Do sacraments save?

[ViaCrucis]

Acts 10 does not suggest anything about infant baptism in fact let's look at the passage regarding baptism

First let's be clear, what causes the remission of sins, baptism? No. whosoever believeth in Him.. in Jesus.


The Holy Spirit indwelt the people as they believed, before any water baptism. They heard the Word of God regarding Jesus, they believed, and were saved.
bam.
no sacraments, no good works, they were saved by faith alone at that moment.


The condition for them being baptized was them receiving the Holy Ghost, them being saved.
wow, it sounds like it supports Believer's Baptism, not infant baptism.


They got baptized AFTER they got saved.

If that is not the passage of Acts 10 you were referring to, I pray tell me what was, because I see in it support for Believer's Baptism, and being baptized after salvation not before or as a means of salvation.




There is a distinct difference. Someone will approach me with the gospel. I was approached with the gospel multiple times before I believed it (to be fair the first few times I was too young to understand it, and was actually presented the Catholic version of the gospel, by works. I knew pretty much right off the bat once I understood the concept of sin that there was no way you were working your way in. So I rejected that. But anyway, that's passive. I was minding my own business, and people I knew approached me to witness to me, my neighbors kept planting seeds in me until they took root. True, it took an invitation to VBS to actually get a better gospel presentation that made sense to me and Jesus seemed so amazing that I wanted to meet Him finally. The Catholic presentation of it had Jesus as the Son of God but I was supposed to save myself through my own works, and why Jesus was important didn't make sense if I was doing the work. God seemed impossible to please and so I wasn't pleased with God. However, learning that I could not please God, and I was surely condemned, yeah, I resonated with that, even the most righteous claiming people, that Catholic daycare I went to, were wicked sinners, I could see that in people, and myself.
To learn that not only was Jesus the Son of God but He actually DID something for me, I deserved to go to hell, and He died to take my place?
Made way more sense, and made all the difference from being indifferent to the Son of God to loving Him. From that point on, I may have struggled with other hard questions of theology, and had doubts in infallibility of the bible, etc... but what I did trust, what I did know, was Jesus. That was all I had to take hold on, so I did.
The rest has been a process of trusting the Word of God over time, and frankly, the teachings of men have made that harder, and not just the teachings of men in the world, but teachings of men within the church, "church traditions" etc.

So sure, I did accept the invitation to go to VBS, and went there, but I'd been passively receiving seeds the whole time, some good, some bad seeds to be fair. The bad seeds made the good seeds harder to take root.

Now on the otherhand... nobody's ever tried to baptize me while I'm just minding my own business, unlike witnessing and sharing their faith, I have to go and find a church, I have to find a church that even has a baptismal, I have to go enough to become a member of the church, I gotta have clothes I don't mind getting wet, similarly communion, the church in question doesn't just give that to anyone who walks in the door.

It's a far cry from just hearing the Word of God about Jesus and believing it.

But are people just walking up to you on the streets and offering you communion and baptism? No. You have to actively seek those things out, and be a part of a church, and it won't be on the first day you go in there. Baptisms in particular may need to be scheduled if they do them outdoors in natural bodies of water.

It's a significant difference between hearing and believing, vs seeking out a church to get baptized and take communion.

except they sought out a church to have it performed on them, vs Christian acquaintances actively seeking them out as a part of the great commission.

I've been debating with myself whether to attempt a point-by-point address, or simply acknowledge that there are deeper theological issues at play here that would need to be addressed.

I have often pointed out that, as a Lutheran, I disagree with programmatic views of salvation, that salvation involves a kind of step-by-step process. Do this, do that, X, Y, then Z. That's simply foreign to how Lutherans comprehend the very notion of salvation and how God saves us.

Let's take three scenarios:

1) A person is born, and they are baptized, as they grow up they begin learning more about the Christian faith, and they gain a deeper understanding of Christianity and of Jesus. Along the course of their life they encounter a lot of various bumps, for a while in college they gave up their faith altogether, but then they got married, had a kid of their own. They decided they wanted their child to be baptized like they were, so they start coming back to church. As they come every week, they find their faith growing again. They grow old, they watch their grandchildren grow up, and then they one day die in their sleep.

2) A person is born, their parents didn't go to a church that baptizes infants, so this person was never baptized. They are taught about Jesus, and His love, as they get older. Learning more about Christianity and a deeper understanding of Jesus. Their parents, according to the custom of their church, leads their child once they feel that child is ready to "accept Jesus". In high school this person falls into the wrong crowd, distances themselves from church and by college has thrown their faith away. But several years down the road they get married, and they have children of their own. And they feel something lacking, so they start going back to church. After a few months they recommit their lives to following Jesus and, never having been baptized before, they get baptized. They grow old, watch their grandchildren grow up, and then die of old age.

3) A person is born, their parents bring them to church to be baptized. But six months later this little child gets really sick, there's nothing the doctors can do about it, and that child tragically dies without having even reached their first birthday.

4) A person is born, they didn't have Christian parents so they were raised in a non-religious home. Their parents weren't anti-religious, they just weren't religious themselves. So this person never really thought about religion, didn't really know much about Christianity or Jesus outside of a kind of generalized exposure, maybe some Christian friends at school, movies, TV shows that didn't really do a good job at all explaining the Christian religion at all. They go to college, graduate. Then as a young adult they meet someone, this person is a Christian, and they find themselves curious and asking questions. Eventually they visit a church. And then one Sunday while visiting they hear something that makes their whole self freeze up. And they have a kind of Road to Damascus kind of experience, it's like scales fall from their eyes. They wanted to talk with the pastor after the service, but the pastor ended up busy talking with a few other members of the congregation and it seemed important, so they decide to talk to the pastor the following Sunday about how to become a Christian. On their way home that day another vehicle hits them head on the driver's side, and they died instantly.

From a Lutheran POV each and every single one of these people was saved. Because in each example given, God used Word and Sacrament to create faith.

When Lutherans talk about "means of grace" we aren't saying, "There is a step-by-step process by which a person gets saved". We are saying that God has provided a big voice to declare to people that He loves them, that Christ died for them, and that God is right here in His grace to take hold of sinners, declare their sins are forgiven. The Father welcomes us with the warm embrace of Christ, to cling to us in love. Like the father of the prodigal son, rushing out to meet the long-lost child, so too does God rush to meet us. He rushes out to meet us in the preaching of the word, in the waters of baptism, in the Lord's Supper.

