Did Abraham observe the Sabbath day?

[oikonomia]

 

[oikonomia]

Jesus, But We See Jesus-from Hebrews 2:9-11.
Sing along with me.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

"I would have been clearer to you to write "dominion FOR God."
Dominion for God on behalf of God never means "without" God. Quite the contary.
Neither does express the invisible God according to His image and likeness neither means without God.

Hebrews expresses this purpose of God by comparing Adam (who failed) with Jesus (who is normal as a man through whom God is expressed)

For it was not to angels that He subjected the coming inhabited earth, concerning which we speak.
But one has solemnly testified somewhere, saying, “What is man, that You bring him to mind? Or the son of man, that You care for him?
You have made Him a little inferior to the angels; You have crowned Him with glory and honor and have set Him over the works of Your hands; You have subjected all things under His feet.” For in subjecting all things to Him, He left nothing unsubject to Him.

He is quoting Psalm 8 about the creation of man and God's purpose for it.
Then the writer speaks of how as Adam lost Christ has overcome to recover.

But now we do not yet see all things subjected to Him,
But we see Jesus, who was made a little inferior to the angels because of the suffering of death,
crowned with glory and honor, so that by the grace of God He might taste death on behalf of everything.
For it was fitting for Him, for whom are all things and through whom are all things, in leading many sons into glory, to make the Author of their salvation perfect through sufferings. (vs. 8c-10)


Yes it is. But this understanding is in light of the much of the rest of the Bible.
He was satisfied.
The one needed thing was for Adam to eat of the tree of life.
He was placed in the garden to guard it. Which he failed at when the serpent usurped Adam and his wife
bringing them from a neutral and innocent position to a position under the authority of darkness.

Do not complain that all of this is not so specifically shown in Genesis chapter one.
Neither is the identity of the serpent specifically stated om Genesis one or two.

Just as we are revealed more from God latter in the pages of the Bible concerning the serpent
So are we are refealed more from God latter in its pages about the nature of God's rest.
So also what the "tree of life" really points to as God coming into man, needs further in the Bible to understand.

And the word of God speaking of the theocratic nation of God, a nations of priests entering into conquer the enemies of
God in Canaan, to establish a kingdom, with a city, and a temple in the city a Sabbath rest.

For there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of Go.

For if Joshua had brought them into rest, He would not have spoken concerning another day after these things.
So then there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God.

For he who has entered into His rest has himself also rested from his works, as God did from His own.
Let us therefore be diligent to enter into that rest lest anyone fall after the same example of disobedience. (Heb. 4:8-11)

The Sabbath rest then entails more that is apparent by worshipping on the 7th day.

We need to be careful as new testament believers to realize the bigger picture of God's eternal purpose
was not fully made known to the sons of men until the new testament apostles and prophets received revelation.

For truly I say to you that many prophets and righteous men have desired to perceive the things that you see, and have not perceived them, and to hear the things that you hear, and have not heard them. (Matt. 13:17)

By which, in reading it, you can perceive my understanding in the mystery of Christ,
Which in other generations was not made known to the sons of men, as it has now been revealed to His holy apostles and prophets in spirit,
(Eph. 3:4,5)

Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel, that is, the proclamation of Jesus Christ,
according to the revelation of the mystery, which has been kept in silence in the times of the ages
But has now been manifested, (Rom. 16:25,26a)


There is the need that the eyes of our hearts be enlightened that we may know the unsearchable depths of God's economy.
Then we can compare clear words with other clear words with others. And also we can consider the experience of many
who are qualified to help lead us into deeper insight and deeper experience.

The Apostle Paul -
. . . making mention of you in my prayers,
That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory,
may give to you a spirit of wisdom and revelation in the full knowledge of Him,
The eyes of your heart having been enlightened, that you may know what is the hope of His calling,
and what are the riches of the glory of His inheritance in the saints, (Eph. 1:16b-18)

Jesus is on every page of the bible, so you're making an argument I'm not making. It doesn't mean we can interpret the clear Word to mean something it doesn't say. Scripture tells us not to do that Pro 3:5-6

Like I said, we are way too far apart of our interpterion's and there's a lot of scripture being ignored to make fit one of the commandments of God was changed in Hebrews 4, when we do not even know who the author is and so many misunderstand this passage. God wrote the Ten Commandments in easy to read and understand verses, if He was going to do away or change one of His finger-written commandments, it would be in the same manner given. I hope it works out well for you and I wish you well in seeking Truth to God's Word. We will have to agree to disagree and it will get sorted out soon enough.

 

[oikonomia]

Jesus is on every page of the bible,

I said otherwise where ??

so you're making an argument I'm not making. It doesn't mean we can interpret the clear Word to mean something it doesn't say. Scripture tells us not to do that Pro 3:5-6

Proverbs , also God breathed and profitable for teaching, correction, instruction in righteousness.
This book ALSO tells of the path of the righteous being like the encreasing light of the dawning sun.

But the path of the righteous is like the light of dawn, / Which shines brighter and brighter until the full day. (Prov. 4:18)

Like I said, we are way too far apart of our interpterion's and there's a lot of scripture being ignored to make fit one of the commandments of God was changed in Hebrews 4, when we do not even know who the author is

It is probably purposeful to God that the author is not explicitly mentioned.
So ofter the book's point is the the Scripture is the speaking of the Spirit of God. That is what counts the most.

I think Paul wrote it.
Who else had so much insight into the Hebrew Bible.
And he mentions Timothy.
And he apparent does not stand upon his "office" as an apostle ( if it is Paul ).
But comes to the audience quite on the level of being simply a fellow brother. Mature he is, but much on their own level.

and so many misunderstand this passage. God wrote the Ten Commandments in easy to read and understand verses,

I didn't say it is not easy to read.
I say the revelation of God's economy us unfolding over the ages.
And we need to keep up with His current speaking.

Quite a problem was caused by some lingering in the past revelation.
The Gospels, Acts, Galatians, Second Corinthians, Hebrews, speak much how this caused them to oppose the new covenant.
Or they added "leavening" corruption in with the fine flour.

Here in Second Corinthians Paul speaks of those who had the plain words of the Torah read to
then weekly, nonetheless had a veil over their heart and spiritual eyes.
They needed to TURN their hearts to the Lord who is the Spirit in the new covenant.

But their thoughts were hardened; for until the present day the same veil remains at the reading of the old covenant, it not being unveiled to them that the veil is being done away with in Christ.
Indeed unto this day, whenever Moses is read, a veil lies on their heart;
But whenever their heart turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. (2 Cor. 3:14-16)

May the Lord allow us to turn our hearts ever towards the living Person of the Spirit within the Christians now.

And the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom.
But we all with unveiled face, beholding and reflecting like a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, even as from the Lord Spirit. (vs. 17,18)

if He was going to do away or change one of His finger-written commandments, it would be in the same manner given. I hope it works out well for you and I wish you well in seeking Truth to God's Word. We will have to agree to disagree and it will get sorted out soon enough.

You do agree that the word of God says that we have been made dead to the law that we may bear fruit unto God?

So then, my brothers, you also have been made dead to the law through the body of Christ so that you might be joined to another, to Him who has been raised from the dead, that we might bear fruit to God. (Rom. 7:4)

Hey, that's what the Bible says.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

You do agree that the word of God says that we have been made dead to the law that we may bear fruit unto God?

So then, my brothers, you also have been made dead to the law through the body of Christ so that you might be joined to another, to Him who has been raised from the dead, that we might bear fruit to God. (Rom. 7:4)

Hey, that's what the Bible says.

Yes, we can make the bible say anything by selectively using text out of context, but it doesn't mean we are following God's Word. Paul is contrasting the law of sin with the law of God- keep reading. Paul is not teaching we do not have to keep God's law- he says it plainly it is what matters. 1 Cor 7:19. No one has the authority to undermined God's commandments- God did not leave His holy commandments to be written by man, they were divinely written by God Exo 31:18 Exo 32:16 kept inside the ark of the covenant in the Most Holy of God's Temple under His mercy seat and the earthy temple was a replica of God's heavenly Temple Hebrews 8:1-4. The Ten Commandments defines sin when broken Romans 7:7 and if we break one, we break them all James 2:10-12. No law, no need for Jesus, so I will have to respectfully disagree.

