Florida ‘effectively’ bans Advanced Placement Psychology course due to curriculum's discussion of gender and sexual orientation

[OldAbramBrown]

NewsWeek​

Most U.S. Adults Believe There Are Only 2 Genders, Survey Shows​

BY JON JACKSON ON 12/29/21 AT 2:40 PM EST
The survey conducted by Rasmussen Reports asked 1,000 adults in the U.S. if they agreed with the statement that "[t]here are two genders, male and female." Seventy-five percent of respondents said they agreed with the statement, including 63 percent who said they strongly agreed.

Male and female are sexes.

 

[OldAbramBrown]

Male and female roles and traits aren't real? News to me, I've experienced them all my life.

Of course roles and traits (each) are real. The roles rapidly change, due to sacred pressure from religious leaders with bad consciences for not teaching us prayer and virtues when we were willing (I watched the entire process unfold).

 

[OldAbramBrown]

- Why would 18 or 21 year olds undertake a high maintenance pathway in an economic crash?

- Years ago there was very little makeup except for a subset who were into powder, plus lipstick of course.

- Boys' and girls' clothes were almost the same.

 

[Truth7t7]

Yeah, that kid has it right, biology 101

 

[essentialsaltes]

Yeah, that kid has it right, biology 101

The topic of the thread is AP Psychology.

 

[Truth7t7]

Male and female are sexes.

Gender is male and female

Male and female is a sex

 

[A2SG]

Nope I've read all of that. There is no scientific evidence for it.

You're still wrong.

I've posted this one before: Neurobiology of gender identity and sexual orientation. Specifically, it states: "The present review discusses the relationship of sexual identity and sexual orientation to prenatal factors that act to shape the development of the brain and the expression of sexual behaviours in animals and humans."

Now, I've given you scientific evidence for a biological component of gender identity. Feel free to refute it, if you wish...but please do so by addressing the science, and the research presented, not simply by dismissing it because it doesn't fit your preconceived opinions.

Right cause identity is subjective and not based on reality. Therefore I can identify as a black female. Because I don't have to base it on anything.

Again, ethnicity isn't subjective. Nor is skin color.

Read it. No scientific evidence.

See above. Here's more:
How Science is Helping Us Understand Gender

Between the (Gender) Lines: the Science of Transgender Identity

You may want to do some more reading.

Right biological male and biological female correct?

Nope. Identity. Traits and behaviors associated with what's considered "male" and "female" with a culture or society. This bit isn't about biology...though, the research I presented does indicate a biological component that contributes to gender identity.

You can believe anything you want correct. The belief you have might be real. I might have a sincerely belief the world is flat. That does not mean the world is flat. I may sincerely believe I am a black female but that belief does not mean I am really a black female. People with anorexia have a sincere belief. That doesn't mean they are correct. People with body integrity disorder sincerely believe they need to have a limb removed. That doesn't mean they actually need a limb removed.

Sure, not all beliefs are accurate, nor are they always beneficial

But the fact remains: beliefs are subjective...and very real to the individuals who hold them.

People who believe they are the opposite sex have dysphoria which means they have a disorder to believe in something that is not real. They are NOT the opposite sex.

And a cure for that is to become the other sex, which can be done now.

Gender roles are not the same thing as being the opposite sex. Those may be societal norms or expectations. But that has nothing to do with your actual gender. I'm sure we could go back in history and show how gender roles and expectations have changed. But the genders haven't.

Very true. Some people can choose to fill a role normally associated with a different gender and still be the gender they're born as. But that doesn't mean EVERYONE prefers to live this way. Some would rather BE the gender they identify with.

Different strokes and all that.

I was born a male. I didn't choose. I didn't decide.

No one says you did.

But there are people out there, born with male genitalia, who don't identify as male. They have had different experiences than you have...so your experiences aren't really relevant to them, are they?

That's the problem you are dealing with. Someone with a mental health disorder who thinks they are something they are not. That's the problem.

And the solution could be to become what they feel they are. Fortunately, today medical science allows them this option.

Because they have a mental health disorder. Some people think they are a red tailed hawk. Or recently a man paid a lot of money for a costume to become a dog cause he thinks he is one.

You keep conflating things like one's species and one's skin color to one's identity, despite my continuously pointing out they're not the same thing. What point do you think you're making with this?

