statement there is no evidence for.

have to say that someone who is told what their gender is, as opposed to those who claim it themselves, probably won't be helped by the same treatment as for gender dysphoria. It doesn't sound like they actually have gender dysphoria.

Now you are diagnosing them? How do you know they weren't diagnosed with it? If you listen to their stories they believed they had it and were diagnosed with it. Then after they realized that wasnt the problem. You should listen to their stories.

Let me see...one one hand, we have biologists who study brain chemistry and the effects of hormones like testosterone who see a possible link between them and gender identity, and psychologists who treat patients with gender dysphoria who see the effects both before and after gender reassignment treatments, who believe that gender identity is not always determined by genitalia. On the other hand, we have you, who hasn't studied any of this and, based on your own admitted lack of experience in this area, has the preconceived opinion that it is, and cannot be otherwise.

I wonder, whose view do I believe has more validity?

Oh please, you think I made this up? You know I'm not the only person that knows this. I gave you one and you refused to listen. I also provided a link to the Sweden turn around on this and you didn't look at that either. Here's a very good British Medical Journal article on the lack of evidence. And some others.

Gender dysphoria in young people is rising—and so is professional disagreement

More children and adolescents are identifying as transgender and are being offered medical treatment, especially in the US—but some providers and European authorities are urging caution because of a lack of strong evidence. Jennifer Block reports Last October the American Academy of Pediatrics...

www.bmj.com

Denmark Joins the List of Countries That Have Sharply Restricted Youth Gender Transitions

A major medical journal Ugeskrift for Læger, the Journal of the Danish Medical Association, confirmed that there has been a marked shift in the country’s approach to caring for youth with gender dysphoria. Most youth referred to the centralized gender clinic no longer get a prescription for...

segm.org

And you mentioned the AAP. Are you aware that the AAP is funded very well by big pharma? Did you know their transgender care policy was written by one person? The evidence received NO SYSTEMATIC review. That members have been trying to get one? Here's the story behind it.

Oh yes I have an aweful lot of countries who have realized that transition studies are very poor and do not provide the evidence as claimed.

I’m a Pediatrician. How Transgender Ideology Has Infiltrated My Field and Produced Large-Scale Child Abuse.

Transgender ideology is intruding into the lives of the most innocent among us, and with the apparent growing support of the medical community.

www.dailysignal.com

Why not? We've done it before. Epilepsy was once believed to be insanity, those who suffered from it institutionalized and even lobotomized. Now, we accept it as a treatable disorder. Same for other mental health issues like schizophrenia and bipolar disorder.

Society is altered all the time.

No it's not. Medicine is altered. How we treat people is altered, but society as a whole is not altered in order to make the mentally struggling person fell well about themselves.

This gender disorder is the only one that depends on everyone else in society to affirm them in order for the person to get well. We don't have alter our speech, our schools, our locker rooms our sororities, our sporting events for people who are bi-,polar or schizophrenic in order for them to get ell.

think you'll find, if you check, that most medical professionals who deal with patients in this area agree that gender identity isn't automatically and incontrovertibly governed by genitalia.

Nobody thinks this. If you think that how people define manhood or woman hood solely by their genitals neither you nor they know anything about biology.

I've said, maybe you missed it, but I have never dated that adults should not be allowed to transition if they want to. I've stated over and over that they can. However if they do, they must deal with the consequences of that decision, because it's voluntary, that they don't demand that society suffer consequences for that decision. They haven't a right to demand society change in order for them to feel better based upon a voluntary choice. If a man wants to wear a dress and get breast implants and still have a beard he doesn't get to demand that everyone call him she and participate in women's sports and get naked in women's locker rooms. Just so he can feel better.

But kids should not be transitioned at all. Do you believe they should?

 

[A2SG]

I never said we need definitive proof. And you just claimed there is evidence.

And there is. It's not definitive, and research is ongoing, but there is enough there to indicate that those who feel their gender doesn't match their genitalia aren't just pretending.

I've already showed you from your own articles and research there isn't any. There is no way to state that gender identity, the feeling that you are a woman when you are a man actually means you are a woman. Because no one knows what a woman feels like.

Well, women certainly do. And some people born with male genitalia feel they do. Where is your evidence they're wrong?