 

[oikonomia]

Yes, we can make the bible say anything by selectively using text out of context,

In no word in that passage did I make the Bible say something that it doesn'r say.
I can say that I understand by personal experience what Paul means in that verse.

So then, my brothers, you also have been made dead to the law through the body of Christ so that you might be joined to another, to Him who has been raised from the dead, that we might bear fruit to God.

And not only myself, but many others of the Lord's church.
And it was not cheaply or instantly we grasped the truth of the passage.

but it doesn't mean we are following God's Word. Paul is contrasting the law of sin with the law of God- keep reading.

No sir. Not in THAT verse. In some other verses YES.
In THAT verse the contrast is between serving the law of Torah with serving the resurrected Son of God to whom
the believer is JOINED.

It seems that you want to tell me that it is impossible to bear fruit unto God without being under the law of God.
If righteousness is by being under the law then Christ, Paul says, has died in vain.

I do not nullify the grace of God; for if righteousness is through law, then Christ has died for nothing. (Gal. 2:21)

Paul is not teaching we do not have to keep God's law-

The word of God is teaching that to learn to walk by the Spirit the righteous requirement of the law can be fulfilled.

That the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the spirit. (Rom. 8:4)

That is to bear fruit to God. And it is not by being under the law of God but living by the grace which is with our innermost being, our human spirit.

He desired not to be found in his own righteousness which was of the law, but in the righteousness of God based on faith.
That is the ever encreasing never ending trust the Jesus in us is everything we need, and everything God requires.

And be found in Him, not having my own righteousness which is out of the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is out of God and based on faith, (Phil. 3:9)

he says it plainly it is what matters. 1 Cor 7:19.

We went through that before, ie. the commandments of the indwelling Spirit of life.
We should discuss something we agree on like all the wonderful things said in Psalm 119.
I see it through the eyes of New Testament grace - the power of His person not only OVER me but in me.

Paul's final word written in the NT is in Second Timothy. It is like him telling Timothy, whatever happens never ever forget
that the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ is with your spirit. There in your spirit is the RIghteous One who lives in you in a mingled way.

The Lord be with your spirit. Grace be with you. (2 Tim. 4:22)

Do not think "Paul you're an embarresment to us. You should have said to never forget that we are obligated to be under the law of God just like the Israelites at the foot of Mt. Sinai."

Paul's final word before his martyrdom was that the living Person of the Lord Jesus was the grace with us.
Mind you now, in the same closing epistle he says that he expects before the judgment seat of Christ to be
awarded the crown of RIGHTEOUSSNESS. Meaning his conscience testifies that he lived righteously through the empowering
of inward grace. He learned indeed to bear fruit to God.

I have fought the good fight; I have finished the course; I have kept the faith.
Henceforth there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, with which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will recompense me in that day, and not only me but also all those who have loved His appearing. (2 Tim. 4:8)

No one has the authority to undermined God's commandments-

Less so has anyone authority to undermine the power of the grace of Christ.
That goes for you or I too.

If you are building up a Seventh Day Adventist Church go back and tell them so.

God did not leave His holy commandments to be written by man,

God sent the new testament apostles to teach us to abide in the resurrected Christ as the living grace.

I have written to you briefly, exhorting and testifying fully that this is the true grace of God; enter into this grace and stand in it. (1 Pet. 5:12)

Through whom also we have obtained access by faith into this grace in which we stand and boast because of the hope of the glory of God. (Romans 5:2)

Let us therefore come forward with boldness to the throne of grace that we may receive mercy and find grace for timely help. (Heb. 4:16)

they were divinely written by God Exo 31:18

I never said otherwise.

Exo 32:16 kept inside the ark of the covenant in the Most Holy of God's Temple under His mercy seat and the earthy temple was a replica of God's heavenly Temple Hebrews 8:1-4.

Yes.

The Ten Commandments defines sin when broken Romans 7:7 and if we break one, we break them all James 2:10-12. No law, no need for Jesus, so I will have to respectfully disagree.

Yes. The law was added to not only expose transgression but to even cause it to abound.

And the law entered in alongside that the offense might abound; but where sin abounded, grace has superabounded,
In order that just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness unto eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
(Rom. 5:20,21)

 

[SabbathBlessings]

In no word in that passage did I make the Bible say something that it doesn'r say.
I can say that I understand by peronal experience what Paul means in that verse.

So then, my brothers, you also have been made dead to the law through the body of Christ so that you might be joined to another, to Him who has been raised from the dead, that we might bear fruit to God.

And not only myself, but many others of the Lord's church.
And it was not cheaply or instantly we grasped the truth of the passage.

No sir. Not in THAT verse. In some other verses YES.
In THAT verse the contrast is between serving the law of Torah with serving the the resurrection Son of God to whom
the believer is JOINED.

It seems that you want to tell me that it is impossible to bear fruit unto God without being under the law of God.
If righteousness is by being under the law then Christ, Paul says, has died in vain.

I do not nullify the grace of God; for if righteousness is through law, then Christ has died for nothing. (Gal. 2:21)

The word of God is teaching that to learn to walk by the Spirit the righteous requirement of the law can be fulfilled.

That the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the spirit. (Rom. 8:4)

That is to bear fruit to God. And it is not by being under the law of God but living by the grace which is with our innermost being, our human spirit.

He desired not to be found in his own righteousness which was of the law, but in the righteousness of God based on faith.
That is the ever encreasing never ending trust the Jesus in us is everything we need, and everything God requires.

And be found in Him, not having my own righteousness which is out of the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is out of God and based on faith, (Phil. 3:9)


We went through that before, ie. the commandments of the indwelling Spirit of life.
We should discuss something we agree on like all the wonderful things said in Psalm 119.
I see it through the eyes of New Testament grace - the power of His person not only OVER me but in me.

Paul's final word written in the NT is in Second Timothy. It is like him telling Timothy, whatever happens never ever forget
that the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ is with your spirit. There in your spirit is the RIghteous One who lives in you in a mingled way.

The Lord be with your spirit. Grace be with you. (2 Tim. 4:22)

Do not think "Paul you're an embarresment to us. You should have said to never forget that we are obligated to be under the law of God just like the Israelites at the foot of Mt. Sinai."

Paul's final word before his martyrdom was that the living Person of the Lord Jesus was the grace with us.
Mind you now, in the same closing epistle he says that he expects before the judgment seat of Christ to be
awarded the crown of RIGHTEOUSSNESS. Meaning his conscience testifies that he lived rigteously through the empowering
of inward grace. He learned indeed to bear fruit to God.

I have fought the good fight; I have finished the course; I have kept the faith.
Henceforth there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, with which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will recompense me in that day, and not only me but also all those who have loved His appearing. (2 Tim. 4:8)


Less so has anyone authority to undermine the power of the grace of Christ.
That goes for you or I too.

If you are building up a Seventh Day Adventist Church go back and tell them so.

God sent the new testament apostles to teach us to abide in the resurrected Christ as the living grace.

I have written to you briefly, exhorting and testifying fully that this is the true grace of God; enter into this grace and stand in it. (1 Pet. 5:12)

Through whom also we have obtained access by faith into this grace in which we stand and boast because of the hope of the glory of God. (Romans 5:2)

Let us therefore come forward with boldness to the throne of grace that we may receive mercy and find grace for timely help. (Heb. 4:16)


I never said otherwise.

Yes.


Yes. The law was added to not only expose transgression but to even cause it to abound.

