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Works of the Law.

Xeno.of.athens

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What are the works of the Law? Obedience to the Law of Moses leads to circumcision, assiduous following of rules of conduct, care to offer the right sacrifices, observance of religious rituals and feasts. But is kindness a work of the Law, or love, or compassion, or family loyalty, honesty and justice?
 

Xeno.of.athens

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"Works" that would result in your earning or deserving salvation. The problem is you have to keep all the laws perfectly, so breaking one means you do not deserve salvation.
Works of the Law isn't just "works".
 
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Hawkins

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Works of the Law basically, perhaps more intangibly, refers to a previous covenant. The New Covenant is not a covenant a human is born with. It is a covenant a human chooses with consent when growing up. A previous covenant on the other is born with. The Jews are given the Mosaic covenant. They need to act in accordance to what specified. This old covenant however won't be able to save them.

They (the Jews) need to act according to the 613 laws, at the same time they need to believe in Jesus to be saved. If they don't observe the 613 laws, they are not deemed as Jews in terms of Law and covenants. They made themselves gentiles. Gentiles then need to act in accordance to conscience, as demanded by gentiles' own previoius covenant (possibly Noah's covenant of rainbow). This won't save them though, they need to accept the New Covenant with consent in order to be saved, that is by believing in Jesus Christ.

On the other hand, the New Covenant is about a measurement of faith. We humans don't have the ability to judge how faith goes inside a human. Roughly however we can tell how well one sticks to the works of Law. We sin less and less as a reflection of how our faith goes. That's why faith without the works of Law is dead.
 
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Soyeong

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What are the works of the Law? Obedience to the Law of Moses leads to circumcision, assiduous following of rules of conduct, care to offer the right sacrifices, observance of religious rituals and feasts. But is kindness a work of the Law, or love, or compassion, or family loyalty, honesty and justice?
In Acts 5:32, the Spirit has been given to those who obey God, so obedience to God is part of the way to receive the Spirit, however, Galatians 3:1-2 denies that "works of the law" are part of the way to receive the Spirit, therefore that phrase does not refer to obedience to God, which means that it does not refer any part of the Mosaic Law. In Romans 3:27-31, Paul contrasted a law of works with a law of faith, so works of the law are of works while he said that our faith upholds God's law, and a law that our faith upholds can't be referring to the same thing as the works of the law that are not of faith in Galatians 3:10-11. In Galatians 3:11-12, Paul connected a quote from Habakkuk 2:4 saying that the righteous shall live by faith with a quote from Leviticus 18:5 that the one who obeys the Mosaic Law will live by it, so the righteous who are living by faith are the same as those who are living in obedience to the Mosaic Law while not one is justified by works of the law because they are not of faith.

Likewise, in Isaiah 51:7, the righteous are those on whose heart is the Mosaic Law, so the righteous living by faith does not refer to something other than living in obedience to the Mosaic Law. God is trustworthy, therefore the Mosaic Law is also trustworthy (Psalms 19:7), so the way to rely on God is by obediently relying on what He has instructed, it is contradictory to think that we should have faith in God, but not in what He has instructed, and to interpret "works of the law not being of faith" as referring to anything that God has instructed is to deny the faithfulness of God.

In Matthew 23:23, Jesus said that faith is one of the weightier matters of the Mosaic Law. In Psalms 119:29-30, he wanted to put false ways far from him, for God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey the Mosaic Law, and he chose the way of faithfulness by setting it before him, so this has always been the one and only way of salvation by grace through faith.

In Proverbs 3:5-7 we have a choice between leaning on our own understanding of right and wrong by doing what is right in our own eyes or trusting in God with all of our heart to correctly divide between right and wrong through what He has instructed, and He will make our way straight, and this is what it means to have faith.
 
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Soyeong

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"Works" that would result in your earning or deserving salvation. The problem is you have to keep all the laws perfectly, so breaking one means you do not deserve salvation.
We do not earn our salvation as a wage even through perfect obedience (Romans 4:1-5).
 