The Sacraments are not red velvet ropes keeping people outside like the entrance to an exclusive club. The Sacraments are doorways and windows through which God moves and acts. The Church is not barricaded and with heavy doors, but rather the doors are flung open wide and Word and Sacrament is Christ, through the Church, yelling "Come!" "Come all who are weary! I will give you rest!" Here is bread which one eats and will never again hunger, water which quenches thirst, here is the voice of a Shepherd who loves His lambs. Here is the green pasture that restores the soul, the cup that runneth over at the table prepared for us, beside cool clear waters. The LORD, He is our Shepherd, and we shall not be in want.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Valletta]

as a tangent to this question, what do you believe is the destiny of a stillbirth or abortion victim? They are never born alive and thus not baptized, nor could receive the gospel and believe it, so by the ways that each of us would say is salvific, they wouldn't have those. I believe they are still taken to Jesus and saved, because thy are unable to be accountable for any sin.

But anyway, if the baptism does not save them why are you considering it salvific? If they fail to do confirmation and communion and are thus not saved, then baptism didn't save them, right? I would point to confirmation as being closer to salvific.
Because would confirmation satisfy Romans 10:9?

Your logic is faulty. If Baptism does not save someone that is not baptized, that does not mean the Bible is wrong and Baptism is not salvific.
God continues to save us and, as has been brought up in this thread, God is not limited by the way he can save people. Trust in God's mercy.

 

[Valletta]

I've been debating with myself whether to attempt a point-by-point address, or simply acknowledge that there are deeper theological issues at play here that would need to be addressed.

I have often pointed out that, as a Lutheran, I disagree with programmatic views of salvation, that salvation involves a kind of step-by-step process. Do this, do that, X, Y, then Z. That's simply foreign to how Lutherans comprehend the very notion of salvation and how God saves us.

Let's take three scenarios:

1) A person is born, and they are baptized, as they grow up they begin learning more about the Christian faith, and they gain a deeper understanding of Christianity and of Jesus. Along the course of their life they encounter a lot of various bumps, for a while in college they gave up their faith altogether, but then they got married, had a kid of their own. They decided they wanted their child to be baptized like they were, so they start coming back to church. As they come every week, they find their faith growing again. They grow old, they watch their grandchildren grow up, and then they one day die in their sleep.

2) A person is born, their parents didn't go to a church that baptizes infants, so this person was never baptized. They are taught about Jesus, and His love, as they get older. Learning more about Christianity and a deeper understanding of Jesus. Their parents, according to the custom of their church, leads their child once they feel that child is ready to "accept Jesus". In high school this person falls into the wrong crowd, distances themselves from church and by college has thrown their faith away. But several years down the road they get married, and they have children of their own. And they feel something lacking, so they start going back to church. After a few months they recommit their lives to following Jesus and, never having been baptized before, they get baptized. They grow old, watch their grandchildren grow up, and then die of old age.

3) A person is born, their parents bring them to church to be baptized. But six months later this little child gets really sick, there's nothing the doctors can do about it, and that child tragically dies without having even reached their first birthday.

4) A person is born, they didn't have Christian parents so they were raised in a non-religious home. Their parents weren't anti-religious, they just weren't religious themselves. So this person never really thought about religion, didn't really know much about Christianity or Jesus outside of a kind of generalized exposure, maybe some Christian friends at school, movies, TV shows that didn't really do a good job at all explaining the Christian religion at all. They go to college, graduate. Then as a young adult they meet someone, this person is a Christian, and they find themselves curious and asking questions. Eventually they visit a church. And then one Sunday while visiting they hear something that makes their whole self freeze up. And they have a kind of Road to Damascus kind of experience, it's like scales fall from their eyes. They wanted to talk with the pastor after the service, but the pastor ended up busy talking with a few other members of the congregation and it seemed important, so they decide to talk to the pastor the following Sunday about how to become a Christian. On their way home that day another vehicle hits them head on the driver's side, and they died instantly.

From a Lutheran POV each and every single one of these people was saved. Because in each example given, God used Word and Sacrament to create faith.

When Lutherans talk about "means of grace" we aren't saying, "There is a step-by-step process by which a person gets saved". We are saying that God has provided a big voice to declare to people that He loves them, that Christ died for them, and that God is right here in His grace to take hold of sinners, declare their sins are forgiven. The Father welcomes us with the warm embrace of Christ, to cling to us in love. Like the father of the prodigal son, rushing out to meet the long-lost child, so too does God rush to meet us. He rushes out to meet us in the preaching of the word, in the waters of baptism, in the Lord's Supper.

The Sacraments are not red velvet ropes keeping people outside like the entrance to an exclusive club. The Sacraments are doorways and windows through which God moves and acts. The Church is not barricaded and with heavy doors, but rather the doors are flung open wide and Word and Sacrament is Christ, through the Church, yelling "Come!" "Come all who are weary! I will give you rest!" Here is bread which one eats and will never again hunger, water which quenches thirst, here is the voice of a Shepherd who loves His lambs. Here is the green pasture that restores the soul, the cup that runneth over at the table prepared for us, beside cool clear waters. The LORD, He is our Shepherd, and we shall not be in want.

-CryptoLutheran

Salvation normally is not a one time event. That does not mean it is necessarily step by step. God gives us the sacraments through which we can receive graces. We can accept or reject the sacraments. Through the sacraments of Baptism and of Reconciliation we can know that our sins are forgiven.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Salvation normally is not a one time event. That does not mean it is necessarily step by step. God gives us the sacraments through which we can receive graces. We can accept or reject the sacraments. Through the sacraments of Baptism and of Reconciliation we can know that our sins are forgiven.

If only our interlocutors would acknowledge that God can use means to save as well as to act directly without means; if only our interlocutors would agree that baptism as well as the cross and the Holy Spirit as well as faith all work together in the salvation of God's people. Pray God that this will be so.

 

[Jamdoc]

Your logic is faulty. If Baptism does not save someone that is not baptized, that does not mean the Bible is wrong and Baptism is not salvific.
God continues to save us and, as has been brought up in this thread, God is not limited by the way he can save people. Trust in God's mercy.

My point is, there's a specific thing that is salvific, there is simplicity in Christ and salvation can in fact be broken down to 1 simple thing, and it's not baptism.

If all they had going for them was being baptized as a baby, you did not say that they are saved through that alone, therefore, it's not the baptism that saves.
The one thing that does save, is faith in Jesus Christ, it is a faith that will do things like make you get baptized and take communion, and obey God and do good works if you are able, there are some scenarios where you are limited in what you are able to do.
But salvation itself is a free gift.

 

[Valletta]

My point is, there's a specific thing that is salvific, there is simplicity in Christ and salvation can in fact be broken down to 1 simple thing, and it's not baptism.

If all they had going for them was being baptized as a baby, you did not say that they are saved through that alone, therefore, it's not the baptism that saves.
The one thing that does save, is faith in Jesus Christ, it is a faith that will do things like make you get baptized and take communion, and obey God and do good works if you are able, there are some scenarios where you are limited in what you are able to do.
But salvation itself is a free gift.