And the law entered in alongside that the offense might abound; but where sin abounded, grace has superabounded,
In order that just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness unto eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
(Rom. 5:20,21)

Ok, we will have to agree to disagree. The law that was added was not the Ten Commandments- that is the law thats always been as it defines what sin is even in the NT Romans 7:7 so is not the law that was added because of sin, that was a different law that pointed to Jesus- the sacrificial system. The Ten Commandments are what we will be judged by James 2:10-12 regardless of peoples objection to them, but better to embrace now while we can as we are told not to cover our sins Pro 28:13. You say you do not take things out of context, but quote Romans 8:4- but don’t continue on to Romans 8:7 which seems to be in contradiction with your understanding of this verse and other verses in Romans. There's too many things out of context or the wrong law being referred to, but I think we have been through this enough to know neither of us our changing our minds anytime soon. Keep praying about it, I’ll do the same. Thanks for the chat. Take care!

 

[oikonomia]

The law that was added was not the Ten Commandments-

This is written mostly for some interested in how I might reply.
I do not wish to over weary SabbathBlessings when he wants to stop debating about it for now.

To what was the law added?
Did Paul mean that the law was somehow added to the Ten Commandments? No.
He meant the giving of the Ten Commandments WAS the adding of the law to the PROMISE to Abraham and his seed.

Why then the law? It was added because of the transgressions until the seed should come to whom the promise was made, (Gal. 3:19)
The promise [or promises] was given to "father Abraham" and to his seed. (His seed individually Christ and collectively the Body of Christ).

Paul immediately goes on to circumvent preemptively any suspicion that the law was against that to which it was added.

Is then the law against the promises of God? Absolutely not! (v. 21a)

To what was the Law at Mt. Sinai added? It was added to the promise given to Abraham and his seed.

But to Abraham were the promises spoken and to his seed. (Gal. 3:16a)
. . . the law? It was added . . . to whom the promise was made. (v.19)
The law was not in the orgination of God's economy. It was added while God's economy was proceeding because of man's transgressions,
until the seed, Christ, should come to whom God's promise was made. Since it was added because of man's transgressions, it should be deducted when those transgressions are taken away. And since Christ, the seed, has come, the law must be terminated.

that is the law thats always been as it defines what sin is even in the NT Romans 7:7 so is not the law that was added because of sin, that was a different law that pointed to Jesus- the sacrificial system.

In Romans Paul speaks about plural "sins" up to Romans 5:11. Starting at Romans 5:12 he begins the section of his epistle on
the NATURE of SIN. FIrst he deals with SINS [plural] in his section on Justification.
Then he shifts to talk about the underlying NATURE of SIN [singular] that came into the world through Adam.

Therefore just as through one man sin entered into the world, and through sin, death; and thus death passed on to all men because all have sinned — ( 5:12)

The law exposes the nature of SIN [singular]. In the whole 7th chapter he explains this nature of sin is a personified person, Satan himself.
It [or he] deceives, takes opportunity, kills, and acts as a purposeful rebel in the body of man, rising up on general principle to pull man
down from obeying the commandments of the law. That law man delights in the mind of the religious man striving to keep it.

For I do not do the good which I will; but the evil which I do not will, this I practice.
But if what I do not will, this I do, it is no longer I that work it out but sin that dwells in me.

I find then the law, with me who wills to do the good, because the evil is present with me.
For I delight in the law of God according to the inner man, (Rom. 7:19-22)

The law was added to expose not just transgressions but the SIN nature.
In the Levitical offerings there was the Tresspass Offering and the Sin Offering.
These signify Christ taking care of both the individual offenses and the nature which cannot but lead to offenses.

On the section on Sanctification (Romans 5:12 through 8:13 ) Paul deals with mostly the nature of [singular] sin.
The added law contained both the moral commandments AND the sacrificial systems to account for the breaking of them.

Romans 5:13 therefore says the NATURE of sin was in the world since Adam's fall. But the NATURE of sin was not
charged to anyone's account until the Law was given.

For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not charged to one’s account when there is no law. (Rom. 5:13)

There were indeed offenses against God. But the law came along from God, added, to thoroughly expose the nature.
The nature of sin had to be exposed before the dire need for grace to be seen. Grace is God being everything for us that we need.
It is not simple "unmerited favor." It is the power of His divine life mingled into our lives in an organic union.

And the law entered in alongside that the offense might abound; but where sin abounded, grace has superabounded, (Rom. 5:20)

Again the pivotal passage in the Gospel of Christ as life to His believers contrasting Grace vs Law.

For of His fullness we have all received, and grace upon grace.
For the law was given through Moses; grace and reality came through Jesus Christ.

It is not the law was given through Moses. Then Jesus Christ came and gave the law again.
It is through Moses the law of God was given. In Christ, with Christ, grace and reality is available to man.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

This is written mostly for some interested in how I might reply.
I do not wish to over weary SabbathBlessings when he wants to stop debating about it for now.

To what was the law added?
Did Paul mean that the law was somehow added to the Ten Commandments? No.
He meant the giving of the Ten Commandments WAS the adding of the law to the PROMISE to Abraham and his seed.

Why then the law? It was added because of the transgressions until the seed should come to whom the promise was made, (Gal. 3:19)
The promise [or promises] was given to "father Abraham" and to his seed. (His seed individually Christ and collectively the Body of Christ).

Paul immediately goes on to circumvent preemptively any suspicion that the law was against that to which it was added.

Is then the law against the promises of God? Absolutely not! (v. 21a)

To what was the Law at Mt. Sinai added? It was added to the promise given to Abraham and his seed.

But to Abraham were the promises spoken and to his seed. (Gal. 3:16a)
. . . the law? It was added . . . to whom the promise was made. (v.19)
The law was not in the orgination of God's economy. It was added while God's economy was proceeding because of man's transgressions,
until the seed, Christ, should come to whom God's promise was made. Since it was added because of man's transgressions, it should be deducted when those transgressions are taken away. And since Christ, the seed, has come, the law must be terminated.


In Romans Paul speaks about plural "sins" up to Romans 5:11. Starting at Romans 5:12 he begins the section of his epistle on
the NATURE of SIN. FIrst he deals with SINS [plural] in his section on Justification.
Then he shifts to talk about the underlying NATURE of SIN [singular] that came into the world through Adam.

Therefore just as through one man sin entered into the world, and through sin, death; and thus death passed on to all men because all have sinned — ( 5:12)

The law exposes the nature of SIN [singular]. In the whole 7th chapter he explains this nature of sin is a personified person, Satan himself.
It [or he] deceives, takes opportunity, kills, and acts as a purposeful rebel in the body of man, rising up on general principle to pull man
down from obeying the commandments of the law. That law man delights in the mind of the religious man striving to keep it.

For I do not do the good which I will; but the evil which I do not will, this I practice.
But if what I do not will, this I do, it is no longer I that work it out but sin that dwells in me.

I find then the law, with me who wills to do the good, because the evil is present with me.
For I delight in the law of God according to the inner man, (Rom. 7:19-22)

The law was added to expose not just transgressions but the SIN nature.
In the Levitical offerings there was the Tresspass Offering and the Sin Offering.
These signify Christ taking care of both the individual offenses and the nature which cannot but lead to offenses.

On the section on Sanctification (Romans 5:12 through 8:13 ) Paul deals with mostly the nature of [singular] sin.
The added law contained both the moral commandments AND the sacrificial systems to account for the breaking of them.

Romans 5:13 therefore says the NATURE of sin was in the world since Adam's fall. But the NATURE of sin was not
charged to anyone's account until the Law was given.

For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not charged to one’s account when there is no law. (Rom. 5:13)

There were indeed offenses against God. But the law came along from God, added, to thoroughly expose the nature.
The nature of sin had to be exposed before the dire need for grace to be seen. Grace is God being everything for us that we need.
It is not simple "unmerited favor." It is the power of His divine life mingled into our lives in an organic union.

And the law entered in alongside that the offense might abound; but where sin abounded, grace has superabounded, (Rom. 5:20)

Again the pivotal passage in the Gospel of Christ as life to His believers contrasting Grace vs Law.

For of His fullness we have all received, and grace upon grace.
For the law was given through Moses; grace and reality came through Jesus Christ.

It is not the law was given through Moses. Then Jesus Christ came and gave the law again.
It is through Moses the law of God was given. In Christ, with Christ, grace and reality is available to man.