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Xeno.of.athens

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We do not earn our salvation as a wage even through perfect obedience (Romans 4:1-5).
Yes, obedience to the Law; and the context shows it is specifically about circumcision.
The Example of Abraham
¶ What, then, are we to say about Abraham, our human ancestor? For if Abraham was justified by actions, he would have had something to boast about—though not before God. For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.” [Gen 15:6]
¶ Now to someone who works, wages are not considered a gift but an obligation. However, to someone who does not work, but simply believes in the one who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness. Likewise, David also speaks of the blessedness of the person whom God regards as righteous apart from actions:
¶ “How blessed are those whose iniquities are forgiven
and whose sins are covered!
¶ How blessed is the person whose sins
the Lord will never charge against him!” [Ps 32:1-2]
¶ Now does this blessedness come to the circumcised alone, or also to the uncircumcised? For we say, “Abraham’s faith was credited to him as righteousness.” [Gen 15:6] Under what circumstances was it credited? Was he circumcised or uncircumcised? He had not yet been circumcised, but was uncircumcised. Afterward he received the mark of circumcision as a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised. Therefore, he is the ancestor of all who believe while uncircumcised, in order that righteousness may be credited to them. He is also the ancestor of the circumcised—those who are not only circumcised, but who also walk in the footsteps of the faith that our father Abraham had before he was circumcised.
(Romans 4:1-12 ISV*)
 
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Xeno.of.athens

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¶ Now does this blessedness come to the circumcised alone, or also to the uncircumcised? For we say, “Abraham’s faith was credited to him as righteousness.” [Gen 15:6] Under what circumstances was it credited? Was he circumcised or uncircumcised? He had not yet been circumcised, but was uncircumcised. Afterward he received the mark of circumcision as a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised. Therefore, he is the ancestor of all who believe while uncircumcised, in order that righteousness may be credited to them. He is also the ancestor of the circumcised—those who are not only circumcised, but who also walk in the footsteps of the faith that our father Abraham had before he was circumcised.
Abraham was justified coram mundo, before the world, by his obedience, but he was justified coram deo, before God, according to his faith.
Saint Paul is asking about Abraham's justification apart from circumcision as a work of religious legal obedience to God; he poses the question, was it before or after Abraham obeyed what the Las Jews receive says, namely was he circumcised or not? That is what Abraham's "actions" are to be judged by, if one were to take the Jewish position, in that day and age. The argument in the beginning or Romans 4 is about circumcision as a requirement of the Law; it is an argument about being a Jew or not in order to be accounted as a righteous man.
 
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Soyeong

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Works of the Law basically, perhaps more intangibly, refers to a previous covenant. The New Covenant is not a covenant a human is born with. It is a covenant a human chooses with consent when growing up. A previous covenant on the other is born with. The Jews are given the Mosaic covenant. They need to act in accordance to what specified. This old covenant however won't be able to save them.

They (the Jews) need to act according to the 613 laws, at the same time they need to believe in Jesus to be saved. If they don't observe the 613 laws, they are not deemed as Jews in terms of Law and covenants. They made themselves gentiles. Gentiles then need to act in accordance to conscience, as demanded by gentiles' own previoius covenant (possibly Noah's covenant of rainbow). This won't save them though, they need to accept the New Covenant with consent in order to be saved, that is by believing in Jesus Christ.

On the other hand, the New Covenant is about a measurement of faith. We humans don't have the ability to judge how faith goes inside a human. Roughly however we can tell how well one sticks to the works of Law. We sin less and less as a reflection of how our faith goes. That's why faith without the works of Law is dead.
Please read post #6 in regard to why works of the law does not refer to the previous covenant, the wyay to be saved, and the way to have faith. God's law is God's word and Jesus is God's word made flesh, so us embodying God's word is the way to have faith in the one who is the embodiment of God's word, and it is contradictory for someone to have faith in God's word made flesh while not having faith in God's word.

Our conscience part of our fallen nature, so it is not perfect, which is why Paul said in 1 Corinthians 4:3 that he was not justified even though he was not aware of anything against himself. So our conscience helps us to live in accordance with the Law of God, but it does not replace it, and therefore is not the ultimate determiner of our spiritual condition. Our conscience is capable of warning us when our spiritual condition is in danger, but it is not God's law and needs to be informed by it in order to function correctly.

