Florida ‘effectively’ bans Advanced Placement Psychology course due to curriculum's discussion of gender and sexual orientation

[essentialsaltes]

No

So you didn't inadvertently misattribute the quote, and you didn't intend to misattribute the quote. What's left?

Because there is zero doubt that you did indeed misattribute (through omission) the quote.

You are the progenitor of this falsehood.

 

[A2SG]

Biology.

Gender isn't biological. Generally, the term "sex" refers to one's biology and genitalia. Gender, on the other hand, refers to the part of one's personal identity that identifies with the generally accepted roles and traits associated with male and female in one's society.

I'd accept that sex is binary (mostly, there are exceptions), but not gender.

If you simply conflated the two terms, no problem....but going forward, this is the generally accepted distinction, and the one I tend to use.

That's the claim. However it fails in th face of science. What you are talking about is not gender. It's personality.

One's gender is part of one's personality. It's the part where you define yourself according to the traits and roles of male and female within your culture or society.

Please explain why if gender is just an identity then why are people trying to change their biology?

So it matches their identity. For some people, their sex at birth doesn't coincide with their perceived gender.

So what if a man doesn't like sports or prefer musical theater. What only women can be like that?

Nope. In fact, I specifically said otherwise.

What about women who love sports and don't like musical theatre? Are they then men?

Nope. In fact, I specifically said otherwise.

What you are referring to is a persons personal likes and dislikes and those do NOT determine if you are a woman or a man.

They help to define that part of your identity that determines your gender.

Your sex does that.

Only regarding biology. Gender isn't biology, it's identity.

What you do and do not like does not. Gender is binary determined by your sex.

See above where I define the difference between these terms. They are not the same thing, and shouldn't be conflated.

What you like and dislike is is based on personal tastes and personality.

Yup. And that helps form your gender identity.

You do not need by any stretch of the imagination to alter your body just because you are a girl who likes sports and carpentry.

If you are someone who was born with female genitalia, but instead of identifying as a girl, you feel that your gender is male....then you very well might want to alter your body so the two match. For some, they do feel this need....whether or not you, personally, understand.

You don't need slice your penis in half just cause you enjoy musicals and cleaning the house. Man talk about forcing people into gender roles.

Um, my point is that people fall all over that spectrum. Just because our culture generally considers certain traits "masculine" or "feminine," that doesn't mean every man or every woman will display those traits.

In fact, I specifically said that earlier. The bit about a spectrum, in fact.

I just told you. Biology. You just made my point that gender is not scientific. There is zero evidence for it. It's pure sophistry.

Again, gender is not biological. It's a function of one's identity. And as such, it's entirely subjective.

And there exists tons of evidence for gender in general, and gender dysphoria specifically.

If someone wants to identify as a bullfrog, sew on an extra length of tongue, alter their eyes to bug out, chop off their feet and sew on flippers and take frog genes to change their voice to croak you wouldn't be standing here trying to tell us all that it's just a personal identity. You would be telling us that person needs psychological help.

Perhaps so. But that's an entirely different subject. We are talking about one's gender, and that's not the same thing as one's species.

Biology determines what you are. That's science.

Biology determines your sex. You determine your gender. See above for the distinction between the two.

There is nothing wrong with you if you are a boy who likes to do the dishes and laundry while your wife prefers to mow the lawn.

Agreed, and I never claimed otherwise.

-- A2SG, if sex and gender are the same thing....why have two different words?

 

[A2SG]

well said - I find it interesting that when it comes to Covid or climate - denying the 'science' is used as a weakness, but when it comes to gender - denying the 'science' is embraced.

Certainly not by all.

You may want to look up the science on gender. It isn't denied at all.

How Science is Helping Us Understand Gender

Neurobiology of gender identity and sexual orientation

Understanding transgender people, gender identity and gender expression

-- A2SG, these from a simple, cursory google search, by the way.....

 

[A2SG]

Gender is not based on anything but sex. You first have to assume that it's not. But the assumption is not based upon anything.

Psychiatrists who study this kind of thing disagree. Not to mention those individuals who personally experience a difference between their sex and their gender identity.

What is identity? What are you identifying as?

Me, personally? This isn't about me.