But just cause you have mental health problems it does not mean you are correct. If you have hallucinations you sincerely believe they are real. But you are the only one who sees and hears them. They are not real because of your mental health disorder.

Some people talk to God. They feel this is very real. Are you going to tell them they're hallucinating?

REAL trans people have a serious mental health disorder. It's not just a simple identity that you make it out to be. It's not normal. It's a serious problem.

I never said identity was a simple issue. It's vastly complicated. And different for just about everyone.

It should be easy for you then to quote the links where and who made the discovery and the scientific research that discovered it.

See above. I actually posted the same link earlier, in fact...it went unremarked. And, I presume, unread.

Nope

Yup.

This is fun!

Hey let's look at one shall we?

Gender and health

Gender and health

www.who.int

Now let's look at the word twisting they use.

Here's from the article.

*Gender refers to the characteristics of women, men, girls and boys that are socially constructed. This includes norms, behaviours and roles associated with being a woman, man, girl or boy, as well as relationships with each other. As a social construct, gender varies from society to society and can change over time."

See what they did there? They associated gender with sex. Just like I said. You can define gender without biological sex as the basis. It's not separate despite the attempts to make it so.

And yet, the described the difference. Just as I have before.

Let's go on.

"Gender identity refers to a person’s deeply felt, internal and individual experience of gender, which may or may not correspond to the person’s physiology or designated sex at birth."

They are talking about feelings. Feelings that may not correspond with someone's sex. We all have feelings right? But are our feelings always accurate to reality. I may feel one thing but reality is something different. I may feel I am fat, when in reality I am not. I may feel I am ugly when in reality I am not. I may feel a lot of things where in reality it is not true. Feelings are NOT truth. Never have been.

Are you contending that nothing we feel is true?

Nothing at all? Nothing whatsoever?

Which would mean, of course, that your feelings about this subject aren't true.

See where this leaves us?

Now where in that article does it provide the scientific research that discovered gender really exists. That people really are the sex they think they are?

Again, the point is that sex and gender don't always match.

And I have provided scientific research into the subject. See above.

Now let's look at your second article. Which you obviously did not read. Let me quote it for you.

"However, it is hypothetically possible that, in rare cases, these events could be influenced independently of each other and result in people who identify with a gender different from their physical sex. A similar reasoning has been invoked to explain the role of prenatal hormones on sexual orientation."

Did you notice that it says it is HYPOTHETICALLY POSSIBLE. In other words they have no idea. They have not discovered anything of the sort. They don't know.

That's how science works. They do research, draw conclusions and then test those conclusions over and over again. Science never says they know the definitive answer to anything, because future research may very well prove their conclusions wrong.

And if that happens, they do more research.

That's what science is.

Let's go on.

"The establishment of gender identity is a complex phenomenon and the diversity of gender expression argues against a simple or unitary explanation. For this reason, the extent to which it is determined by social vs biological (ie, genes and hormones) factors continues to be debated vigorously.17"

If this is a settled discovery by science why is it still debated?

There is no such thing as a "settled discovery" in science. Research is always ongoing.

Nope still no scientific discovery to state it's a real thing beyond a mental health issue.

If you want definitive, final concrete answers...science ain't where you're gonna find them.

No Jenner hasn't. Jenner is still a man. Jenner just out on a woman's costume and is pretending to be a woman.

Does she still have male genitalia?

Because it's not based on reality

You keep saying that, and I'll continue to repeat that subjective things are still real.

You want a different answer? Make a different point.

No one thinks they woke up and decided to be trans. Don't be naive.

Some seem to. On these forums alone, I've heard several posters claim that people can just up and decide to be a different gender, just because they choose to. It isn't that simple...as the people quoted in that article can attest.

They have a mental health disorder. Some have a mental health disorder that makes them think they are the opposite sex. Many teens have other mental health problems and they think that if they transition that will fix the problems. But the real problems are NOT trans related. They just think that's the solution.

Your psychiatric diagnosis for several patients you've never met has been noted.

Though, I can't help wondering why you'd ask how someone comes to the conclusion they're a different gender if you're just going to dismiss their answers and substitute your own personal preconceived opinions as if they're fact.

Especially since, as you contend, your feelings can't be true.