We know what a woman is because we have biology. And please stop the nonsense about genitalia. Do you have some sort of belief that genitalia alone determines if you are a man or woman? The only difference between men and women are the genitals?

I've maintained throughout this discussion that it does not. Genitalia does denote the physical difference between male and female, but, as I've been saying continuously, that is not the only difference. This is why I keep bringing up gender identity.

Don't talk down to me. I know good and well how science works.

Then why do you keep saying there is no evidence when there is evidence? No one's claiming the evidence is definitive, no one says it answers every question about gender identity, nor does it prove anything conclusively. The evidence, hormonal effects on fetal development and brain chemistry for example, does indicate that gender identity may have causes that differ from the physical development of the reproductive system.

You have never even acknowledged that this research exists, let alone commented on it.

And the science on this subject has no evidence. We don't need definitive proof. The evidence in this case isn't there.

What do you think evidence is, exactly? I don't think that word means what you think it means, Vizzini.

There is still only speculation not even a real theory because they haven't been able to show it.

No one claimed it was a theory. At this point, it's little more than a hypothesis. But that doesn't make it nonexistent.

In reality they have no idea how a man can feel like a woman.

THEY may not know. But some people feel they do.

And how can you claim to know they're wrong? Where is your evidence for that? You have nothing more than your own admittedly limited person experience, on which you've based certain preconceived opinions.

There is no way to test that and quantify it. What they are looking for is a biological trait and they haven't found it.

They've found indications of a link. Enough to build further research on, at least.

I didn't look at your bio, but I'm guessing you are a man. Tell me, what does a man feel like?

I feel like me. That's the best answer I can give you.

Please explain how any other identity I might have is subjective and not supported by anything other than my feelings.

Sorry, I can't explain you to you. Only you can do that.

That's how subjective stuff works.

That doesn't mean they do. People can say anything. You have to prove they actually know what a woman feels like. And neither you nor science can explain that.

Why do they have to prove it? Who is requiring that?

So, what about children. Should they be allowed to medically transition?

Once again, I never brought them up.

I've already done that. Their biology proves it's false.

But trans people aren't talking about their genitalia. They're talking about their identity.

A2SG:
And an effective treatment for gender dysphoria is affirmation of their gender identity, up to and possibly including reassignment treatment.

Another statement there is no evidence for.

Medical professionals disagree with you.

Now you are diagnosing them?

Not even a little bit.

How do you know they weren't diagnosed with it?

I went by what you said: "Those that were told they were the opposite sex..."

If you listen to their stories they believed they had it and were diagnosed with it. Then after they realized that wasnt the problem. You should listen to their stories.

If someone says they're trans, I tend to accept it. But you described someone who is told they're trans, not someone who claimed it themselves.

As I keep saying, identity is subjective. No one else can tell you what your identity is.

Oh please, you think I made this up? You know I'm not the only person that knows this. I gave you one and you refused to listen. I also provided a link to the Sweden turn around on this and you didn't look at that either. Here's a very good British Medical Journal article on the lack of evidence. And some others.

Gender dysphoria in young people is rising—and so is professional disagreement

More children and adolescents are identifying as transgender and are being offered medical treatment, especially in the US—but some providers and European authorities are urging caution because of a lack of strong evidence. Jennifer Block reports Last October the American Academy of Pediatrics...

www.bmj.com

Denmark Joins the List of Countries That Have Sharply Restricted Youth Gender Transitions

A major medical journal Ugeskrift for Læger, the Journal of the Danish Medical Association, confirmed that there has been a marked shift in the country’s approach to caring for youth with gender dysphoria. Most youth referred to the centralized gender clinic no longer get a prescription for...

segm.org

And you mentioned the AAP. Are you aware that the AAP is funded very well by big pharma? Did you know their transgender care policy was written by one person? The evidence received NO SYSTEMATIC review. That members have been trying to get one? Here's the story behind it.

Oh yes I have an aweful lot of countries who have realized that transition studies are very poor and do not provide the evidence as claimed.

I’m a Pediatrician. How Transgender Ideology Has Infiltrated My Field and Produced Large-Scale Child Abuse.

Transgender ideology is intruding into the lives of the most innocent among us, and with the apparent growing support of the medical community.

www.dailysignal.com

Thank you. Give me a little time to review before I comment.