What's you your evidence they are not harming themselves or anyone else. You first have to define harm. So what is the definition of harm?

What's your evidence that people are harmed? That'd be easier to demonstrate than a lack of harm, frankly.

Let's start there.

-- A2SG, though, I might consider one's personal happiness after gender reassignment surgery a factor, as well as suicide rates without it.....

 

[A2SG]

Yet you feel free to get involved in these conversations and advocate for accepting something that is unscientific. If this is all none of your business why are involved in the conversation?

That was referring to Truth's disagreement with NCAA guidelines. I'm not part of the NCAA, so I don't have a say in how they enforce their guidelines regarding qualifications.

-- A2SG, it was all laid out in the post, not sure how you missed it......

 

[OldAbramBrown]

...

Neurobiology of gender identity and sexual orientation

...

And it was religious leaders that made gender into an issue, to divert from their hypocrisy about chastity.

"Conservatives" think it is "christian" to "influence" without thoroughly well thought out moderate adjustments.

I also think American education is too intensive. (I'm English and 68.)

 

[OldAbramBrown]

The topic of the thread is not medical procedures, labor laws, psychiatry, or child abuse.

Except when those issues are raised in direct response to a question about WHY one would support the law under discussion and the reason is the same in all cases (protecting children).

Technically, what is there to discuss. The LAW was passed and is the LAW.

• Should schools violate state laws they disagree with?
• What if a teacher disagrees with “gun control laws”, should they then violate those laws, too?
• Since the drinking age is a state law, should schools disregard that law and serve Bud Light to minors (to support inclusion and fight the boycott)?

These are the issues, but when a law is drafted and passed in unbalanced form, it should be amended proportionately.

It was the religious leaders that have made the children become upset about their genders in the first place.

I remember how the stereotypes nigh on destroyed me, and many around me. Science does not support spiritual hypocrisy, so no need to cite science as conveniently colluding diversion.

 

[OldAbramBrown]

No the law helps protect the children from the groomers/pedophiles.

From one faction of them, but not necessarily their copycats (it is open to misinterpretation re. them).

 

[rjs330]

Gender isn't biological. Generally, the term "sex" refers to one's biology and genitalia. Gender, on the other hand, refers to the part of one's personal identity that identifies with the generally accepted roles and traits associated with male and female in one's society.

I'd accept that sex is binary (mostly, there are exceptions), but not gender.

If you simply conflated the two terms, no problem....but going forward, this is the generally accepted distinction, and the one I tend to use.

You may use the distinction all you want but is a made up one with no scientific evidence that there are more than two.

You said it was ones personal identity. Identity of what?

You mentioned roles and traits. Roles and traits of what? You answered it. Males and females. Two genders. Which are two sexes. Every single role and trait is associated to a sex. You cannot define gender without sex. Gender is sex and sex is gender. Period.

One's gender is part of one's personality. It's the part where you define yourself according to the traits and roles of male and female within your culture or society

No it's not. Personality is personality. You don't define your personality.

You are claiming gender is performance, traits and roles of, say it with me, male and females. Sex. Sex roles. Roles of biological women and biological men. Two sexes. Two genders. That's it.

So it matches their identity. For some people, their sex at birth doesn't coincide with their perceived gender.

So gender is perceived. What are they perceived as? Male and female. It's biological. Two genders, two sexes, male and female. How do they know they are not the sex of their birth? What exactly is female gender? What is exactly male gender? What is gender?

Again, gender is not biological. It's a function of one's identity. And as such, it's entirely subjective.

And there exists tons of evidence for gender in general, and gender dysphoria specifically.

Of course it's a subjective. It's not based upon any manner of reality. Anything not based on reality is a delusion. I can identify as anything I wish. But that doesn't mean I am. Could I identify as an American Indian?
How about a frog?

Perhaps so. But that's an entirely different subject. We are talking about one's gender, and that's not the same thing as one's species.

Why not? If identity is subjective?

Biology determines your sex. You determine your gender. See above for the distinction between the two.

How does one determine their gender?

Gender used to be a word that was used instead of sex. It became a substitution for the word sex and described sex roles. That's how we got gender roles which were a reference for sexual roles. Sex and gender were the SAME THING.