-- A2SG, seems you're on pretty shaky ground to me.....

 

[A2SG]

Gender is male and female

Male and female is a sex

There are more things, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy.

-- A2SG, and just so you know...male and female are actually TWO sexes....not one......

 

[rjs330]

You're still wrong.

I've posted this one before: Neurobiology of gender identity and sexual orientation. Specifically, it states: "The present review discusses the relationship of sexual identity and sexual orientation to prenatal factors that act to shape the development of the brain and the expression of sexual behaviours in animals and humans."

Now, I've given you scientific evidence for a biological component of gender identity. Feel free to refute it, if you wish...but please do so by addressing the science, and the research presented, not simply by dismissing it because it doesn't fit your preconceived opinions.

You continue to link to things that don't say what you claim. Here's what YOUR link says.

However, it is hypothetically possible that, in rare cases, these events could be influenced independently of each other and result in people who identify with a gender different from their physical sex. A similar reasoning has been invoked to explain the role of prenatal hormones on sexual orientation.

The establishment of gender identity is a complex phenomenon and the diversity of gender expression argues against a simple or unitary explanation. For this reason, the extent to which it is determined by social vs biological (ie, genes and hormones) factors continues to be debated vigorously.17

Evidence of a genetic contribution to transsexuality is very limited.21 There are few reports of family and twin studies of transsexuals but none offer clear support for the involvement of genetic factors.22–24

In case you didn't know hypothetical is not and evidence of something. A hypothetical is not a scientific discovery. See they admit the evidence is limited. Just a few reports. No scientific evidence. So no there is no evidence for discovering gender.

You obviously haven't read your own studies.

From another if your articles that claim to show a scientific discovery of gender.

"These studies have several problems. They are often small, involving as few as half a dozen transgender individuals. And they sometimes include people who already have started taking hormones to transition to the opposite gender, meaning that observed brain differences might be the result of, rather than the explanation for, a subject’s transgender identity."

I could go on but I won't. Because you are not the first person to make this claim and point to these articles. And not just me but others have also had to point out the articles don't prove what you claim. I've read every single one of those articles before. It looks like your the one who needs to read these articles in depth.

There is no scientific discovery of gender. Why? Because as YOU stated gender is subjective. It's not based upon any factual evidence or scientific biological resources.

Nope. Identity. Traits and behaviors associated with what's considered "male" and "female" with a culture or society. This bit isn't about biology...though, the research I presented does indicate a biological component that contributes to gender identity.

No they don't. See above. Traits and behaviors do not determine if you our are male or female. Your sex does. Traits and b behaviors simply determine what you like and don't like and and how you act. Are you trying to say gender is performative?

Are you contending that nothing we feel is true?

Nothing at all? Nothing whatsoever?

Which would mean, of course, that your feelings about this subject aren't true.

See where this leaves us?

I'm saying our feelings are not evidence that something IS true. Feelings are not truth alone. We have to show that our feelings have a basis is fact. I might be scared of the monster under the bed, but my feelings don't indicate that there is a monster under my bed. I'm scared. But my feeling doesn't dictate the truth.

Yup.

Nope, even more fun!

Again, the point is that sex and gender don't always match.

And I have provided scientific research into the subject. See above.

That's the claim. But the claim is not based on scientific evidence. You haven't proven anything with your links. Because they don't provide and scientific evidence that it is true. That a man can actually feel like a women. How do exactly measure that? What does a woman feel like?

Does she still have male genitalia?

Your cute to think that only genitalia makes you a man.

If you want definitive, final concrete answers...science ain't where you're gonna find them.

No? Then I can just claim I am a female black woman. After all it's what I identify as and identity is subjective.
Except in that case genetics is evidence.

Very true. Some people can choose to fill a role normally associated with a different gender and still be the gender they're born as. But that doesn't mean EVERYONE prefers to live this way. Some would rather BE the gender they identify with.

Different strokes and all that.

Sure, live any way you like. Live as a dog.

But transgendering kids is another story because their bodies and brains are being altered before they are even adults. They have no clue what they are doing. Their are kids ans if you have kids you know they are highly emotional and susceptible to suggestions at that age.

Since gender is not a real thing other than biological sex, then we are harming kids. We are not helping them.

There is no such thing as a "settled discovery" in science. Research is always ongoing.