Perhaps you can walk me though your logic because I’m not following.

You claim the Ten Commandments is the law that was added because of transgressions but the Ten can’t be the law that defines sin when broken and also be the law that was added because of sin. The Sabbath started before sin Exo 20:11 so it would be an impossible argument to make that the Ten was added because of sin.

There is a law that is also in heaven that defines sin when broken. Lucifer sinned from the beginning, meaning he broke God’s law. No law, no sin Romans 4:15 Adam and Eve sinned, so there had to be God’s law in the Garden. Cain sinned when he murdered Abel which law says thou shalt not murder- so God’s Commandments had to exist before given in Mt Sinai.

Scripture clearly tells us the Ten Commandments is the law that defines sin Romans 7:7 and what we will be judged by James 2:10-12.

Since you seem to be in disagreement with these scriptures- can you point to the law from scripture that defines sin? If there is no law, there is no transgression so walk me though how the Ten Commandments is not the law that defines sin, but instead was added because of sin. Remember Cain killed Abel and God said it was sin- no law no sin- what law did thou shalt not murder come from? It was during the time of Cain and Abel, which does not fit the time theory it was added four hundred thirty years later. Scripture also tells us the law was added until the Seed shall come. Does that mean when Jesus came we can now worship other gods, vain His holy name, bow to false images, covet, murder, steal and lie or break any of the commandments of God? If so, can you please provide me this scripture. Jesus seemed to indicate something different. Mat 15:3-9, Mat 19:17-19, Mat 5:19-30 Thanks.

 

[oikonomia]

Perhaps you can walk me though your logic because I’m not following.

God knows everything. But He takes time to reveal to man so that man knows as well.
The process of time is used by God not for Him to learn something, but for Him to bring man to realize something.

You claim the Ten Commandments is the law that was added because of transgressions

I claim? The Scripture claims this-
Why then the law? It was added because of the transgressions . . . (Galatians 3:19)
We may differ on how best to interpret this. But I did not claim it. The New Testament claimed it.

but the Ten can’t be the law that defines sin when broken and also be the law that was added because of sin.

God knows perfectly what sin is. I said what God knows man may not. God uses the process of time in which He unfolds to
man something. When God asked Adam - "Where are you?" it was to help Adam realize his state. God knew. He helps man to realize.
Think of the giving of the law God helping mankind realize where he is. Man does not realize the extent of his problem.

The Sabbath started before sin Exo 20:11 so it would be an impossible argument to make that the Ten was added because of sin.

Who wrote this, me or God's apostle?
Why then the law? It was added because of the transgressions . . . (Galatians 3:19)
In this regard your argument must be with the New Testament. Are you saying this sentence should not be in the Bible?

It is obvious that Paul was not saying there were no transgressions against God before the law "entered."
And the law entered in alongside . . . (Rom.5:20)

You may be arguing that as long as God was the law of God was - from eternity.
That may be said since it is the Testimony of His nature.

But the Bible says it was added. It also said it entered.
I think it helps to keep in mind what I stated. God knows all things. He unfolds His economy so that mankind may be
made to know. In that process things are added and things enter.

There is a law that is also in heaven that defines sin when broken.

I do not transfer Paul's explanations about the salvation of man that much into Lucifer's sinning in heaven.

Adam sinned. Cain sinned. Those who die even who did not sin in the likeness of Adam's transgression, sinned.
And of course Satan the source of rebellion against God sinned. The Bible tells us all this.

You have a problem with the Bible if you mean to say because we are told of sins committed Paul should not have written what he wrote.
Why then the law? It was added because of the transgressions . . . (Galatians 3:19)

You should not complain that I claim this. What can we do but pray and try to understand?
Because of transgressions the law was added. "But that is a chicken and egg problem!" you imply.

What can we do but say Amen to what was written.
"But Lucifer sinned. But Adam sinned. But Cain sinned."
Yes, but the Apostle Paul wrote anyway " . . . the law? It was added because of the transgressions . . . "

I tried to explain that the law exposes the nature of [singular] sin in fallen man.
That is what Romans appears to be saying.

Try to remember. What God knows full well, He uses the passage of time and the unfolding of truth that man would also realize.

Lucifer sinned from the beginning, meaning he broke God’s law.

I do not push the discussion of Justification and Sanctification in the letter to the churches to
gain complete insight into Satan's history. The gospel of God is the good news for man here in this book.

. . . the gospel of God, Which He promised beforehand through His prophets in the holy Scriptures, (Rom. 1:2)

If it leaves us with some mysteries about the origin of Satan we should not be too clever, trying to find logical problems
with the Gospel of God to humanity.

No law, no sin Romans 4:15 Adam and Eve sinned, so there had to be God’s law in the Garden. Cain sinned when he murdered Abel which law says thou shalt not murder- so God’s Commandments had to exist before given in Mt Sinai.

The section starting with Romans 5:12 goes to the root of the problem of the nature of sin [singular].
It is obviously not saying all men were innocent of transgressions before the law was given.

If you have another interpretation of the law being added because of transgressions, you explain.
But don't say I said it not the Bible.

God knew about the nature that infested Adam and his descendents.
God caused the law to enter and be added to help us realize what He knew.

Scripture clearly tells us the Ten Commandments is the law that defines sin Romans 7:7 and what we will be judged by James 2:10-12.

I wrote a long post about James but did not fight to save it when I had some technical glitches.

If you mean sin nature is not defined in the universe at all if there is no law of God, I would repeat yet again.
God knows what sins are. God knows what sin is. God knows from eternity. God takes time to cause
His economy of salvation to be gradually unfolded to man to reveal to man what God knows.

That is how I would regard Romans 7:7.
What then shall we say? Is the law sin? Absolutely not! But I did not know sin except through the law; for neither did I know coveting, except the law had said, “You shall not covet.”

I think you may be being overly clever to argue with Romans because that seems like a circular problem logically.
Are you saying Paul needed your help to understand the Old Testament?
Are you saying Paul ought not to have written "But I did not know sin except through the law; for neither did I know coveting, except the law had said, “You shall not covet.”?

Next time you write 13 books of the New Testament's 27 you can write what you think should be taught.
A little cheeky. But maybe you see my point.

Since you seem to be in disagreement with these scriptures- can you point to the law from scripture that defines sin?

I do not disagree with the books the of the New Testament. Deeper experience and insight into them I expect will be
a life long matter.

God knows what the definition of sin and sins is from eternity.
He caused the law to enter and be added to help people like Paul to know. And people like the rest of us.

I do not believe that Romans 7:7 was the wrong thing for God's apostle to write.
I do not disagree with it.
I think James's reference to "the law of freedom" is a discussion as to what he meant.

James a very pious man was not as clear about the new testament economy as Paul was.
He is an important figure in the early church life showing the difficulty in the historical transition from the old
covenant to the new. That a godly man reveals these tensions is understandable.

James has his portion of one book in the NT canon.
And Paul has his portion of not one but thirteen books.

If there is no law, there is no transgression so walk me though how the Ten Commandments is not the law that defines sin, but instead was added because of sin. Remember Cain killed Abel

I remember Cain killed Abel.
What is interesting to me is that what God told Cain is very much like Paul's diagnosis in Romans 7.
Paul describes sin nature as a personified person acting deliberately against God's law on general principle.

A window into this is seen when God says to Cain -
If you do well, will not your countenance be lifted up? And if you do not do well, sin is crouching at the door; and his desire is for you, but you must rule over him. (Gen. 4:7)

I was helped by being taught that the seeds of all the truths in the Bible can be located somewhere is Genesis.
That really helped me. And it still does. The major truths latter disclosed more fully in the Bible
can be found in seed form in this first book Genesis.

and God said it was sin- no law no sin- what law did thou shalt not murder come from?

Utlimately we see through Paul's revelation that it came from the nature of sin.
The nature of sin being exposed is the word of the law which entered, which was added.

Romans clearly speaks of transgressions before that law was given.