It wasn't until some very twisted, perverted and mentally ill people came along who invented gender theory without any evidence whatsoever. And there still isn't any. None.

 

[rjs330]

Psychiatrists who study this kind of thing disagree. Not to mention those individuals who personally experience a difference between their sex and their gender identity.

No they don't.

And those that experience a difference are suffering from a mental health disorder in believing they are indeed the opposite biological sex.

Me, personally? This isn't about me.

You are trying not to answer the question. To make it easy. What are they identifying as?

What's your evidence that people are harmed? That'd be easier to demonstrate than a lack of harm, frankly.

Let's start there.

Nope, you made a claim. Now prove it. First you have to define harm. Are you unable or unwilling to?

though, I might consider one's personal happiness after gender reassignment surgery a factor, as well as suicide rates without it.....

Then you should do more research because there are no studies that indicate people are happier after, long term. The entire suicide rates issue has been debunked. In fact we are finding more and more information coming out that mental health is not improving.

Children are the biggest victims if all of this.

 

[A2SG]

You may use the distinction all you want but is a made up one with no scientific evidence that there are more than two.

You're wrong.

World Health Organization: Gender and Health

Medical News Today: Sex and gender: what is the difference?

National Institutes of Health: What are sex and gender?

But hey, you don't have to take my word for it, look it up yourself, see what you find.

You said it was ones personal identity. Identity of what?

Identity of how you perceive yourself in relation to how "male" and "female" are defined within your culture or society. Basically, whether you think of yourself as a man or a woman....irrespective of your genitalia.

You mentioned roles and traits. Roles and traits of what? You answered it. Males and females. Two genders. Which are two sexes. Every single role and trait is associated to a sex. You cannot define gender without sex. Gender is sex and sex is gender. Period.

Nope. As I've explained before. Or, look above for more sources on the distinction between the terms.

No it's not. Personality is personality. You don't define your personality.

Then who does?

It may not necessarily be a conscious decision, and it may be shaped by factors beyond your personal control, but no one else but you creates your personality.

You are claiming gender is performance, traits and roles of, say it with me, male and females. Sex. Sex roles. Roles of biological women and biological men. Two sexes. Two genders. That's it.

Two ends of a spectrum, with a lot of room in between.

So gender is perceived. What are they perceived as? Male and female. It's biological.

Still no. For the reasons given previously.

Two genders, two sexes, male and female.

Two sides of a spectrum, with room in between.

How do they know they are not the sex of their birth?

How do you know you are?

What exactly is female gender? What is exactly male gender? What is gender?

A social construct that informs your identity as regards what is considered "male" and "female" within your society or culture.

Of course it's a subjective. It's not based upon any manner of reality.

Just because something is subjective, that doesn't mean it isn't real.

Anything not based on reality is a delusion.

Is beauty a delusion? Justice? Honor? Religious convictions?

These things are all subjective. And very, very real.

I can identify as anything I wish.

You could...but gender isn't usually a conscious choice...at least, it isn't for the vast majority of humans. Just like other parts of your identity.

But that doesn't mean I am. Could I identify as an American Indian?
How about a frog?

Gender isn't the same thing as your ethnic background, nor is it the same thing as your species. You are, again, conflating things that are biological with things that are part of your identity.

Though, to be fair, it's possible to be part of a culture, ethnic or otherwise, that you weren't born into. Say you were adopted by an American Indian family, for example. Granted, it isn't usually easy, but it isn't impossible either.

Still not the same thing, though.

Why not? If identity is subjective?

Because genetics isn't.

How does one determine their gender?

Usually by observing other people, and finding out where you fit in within the society you're a part of.

Let me ask you: how did you determine your gender? Did you just look at your genitalia and say, yup, that's who I am?

Or was it just a bit more than that?

Gender used to be a word that was used instead of sex. It became a substitution for the word sex and described sex roles. That's how we got gender roles which were a reference for sexual roles. Sex and gender were the SAME THING.

Nah, they may have meant similar things, but there has always been a distinction. As we've learned more about how these things work, we've discovered just how significant those distinctions are.

Now, with all the knowledge and insight we've gained through research and personal experience, the consensus among those who study this field is to make the distinction I've described.