Then why are you claiming there is a scientific discovery that gender is real? Man you are are flailing here.

You keep saying that, and I'll continue to repeat that subjective things are still real.

You haven't proven gender is real. You haven't proven that a man can be a woman.

Though, I can't help wondering why you'd ask how someone comes to the conclusion they're a different gender if you're just going to dismiss their answers and substitute your own personal preconceived opinions as if they're fact.

I asked you the question and you didn't answer it. You just posted a video making a claim they didn't wake up one day think they are the opposite sex. Oh wait there it is again. Sex. Biological sex.

And I noticed you also ignored everything I posted in regards to this. Interesting since I've read your stuff.

I've discovered that you aren't really I terated in having a real conversation. While I've read yours and pointed out the failings, flaws and inconclusivity that it mentioned in the articles and quoted them, you have reviewed of what I've posted. I'll tell you what when you listen to the video from Dr. Stocks you can come back and show us where she is wrong.

Bottom line. Your articles, I've read and they do t say what you claim. None of them proved gender exists beyond the binary of biological sex.

 

[A2SG]

You continue to link to things that don't say what you claim. Here's what YOUR link says.

However, it is hypothetically possible that, in rare cases, these events could be influenced independently of each other and result in people who identify with a gender different from their physical sex. A similar reasoning has been invoked to explain the role of prenatal hormones on sexual orientation.

The establishment of gender identity is a complex phenomenon and the diversity of gender expression argues against a simple or unitary explanation. For this reason, the extent to which it is determined by social vs biological (ie, genes and hormones) factors continues to be debated vigorously.17

Evidence of a genetic contribution to transsexuality is very limited.21 There are few reports of family and twin studies of transsexuals but none offer clear support for the involvement of genetic factors.22–24

In case you didn't know hypothetical is not and evidence of something. A hypothetical is not a scientific discovery. See they admit the evidence is limited. Just a few reports. No scientific evidence. So no there is no evidence for discovering gender.

Yes, the evidence is limited, most evidence is. This is why research is ongoing, and no scientist has ever said they've proven anything conclusively and definitively.

However, limited evidence isn't the same as no evidence, as you've decided.

Refute the evidence, if you want to, I'm willing to listen. But to do that, you have to address it.

But, if all you're going to do is simply disregard the evidence or ignore it, because it doesn't fit with the preconceived opinions you've already formed, that's not much of an argument.

You obviously haven't read your own studies.

I seem to have read more than you have. For example, the study mentions that hormones like testosterone can affect fetal development, and could be the cause of why some individuals identify as male, even if their sexual anatomy is female. Care to address this? It suggests a biological indicator for gender identity.

Is it absolute, rock solid, definitive proof of it? No, of course not. But it is evidence. You can either address it, and discuss the science...or ignore it and pretend your personal, preconceived opinions are more valid than the scientific research actually being done in this field.

Wanna guess which one I tend to take more seriously?

From another if your articles that claim to show a scientific discovery of gender.

"These studies have several problems. They are often small, involving as few as half a dozen transgender individuals. And they sometimes include people who already have started taking hormones to transition to the opposite gender, meaning that observed brain differences might be the result of, rather than the explanation for, a subject’s transgender identity."

I could go on but I won't. Because you are not the first person to make this claim and point to these articles. And not just me but others have also had to point out the articles don't prove what you claim. I've read every single one of those articles before. It looks like your the one who needs to read these articles in depth.

I never claimed any of these articles proved anything. That's not how science works.
What I said was they were evidence. Evidence you claim is nonexistent.

Address the evidence, if you can. But ignoring it tells me you're more interested in your own preconceived opinions than the actual science. And lets me know exactly how seriously to take your arguments.

There is no scientific discovery of gender. Why?

Because that's not how science works.

Because as YOU stated gender is subjective.

Thank you.

It's not based upon any factual evidence or scientific biological resources.

And yet, there is evidence to support the idea that gender identity is real, and not just a figment of anyone's imagination.

Evidence. Not definitive, absolute proof. Evidence.

No they don't. See above. Traits and behaviors do not determine if you our are male or female. Your sex does.

And yet, for some people, it does not.

Traits and b behaviors simply determine what you like and don't like and and how you act. Are you trying to say gender is performative?