In Romans 14, there are weak Christians whose conscience is not informed in a mature way, where their conscience won't let them do what they really would be free to do, so again our conscience does not replace the Law of God. Someone's conscience can be so misinformed that their glory is in their shame (Philippians 3:19), where both their mind and their conscience are defiled (Titus 1:15). So the first way to destroy the work of conscience is to misinform it where you don't give it the true Law of God and the second way is to silence it when it speaks. In 1 Timothy 4:2, Paul spoke about a wounded or seared conscience, and a good indicator of this is if someone doesn't feel convicted about continuing to do what God has revealed in His law to be sin.
 
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HTacianas

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What are the works of the Law? Obedience to the Law of Moses leads to circumcision, assiduous following of rules of conduct, care to offer the right sacrifices, observance of religious rituals and feasts. But is kindness a work of the Law, or love, or compassion, or family loyalty, honesty and justice?

I'll give you an example of the works of the law. After Mary gave birth to Jesus she was required to give two turtle doves to the temple for her ritual impurity. If you notice, Christian women are not required to provide turtle doves for ritual impurity because they are "justified by faith apart from the works of the law", Galatians 2:16. Now, we are also continually justified by our works and not by faith only, James 2:24. So it is by faith and good works that we are justified, but not by the works of the law, for by the works of the law shall no man be justified, Galatians 2:16.
 
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Soyeong

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Yes, obedience to the Law; and the context shows it is specifically about circumcision.
The Example of Abraham
¶ What, then, are we to say about Abraham, our human ancestor? For if Abraham was justified by actions, he would have had something to boast about—though not before God. For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.” [Gen 15:6]
¶ Now to someone who works, wages are not considered a gift but an obligation. However, to someone who does not work, but simply believes in the one who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness. Likewise, David also speaks of the blessedness of the person whom God regards as righteous apart from actions:
¶ “How blessed are those whose iniquities are forgiven
and whose sins are covered!
¶ How blessed is the person whose sins
the Lord will never charge against him!” [Ps 32:1-2]
¶ Now does this blessedness come to the circumcised alone, or also to the uncircumcised? For we say, “Abraham’s faith was credited to him as righteousness.” [Gen 15:6] Under what circumstances was it credited? Was he circumcised or uncircumcised? He had not yet been circumcised, but was uncircumcised. Afterward he received the mark of circumcision as a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised. Therefore, he is the ancestor of all who believe while uncircumcised, in order that righteousness may be credited to them. He is also the ancestor of the circumcised—those who are not only circumcised, but who also walk in the footsteps of the faith that our father Abraham had before he was circumcised.
(Romans 4:1-12 ISV*)
Either Paul spoke only spoke against incorrect purposes for becoming circumcised as part of works of the law or according to Galatians 5:2, Paul caused Christ to be of no value to Timothy when he had him circumcised right after the Jerusalem Council (Acts 16:3) and Christ is of no value to roughly 80% of the men in the US. In Acts 15:1, a group of men from Judea were wanting to require all Gentiles to become circumcised in order to become saved, however, that was never the purpose for why God commanded circumcision, so the Jerusalem Council upheld God's law by correctly ruling against requiring circumcision for an incorrect reason. The Jerusalem Council did not have the authority to countermand God, so it is important to distinguish between circumcision for the correct purposes for which God commanded it an circumcision for incorrect purposes for which God did not command it in connection with works of the law in order to avoid making the mistake of interpreting servants of God as speaking against obeying God.
 
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Soyeong

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Abraham was justified coram mundo, before the world, by his obedience, but he was justified coram deo, before God, according to his faith.
While it is true that Abraham believed God, so he was justified (Genesis 15:6), it is also true that he believed God, so he obeyed God's command to offer Isaac (Hebrews 11:17), so the same faith by which he was justified was also express as being an obeyer of God, but he did not earn his justification as a wage (Romans 4:1-5). In James 2:21-24. it quotes Genesis 15:6 to support saying that Abraham was justified by his works when he offered Isaac, that his faith was active along with his works, and that his faith completed his works, so he was justified by his works insofar as they were an expression of his faith, but not insofar as they were earning a wage, so it is not the case that there are two different kinds of righteousness. Whoever practices righteousness is righteous even as they are righteous (1 John 3:7).
 