Your teaching that "salvation can in fact be broken down to 1 simple thing" is contradicted by the Bible, because the Bible says Baptism saves and also that faith saves.

 

[Jamdoc]

I've been debating with myself whether to attempt a point-by-point address, or simply acknowledge that there are deeper theological issues at play here that would need to be addressed.

I mean biblically it seems simple enough, in acts, they were preached to, they believe in Christ, they received the Holy Spirit, and then they got baptized afterward, and then in epistles Paul says now they're furnished for good works.

But admittedly, there are situations where it can seem murkier. Baptists would look at scenarios like your first two:

1) A person is born, and they are baptized, as they grow up they begin learning more about the Christian faith, and they gain a deeper understanding of Christianity and of Jesus. Along the course of their life they encounter a lot of various bumps, for a while in college they gave up their faith altogether, but then they got married, had a kid of their own. They decided they wanted their child to be baptized like they were, so they start coming back to church. As they come every week, they find their faith growing again. They grow old, they watch their grandchildren grow up, and then they one day die in their sleep.

2) A person is born, their parents didn't go to a church that baptizes infants, so this person was never baptized. They are taught about Jesus, and His love, as they get older. Learning more about Christianity and a deeper understanding of Jesus. Their parents, according to the custom of their church, leads their child once they feel that child is ready to "accept Jesus". In high school this person falls into the wrong crowd, distances themselves from church and by college has thrown their faith away. But several years down the road they get married, and they have children of their own. And they feel something lacking, so they start going back to church. After a few months they recommit their lives to following Jesus and, never having been baptized before, they get baptized. They grow old, watch their grandchildren grow up, and then die of old age.

and they'd say that neither of these two people were saved until they returned to the church, because of 1 John 2:19

However, my experience is that sons do go prodigal. one can have faith in Jesus, and then backslide even for years, and then bounce back. In my own experience that happened, and from my experience, God keeps trying to bring you back like a bungee cord, and it takes effort to keep the distance out of anger, you'll get chastised and pushed into a corner where only Jesus is left and you relent on your season of rebellion. You knew the truth the whole time, even if you were making claims like "I'm an atheist now", but when God called you still answered, you still found yourself talking to God even though you were mad at Him at the time, but like a Father, you still have a place at home, He's still waiting, ... and He'll keep finding ways to make your backslide very inconvenient for you until you admit He's right and come back home stinking of pig and muck asking to be made a servant.

So, it is possible these could have been saved the whole time, you didn't specify the important part.. did they actually believe Jesus was the Son of God and died for their sins? Without that belief all their learning.. not salvific, their baptism, not salvific, church activity, not salvific.
It depends most importantly on what their faith was in before we talk about whether or not they lost their faith.
I'm a little different from most baptists in that I do believe that while not possible to be taken out of the faith, you can freely walk away of your own volition... to an extent.. just God will bungee cord you back to Him, and you will be worse for wear from the experience.
Most baptists will say it's impossible to walk away from the faith, and say anyone who seems to have was never saved in the first place.
But I'm not a 5 point calvinist for sure I wholly reject Irresistable Grace. You can definitely resist it, people can get preached the Gospel dozens of times and reject it until finally coming to faith, and people can backslide and snap back of their own volition.

3) A person is born, their parents bring them to church to be baptized. But six months later this little child gets really sick, there's nothing the doctors can do about it, and that child tragically dies without having even reached their first birthday.

I would say the baptism isn't what saves the child here, but rather that they're too immature to be accountable for sin

4) A person is born, they didn't have Christian parents so they were raised in a non-religious home. Their parents weren't anti-religious, they just weren't religious themselves. So this person never really thought about religion, didn't really know much about Christianity or Jesus outside of a kind of generalized exposure, maybe some Christian friends at school, movies, TV shows that didn't really do a good job at all explaining the Christian religion at all. They go to college, graduate. Then as a young adult they meet someone, this person is a Christian, and they find themselves curious and asking questions. Eventually they visit a church. And then one Sunday while visiting they hear something that makes their whole self freeze up. And they have a kind of Road to Damascus kind of experience, it's like scales fall from their eyes. They wanted to talk with the pastor after the service, but the pastor ended up busy talking with a few other members of the congregation and it seemed important, so they decide to talk to the pastor the following Sunday about how to become a Christian. On their way home that day another vehicle hits them head on the driver's side, and they died instantly.

They were saved because they came to faith, no further steps were necessary.

From a Lutheran POV each and every single one of these people was saved. Because in each example given, God used Word and Sacrament to create faith.

When Lutherans talk about "means of grace" we aren't saying, "There is a step-by-step process by which a person gets saved". We are saying that God has provided a big voice to declare to people that He loves them, that Christ died for them, and that God is right here in His grace to take hold of sinners, declare their sins are forgiven. The Father welcomes us with the warm embrace of Christ, to cling to us in love. Like the father of the prodigal son, rushing out to meet the long-lost child, so too does God rush to meet us. He rushes out to meet us in the preaching of the word, in the waters of baptism, in the Lord's Supper.

The Sacraments are not red velvet ropes keeping people outside like the entrance to an exclusive club. The Sacraments are doorways and windows through which God moves and acts. The Church is not barricaded and with heavy doors, but rather the doors are flung open wide and Word and Sacrament is Christ, through the Church, yelling "Come!" "Come all who are weary! I will give you rest!" Here is bread which one eats and will never again hunger, water which quenches thirst, here is the voice of a Shepherd who loves His lambs. Here is the green pasture that restores the soul, the cup that runneth over at the table prepared for us, beside cool clear waters. The LORD, He is our Shepherd, and we shall not be in want.

-CryptoLutheran

I look at it as a single step, faith. Acting on that faith is what demonstrates it, proves it's real, but it is the faith that saves.

People talk about James but I think they misunderstand him.
James 2

18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

It's not that works is a requirement to be saved, that would dispute with Romans 4

3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

and Romans 11

6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

the fact that James uses the same example of Abraham that Paul used does show that James is aware of Paul's teachings. He's not entirely disagreeing with them, he's just pointing something out.
"Do you really have faith if you don't act on it?"

but I don't think that James would expect a disabled believer to go around door to door witnessing and helping build hospitals. Yes I'm aware of Joni Tada etc, but not everyone has her resources and help to work with. Some people may be just.. bed ridden, that doesn't mean they can't be saved because they can't do works. James is just expecting that people live out their faith as they are able, to show, that they do have faith.