It wasn't until some very twisted, perverted and mentally ill people came along who invented gender theory without any evidence whatsoever. And there still isn't any. None.

There's plenty.

Check it out for yourself. If you actually try to learn about the subject, you'll find there's a lot you don't know.

-- A2SG, you don't need to take my word for any of this......

 

[A2SG]

No they don't.

Yeah, they do. The general consensus among those who study gender is as I've described.

But don't take my word for it, check out the research for yourself.

And those that experience a difference are suffering from a mental health disorder in believing they are indeed the opposite biological sex.

Just because you, personally, can't understand what someone else is going through, that doesn't mean they're delusional. Just as those who don't understand what you've gone through aren't.

For example: if you believe in god, but someone else doesn't, does that mean they're correct in calling you delusional, because they don't understand your beliefs?

You are trying not to answer the question. To make it easy. What are they identifying as?

What are you asking here?

Do you want to know what gender I, personally, identify as? Fine, for what it's worth: I define myself as male.

As to what someone else identifies as...you'd have to ask them.

Nope, you made a claim. Now prove it. First you have to define harm. Are you unable or unwilling to?

Okay, fine. In the context of the comment I made, someone isn't harming themselves if they don't cause pain or damage to themself in some way. Like, for example, if a person wants to dress up as a cat.

Then you should do more research because there are no studies that indicate people are happier after, long term. The entire suicide rates issue has been debunked. In fact we are finding more and more information coming out that mental health is not improving.

The National Institutes of Health disagrees with your conclusion. They also don't agree that the higher suicide rate among trans individuals has been debunked.

Children are the biggest victims if all of this.

I haven't even mentioned children in this discussion.

-- A2SG, we're already pretty off topic here, let's not get too far into the weeds......

 

[rjs330]

But hey, you don't have to take my word for it, look it up yourself, see what you find.

Hmmm. Still no scientific evidence

Identity of how you perceive yourself in relation to how "male" and "female" are defined within your culture or society. Basically, whether you think of yourself as a man or a woman....irrespective of your genitalia.

Male and female is determined by biology. It is not determined by culture.

Nope. As I've explained before. Or, look above for more sources on the distinction between the terms.

The sources do not provide any evidence for gender

Two ends of a spectrum, with a lot of room in between.

What's on each end of the spectrum?

Still no. For the reasons given previously.

That not what you have argued for. You said it was male or female.

Just because something is subjective, that doesn't mean it isn't real.

But it's not based upon any reality.

Is beauty a delusion? Justice? Honor? Religious convictions?

These things are all subjective. And very, very real.

All those things are based on something that is real. A gender identity is not based on anything real beyond the binary which is based upon biological facts. Because gender identity seeks to be real. It says I AM something they are not. It is based on unreality.

Gender isn't the same thing as your ethnic background, nor is it the same thing as your species. You are, again, conflating things that are biological with things that are part of your identity.

You said identity is subjective. Therefore I can identify in any way I wish. Unless you are trying to tell us now that it's based upon something real. You've argued yourself into a corner. I have been arguing all along that it has to be based on reality. You said it's subjective and not. Now you want to argue it is based on reality. What reality is it based on?

Usually by observing other people, and finding out where you fit in within the society you're a part of.

Let me ask you: how did you determine your gender? Did you just look at your genitalia and say, yup, that's who I am?

Or was it just a bit more than that?

I didn't determine my gender. It was determined for me by my biology. I am a male because I was born one.

Now, with all the knowledge and insight we've gained through research and personal experience, the consensus among those who study this field is to make the distinction I've described.

There is no research that has discovered gender. There can't be if gender is subjective. Research is a science. And there is no science that has discovered gender.

Please share with us the scientific discovery of gender.

Nah, they may have meant similar things, but there has always been a distinction. As we've learned more about how these things work, we've discovered just how significant those distinctions are.

Nope.

There's plenty.

Check it out for yourself. If you actually try to learn about the subject, you'll find there's a lot you don't know.

I have. I've been reading about this stuff for a bit now. There isn't any evidence for it. In fact there is no definition for it either. Every single attempt made at defining gender ALWAYS returns to biological sex. Always.