But death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned after the likeness of Adam’s transgression, who is a type of Him who was to come. (Rom. 5:14)

Just before verse 14 he writes in verse 13 about "until the law" and how that came in to play for man's accountability.

For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not charged to one’s account when there is no law. (v.13)

Putting "until Moses" with "until the law" he must be speaking of the coming of the law being through Moses.
It may be paradoxical to fully grasp his teaching.
Please let us not imply that he needed to sit at our feet to have us explain to him a bit more about the OT.

I can walk through some of this. The law from Moses entered one day to help expose how deep the
nature of this SIN is in the descendents of Adam. It did a terrific job.

It was during the time of Cain and Abel, which does not fit the time theory it was added four hundred thirty years later.

The four hundred and thirty years latter was in reference not to Adam's life but a covenant ratified to Abraham.

And I say this: A covenant previously ratified by God, the law, having come four hundred and thirty years after, does not annul so as to make the promise of none effect. (Gal.3:17)

That is all for tonight.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

I claim? The Scripture claims this-
Why then the law? It was added because of the transgressions . . . (Galatians 3:19)
We may differ on how best to interpret this. But I did not claim it. The New Testament claimed it.

I'm not sure if you are aware but not every time, we see the word "law" it automatically means the Ten Commandments. God gave many laws, ordinances, statues and commandments Neh 9:13 and context dictates which law is being referred to, not us.

The Ten Commandments can't be the law that was added because of sin and the law that defines sin- this is a contradiction and as shown previously, God said it was sin for Cain to murder Abel - where there is no law there is no sin Rom 4:15 so there had to be God's Ten Commandments before given to the Nation of Israel. Just like God said in the Sabbath commandment Exo 20:11 - the Sabbath started in Eden- which was before sin, so your interpetation of the scriptures does not seem to reconcile with the rest of God's Word.

God knows perfectly what sin is. I said what God knows man may not.

So you think we serve a God who tells us not to sin, is going to convict us of sin Heb 10:26 and the condemnation of sin is death Romans 6:23 but God is not going to define what sin is? We must be serving different gods.

Sin is the transgression of the law 1 John 3:4 and the law being quoted from to define what sin is when broken is the Ten Commandments Romans 7:7 God does not leave sin undefined; people may be in delusion that God does, but the reality is something completely different if one is being honest with the scriptures.

Who wrote this, me or God's apostle?
Why then the law? It was added because of the transgressions . . . (Galatians 3:19)
In this regard your argument must be with the New Testament. Are you saying this sentence should not be in the Bible?

Never did I say that but your interpretation is not in reconciliation with God's Word.

Gal 3:19 What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was appointed through angels by the hand of a mediator.

As shown previously, the Ten Commandments was already in existence in Eden, before trangression, so this can't be referring to the Ten Commandments. Also note, the Ten Commandments are kept for God's people until the Second Coming Rev 22:14-15 and Jesus taught to keep the Ten Commandments quoting directly from this unit of Ten often telling us to not break the least of the commandments Mat 5:19-30 so anyone who is being honest with these scriptures knows this is not referring to the Ten Commandments.

This is obviously referring to the ceremonial sacrificial law that all pointed to Jesus because He became our Sacrificial Lamb (Passover) 1 Corinthians 5:7 Heb 10:1-22. So instead of sacrificing animals for the forgiveness of sin (breaking God's law 1 John 3:4, Romans 7:7) We can go directly to Jesus when we confess our sins and repent, which means we have a change in heart and a change in our path. Jesus even helps us keep the commandments if we want to obey Him, He changes us from the inside out so we want to obey through love and faith. Rom 3:31 1 John 5:3.

That is how I would regard Romans 7:7.
What then shall we say? Is the law sin? Absolutely not! But I did not know sin except through the law; for neither did I know coveting, except the law had said, “You shall not covet.”

I think you may be being overly clever to argue with Romans because that seems like a circular problem logically.
Are you saying Paul needed your help to understand the Old Testament?
Are you saying Paul ought not to have written "But I did not know sin except through the law; for neither did I know coveting, except the law had said, “You shall not covet.”?

Well I choose to believe the scriptures just as they are written. This is an easy one "But I did not know sin except through the law; for neither did I know coveting, except the law had said, “You shall not covet.”?

Means exactly what is stated. This is the law that defines sin. God did not leave His moral law up to man to write. God did with His own finger Exo 31:18 Exo 32:16 written so clear even an eight-year-old could understand.

Next time you write the 13 books of the New Testament you can write what you think should be taught.
A little cheeky. But maybe you see my point.

You might consider your own advice.

I think James's reference to "the law of freedom" is a discussion as to what he meant.

Agreed. Keeping the Ten Commandments is the law of freedom (liberty) because it means we have overcome the bondage of sin.

We are either a slave to sin or a slave to God one path leads to death, the other righteousness Romans 6:16 all of God's commandments are righteous Psa 119:172 and Truth Psa 119:151 and God's ways are above our ways- our version of righteousness means nothing.

James clearly states quoting and contrasting from the unit of Ten that God placed together that no man has authority to add to or subtract from Deut 4:2 says if we break one of these commandments- we break them all.

James 2:10 For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all. 11 For He who said, “Do not commit adultery,” also said, “Do not murder.” Now if you do not commit adultery, but you do murder, you have become a transgressor of the law. 12 So speak and so do as those who will be judged by the law of liberty

The He who said is God and you can find exactly what James is quoting from here Exodus 20 The same unit of Ten Jesus quotes from saying not to break the least of the commandments Mat 5:19-30. All NT teachings. God's people keep God's commandments Rev 14:12 because He wants us free of the bondage of sin and walking with Him. Jesus came to save us from our sins Mat 1:21 not in them. If we love Jesus we keep His commandments and He gives us His Spirit John 14:15-18 those in His Spirit are not an enmity to God’s law Rom 8:7

 

[oikonomia]

I'm not sure if you are aware but not every time, we see the word "law" it automatically means the Ten Commandments.

If by this time you have not observed that I realize the word "law" takes on various meanings in Romans,
I am suprised and rather disappointed. "I'm not sure if you are aware . . . " of me understanding Paul referred to the law of sin and death, the law of the Spirit of life, the law of God's commandments, the law of Paul's mind, it doesn't make sense to me that you haven't noticed by now.

God gave many laws, ordinances, statues and commandments Neh 9:13 and context dictates which law is being referred to, not us.

What is good for the goose is entirely appropriate for the gander this morning.

Now before I read any more, I will put some questions for you to answer the Forum readers.
You teach me in your next post to me, these few things.

1.) Romans 12:15 says "For when Gentiles, who have no law, do by nature the things of the law, these, though they have no law, are a law to themselves, Who show the work of the law written in their hearts,"

When was the work of the law written on the hearts of the Gentiles?
What is the difference if any between the work of the law and the law?

2.) If the work of the law was written on their hearts what need was there for the law to be given, to enter, to be added?

3.) The prophet Jeremiah says God will enscribe His law upon their [house of Israel and Judah's] mind and on their hearts inscribe them.
For this is the covenant which I will covenant with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will impart My laws into their mind, and on their hearts I will inscribe them; (Hebrews 8:10 quoting Jeremiah 31:31-34).

How could the Gentiles have the law or its work written in their hearts yet latter God has to
impart His laws into the hearts of His people the house of Israel?

Does that mean the Gentiles had the law before Israel did?

4.) If the law of God was never created and being uncreated like God Himself, how can
the New Testament speak of it entering or being added?

5.) Genesis says on the seventh day God rested. Where is the command in Genesis chapter one or two that Adam must keep the Sabbath?

And on the seventh day God finished His work which He had done, and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had done.
And God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it because in it He rested from all His work which God had created and made. (Gen. 2:2,3)

Locate the words in Genesis 2:2 where God gives commandment to man. Don't point to Exodus 20:10,11.
I do not ask you to locate such a command in Exodus. I ask you to point out specifically that command in Genesis.

Before I go on to return to be under your examinations, in your next post to me clearly answer these points please.
I may think of a few more for your teaching.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Before I go on to return to be under your examinations, in your next post to me clearly answer these points please.
I may think of a few more for your teaching.