 

[Jamdoc]

Your teaching that "salvation can in fact be broken down to 1 simple thing" is contradicted by the Bible, because the Bible says Baptism saves and also that faith saves.

the bible has multiple statements where faith is the single thing required, Jesus didn't say "that whosoever believeth in him, and get baptized, and take communion, and do good works, should not perish, but have everlasting life"
He had just a single step.

as I keep pointing out, Peter was giving an illustration, comparing baptism to the flood of Noah, and the Death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus. It's part of why Baptists insist on immersion for baptism, because it is a picture of Jesus' death and burial and resurrection, the same picture Peter makes of it.
That picture doesn't work with sprinkling or pouring though, you are not "buried" with Christ with sprinkling, Peter says it doesn't even wash away the filth of the flesh.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

the bible has multiple statements where faith is the single thing required, Jesus didn't say "that whosoever believeth in him, and get baptized, and take communion, and do good works, should not perish, but have everlasting life"
He had just a single step.

as I keep pointing out, Peter was giving an illustration, comparing baptism to the flood of Noah, and the Death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus. It's part of why Baptists insist on immersion for baptism, because it is a picture of Jesus' death and burial and resurrection, the same picture Peter makes of it.
That picture doesn't work with sprinkling or pouring though, you are not "buried" with Christ with sprinkling, Peter says it doesn't even wash away the filth of the flesh.

Water and the word is all that is required, how it is administered, sprinkled, poured, dunked like a donut, it is valid. You seem to be forgetting that is is God, not what we do, that makes it efficacious.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

My point is, there's a specific thing that is salvific, there is simplicity in Christ and salvation can in fact be broken down to 1 simple thing, and it's not baptism.

If all they had going for them was being baptized as a baby, you did not say that they are saved through that alone, therefore, it's not the baptism that saves.
The one thing that does save, is faith in Jesus Christ, it is a faith that will do things like make you get baptized and take communion, and obey God and do good works if you are able, there are some scenarios where you are limited in what you are able to do.
But salvation itself is a free gift.

So by your logic, there are limits on the means of grace; God can only grant grace if you fully cooperate with your faith. To me that sounds self centered rather than Christ centered. I take our Lord's promises at face value; which includes the sacraments which He. Himself instituted.

 

[dzheremi]

It would be interesting to see the range of interpretations we might get in this thread of an event like Jesus' healing of the father's possessed son in Mark 9, as Christ reminds the boy's father that all things are possible to those who believe, and the father very interestingly replies "Lord, I believe! Help now my unbelief." Our Lord then indeed calls the unclean spirit out of the boy, leaving him appearing as 'one who is dead' to many who witnessed this happen, only to revive him by taking him by the hand.

That's at least a couple miracles right there done for one who had openly admitted to maintaining some level of unbelief, even though he didn't want to. What do we make of that? If nothing else, it would seem to complicate the simple picture some seem to have where salvation is as easy as knowing how to 'get saved' and acting accordingly.

 

[ViaCrucis]

I mean biblically it seems simple enough, in acts, they were preached to, they believe in Christ, they received the Holy Spirit, and then they got baptized afterward, and then in epistles Paul says now they're furnished for good works.

But admittedly, there are situations where it can seem murkier. Baptists would look at scenarios like your first two:




and they'd say that neither of these two people were saved until they returned to the church, because of 1 John 2:19

However, my experience is that sons do go prodigal. one can have faith in Jesus, and then backslide even for years, and then bounce back. In my own experience that happened, and from my experience, God keeps trying to bring you back like a bungee cord, and it takes effort to keep the distance out of anger, you'll get chastised and pushed into a corner where only Jesus is left and you relent on your season of rebellion. You knew the truth the whole time, even if you were making claims like "I'm an atheist now", but when God called you still answered, you still found yourself talking to God even though you were mad at Him at the time, but like a Father, you still have a place at home, He's still waiting, ... and He'll keep finding ways to make your backslide very inconvenient for you until you admit He's right and come back home stinking of pig and muck asking to be made a servant.

So, it is possible these could have been saved the whole time, you didn't specify the important part.. did they actually believe Jesus was the Son of God and died for their sins? Without that belief all their learning.. not salvific, their baptism, not salvific, church activity, not salvific.
It depends most importantly on what their faith was in before we talk about whether or not they lost their faith.
I'm a little different from most baptists in that I do believe that while not possible to be taken out of the faith, you can freely walk away of your own volition... to an extent.. just God will bungee cord you back to Him, and you will be worse for wear from the experience.
Most baptists will say it's impossible to walk away from the faith, and say anyone who seems to have was never saved in the first place.
But I'm not a 5 point calvinist for sure I wholly reject Irresistable Grace. You can definitely resist it, people can get preached the Gospel dozens of times and reject it until finally coming to faith, and people can backslide and snap back of their own volition.

I would say the baptism isn't what saves the child here, but rather that they're too immature to be accountable for sin

They were saved because they came to faith, no further steps were necessary.

I look at it as a single step, faith. Acting on that faith is what demonstrates it, proves it's real, but it is the faith that saves.

People talk about James but I think they misunderstand him.
James 2


It's not that works is a requirement to be saved, that would dispute with Romans 4

and Romans 11


the fact that James uses the same example of Abraham that Paul used does show that James is aware of Paul's teachings. He's not entirely disagreeing with them, he's just pointing something out.
"Do you really have faith if you don't act on it?"

but I don't think that James would expect a disabled believer to go around door to door witnessing and helping build hospitals. Yes I'm aware of Joni Tada etc, but not everyone has her resources and help to work with. Some people may be just.. bed ridden, that doesn't mean they can't be saved because they can't do works. James is just expecting that people live out their faith as they are able, to show, that they do have faith.

We both agree that it is faith. Where we disagree is how God works to give faith.

Lutherans agree that God can save a person without that person being baptized. Because we do not teach "baptism alone", we teach Word and Sacrament.

We look at passages such as Mark 16:16 as important here, "Whoever believes and is baptized shall be saved, but whoever does not believe is condemned."

We note that it says "believe and is baptized" is connected with salvation, but only the lack of faith is connected with condemnation.

So if a person can be saved outside of the usual means of baptism, does that make baptism non-salvific? No.

Because baptism accomplishes what it conveys. Scripture says that the person who is baptized as "put on Christ". We can't just pretend that Galatians 3:27 doesn't say what it says, or try and pretend it means something other than what it says. It says what it says, and means what it says. We are, truly and really, clothed with Jesus Christ in the Sacrament of Holy Baptism. That actually happens, by the grace and power of God.

The baptized infant, we say therefore, has faith. Because faith isn't something that we climb the ladder up to God to give Him, that we say, "Here is my faith God" and God responds to our faith by saying "Very good, I save you". Salvation is not a transaction where we give God this thing of ours called "faith" and in exchange for our faith God gives us this thing called "salvation".

Salvation is not a transaction between the good I give God in exchange for a good that He gives me.