Gender Ideology (sometimes referred to as Transgender Ideology) is a term used to describe an ideology which is a subset of “Queer Theory” with roots in postmodernism which holds that objective reality is a mental construct. Under this ideology. Gender identity is primary and determined by one’s subjective experience, biological sex is a spectrum – “binary sex” is a social construct.

Even the so called spectrum is based on biological sex. Sorry a man cannot be a woman or vice versa.

There are no objective markers or known determinants as to the cause for an identity that is not congruent with a person’s biological sex or whether it is changeable.

If you think you are you have a mental health disorder.

How does a biological male come to the conclusion he is really a female?

 

[Truth7t7]

Yeah, they do. The general consensus among those who study gender is as I've described.

But don't take my word for it, check out the research for yourself.


Just because you, personally, can't understand what someone else is going through, that doesn't mean they're delusional. Just as those who don't understand what you've gone through aren't.

For example: if you believe in god, but someone else doesn't, does that mean they're correct in calling you delusional, because they don't understand your beliefs?


What are you asking here?

Do you want to know what gender I, personally, identify as? Fine, for what it's worth: I define myself as male.

As to what someone else identifies as...you'd have to ask them.


Okay, fine. In the context of the comment I made, someone isn't harming themselves if they don't cause pain or damage to themself in some way. Like, for example, if a person wants to dress up as a cat.


The National Institutes of Health disagrees with your conclusion. They also don't agree that the higher suicide rate among trans individuals has been debunked.


I haven't even mentioned children in this discussion.

-- A2SG, we're already pretty off topic here, let's not get too far into the weeds......

75% of Americans believe there are two genders, male/female, and only 18% disagreed

You can pile up all the liberal Phd's, Psychologist, on and on trying to change the majorities opinion, and I don't see it coming soon

God made Adam and Eve, and nobody is changing that fact

NewsWeek​

Most U.S. Adults Believe There Are Only 2 Genders, Survey Shows​

BY JON JACKSON ON 12/29/21 AT 2:40 PM EST
The survey conducted by Rasmussen Reports asked 1,000 adults in the U.S. if they agreed with the statement that "[t]here are two genders, male and female." Seventy-five percent of respondents said they agreed with the statement, including 63 percent who said they strongly agreed.

 

[A2SG]

Hmmm. Still no scientific evidence

Then you're not looking. I presented some, there's plenty more where that came from.

Assuming you want to learn, that is.

Male and female is determined by biology. It is not determined by culture.

Genitalia may be determined by biology, but gender identity isn't.

The sources do not provide any evidence for gender

Yeah, they do. Plenty of it. You just have to read it.

What's on each end of the spectrum?

As we were discussing, male on one end, female on the other. Were you unclear on that?

That not what you have argued for. You said it was male or female.

I said "no" to the part about gender being biological. And that I have argued for, quite a bit...with supporting evidence, I might add.

But it's not based upon any reality.

So nothing subjective is real? Is that your worldview?

Do you have beliefs, of any sort? Are those beliefs real?

All those things are based on something that is real. A gender identity is not based on anything real beyond the binary which is based upon biological facts. Because gender identity seeks to be real. It says I AM something they are not. It is based on unreality.

Male and female roles and traits aren't real? News to me, I've experienced them all my life.

You said identity is subjective. Therefore I can identify in any way I wish.

Just because something is subjective, that doesn't mean it's a conscious choice.

If you're a conservative Republican, can you simply choose to be a liberal Democrat, and suddenly, you are one? If you're a Catholic, can you choose to be a Hindu?

Ask yourself...can you choose to be a different gender than you've already decided you are?

Unless you are trying to tell us now that it's based upon something real. You've argued yourself into a corner. I have been arguing all along that it has to be based on reality. You said it's subjective and not. Now you want to argue it is based on reality. What reality is it based on?

Subjective things are real. I mentioned a bunch earlier.

I didn't determine my gender. It was determined for me by my biology. I am a male because I was born one.

Good for you. But, so you know, not everyone has the same experiences you have. For some people, it isn't so simple.

There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy.

There is no research that has discovered gender. There can't be if gender is subjective. Research is a science. And there is no science that has discovered gender.

Read up on the subject, and you'll find your assumptions are mistaken.

Please share with us the scientific discovery of gender.

I've tried. You don't seem interested in reading the links I've provided.