No it's not. Medicine is altered. How we treat people is altered, but society as a whole is not altered in order to make the mentally struggling person fell well about themselves.

Does society treat people with epilepsy differently today than they did fifty years ago, or more? How about schizophrenia or bipolar disorder?

Society has changed a lot in how it treats the mentally ill...among others.

This gender disorder is the only one that depends on everyone else in society to affirm them in order for the person to get well.

Hardly. We don't shame people for being "retarded" anymore, or simply call them the village idiot and leave them to beg on the street. The physically handicapped aren't just called "cripples" and ignored. We affirm the value of these people and the things they're dealing with too, you know.

We don't have alter our speech, our schools, our locker rooms our sororities, our sporting events for people who are bi-,polar or schizophrenic in order for them to get ell.

Sure we do. All the time. To prevent bullying, for one thing.

Nobody thinks this.

When you make statements like this: "We know what a woman is because we have biology." you seem to be. You seem to feel the only indicator for gender is biology, of which one's genitalia is the only apparent outward indicator.

If you think that how people define manhood or woman hood solely by their genitals neither you nor they know anything about biology.

Sure...but I'm using genitalia in a general sense, to describe the outward appearance of our reproductive system. We can't view our hormones or gametes without a microscope and a scalpel.

I've said, maybe you missed it, but I have never dated that adults should not be allowed to transition if they want to. I've stated over and over that they can. However if they do, they must deal with the consequences of that decision, because it's voluntary, that they don't demand that society suffer consequences for that decision.

Why not? They're a part of society just like everyone else, they're free to make any demands of it they want to. Just like every other group who demands equal rights or equal protection under the law.

Doesn't mean they'll get it...but they certainly can demand it.

They haven't a right to demand society change in order for them to feel better based upon a voluntary choice.

Sure they do. Just like everyone else has the right to demand society change how it treats them because they've voluntarily chosen a religion, a political affiliation, or anything else. See the supposed "war on christmas" for an example.

If a man wants to wear a dress and get breast implants and still have a beard he doesn't get to demand that everyone call him she and participate in women's sports and get naked in women's locker rooms. Just so he can feel better.

Why can't he demand it? What law prevents him from doing that?

But kids should not be transitioned at all. Do you believe they should?

Again, I never brought up kids.

-- A2SG, and don't plan to......

 

[rjs330]

And there is. It's not definitive, and research is ongoing, but there is enough there to indicate that those who feel their gender doesn't match their genitalia aren't just pretending.

No there isn't.

Well, women certainly do. And some people born with male genitalia feel they do. Where is your evidence they're wrong?

They do? Let's make this simple. Your a man. What's a man feel like?

I've maintained throughout this discussion that it does not.

Well then we are in agreement on that point. For some reason you seemed to be stuck on pointing that out all the time. Not sure why. Did you some how believe that I thought the genitals were the only thing? That's it was the only method we had for declaring someone a man or a woman?

Then why do you keep saying there is no evidence when there is evidence?

Because there isn't any. Do you need me to quote the research again?

What do you think evidence is, exactly?

What do you think evidence is? I certainly hope it's not something like "we don't really have any good studies on this, but it could be something like this".

No one claimed it was a theory. At this point, it's little more than a hypothesis. But that doesn't make it nonexistent

A hypothesis isn't evidence.
In the scientific method, the hypothesis is constructed before any applicable research has been done, apart from a basic background review. You ask a question, read up on what has been studied before, and then form a hypothesis.

A hypothesis is usually tentative; it's an assumption or suggestion made strictly for the objective of being tested.

So, there still is no evidence.

feel like me. That's the best answer I can give you.

See even you don't know what a man feels like. Yet you will claim that a man can know what a woman feels like.

Sorry, I can't explain you to you. Only you can do that.

That's how subjective stuff works.

Yet when I did that you claimed I couldn't identify as what I wanted to identify as. Because it has some biological reality to it.

But then you turn around and claim that biological reality has nothing to do with a male and female identity? Why does it apply to everything else, but not that?

You claim it's subjective, but they are identifying as something that has biological significance. How does that work exactly?

Once again, I never brought them up.

Why are you dodging that queation

But trans people aren't talking about their genitalia. They're talking about their identity.