There IS an exchange that has taken place, but this is the Happy Exchange that took place on the cross. Christ took my sin and death, and on the cross exchanged it with His righteousness and resurrected life.

The work is already done. Christ already did it. The place where sinners are forgiven and declared righteous before God is on a hill outside of ancient Jerusalem called Calvary, Golgotha, Skull.

The question, then, is how can I now receive and benefit from Christ's work? There is no further work to be done, Christ has already done it. But how can I now receive that work as gift, benefit from it.

And that's where faith comes into play, faith is God climbing down the ladder to us, in Word and Sacrament, to give us this faith.

We do not hear the word and then climb a ladder up to give God this possession of ours called faith. God climbs down the ladder in His word, and gives us faith, makes faith our possession as a gift; this giving of faith IS the new birth. For faith is created in us by the Holy Spirit, the Holy Spirit does not come after we have faith; the Holy Spirit comes and here is faith.

Thus it becomes impossible to separate these things: Word and Sacrament, faith, and the Holy Spirit.

And what's more, it's not about some instantaneous moment; it's about the continual grace and work of God.

I don't receive faith one time and then that's that. God is continually giving me faith, creating and working faith in me, strengthening faith in me.

Whenever I hear the Gospel being preached, whenever God in His word is speaking to me about His love and grace and kindness in Jesus Christ for me--there is faith being given to me. And if there is faith here being given to me, then also here is the imputed righteousness of Jesus. So that I am being (present tense) freely justified by the grace of God.

So in the scenarios I provided above, I agree that faith was the essence; but that baptized infant had faith, because God works and creates faith by coming down to us through Word and Sacrament to do this. Not because the infant got a free ticket to salvation by being young enough (if this were so, then the cruelest thing we could do to our children is let them live beyond the years of their infancy). But where you see faith as a moment where a person made a decision, or gained some kind of understanding, or the like; I understand that faith is what happens when God comes down and changes us by His grace, and the locus of that gracious work and power is Word and Sacrament.

Word and Sacrament, therefore is not man ascending to God; it is God descending to man.

God comes down in His word.
God comes down in Baptism.
God comes down in the Eucharist.
Etc.

So, then, consider this ancient Eucharistic Hymn,

"Let all mortal flesh keep silence,
and with fear and trembling stand;
ponder nothing earthly minded,
for, with blessing in His hand,
Christ our God to earth descendeth,
our full homage to demand.

King of kings, yet born of Mary,
as of old on earth He stood,
Lord of lords, in human vesture,
in the body and the blood.
He will give to all the faithful
His own self for heav'nly food."

This isn't referring to the Incarnation, this hymn is historically about the Lord's Supper.

Here, at the Table, Christ our God comes down, He who was born of Mary and who reigns as Lord of lords on High at the right hand of the Father, His own body and blood to all the Faithful, Himself, as the food that sustains us in this Sacrament of the Altar.

God comes down.

We see this anticipated in Christ's own baptism. It is no accident that when Christ came up from the water that the voice of the Father descended from heaven saying, "This is My Beloved Son" or that the Holy Spirit descended in the form of a dove and lighted upon Christ. For that here in the water was Father, Son, and Holy Spirit--not up on high ascended, but down here descended.

God comes down.
God always comes down.
That's the Gospel.
That's our salvation.
God always comes down.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[ViaCrucis]

It would be interesting to see the range of interpretations we might get in this thread of an event like Jesus' healing of the father's possessed son in Mark 9, as Christ reminds the boy's father that all things are possible to those who believe, and the father very interestingly replies "Lord, I believe! Help now my unbelief." Our Lord then indeed calls the unclean spirit out of the boy, leaving him appearing as 'one who is dead' to many who witnessed this happen, only to revive him by taking him by the hand.

That's at least a couple miracles right there done for one who had openly admitted to maintaining some level of unbelief, even though he didn't want to. What do we make of that? If nothing else, it would seem to complicate the simple picture some seem to have where salvation is as easy as knowing how to 'get saved' and acting accordingly.

At least from the Lutheran POV, "Lord I believe, help my unbelief" is a perfect statement of what the Christian life looks like. Faith is not an object I possess, as though I give it to God once and I "get saved", or even that God gives me once and that I "get saved".

Faith is, instead, the continual relationship between myself and God who gives Himself continually through Word and Sacrament. God continually, constantly, coming down and working. So that I can say, "Lord I believe", for God gives me faith to believe; and also "Help my unbelief!" because I remain in a constant state of struggle against the old man, with all those sinful lusts and passions, who wages war against the new.

I am simul iustus et peccator, both saint and sinner. I am both a new person in Christ by faith and the old man which needs to be daily put to death.

Faith is not an easy ride to blissful everafter. It is the daily dependence upon God for everything, and by God's grace to be put to death and live again in Christ.

"Remember your baptism" is an oft-repeated Lutheran refrain. For our baptism, of course, was a one time event; but the reality of that baptism applies to every facet of life, ongoing. We, therefore, freely confess our sins, 1 John 1:9, because in Holy Absolution God forgives us, because He promised to, because we remember our baptism and what God has freely given us therein. When we approach the Holy Table of Christ, we remember our baptism, for here at the Table is forgiveness of our sins--the broken body and shed blood of Jesus Christ.

The Christian life is a life hidden in Christ. "I am the True Vine and you are the branches"

That the cross should ever be before us, to boast in nothing and to know nothing but Christ and Him crucified. For here, in Christ alone, have I anything and everything; and am therefore the child of God.

That is faith.

I am not made a believer, and then just do whatever I want "without Me you can do nothing".
I am made a believer, and am made so daily.

I did not, at one point in my life decide to follow Jesus and then I can just shake the dust off my hands and pat myself on the back for a job well done.

God meets me in my unworthiness as a sinner, gives me everything. And so since daily God provides for me, daily He calls me to come and follow. Daily Christ says, "Take up your cross and follow Me" and, to my great shame, nearly daily I fail to do just that. God be merciful to me a sinner, Lord I believe, help my unbelief.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[PsaltiChrysostom]

So, then, consider this ancient Eucharistic Hymn,

"Let all mortal flesh keep silence,
and with fear and trembling stand;
ponder nothing earthly minded,
for, with blessing in His hand,
Christ our God to earth descendeth,
our full homage to demand.


-CryptoLutheran

I wish that we sang this more frequently, but in the Orthodox Church it is only used on Holy Saturday morning. This is the version we sing in Plagal 1 in Greek.

 

[Jamdoc]

Water and the word is all that is required, how it is administered, sprinkled, poured, dunked like a donut, it is valid. You seem to be forgetting that is is God, not what we do, that makes it efficacious.