Nope. Which is why I didn't say that.

I'm saying our feelings are not evidence that something IS true. Feelings are not truth alone. We have to show that our feelings have a basis is fact.

We do? Really? How does that work, exactly?

Do you have to prove to your wife that your feelings of love for her are a fact? Do you need to prove your feelings about God before you can accept whether or not God is real? Do you need to prove your feelings about politics before you cast a vote?

Love. Religion. Political beliefs. All subjective things, all very real to each and every one of us. And there exists not one single shred of factual proof for any of them.

I might be scared of the monster under the bed, but my feelings don't indicate that there is a monster under my bed. I'm scared. But my feeling doesn't dictate the truth.

No one said every feeling is true. But that isn't the same as saying none are.

Nope, even more fun!

That's the claim. But the claim is not based on scientific evidence. You haven't proven anything with your links. Because they don't provide and scientific evidence that it is true.

I've given you several examples of evidence. You seem to be confusing evidence with definitive proof, and assume that unless something has absolute, rock-solid, definitive proof, it's nonexistent.

That's not how science works.

Gravity, for example, is a theory, according to science. But try flying on your own, see how far you get.

That a man can actually feel like a women. How do exactly measure that?

Same way you measure what it feels like to be a man.

What does a woman feel like?

Man, what a straight line....

Your cute to think that only genitalia makes you a man.

I never said it did. But you claimed Caitlyn was "pretending" to be a woman, and I would like to know how you know that. You're the one who keeps saying your sexual anatomy determines your gender. Show your work.

No? Then I can just claim I am a female black woman. After all it's what I identify as and identity is subjective.

You can claim whatever you like, it's not up to me to say you're wrong.

But, while your gender is your own concern and none of mine, your skin color is what it is, regardless. That's why skin color and identity aren't the same thing....as I've said several times already.

Except in that case genetics is evidence.

Of ethnicity, sure. Not of gender identity.

As I've said before.

Sure, live any way you like. Live as a dog.

I'm not in the business of telling anyone how to live their lives.

But transgendering kids is another story because their bodies and brains are being altered before they are even adults. They have no clue what they are doing. Their are kids ans if you have kids you know they are highly emotional and susceptible to suggestions at that age.

Who said anything about kids? Not me.

Since gender is not a real thing other than biological sex, then we are harming kids. We are not helping them.

What's your evidence that gender isn't real? I offered evidence for it, you've offered none against.

You just claim it's nonexistent....despite many people who believe otherwise.

Then why are you claiming there is a scientific discovery that gender is real? Man you are are flailing here.

You asked for evidence, I gave it.

You want absolute, definitive discoveries? Don't look to science. That isn't how science works.

You haven't proven gender is real.

Never tried to. I just presented evidence for it.

You haven't proven that a man can be a woman.

And you haven't proven one can't.

You offered your own, personal preconceived opinions on the subject, a subject about which you have admitted you have no actual experience of.

I asked you the question and you didn't answer it.

You asked: "How does a biological male come to the conclusion he is really a female?"

I presented the actual words of a real biological male who came to the conclusion he was a female. And others who came to similar conclusions about their own gender.

That's the best answer I can give you.

You just posted a video

Actually, an article from the Guardian.

making a claim they didn't wake up one day think they are the opposite sex.

That was the headline. The rest of it was that person's story, in their own words.

Oh wait there it is again. Sex. Biological sex.

As opposed to gender identity, Exactly the distinction I've made from the start.

And I noticed you also ignored everything I posted in regards to this.

It wasn't relevant. You wanted to know how someone came to this conclusion, I gave you someone who told you exactly how. This isn't something you can disprove or refute, no matter how many different opinion pieces you offer.

Interesting since I've read your stuff.

Well, partially, it seems. You got to the disclaimer bits, where they say they haven't definitively proven something (a thing no scientist claims), but if you read the stuff about hormones and their effect on brain chemistry, well, you didn't address any of it.

I've discovered that you aren't really I terated in having a real conversation. While I've read yours and pointed out the failings, flaws and inconclusivity that it mentioned in the articles and quoted them, you have reviewed of what I've posted. I'll tell you what when you listen to the video from Dr. Stocks you can come back and show us where she is wrong.

She's entitled to her opinion.