I thought we agreed that genitals are not the only biological thing that determines male and female.

Medical professionals disagree with you.

The research doesn't.

someone says they're trans, I tend to accept it. But you described someone who is told they're trans, not someone who claimed it themselves.

You know that's not how it works right? People aren't told their trans. They don't go into a clinic or see a doctor and say

"Doc I don't know what's wrong with me. I'm depressed, I have can't pay attention, I have anxiety."

Doc: "That's because you are transgender."

They go to the doctor and say "Doc I think I'm trans. I feel like woman. I line to wear dresses and play with dolls and I line pink. I have flet like this for 6 months now.".

Doc: "Well if you think you're trans, then I'm certainly not going to say you are not. I'm here to affirm you and say you are. Here's your drugs and referral to surgery."

You see these doctors are doing exactly what you do. They believe the person. There is no therapy involved in trying to determine exactly what else might be going to to make the person feel that way.

Does society treat people with epilepsy differently today than they did fifty years ago, or more? How about schizophrenia or bipolar disorder?

Society has changed a lot in how it treats the mentally ill...among others.

Again I'm not talking about medical interventions. I certainly hope we aren't still using shock therapy to stop people from being gay.

People who are bi-polar are receiving better medical care. But we have not altered society. No stores have changed. No schools have changed. No sports have changed. Building hasn't changed. Locker rooms didn't change. Society was not turned on its head to make epileptics feel better.

Sure...but I'm using genitalia in a general sense, to describe the outward appearance of our reproductive system. We can't view our hormones or gametes without a microscope and a scalpel.

Okay, that's all biology. Including chromosomes, muscle and bone structures etc. That's how we know whether someone is male or female. Man or Woman. It's science. And there is no science that says a man is really a woman on the inside.

Why not? They're a part of society just like everyone else, they're free to make any demands of it they want to. Just like every other group who demands equal rights or equal protection under the law.

Doesn't mean they'll get it...but they certainly can demand it.

Okay anyone can demand anything. But we are in no obligation to abide by it. This isn't a civil rights matter nor should it be. Because they are doing something that is not biologically supported and is completely voluntary.

Why can't he demand it? What law prevents him from doing that?

When I say demand I mean demand by the force of law. A 30 year old man could demand to have sex with a 12 year old. That doesn't mean we have any obligation to pass laws to provide him that just cause he wants it.

Again, I never brought up kids.

Why are you dodging the question? It's very suspicious based upon your responses. If you are consistent your answer would be yes. So why the dodge?

 

[A2SG]

No there isn't.

Well, it may not match with your preconceived opinions, but researchers in the field seem to think it warrants further research. Guess we'll see.

They do? Let's make this simple. Your a man. What's a man feel like?

Again, I feel like me. But I can only speak for me. I'm not one to tell someone else what they feel is wrong.

Well then we are in agreement on that point. For some reason you seemed to be stuck on pointing that out all the time. Not sure why. Did you some how believe that I thought the genitals were the only thing? That's it was the only method we had for declaring someone a man or a woman?

What else do you use? Do you have some method of visually determining what someone's hormonal levels are, or a way to measure their gametes noninvasively?

Because there isn't any. Do you need me to quote the research again?

Quote it all you like. Feel free to show me the part where it specifically says there cannot possibly be any way for one's gender identity to differ from one's reproductive biology.

What do you think evidence is? I certainly hope it's not something like "we don't really have any good studies on this, but it could be something like this".

Evidence would be some objectively determined criteria that points toward a conclusion. Like, for example, testosterone affecting fetal development and brain chemistry in certain people whose gender identity differs from their reproductive biology.

There could, of course, be other possible conclusions, so further research and testing needs to be done, but until something is found that invalidates the hypothesis, it remains a possibility.

So, it exists.

A hypothesis isn't evidence.

It can be. Until the hypothesis is disproven somehow, it remains possible.

In the scientific method, the hypothesis is constructed before any applicable research has been done, apart from a basic background review. You ask a question, read up on what has been studied before, and then form a hypothesis.

If that hypothesis is based on physical indicators that point to a possible conclusion, even if they don't definitively prove that conclusion, it can be considered evidence of that conclusion. Sufficient to warrant further research, anyway.