Thing is, water baptism doesn't save, in the bible they're being filled with the holy spirit and getting baptized after. They're already saved.
and the only proscribed method of baptism in the bible, is immersion
and believing in Jesus is required first (Believer's Baptism) because the whole picture of it doesn't even make sense to an unbeliever.
To a believer it's a picture of Christ's burial and resurrection.
sprinkling and pouring doesn't bury, and so that picture doesn't work, and instead you work it out to be some ritual that actually washes away sins, but it's like the old testament sacrifices, they were pictures of Jesus' sacrifice, they did not actually save anyone.

Hebrews 10

1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.
2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.
3 But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.
4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.

The sacrifices were done to obey God, to show that sin has a price, and pointing to the price being the death of the sinless Son of God, the Lamb without blemish. But the sacrifices themselves never absolved sin.

It is the same with baptism. Baptism shows a picture of Christ's death and resurrection, but the water does not wash away sins. Sin can't be washed away to be fair, Jesus does not save by washing away sin. Jesus saves by substituting Himself in your place and paying for those sins.

If animal sacrifice could purify someone from sin, then there'd be no reason for the Son of God to have died.
If water could wash away sin, then there'd be no reason for the Son of God to have died.
But no. sin cannot just be overlooked and forgiven, it has to be punished by a Holy and Just God, or there is no justice. Jesus had to die because our sins must be punished, justice had to be mete out and we are incapable of bearing the punishment that we deserve
So the Word of God became flesh, to die to satisfy God's need for justice, but also His good pleasure in being merciful.
Modern day Judaism and Islam believe that God can just forgive sin, with no justice ever being done. That is underestimating just how Holy God is.

Therefore, and I don't mean to be offensive to your traditions... but the sacrament rituals do not purify you, they do not remove your sin. Jesus had to die to atone for your sin.

Baptism can be an experience that puts into perspective of Jesus having to die for you
Communion and the broken bread that represents Jesus' body, and the wine that represents His blood spilt, can make you think about every time you sin, this is what Jesus had to go through on your behalf, His body broken, His blood spilled, and being buried, all because we sinned and there was no other way for God to be both merciful and just, than to become flesh, and die.
But if those things could save? Why'd Jesus have to die?

 

[Jamdoc]

So by your logic, there are limits on the means of grace; God can only grant grace if you fully cooperate with your faith. To me that sounds self centered rather than Christ centered. I take our Lord's promises at face value; which includes the sacraments which He. Himself instituted.

It's not a limitation

maybe I'm coming across wrong. See my response pointing to Hebrews 10, what I'm trying to say is the thing that saves is not a means of "washing away sin" or even "forgiving sin" though our sins are forgiven but it was because those sins were paid for by Jesus dying.
Both communion and baptism, as well as all the previous animal sacrifices, all pointed to Christ's death.
You take communion because it reminds you, in a visceral experience, that Christ died for your sins. Rather than a ritual that does something salvific on you, it's a remembrance that works as part of maintaining your relationship with Christ.
Like I know I'm coming across as salvation being a one time thing, and to an extent it is, but what salvation does more than just an on off switch, it is a relationship, and if that relationship is genuine.. you seek that relationship out, and do things to foster that relationship, make it grow, make it a positive relationship in your life.

Like your Earthly father, once you're born you don't stop being his son, but that relationship may be strained and rocky on account of your actions. Do you visit your father? do you call him regularly? Do you listen to him when he has advice? Do you rely on him for help when you need it? You don't do these extra things to become his son, that already happened at a single event in the past, but you do these things because you love your father, and want to spend time with him and have a good relationship with him.

God is called Father to show that that's the kind of relationship we should have.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Thing is, water baptism doesn't save,

In the Bible it does. 1 Peter 3:21

ὃ καὶ ἡμᾶς ἀντίτυπον νῦν σῴζει βάπτισμα οὐ σαρκὸς ἀπόθεσις ῥύπου ἀλλὰ συνειδήσεως ἀγαθῆς ἐπερώτημα εἰς θεόν δι᾽ ἀναστάσεως Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ

"And the antitype of this [the water through which eight souls were saved, 1 Peter 3:20], baptism, now saves us. Not removing dirt from flesh, rather an appeal/answer of good conscience toward God by Jesus Christ's resurrection"

In 1 Peter 3:20 Peter writes that eight souls were saved by water, the water here is the type, and baptism is the antitype, ἀντίτυπον, which now saves us. Even as God saved eight lives through the waters of the flood, so now we are saved through the waters of baptism. Not by removing dirt off the skin (like bath water) but as a renewed conscience toward God, a change in disposition in relation to God, because of, by, through, by means of Christ's resurrection.

Christ is risen from the dead, and the power of His resurrection--that life which He has now--is the change of our very conscience; from one of guilt before God because our myriad sins which have kept us from God and into a state of clean, good, and new conscience. It is not dirt that is removed from the body in baptism that makes it significant (i.e. "getting wet") but the washing away of sin, and the guilt of our sin before God.

To suggest it means anything else is either to be sincerely wrong, or to be actively ignorant of the plain words of the Bible.

To suggest that baptism (which, by definition, involves water) lacks God's saving promise and power is a straight up denial of what the Bible clearly, unambiguously, says.

I can think of no reason to ignore or try and explain away what the Bible says about baptism except that there are those who don't know how to reconcile what the Bible says about baptism with what the Bible says about salvation by grace through faith. And so they, wrongly, imagine that these two propositions are somehow in conflict when they aren't.

And an honest reading of the Bible should utterly destroy that false dilemma. But that does require a radical readjustment of how one understands grace.

It does mean having to let go of wanting to be in charge of our own salvation. Not only is letting go of that hard, without grace, it's downright impossible. Because "The soulish man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are Spiritually understood" (1 Corinthians 2:14)

In and of ourselves, that is the old man, the old Adam, dead to God and enslaved to every selfish and self-glorying impulse, we can never believe, trust, or accept what God says and does. We always want to assert ourselves, we always want to lift ourselves up. We always want ourselves, not Jesus, to be center of our lives. We always want to boast of ourselves. Where is our glorying--our boasting--Paul asks, and the answer, "it is excluded" (Romans 3:27).

There is room for only one Lord.

The ship can only have one captain.
If Christ pilots, then it shall arrive at safe harbor.
But if we insist on holding that wheel, we shall ever and always drive it for dread rocks to make shipwreck of everything.