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Soyeong

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I'll give you an example of the works of the law. After Mary gave birth to Jesus she was required to give two turtle doves to the temple for her ritual impurity. If you notice, Christian women are not required to provide turtle doves for ritual impurity because they are "justified by faith apart from the works of the law", Galatians 2:16. Now, we are also continually justified by our works and not by faith only, James 2:24. So it is by faith and good works that we are justified, but not by the works of the law, for by the works of the law shall no man be justified, Galatians 2:16.
Please quote where the Bible uses that as an example of works of the law. None one earned their justification by giving two turtle doves because that was never command as a way of earning justification. In Romans 3:21-22, the only way to become righteous that is testified about in the Law and the Prophets is through faith in Christ.

There is a difference between the way to attain a character trait and what we are becoming when we attain a character trait. For example the only way to become courageous is through faith that we ought to be courageous and what we are becoming when we become courageous is someone who practices courageousness, and the same goes for becoming righteous. God's law was given as instructions for how to practice righteousness, not for how to become righteous. For example, God's law reveal that helping the poor is a way to practice righteousness, but no amount of helping the poor will ever result in someone becoming righteous because the only way to become righteous is through faith, so when God declares us to be righteous through faith that means he is declaring us to be someone who practices righteousness through that faith.
 
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HTacianas

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Please quote where the Bible uses that as an example of works of the law. None one earned their justification by giving two turtle doves because that was never command as a way of earning justification. In Romans 3:21-22, the only way to become righteous that is testified about in the Law and the Prophets is through faith in Christ.

There is a difference between the way to attain a character trait and what we are becoming when we attain a character trait. For example the only way to become courageous is through faith that we ought to be courageous and what we are becoming when we become courageous is someone who practices courageousness, and the same goes for becoming righteous. God's law was given as instructions for how to practice righteousness, not for how to become righteous. For example, God's law reveal that helping the poor is a way to practice righteousness, but no amount of helping the poor will ever result in someone becoming righteous because the only way to become righteous is through faith, so when God declares us to be righteous through faith that means he is declaring us to be someone who practices righteousness through that faith.

Well, we seem to disagree as to what works of the law are. Why don't you tell us what they are.
 
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Soyeong

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Well, we seem to disagree as to what works of the law are. Why don't you tell us what they are.
I think that it refers to a large body of Jewish oral laws, traditions, rulings, and fences existed in the 1st century that were being taught that people needed to obey in order to become justified. "Works of the law" is also used Qumran Text 4QMMT in accordance with that manner.
 
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HTacianas

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I think that it refers to a large body of Jewish oral laws, traditions, rulings, and fences existed in the 1st century that were being taught that people needed to obey in order to become justified. "Works of the law" is also used Qumran Text 4QMMT in accordance with that manner.

Can you give us some examples?
 
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Soyeong

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Can you give us some examples?
There are questions that naturally come up if a nation decides to put the Torah into practice. For example:

Numbers 15:38 “Speak to the people of Israel, and tell them to make tassels on the corners of their garments throughout their generations, and to put a cord of blue on the tassel of each corner.

This verse does not say anything about what shade of blue should be used, what other colors should be used, what to use to make the pigment, how long they should be, how many knots should be used, how to attach them to our garments, what to do if our garments don't have corners, and so forth, so these things got left up to tradition.

Leviticus 19:23-25 “When you come into the land and plant any kind of tree for food, then you shall regard its fruit as forbidden.[b] Three years it shall be forbidden to you; it must not be eaten. 24 And in the fourth year all its fruit shall be holy, an offering of praise to the Lord. 25 But in the fifth year you may eat of its fruit, to increase its yield for you: I am the Lord your God.

Someone might have planted trees on a hill that had fruit that rolled down the hill to mix with the fruit of trees that were planted during a different year, so someone had to make a ruling about what to do in that situation, which got passed down orally as case law.

In Esther 9:20-22, it creates the tradition of Purim and in John 10:21-22, Jesus celebrated Hanukkah, and in 1 Corinthians 11:2, 2 Thessalonians 2:15, and 2 Thessalonians 3:6, Paul gave Jewish traditionary laws, so there is nothing inherently wrong with following traditions, and in fact it can often be a good thing, but there is something wrong with people taking the position that we need to first follow the Torah according to their traditions in order to result in becoming saved.
 
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