A hypothesis is usually tentative; it's an assumption or suggestion made strictly for the objective of being tested.

Or it can be based on something more. Often, they are.

So, there still is no evidence.

If you don't mind, I'll listen to researchers in the field who believe otherwise.

See even you don't know what a man feels like.

I know what I feel like. I can't speak for anyone else.

And neither can you.

Yet you will claim that a man can know what a woman feels like.

I claim no such thing. I've said that some people claim this...and I have no basis to say they're wrong.

Yet when I did that you claimed I couldn't identify as what I wanted to identify as. Because it has some biological reality to it.

You can identify as whatever you like, I never once said you couldn't.

But then you turn around and claim that biological reality has nothing to do with a male and female identity?

I never said it had nothing to do with it. I only said that, for some people, biology and gender identity don't agree.

Why does it apply to everything else, but not that?

There are plenty of other ways someone's identity may not match with their biology. A man who feels he's strong, but may be physically weak, for example. Or a person who feels he's too timid to stand up to some obstacle, finds strength within himself he never knew he had.

You claim it's subjective, but they are identifying as something that has biological significance. How does that work exactly?

Ask someone who has experience of that. Oh wait, I offered that to you before, you were dismissive of their experiences.

If you truly want to know how a trans person feels, or how they came to the conclusions they came to....ASK THEM. And, more importantly....LISTEN!

Why are you dodging that queation

Because I never mentioned children.

I thought we agreed that genitals are not the only biological thing that determines male and female.

They're not. Hormones and gametes also determine male and female, but these things are not observable without a lab. But other things determine gender as well, beyond biology. For example, identity.

The research doesn't.

Researchers feel otherwise.

You know that's not how it works right? People aren't told their trans.

I know. But that was the scenario you posed. I went by what you said.

They don't go into a clinic or see a doctor and say

"Doc I don't know what's wrong with me. I'm depressed, I have can't pay attention, I have anxiety."

Doc: "That's because you are transgender."

True enough.

They go to the doctor and say "Doc I think I'm trans. I feel like woman. I line to wear dresses and play with dolls and I line pink. I have flet like this for 6 months now.".

Doc: "Well if you think you're trans, then I'm certainly not going to say you are not. I'm here to affirm you and say you are. Here's your drugs and referral to surgery."

I think you may have missed a step or two there. For example, the part where the therapist says "Now, why do you feel this way?" and continues with therapy for a while before deciding on a diagnosis.

Kinda crucial steps there.

You see these doctors are doing exactly what you do. They believe the person.

Well...what choice do they have? Trained therapists, as a rule, don't just look under a person's skirt and say, "Nope, you can't be a woman, you've got a penis. That'll be $50."

There is no therapy involved in trying to determine exactly what else might be going to to make the person feel that way.

Of course there is. That's how therapy works.

Just ask a therapist.

Again I'm not talking about medical interventions. I certainly hope we aren't still using shock therapy to stop people from being gay.

Such tactics have been outlawed in most states, but there have been court decisions that refused to prohibit conversion therapy in some jurisdictions. The fight is ongoing.

People who are bi-polar are receiving better medical care. But we have not altered society. No stores have changed. No schools have changed. No sports have changed. Building hasn't changed. Locker rooms didn't change. Society was not turned on its head to make epileptics feel better.

Sure it has. People understand these issues more than they did in past generations, and those who deal with these issues are treated better by society.

Society changes all the time, in many different ways, even within our lifetime.

Okay, that's all biology. Including chromosomes, muscle and bone structures etc. That's how we know whether someone is male or female. Man or Woman. It's science. And there is no science that says a man is really a woman on the inside.

Sure there is. Many medical fields are involved in gender affirming care.

Okay anyone can demand anything. But we are in no obligation to abide by it.

No one said you were.

This isn't a civil rights matter nor should it be. Because they are doing something that is not biologically supported and is completely voluntary.

Many voluntary activities are covered under civil rights law. Religion, for example. Unless you're trying to claim that religion is biologically supported.

You're not, are you?

When I say demand I mean demand by the force of law.

Again, why not? Anyone can petition for a law of any kind....it says so, right in the Constitution.

Doesn't mean it will pass, but they still have the right to demand it.