Sure. Happy to do so, many have been previously addressed in some form or another, but I will go by the scripture you posted and address with context. I need to run to take my cat to the Vet but will do so a little later.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

1.) Romans 12:15 says "For when Gentiles, who have no law, do by nature the things of the law, these, though they have no law, are a law to themselves, Who show the work of the law written in their hearts,"

I am assuming you mean Romans 2:14, not 12:15 I think the first thing we need to do is bring in all the context.

This is about God's righteous Judgement

Romans 12:5 But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God’s wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed. 6 God “will repay each person according to what they have done.” 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. 8 But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. 9 There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; 10 but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. 11 For God does not show favoritism. 12 All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. 13 For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. 14 (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.) 16 This will take place on the day when God judges people’s secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.

The biggest take away here is God does not show favoritism and this sentiment is repeated several places in scripture. Romans 11, Gal 3:26-28

Paul shows there is access to the moral standards of God, not only for Jews, but for Gentiles, who know God but disregard Him. Even though the Gentiles (at that time) may not have naturally possessed the law like the Jews, we are shown the requirement of the law is written on their hearts v15. God's knowledge is not restricted to the outward deeds, He knows our most inner thoughts, so in the coming judgement will also be summoned to bear witness.

There's several places in scripture that confirms this. Sin is the transgression of God's law 1 John 3:4 Romans 7:7 and what we all will be on judged on James 2:10-12

Ecc 12:13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter:
Fear God and keep His commandments,
For this is man’s all.
14 For God will bring every work into judgment,
Including every secret thing,
Whether good or evil.

Jesus confirms this again quoting from the Ten and applies the law not just to our actions but to our thoughts. He is elevating the commandments- not ending or making smaller.


Mat 5: 19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.

21 “You have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not murder, and whoever murders will be in danger of the judgment.’ 22 But I say to you that whoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment. And whoever says to his brother, ‘Raca!’shall be in danger of the council. But whoever says, You fool!’ shall be in danger of hell fire. 23 Therefore if you bring your gift to the altar, and there remember that your brother has something against you, 24 leave your gift there before the altar, and go your way. First be reconciled to your brother, and then come and offer your gift. 25 Agree with your adversary quickly, while you are on the way with him, lest your adversary deliver you to the judge, the judge hand you over to the officer, and you be thrown into prison. 26 Assuredly, I say to you, you will by no means get out of there till you have paid the last penny.

Jesus tells us not to sin that it is better to cut out our eye than to sin. ​

27 “You have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not commit adultery.’ 28 But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart. 29 If your right eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and cast it from you; for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than for your whole body to be cast into hell. 30 And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and cast it from you; for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than for your whole body to be cast into hell.

When was the work of the law written on the hearts of the Gentiles?

If we are part of God's New Covenant promise we have the law of God written in the heart and mind. I certainly would not want to be written out of God's covenant promise which we are told there is no Jew or Gentile just those in Christ through faith. Gal 3:26-28

Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.

What is the difference if any between the work of the law and the law?

Can you quote a specific verse please? This can mean different things depending on context as there are different laws being referred to. But overall we can't save ourselves only Jesus can through our faith. Law keeping does not save, only the blood of Jesus saves through His grace. Keeping God's law is not to be saved, it is because one is saved. Rev14:12 It's an outward expression that one obeys God because He has changed us from the inside out and we keep His commandments through faith Romans 3:31 and love to God. 1 John 5:3, John 14:15, Exo 20:6

2.) If the work of the law was written on their hearts what need was there for the law to be given, to enter, to be added?
3.) The prophet Jeremiah says God will enscribe His law upon their [house of Israel and Judah's] mind and on their hearts inscribe them.
For this is the covenant which I will covenant with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will impart My laws into their mind, and on their hearts I will inscribe them; (Hebrews 8:10 quoting Jeremiah 31:31-34).

How could the Gentiles have the law or its work written in their hearts yet latter God has to
impart His laws into the hearts of His people the house of Israel?

Does that mean the Gentiles had the law before Israel did?

The commandments just point out sin, so we know we are sick. Romans 3:20 Romans 7:7 if we cover our sins, we will not prosper Proverbs 28:13 The law lets us know our sinful condition so we can depend on Jesus for His righteousness, not ours. Jesus doesn't keep the commandments for us, we have to cooperate with what is written on our hearts and be sure that we do not change our mind. Which is why the Holy Spirit pleas with us, because His law has been written on our conscious and the Holy Spirit pleas for us not to be in rebellion (disobedient) to God Hebrews 3:7-8, 15 Hebrews 4:7, Psalms 95:7-8 because those who are rebellious to God do not enter into His ultimate rest. Psalms 95:7-11, Hebrews 4, Hebrews 3 which is why the Holy Spirit pleas with us "Today". In Christ rest there is no rebellion to His commandments Isa 48:18. The unforgivable sin is hardening our heart against the Holy Spirit, where we no longer hear God's small voice speaking to us. If we do this long enough God will send us strong delusion where we will start believing the lie. 2 Thessalonians 2:11 This is a dangerous place to be and why the law of God is so important and we should not get to the point where we are hostile against God's law Romans 8:7

4.) If the law of God was never created and being uncreated like God Himself, how can
the New Testament speak of it entering or being added?

Sorry I do not understand this question

5.) Genesis says on the seventh day God rested. Where is the command in Genesis chapter one or two that Adam must keep the Sabbath?

And on the seventh day God finished His work which He had done, and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had done.
And God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it because in it He rested from all His work which God had created and made. (Gen. 2:2,3)

Locate the words in Genesis 2:2 where God gives commandment to man. Don't point to Exodus 20:10,11.
I do not ask you to locate such a command in Exodus. I ask you to point out specifically that command in Genesis.

Before I go on to return to be under your examinations, in your next post to me clearly answer these points please.
I may think of a few more for your teaching.

Have you ever read a book and on page 1 it doesn't reveal the entire book, but when you keep reading it provides the context to page 1 of the book? Think of the bible like this as it is all of God's Word one continuous book and there are no contradictions to God's Word- just misunderstandings.

God clearly tells us the Sabbath started at Creation.....right in the Sabbath commandment.

Exo 20:11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it.

God also stated very clearly in spoken and personally written Words- the seventh day is the Sabbath Exodus 20:10
Every time we see the word seventh day- we do not have to guess what it means- it is God's self-proclaimed holy day that God called My Sabbath and My holy day Isa 58:13

The Sabbath started at Creation before sin so could not be the law that was added because of sin.

Gen 2:1 Thus the heavens and the earth, and all the host of them, were finished. 2 And on the seventh day God ended His work which He had done, and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had done. 3 Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because in it He rested from all His work which God had created and made.

Right in the Sabbath commandment God used the word "Remember" this word shows it was already in existence and God points us back to Creation right in the Sabbath commandment. Note the verbiage is almost identical to Genesis 2:1-3

Exo 20:8 “Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord your God. In it you shall do no work: you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your male servant, nor your female servant, nor your cattle, nor your stranger who is within your gates. 11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it.

Jesus said plainly the Sabbath was made for man Mark 2:27, that Jesus is Lord of Mark 2:28 (Creator)

Man was made first on the sixth day made in the image of God to follow Him, which is why God commanded man to the same weekly cycle as Himself. God worked six days (Gen 1) and rested on the seventh day. Not that God needs rest, but He rested for the benefit of man, to spend time with man on the day God set aside blessed and sanctified and made for holy use because man cannot sanctify themselves, only God can Eze 20:12. Sin separated man from God so instead of spending time in His presence on His holy Sabbath day, we worship through His Spirit doing the ways of the Lord Isa 58:13 and God blesses and sanctifies us Eze 20:13, Isa 58:13. Once sin and sinners are no more the saints will once again worship in His presence every Sabbath, just like His perfect plan before the fall of man (sin).

 

[ralliann]

The case can be made that he did.

No, not really. A very good case can be made he didn't

The sabbath was given to Israel at Sinai as a SIGN.