So feel free to find your own.

Nope.

Yup.

I have. I've been reading about this stuff for a bit now. There isn't any evidence for it. In fact there is no definition for it either. Every single attempt made at defining gender ALWAYS returns to biological sex. Always.

And yet, you're wrong.

But hey, feel free to provide the stuff you've been reading, show me where all the research I've read has got it wrong. Let's compare notes!

Gender Ideology (sometimes referred to as Transgender Ideology) is a term used to describe an ideology which is a subset of “Queer Theory” with roots in postmodernism which holds that objective reality is a mental construct. Under this ideology. Gender identity is primary and determined by one’s subjective experience, biological sex is a spectrum – “binary sex” is a social construct.

Not sure where you got this from. Care to cite your source, as I have?

Even the so called spectrum is based on biological sex. Sorry a man cannot be a woman or vice versa.

And yet, some men have become women. Caitlyn Jenner, for example.

There are no objective markers or known determinants as to the cause for an identity that is not congruent with a person’s biological sex or whether it is changeable.

Because identity is subjective.

As I've said several times.

If you think you are you have a mental health disorder.

Thank you for your diagnosis, doctor. I may seek a second opinion, though.

How does a biological male come to the conclusion he is really a female?

I think I'll let these people speak for themselves:

Transgender stories: 'People think we wake up and decide to be trans'

-- A2SG, they can tell their own stories better than I can.......

 

[A2SG]

75% of Americans believe there are two genders, male/female, and only 18% disagreed

Polls determine people's identities now?

You can pile up all the liberal Phd's, Psychologist, on and on trying to change the majorities opinion, and I don't see it coming soon

Who cares? Majorities have been wrong before.

There's even a term for it: argumentum ad populum.

A majority of people used to think the world was flat. Some still do.

God made Adam and Eve, and nobody is changing that fact

NewsWeek​

Most U.S. Adults Believe There Are Only 2 Genders, Survey Shows​

BY JON JACKSON ON 12/29/21 AT 2:40 PM EST
The survey conducted by Rasmussen Reports asked 1,000 adults in the U.S. if they agreed with the statement that "[t]here are two genders, male and female." Seventy-five percent of respondents said they agreed with the statement, including 63 percent who said they strongly agreed.

Once upon a time, most people believed there were many gods.

Still think the majority decides reality?

-- A2SG, by the way....you do know who the majority of voters voted for in 2016, right?

 

[Truth7t7]

Still think the majority decides reality?

Do you think the 18% minority that disagreed with the question of gender decides reality?

Reality ✔

 

[Truth7t7]

Genitalia may be determined by biology, but gender identity isn't.

Mayo Clinic​

Gender Dysphoria​

Overview​

Gender dysphoria is the feeling of discomfort or distress that might occur in people whose gender identity differs from their sex assigned at birth or sex-related physical characteristics.

Transgender and gender-diverse people might experience gender dysphoria at some point in their lives. However, some transgender and gender-diverse people feel at ease with their bodies, with or without medical intervention

A diagnosis for gender dysphoria is included in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM-5), a manual published by the American Psychiatric Association. The diagnosis was created to help people with gender dysphoria get access to necessary health care and effective treatment. The term focuses on discomfort as the problem, rather than identity.

 

[A2SG]

Do you think the 18% minority that disagreed with the question of gender decides reality?

Reality ✔

Nope. I don't think polls determine reality at all. Polls are just a measure of opinions.

Nothing more, nothing less.

-- A2SG, and we all know what opinions are like.......

 

[A2SG]

Mayo Clinic​

Gender Dysphoria​

Overview​

Gender dysphoria is the feeling of discomfort or distress that might occur in people whose gender identity differs from their sex assigned at birth or sex-related physical characteristics.

Transgender and gender-diverse people might experience gender dysphoria at some point in their lives. However, some transgender and gender-diverse people feel at ease with their bodies, with or without medical intervention

A diagnosis for gender dysphoria is included in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM-5), a manual published by the American Psychiatric Association. The diagnosis was created to help people with gender dysphoria get access to necessary health care and effective treatment. The term focuses on discomfort as the problem, rather than identity.

Yeah?

What about it?

-- A2SG, got a point lurking around somewhere?