A 30 year old man could demand to have sex with a 12 year old. That doesn't mean we have any obligation to pass laws to provide him that just cause he wants it.

Again, see the part where I said people can demand stuff, but that doesn't mean they'll get it.

Why are you dodging the question? It's very suspicious based upon your responses. If you are consistent your answer would be yes. So why the dodge?

Because I'm not talking about children. I never brought up children, I never tried to discuss children.

The American Academy of Pediatrics has a policy regarding children and transgender care, I linked to it earlier. If you want to discuss that, take it up with them. I'm not speaking for them, nor do I intend to argue against them.

-- A2SG, in a very similar way, I also intend to dodge any questions you have about the Red Sox's chances this season....

 

[rjs330]

Well, it may not match with your preconceived opinions, but researchers in the field seem to think it warrants further research. Guess we'll see.

Yes it does because they haven't found the evidence yet. They still are speculating there might be, but they haven't found it.

Again, I feel like me. But I can only speak for me. I'm not one to tell someone else what they feel is wrong.

Your dodging the question. How do you know you are a man? Do you feel like one? What's a man feel like?

You see the problem? The claim is they feel like a woman. It's not that they feel like themselves as you claim. They feel like a woman when they are a man. You don't seem to know what a man feels like yet you can claim they know what a woman feels like?

There is ZERO research to support such an assertion.

What else do you use? Do you have some method of visually determining what someone's hormonal levels are, or a way to measure their gametes noninvasively?

You are talking visual cues only. Biology is not just visual cues. Yes laymen can look at someone and recognize whether someone is a man or woman most of the time. But if you are going to claim you ARE a woman then you need to have the biology of a woman and not just the looks.

You haven't heard me say this so I'm am going to clarify something. If a person is so dedicated to this process of being as close to a woman as the possibly could get, which includes hormone therapy and full surgical procedures to transform their entire body so no one can tell them apart from a woman without a DNA sample or full body scan etc. Then fine call yourself a woman I won't argue with you cause I would have no clue and either would anyone else. But please note you are still not a woman. You are just wearing a very good costume.

Quote it all you like. Feel free to show me the part where it specifically says there cannot possibly be any way for one's gender identity to differ from one's reproductive biology.

That's not the point. The point is there isn't any evidence that one can feel they are the opposite sex. We can show through biology that if you truly believe you are the opposite sex that you have a mental illness that needs treatment.

Like, for example, testosterone affecting fetal development and brain chemistry in certain people whose gender identity differs from their reproductive biology.

They haven't found that it does. Still no evidence.

It can be. Until the hypothesis is disproven somehow, it remains possible.

Hmmm.... Still no evidence. Only a belief. I can hypothesize about anything. That doesn't mean a thing.

You can identify as whatever you like, I never once said you couldn't.

You claimed I would be wrong to do so based upon biological.factors.

I claim no such thing. I've said that some people claim this...and I have no basis to say they're wrong.

Good for you. I do.

never said it had nothing to do with it. I only said that, for some people, biology and gender identity don't agree.

That's the same thing. Especially when you said biology does apply to everything else.

There are plenty of other ways someone's identity may not match with their biology. A man who feels he's strong, but may be physically weak, for example. Or a person who feels he's too timid to stand up to some obstacle, finds strength within himself he never knew he had.

And they were wrong weren't they.

Ask someone who has experience of that. Oh wait, I offered that to you before, you were dismissive of their experiences.

If you truly want to know how a trans person feels, or how they came to the conclusions they came to....ASK THEM. And, more importantly....LISTEN!

I have. And my conversation isn't with them. It's with you.

Because I never mentioned children.

That's not an answer. I did mention children and asked you about them. And you are dodging the question . Why?

For example, identity.

What are they identifying as?

Researchers feel otherwise.

It depends. Those that examine the research have shown it to be invalid. There's research out there that says it doesn't help.

think you may have missed a step or two there. For example, the part where the therapist says "Now, why do you feel this way?" and continues with therapy for a while before deciding on a diagnosis.

Kinda crucial steps there.

Lol. I missed the crucial steps? Are you aware that affirmative care doesn't ask those questions? Doesn't explore?

Well...what choice do they have? Trained therapists, as a rule, don't just look under a person's skirt and say, "Nope, you can't be a woman, you've got a penis. That'll be $50."