We must, by the mortification of our flesh, have our hands rent from the wheel. We must be cast down from our false throne. Christ alone is Savior and Lord.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Jamdoc]

In the Bible it does. 1 Peter 3:21

ὃ καὶ ἡμᾶς ἀντίτυπον νῦν σῴζει βάπτισμα οὐ σαρκὸς ἀπόθεσις ῥύπου ἀλλὰ συνειδήσεως ἀγαθῆς ἐπερώτημα εἰς θεόν δι᾽ ἀναστάσεως Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ

"And the antitype of this [the water through which eight souls were saved, 1 Peter 3:20], baptism, now saves us. Not removing dirt from flesh, rather an appeal/answer of good conscience toward God by Jesus Christ's resurrection"

In 1 Peter 3:20 Peter writes that eight souls were saved by water, the water here is the type, and baptism is the antitype, ἀντίτυπον, which now saves us. Even as God saved eight lives through the waters of the flood, so now we are saved through the waters of baptism. Not by removing dirt off the skin (like bath water) but as a renewed conscience toward God, a change in disposition in relation to God, because of, by, through, by means of Christ's resurrection.

Christ is risen from the dead, and the power of His resurrection--that life which He has now--is the change of our very conscience; from one of guilt before God because our myriad sins which have kept us from God and into a state of clean, good, and new conscience. It is not dirt that is removed from the body in baptism that makes it significant (i.e. "getting wet") but the washing away of sin, and the guilt of our sin before God.

To suggest it means anything else is either to be sincerely wrong, or to be actively ignorant of the plain words of the Bible.

To suggest that baptism (which, by definition, involves water) lacks God's saving promise and power is a straight up denial of what the Bible clearly, unambiguously, says.

I can think of no reason to ignore or try and explain away what the Bible says about baptism except that there are those who don't know how to reconcile what the Bible says about baptism with what the Bible says about salvation by grace through faith. And so they, wrongly, imagine that these two propositions are somehow in conflict when they aren't.

And an honest reading of the Bible should utterly destroy that false dilemma. But that does require a radical readjustment of how one understands grace.

It does mean having to let go of wanting to be in charge of our own salvation. Not only is letting go of that hard, without grace, it's downright impossible. Because "The soulish man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are Spiritually understood" (1 Corinthians 2:14)

In and of ourselves, that is the old man, the old Adam, dead to God and enslaved to every selfish and self-glorying impulse, we can never believe, trust, or accept what God says and does. We always want to assert ourselves, we always want to lift ourselves up. We always want ourselves, not Jesus, to be center of our lives. We always want to boast of ourselves. Where is our glorying--our boasting--Paul asks, and the answer, "it is excluded" (Romans 3:27).

There is room for only one Lord.

The ship can only have one captain.
If Christ pilots, then it shall arrive at safe harbor.
But if we insist on holding that wheel, we shall ever and always drive it for dread rocks to make shipwreck of everything.

We must, by the mortification of our flesh, have our hands rent from the wheel. We must be cast down from our false throne. Christ alone is Savior and Lord.

-CryptoLutheran

I've gone over that portion of 1 Peter a few times in the thread, but perhaps even more context will clear it up better.

1 Peter 3

8 Finally, be ye all of one mind, having compassion one of another, love as brethren, be pitiful, be courteous:
9 Not rendering evil for evil, or railing for railing: but contrariwise blessing; knowing that ye are thereunto called, that ye should inherit a blessing.
10 For he that will love life, and see good days, let him refrain his tongue from evil, and his lips that they speak no guile:
11 Let him eschew evil, and do good; let him seek peace, and ensue it.
12 For the eyes of the Lord are over the righteous, and his ears are open unto their prayers: but the face of the Lord is against them that do evil.
13 And who is he that will harm you, if ye be followers of that which is good?
14 But and if ye suffer for righteousness' sake, happy are ye: and be not afraid of their terror, neither be troubled;
15 But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:
16 Having a good conscience; that, whereas they speak evil of you, as of evildoers, they may be ashamed that falsely accuse your good conversation in Christ.
17 For it is better, if the will of God be so, that ye suffer for well doing, than for evil doing.

Alright, big chunk of context here, why? Because taking a verse out of context leads to all kinds of false doctrine. I'm starting with where it says finally, because this is the natural break where the previous point Peter was making ends, and a new one begins.

What's this context? This is Peter saying how to deal with people who wrong you and persecute you, who treat you bad. You're not to revile them back, but do good and bless them, and for 2 reasons.
1. God will reward it
2. It will give you opportunities to witness, that's what verse 15 is about, they curse you, you bless them, they ask why are you blessing them when they're cursing you, you share your hope in Jesus.
But primarily, Peter is talking about how a Christian is to deal with suffering, in particular suffering at the hands of other people. The question in verse 13, who will harm you if you do right? Followed by, well if you do right and are harmed, then you're blessed for suffering for righteousness' sake. Because Jesus promised that in the sermon on the mount.
Now continuing on that thought, Peter gives rationale to suffering persecution with grace:

18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

Suffer with grace and offer the hope of the gospel to people who persecute you, as Jesus suffered with grace and offered the gospel to the spirits in prison, and God was longsuffering while people were disobedient to Him, and ministered grace to Noah and his family.

So you see the subject at hand isn't about how to get saved, but rather how to witness to people who persecute you, to have a more grace filled and patient response even when people frankly don't deserve it (Lord help me with this I am such an impatient person)

NOW we get to the verse:

21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

#1, it's being said that it's a like figure, it is a symbol, as Paul explains in Romans 2, circumcision of the heart is more important than circumcision of the flesh. Paul isn't meaning have open heart surgery, circumcision is a symbolic gesture of being set apart from the world and dedicated to God, so, being dedicated to God is the important part, rather than the symbolic gesture. But Peter was comparing Baptism to 2 things, the flood of Noah, and the resurrection of Jesus.
#2. Peter says that the water does not put away the filth of the flesh, it doesn't wash away your sin.
#3. For a moment take the parenthesis out of the verse and reread it. "The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us by the resurrection of Jesus Christ." What's saving you is the resurrection of Jesus Christ, not the water.
#4. By going through baptism, you are identifying with the burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ

The subject matter of this entire point is not really baptism, baptism is a footnote towards the end. The flow was in how to deal with people who are mean to you, bear suffering patiently, and be prepared to witness if you're asked why, because Jesus suffered righteous for the unrighteous, and used it as a means to preach to the lost, and God suffered the unrighteous and ministered to Noah and his family, and we're saved because Jesus died and was resurrected, and the picture of this is baptism.

Peter didn't just throw out "oh yeah, we're saved by baptism", but that's what taking the verse out of context suggests. But in context.. different meaning, and frankly what he's saying saves us, is the resurrection of Jesus. Just like earlier he said that the Spirit quickens us.
Not water.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

Thing is, water baptism doesn't save, in the bible they're being filled with the holy spirit and getting baptized after. They're already saved.
and the only proscribed method of baptism in the bible, is immersion
and believing in Jesus is required first (Believer's Baptism) because the whole picture of it doesn't even make sense to an unbeliever.
To a believer it's a picture of Christ's burial and resurrection.
sprinkling and pouring doesn't bury, and so that picture doesn't work, and instead you work it out to be some ritual that actually washes away sins, but it's like the old testament sacrifices, they were pictures of Jesus' sacrifice, they did not actually save anyone.