1. It was a sign of the covenant made at Sinai.
Ex 31:16 Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant.
17 It is a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed.

2. Which covenant Was not made with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob
Deut 5:2 The LORD our God made a covenant with us in Horeb.
3 The LORD made not this covenant with our fathers, but with us, even us, who are all of us here alive this day.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

No, not really. A very good case can be made he didn't

1. It was a sign of the covenant made at Sinai.
Ex 31:16 Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant.
17 It is a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed.

2. Which covenant Was not made with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob
Deut 5:2 The LORD our God made a covenant with us in Horeb.
3 The LORD made not this covenant with our fathers, but with us, even us, who are all of us here alive this day.

It was a SIGN for the Mosaic. It was ESTABLISHED in the Adamic...Genesis 26:5. The Gemara cites that Rav said: Abraham our Patriarch fulfilled the entire Torah before it was given, as it is stated: “Because Abraham hearkened to My voice and kept My charge, My mitzvot, My statutes and My Torahs” (Genesis 26:5). Rav Shimi bar Ḥiyya said to Rav: And say that the verse means that he fulfilled only the seven Noahide mitzvot and not the entire Torah. The Gemara asks: But isn’t there also circumcision that Abraham clearly observed, which is not one of the Noahide laws? Apparently, Abraham fulfilled more than just those seven. The Gemara asks: And say that he fulfilled only the seven mitzvot and circumcision. Rav said to him: If so, why do I need the continuation of the verse, that Abraham kept: My mitzvot and my Torah? That is a clear indication that he fulfilled mitzvot beyond the seven Noahide mitzvot, and apparently fulfilled the entire Torah. Yoma 28b:9

 

[ralliann]

It was a SIGN for the Mosaic.It was ESTABLISHED in the Adamic...Genesis 26:5.

Read Hebrews.

The Gemara cites that Rav said: Abraham our Patriarch fulfilled the entire Torah before it was given, as it is stated: “Because Abraham hearkened to My voice and kept My charge, My mitzvot, My statutes and My Torahs” (Genesis 26:5). Rav Shimi bar Ḥiyya said to Rav: And say that the verse means that he fulfilled only the seven Noahide mitzvot and not the entire Torah. The Gemara asks: But isn’t there also circumcision that Abraham clearly observed, which is not one of the Noahide laws? Apparently, Abraham fulfilled more than just those seven. The Gemara asks: And say that he fulfilled only the seven mitzvot and circumcision. Rav said to him: If so, why do I need the continuation of the verse, that Abraham kept: My mitzvot and my Torah? That is a clear indication that he fulfilled mitzvot beyond the seven Noahide mitzvot, and apparently fulfilled the entire Torah. Yoma 28b:9

Your rabbi is wrong About Christ He is wrong here too.
Read Hebrews on the seventh day.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

Read Hebrews.

Your rabbi is wrong About Christ He is wrong here too.
Read Hebrews on the seventh day.

I have read Hebrews. The problem is not that I have not read it, the problem is you do not understand it. Those Rabbis I quoted are from a very long time ago.

 

[oikonomia]

The biggest take away here is God does not show favoritism and this sentiment is repeated several places in scripture. Romans 11, Gal 3:26-28

The question was - When did God write the work of the law on their hearts?
Though you wrote much around the verse, I did not see the answer to my question yet.

Paul shows there is access to the moral standards of God, not only for Jews, but for Gentiles, who know God but disregard Him. Even though the Gentiles (at that time) may not have naturally possessed the law like the Jews, we are shown the requirement of the law is written on their hearts v15. God's knowledge is not restricted to the outward deeds, He knows our most inner thoughts, so in the coming judgement will also be summoned to bear witness.

When did God write the work of the law on their hearts? That was my question.
I read it all. I didn't see you tell us at what time (when) the work of the law was written on the hearts of the Gentiles.

If we are part of God's New Covenant promise we have the law of God written in the heart and mind. I certainly would not want to be written out of God's covenant promise which we are told there is no Jew or Gentile just those in Christ through faith. Gal 3:26-28

Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.

That raises a question "If . . . " with something about (I assume you mean) Gentiles being brought into the new covenant.
You write about what you would want and not want.

I saw no answer to my question when was the work of the law written on the hearts of the Gentiles.

"For when Gentiles, who have no law, do by nature the things of the law, these, though they have no law, are a law to themselves, Who show the work of the law written in their hearts,"

Yes the reference was from chapter 2 not chapter 12. Thanks for that.

Sorry I do not understand this question

It was simple.
What is the difference if any between the work of the law and the law?

Have you ever read a book and on page 1 it doesn't reveal the entire book, but when you keep reading it provides the context to page 1 of the book? Think of the bible like this as it is all of God's Word one continuous book and there are no contradictions to God's Word- just misunderstandings.

God clearly tells us the Sabbath started at Creation.....right in the Sabbath commandment.

The question was what is the difference if any between the work of the law and the law?
I'll move on if you don't understand - What is the difference if any between the work of the law and the law?

God also stated very clearly in spoken and personally written Words- the seventh day is the Sabbath Exodus 20:10
Every time we see the word seventh day- we do not have to guess what it means- it is God's self-proclaimed holy day that God called My Sabbath and My holy day Isa 58:13

The Sabbath started at Creation before sin so could not be the law that was added because of sin.

I see no answer to - What is the difference if any between the work of the law and the law?

I also asked - If the work of the law was written on their hearts what need was there for the law to be given, to enter, to be added?

In the discussion following this question you seem confused over the new covenant promise that God would
in the future write His laws on the hearts of the house of Israel and Judah and from much earlier than this God writing the work
of the law on the hearts of the Gentiles who had no law from Moses.

If the work of the law is to convict of sin then you don't explain how the law being added or entering was needed.
You could pin point circular reasoning to me. I don't know why you fail to see your problem with the Law needed to do
the work and the work being done by being written on the hearts of the Gentiles for that very work.

Then I asked you to specifically point out the commandment for Adam to keep the Sabbath in Genesis.

Gen 2:1 Thus the heavens and the earth, and all the host of them, were finished. 2 And on the seventh day God ended His work which He had done, and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had done. 3 Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because in it He rested from all His work which God had created and made.

God blessed the 7th day. In Genesis where is the command for Adam to rest - in Genesis?

Right in the Sabbath commandment God used the word "Remember" this word shows it was already in existence and God points us back to Creation right in the Sabbath commandment. Note the verbiage is almost identical to Genesis 2:1-3

I said show me in Genesis. You went to Exodus to point out the word "Remember" what God did on the 7th day.
Adam may have rested. Adam may not have rested.
In Exodus, which I thought you could answer without, God said to Remember (what God did) and keep it holy.

Does it say remember what God commanded?

This is not clear indication of what God commanded Adam.
You are saying Exodus proves what God commanded Adam.
But at best we see God commanding Moses and Israel to remember what God did and keep that day holy.

Exo 20:8 “Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord your God. In it you shall do no work: you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your male servant, nor your female servant, nor your cattle, nor your stranger who is within your gates. 11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it.

Jesus said plainly the Sabbath was made for man Mark 2:27, that Jesus is Lord of Mark 2:28 (Creator)

The Sabbath was made for man.
But the commandment to keep the Sabbath is not unambiguously located in Genesis.

Night and day were made for man also.
There is no commandment in Genesis that Adam must rest at night.

Man was made first on the sixth day made in the image of God to follow Him, which is why God commanded man to the same weekly cycle as Himself. God worked six days (Gen 1) and rested on the seventh day.

You could say God set an example.
You can say it was to Adam's benefit to follow God's example.

You do not have enough said in Genesis to show God commanded man to rest on the 7th day.
And in Exodus you have God telling Moses and Israel to REMEMBER what God the Creator did and keep that day holy.

Not that God needs rest, but He rested for the benefit of man, to spend time with man on the day God set aside blessed and sanctified and made for holy use because man cannot sanctify themselves, only God can Eze 20:12. Sin separated man from God so instead of spending time in His presence on His holy Sabbath day, we worship through His Spirit doing the ways of the Lord Isa 58:13 and God blesses and sanctifies us Eze 20:13, Isa 58:13. Once sin and sinners are no more the saints will once again worship in His presence every Sabbath, just like His perfect plan before the fall of man (sin).