No what they do is believe them and say, "yup I believe you. That'll be $50".

As opposed to say, real therapy.

Sure it has. People understand these issues more than they did in past generations, and those who deal with these issues are treated better by society.

Society changes all the time, in many different ways, even within our lifetime.

Medical advancements and understanding is not altering society like I'm talking about. Please re-read my post and address that instead of not addressing it. Understanding medical treatments and issues is not the same thing as altering society.

Sure there is. Many medical fields are involved in gender affirming care.

They are basing their actions on bad research, biased research and faulty research. Others are basing it on making a buck.

Many voluntary activities are covered under civil rights law. Religion, for example. Unless you're trying to claim that religion is biologically supported.

You're not, are you?

So now you are admitting that transgenderism is a system based on faith? Is it a religion now?

Because I'm not talking about children. I never brought up children, I never tried to discuss children.

I am and you don't want to. Why is that?

The American Academy of Pediatrics has a policy regarding children and transgender care, I linked to it earlier. If you want to discuss that, take it up with them. I'm not speaking for them, nor do I intend to argue against them.

And I provided you a link on how that came about and what the AAP has done to squash members who disagree with it. They are an organization largely funded by big pharma who pushes the drugs on children. You should listen to the facts on this case. They have turned a blind eye to the systematic review of the research the doctor who pushed this into the AAP provided to them. Unlike other countries who did and discovered that all of it was bad research and shouldn't be used. Why is the AAP so against the systematic review? You should be asking the question.

Why are dodging the question about kids?

 

[Truth7t7]

Why are dodging the question about kids?

Agenda before kids, it's that simple

 

[rjs330]

Researchers feel otherwise.

The research shows otherwise.

Reduction in Mental Health Treatment Utilization Among Transgender Individuals After Gender-Affirming Surgeries: A Total Population Study

Reading that sure make you think that gender affirming medical intervention helps people have better mental health outcomes. Note that the study shows that hormonal treatment alone doesn't help. But they seem to claim that the surgical treatments do.

However they authors have posted a correction to their studies when asked by researchers to review their findings because there were a lot of questions regarding their conclusions that didn't seem to match the study. So they issued a correction.

Psychiatry Online

Upon request, the authors reanalyzed the data to compare outcomes between individuals diagnosed with gender incongruence who had received gender-affirming surgical treatments and those diagnosed with gender incongruence who had not. While this comparison was performed retrospectively and was not part of the original research question given that several other factors may differ between the groups, the results demonstrated no advantage of surgery in relation to subsequent mood or anxiety disorder-related health care visits or prescriptions or hospitalizations following suicide attempts in that comparison.

In fact, in their correction to the original study, the authors point out that on one score—treatment for anxiety disorders—patients who had sex-reassignment surgeries did worse than those who did not:

individuals diagnosed with gender incongruence who had received gender-affirming surgery were more likely to be treated for anxiety disorders compared with individuals diagnosed with gender incongruence who had not received gender-affirming surgery.

Also their original conclusions were primarily based upon three people.

Here’s how the Guardian summarized the results of a review of “more than 100 follow-up studies of post-operative transsexuals” by Birmingham University’s Aggressive Research Intelligence Facility (Arif):

Arif, which conducts reviews of healthcare treatments for the NHS, concludes that none of the studies provides conclusive evidence that gender reassignment is beneficial for patients. It found that most research was poorly designed, which skewed the results in favour of physically changing sex. There was no evaluation of whether other treatments, such as long-term counselling, might help transsexuals, or whether their gender confusion might lessen over time.

“There is huge uncertainty over whether changing someone’s sex is a good or a bad thing,” said Chris Hyde, the director of Arif. Even if doctors are careful to perform these procedures only on “appropriate patients,” Hyde continued, “there’s still a large number of people who have the surgery but remain traumatized—often to the point of committing suicide.”

Of particular concern are the people these studies “lost track of.” As the Guardian noted, “the results of many gender reassignment studies are unsound because researchers lost track of more than half of the participants.”

Bottom line is there is no research that actually shows that there is a benefit to the person to undergo medicalized treatment for their mental health problem..

Instead of prioritizing medical Intervention to try and make the body match the mental illness we should be working to help the patients mental state match the body.