Bottom line. Your articles, I've read and they do t say what you claim. None of them proved gender exists beyond the binary of biological sex.

You said there is no scientific evidence. I presented scientific evidence. You then dismiss it because it isn't absolute, definitive proof, even though I never claimed it was.

Moving the goalposts is a logical fallacy, dude.

You want a real, honest discussion? I'm game.

You first.

-- A2SG, you may fire when ready, grizzly......

 

[Truth7t7]

Yes, the evidence is limited, most evidence is. This is why research is ongoing, and no scientist has ever said they've proven anything conclusively and definitively.

Because there is male and female, and no scientist has stated "Definitively" because it doesn't exist, they will sit on the gravy train of federal taxpayer grants in research, until the milk stool is kicked out from underneath them

The research is nothing more than getting federal taxpayer $dollars$ in grants, pushing the woke agenda from all channels, trying to gain public opinion, and it ain't working

The progressive liberal woke agenda has been a detriment to the democratic platform, as blue collared working men and women are fleeing the party in droves

America has been polled and 75% believe there are "Two" genders, Male/Female, only 18% disagree

God made Adam and Eve it's that simple, and nobody is changing that fact

 

[A2SG]

Because there is male and female, and no scientist has stated "Definitively" because it doesn't exist,

Actually, scientists tend not to make definitive statements about anything, because that isn't how science works.

they will sit on the gravy train of federal taxpayer grants in research, until the milk stool is kicked out from underneath them

Who mentioned federal grants?

The research is nothing more than getting federal taxpayer $dollars$ in grants, pushing the woke agenda from all channels, trying to gain public opinion, and it ain't working

The progressive liberal woke agenda has been a detriment to the democratic platform, as blue collared working men and women are fleeing the party in droves

Who mentioned any of that stuff?

America has been polled and 75% believe there are "Two" genders, Male/Female, only 18% disagree

And 11% of Americans believe HTML is an STD.

So what?

God made Adam and Eve it's that simple, and nobody is changing that fact

Out of curiosity....who did Seth marry?

-- A2SG, was it his mom?

 

[Truth7t7]

And 11% of Americans believe HTML is an STD.

So what?

A voice crying in the wilderness of the American population,75% of Americans believe there are "Two" genders male/female, 18% disagree

The progressive liberal woke agenda is on exit stage left, the 18% isn't going to control the 75% its that simple

Does a father want to see a guy with a beard, hairy legs and chest, with a blonde wig, lipstick, and high heels, hang out with his wife and daughter in the women's restroom at the local Target stores, all in the name of gender inclusiveness, "No"

The progressive liberal woke agenda has overstepped its bounds, and the 75% of Americans is a good sign on where Americans are at

 

[KCfromNC]

- Why would 18 or 21 year olds undertake a high maintenance pathway in an economic crash?

Bringing up the Bush administration seems like a distraction, given the topic is about a recent GOP-enacted state law essentially banning the teaching of an advanced placement high school course.

 

[A2SG]

A voice crying in the wilderness of the American population,75% of Americans believe there are "Two" genders male/female, 18% disagree

Again....so what? Since when is argumentum ad populum a valid argument?

-- A2SG, especially since identity is a very personal issue for each individual, not something decided by popular vote.....

 

[Truth7t7]

-- A2SG, especially since identity is a very personal issue for each individual, not something decided by popular vote.....

Identity is a personal view in your opinion, a psychiatric view in others, go see a psych doctor

God made Adam and Eve, male and female, it's that simple

 

[A2SG]

Identity is a personal view in your opinion, a psychiatric view in others, go see a psych doctor

Kindly explain the difference, please.

God made Adam and Eve, male and female, it's that simple

Still wondering who Seth married.

-- A2SG, do you even know?

 

[GreatLakes4Ever]

Kindly explain the difference, please.


Still wondering who Seth married.

-- A2SG, do you even know?

I’m more curious about who married Cain.

 

[Pommer]

I’m more curious about who married Cain.

Don’t matter, the choke point is The Deluge wherein only one Family whose lineage we already know, survived.

 

[A2SG]

Don’t matter, the choke point is The Deluge wherein only one Family whose lineage we already know, survived.

True enough....but, for either Cain or Seth, the only choices were to marry their sister, or their mom. No other options.

-- A2SG, creepy either way.....