Above you made a case that reading the Bible is not like just seeing everything on the first page.
One has to read more.

So if I read more about there still remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God, and then deduce
there must be something more to the meaning of the Sabbath, I don't know what I am doing that you are not doing.

Joshua the general of the army of Jehovah led them to the conquest over the enemies occupying the Promised Land.
That plot of earth was reserved by God particulaly for His elect to clear out idols, establish a kingdom of priests, have a tabercacle where God's presence on the planet was secured, and build a city as a capital of that kingdom. That city was the place where His name was.

This was the Sabbath rest that Joshua was leading them into.
So we go back to Genesis and realize that God creating man in His image with His dominion (especially guarding His interests) was the first glimpse into God resting.

And even after the conquest of Canaan there REMAINS a Sabbath rest for the people of God.
So the significance of this rest deepens and the unvieling of God's eternal purpose is progresseivly revealed.

Don't be cynical of readers "guessing" when I write of more of the real significance of the Sabbath in the Bible.
The Sabbath eventually where God and man rest satisfied with all the work of God, is in the new heaven and new earth.
The New Jerusalem at the end of the Bible is a sign of the mingling and union of divinity with humanity for
a corporate expression of God expressed in His sons and His sons reigning forever guarding His interests in the universe.

Here God achieves His eternal purpose.
Here man arrives at the meaning of His existence in complete harmony with the Savior Triune God.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

The question was - When did God write the work of the law on their hearts?
Though you wrote much around the verse, I did not see the answer to my question yet.

When did God write the work of the law on their hearts? That was my question.
I read it all. I didn't see you tell us at what time (when) the work of the law was written on the hearts of the Gentiles.

That raises a question "If . . . " with something about (I assume you mean) Gentiles being brought into the new covenant.
You write about what you would want and not want.

I saw no answer to my question when was the work of the law written on the hearts of the Gentiles.

"For when Gentiles, who have no law, do by nature the things of the law, these, though they have no law, are a law to themselves, Who show the work of the law written in their hearts,"

Yes the reference was from chapter 2 not chapter 12. Thanks for that.


It was simple.
What is the difference if any between the work of the law and the law?

The question was what is the difference if any between the work of the law and the law?
I'll move on if you don't understand - What is the difference if any between the work of the law and the law?

I see no answer to - What is the difference if any between the work of the law and the law?

I also asked - If the work of the law was written on their hearts what need was there for the law to be given, to enter, to be added?

In the discussion following this question you seem confused over the new covenant promise that God would
in the future write His laws on the hearts of the house of Israel and Judah and from much earlier than this God writing the work
of the law on the hearts of the Gentiles who had no law from Moses.

If the work of the law is to convict of sin then you don't explain how the law being added or entering was needed.
You could pin point circular reasoning to me. I don't know why you fail to see your problem with the Law needed to do
the work and the work being done by being written on the hearts of the Gentiles for that very work.

Then I asked you to specifically point out the commandment for Adam to keep the Sabbath in Genesis.


God blessed the 7th day. In Genesis where is the command for Adam to rest - in Genesis?

I said show me in Genesis. You went to Exodus to point out the word "Remember" what God did on the 7th day.
Adam may have rested. Adam may not have rested.
In Exodus, which I thought you could answer without, God said to Remember (what God did) and keep it holy.

Does it say remember what God commanded?

This is not clear indication of what God commanded Adam.
You are saying Exodus proves what God commanded Adam.
But at best we see God commanding Moses and Israel to remember what God did and keep that day holy.



The Sabbath was made for man.
But the commandment to keep the Sabbath is not unambiguously located in Genesis.

Night and day were made for man also.
There is no commandment in Genesis that Adam must rest at night.


You could say God set an example.
You can say it was to Adam's benefit to follow God's example.

You do not have enough said in Genesis to show God commanded man to rest on the 7th day.
And in Exodus you have God telling Moses and Israel to REMEMBER what God the Creator did and keep that day holy.


Above you made a case that reading the Bible is not like just seeing everything on the first page.
One has to read more.

So if I read more about there still remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God, and then deduce
there must be something more to the meaning of the Sabbath, I don't know what I am doing that you are not doing.

Joshua the general of the army of Jehovah led them to the conquest over the enemies occupying the Promised Land.
That plot of earth was reserved by God particulaly for His elect to clear out idols, establish a kingdom of priests, have a tabercacle where God's presence on the planet was secured, and build a city as a capital of that kingdom. That city was the place where His name was.

This was the Sabbath rest that Joshua was leading them into.
So we go back to Genesis and realize that God creating man in His image with His dominion (especially guarding His interests) was the first glimpse into God resting.

And even after the conquest of Canaan there REMAINS a Sabbath rest for the people of God.
So the significance of this rest deepens and the unvieling of God's eternal purpose is progresseivly revealed.

Don't be cynical of readers "guessing" when I write of more of the real significance of the Sabbath in the Bible.
The Sabbath eventually where God and man rest satisfied with all the work of God, is in the new heaven and new earth.
The New Jerusalem at the end of the Bible is a sign of the mingling and union of divinity with humanity for
a corporate expression of God expressed in His sons and His sons reigning forever guarding His interests in the universe.

Here God achieves His eternal purpose.
Here man arrives at the meaning of His existence in complete harmony with the Savior Triune God.

Before I answer any more of your questions, which I am happy to can you answer this one first, because I see a lot of scripture I’m sharing not being addressed and I am seeing some opinions, which you are sharing which does not seem to be in God’s Word.

Can you please post the scripture that says Joshua was leading the Israelites into “Sabbath rest” and we no longer need to keep one of the commandments of God the way God commanded and it was changed to a different definition, despite the warnings, Deut 4:2, Num 23:20 Pro 30:5-6 and contradiction to all of God’s Word

Everytime we see the word rest, does not mean it’s the Sabbath. I previously showed this to you from Hebrews 4, but you seemed to have missed it as you never responded to it, but keep using the same error that rest automatically means the Sabbath. Context dictates this not us.

The rest Joshua was leading the Israelites to was Canaan rest, not the seventh day Sabbath rest. God tells us plainly the Sabbath rest is on the seventh day. Exodus 20:10. It also why most ancient languages Saturday means Sabbath.

This is the rest that Joshua was leading the Israelites into the promise land and as you can see the seventh day Sabbath rest is not mentioned. You are adding to what’s not there and that no longer makes it God’s Word but our opinion, which is not equal to God’s Word. Something I think we need to be careful of, especially when it has to do with something God divinely wrote with His own finger.

This is the rest Joshua is referring to and the greek word in those passage.

katapausis: rest
Original Word: κατάπαυσις, εως, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: katapausis
Phonetic Spelling: (kat-ap'-ow-sis)
Definition: rest
Usage: (in the Old Testament of the rest attained by the settlement in Canaan), resting, rest, dwelling, habitation.

There is Christ rest and the seventh day Sabbath rest- not the same meaning, but in Christ rest there is no rebellion to His commandments just peace Isa 48:18 and disobedience and rebellion like the Israelites were in their trial of the wilderness is one of the warnings Hebrews 4 is trying to teach us, so we don’t follow their example in our trial and miss out on our rest God is trying to give us into our Promise Land rest.
The Sabbath rest means it is on the seventh day Exo 20:10 God spoke and wrote this so clearly Exo 20:10 the seventh day is the Sabbath

For you to claim the Sabbath rest means something different than what God so clearly stated and somehow the Sabbath was changed during to the time of Joshua is not compatible with the rest of God’s Word. For example, when we get to the apostles in the NT who kept every Sabbath day in a holy way Acts 18:4, Acts 13:42, Acts 13:44 just as the commandment states Exo 20:8 is not saying the apostles Canaan rested so I believe it is important to not make the scripture say something its not, because the goal here it follow the will of God and not replace it with our own.