Hebrews 10

The sacrifices were done to obey God, to show that sin has a price, and pointing to the price being the death of the sinless Son of God, the Lamb without blemish. But the sacrifices themselves never absolved sin.

It is the same with baptism. Baptism shows a picture of Christ's death and resurrection, but the water does not wash away sins. Sin can't be washed away to be fair, Jesus does not save by washing away sin. Jesus saves by substituting Himself in your place and paying for those sins.

If animal sacrifice could purify someone from sin, then there'd be no reason for the Son of God to have died.
If water could wash away sin, then there'd be no reason for the Son of God to have died.
But no. sin cannot just be overlooked and forgiven, it has to be punished by a Holy and Just God, or there is no justice. Jesus had to die because our sins must be punished, justice had to be mete out and we are incapable of bearing the punishment that we deserve
So the Word of God became flesh, to die to satisfy God's need for justice, but also His good pleasure in being merciful.
Modern day Judaism and Islam believe that God can just forgive sin, with no justice ever being done. That is underestimating just how Holy God is.

Therefore, and I don't mean to be offensive to your traditions... but the sacrament rituals do not purify you, they do not remove your sin. Jesus had to die to atone for your sin.

Baptism can be an experience that puts into perspective of Jesus having to die for you
Communion and the broken bread that represents Jesus' body, and the wine that represents His blood spilt, can make you think about every time you sin, this is what Jesus had to go through on your behalf, His body broken, His blood spilled, and being buried, all because we sinned and there was no other way for God to be both merciful and just, than to become flesh, and die.
But if those things could save? Why'd Jesus have to die?

The Bible speaks of whole households being baptized.

Answer one question for me (this one has always bothered me): If there is no salvation or means of grace in baptism, why is the mode of the baptism so important? That to me sounds like old testament legalism like that of the pharisees. Why is how it is done so important if it is no more than a symbol, akin to a mason's secret hand shake? Wizzing into the wind as they say.

 

[ViaCrucis]

I've gone over that portion of 1 Peter a few times in the thread, but perhaps even more context will clear it up better.

1 Peter 3

Alright, big chunk of context here, why? Because taking a verse out of context leads to all kinds of false doctrine. I'm starting with where it says finally, because this is the natural break where the previous point Peter was making ends, and a new one begins.

What's this context? This is Peter saying how to deal with people who wrong you and persecute you, who treat you bad. You're not to revile them back, but do good and bless them, and for 2 reasons.
1. God will reward it
2. It will give you opportunities to witness, that's what verse 15 is about, they curse you, you bless them, they ask why are you blessing them when they're cursing you, you share your hope in Jesus.
But primarily, Peter is talking about how a Christian is to deal with suffering, in particular suffering at the hands of other people. The question in verse 13, who will harm you if you do right? Followed by, well if you do right and are harmed, then you're blessed for suffering for righteousness' sake. Because Jesus promised that in the sermon on the mount.
Now continuing on that thought, Peter gives rationale to suffering persecution with grace:

Suffer with grace and offer the hope of the gospel to people who persecute you, as Jesus suffered with grace and offered the gospel to the spirits in prison, and God was longsuffering while people were disobedient to Him, and ministered grace to Noah and his family.

So you see the subject at hand isn't about how to get saved, but rather how to witness to people who persecute you, to have a more grace filled and patient response even when people frankly don't deserve it (Lord help me with this I am such an impatient person)

NOW we get to the verse:

#1, it's being said that it's a like figure, it is a symbol, as Paul explains in Romans 2, circumcision of the heart is more important than circumcision of the flesh. Paul isn't meaning have open heart surgery, circumcision is a symbolic gesture of being set apart from the world and dedicated to God, so, being dedicated to God is the important part, rather than the symbolic gesture. But Peter was comparing Baptism to 2 things, the flood of Noah, and the resurrection of Jesus.
#2. Peter says that the water does not put away the filth of the flesh, it doesn't wash away your sin.
#3. For a moment take the parenthesis out of the verse and reread it. "The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us by the resurrection of Jesus Christ." What's saving you is the resurrection of Jesus Christ, not the water.
#4. By going through baptism, you are identifying with the burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ

The subject matter of this entire point is not really baptism, baptism is a footnote towards the end. The flow was in how to deal with people who are mean to you, bear suffering patiently, and be prepared to witness if you're asked why, because Jesus suffered righteous for the unrighteous, and used it as a means to preach to the lost, and God suffered the unrighteous and ministered to Noah and his family, and we're saved because Jesus died and was resurrected, and the picture of this is baptism.

Peter didn't just throw out "oh yeah, we're saved by baptism", but that's what taking the verse out of context suggests. But in context.. different meaning, and frankly what he's saying saves us, is the resurrection of Jesus. Just like earlier he said that the Spirit quickens us.
Not water.

It is God's grace in saving that He shows His long-suffering. Christ, who was put to death for our sins, is the Example par excellence of how we, in imitation to Him, ought to be patient and long-suffering.

But Peter very much is talking about salvation. God in His patience is gracious toward us. Just as He was gracious toward Noah and his family, so He is gracious toward us in saving us.

You're not wrong about most of the context, but you seem to be evading a clear point of the text.

"But even if you should suffer for righteousness' sake, you will be blessed. Have no fear of them, nor be troubled, but in your hearts honor Christ the Lord as holy, always prepared to give answer to anyone who asks you for a reason for the hope that is in you, yet do it with gentleness and respect, having a good conscience, so that, when you are slandered, those who revile your good behavior in Christ may be put to shame. For it is better to suffer for doing good, if that should be God's will, than for doing evil.

For Christ also suffered once for the sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit, in which He went and proclaimed to the spirits in prison, because they formerly did not obey, when God's patience waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were saved through the water. Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, with angels, authorities, and powers having been subjected to Him.

Since therefore Christ suffered in the flesh, arm yourselves with the same way of thinking, for whoever has suffered in the flesh has ceased from sin, so as to live for the rest of the time in the flesh no longer for human passions but for the will of God. For the time that is past suffices for doing what the Gentiles want to do, living in sensuality, passions, drunkenness, orgies, drinking parties, and lawless idolatry. With respect to this they are surprised when you do not join them in the same flood of debauchery, and they malign you; but they will give account to Him who is ready to judge the living and the dead. For this is why the Gospel is preached even to those who are dead, that though judged in the flesh the way people are, they might live in the spirit the way God does." - 1 Peter 3:14-22 - 1 Peter 4:1-6

Why would we suffer for righteousness? Because we have what? Answer: a good conscience.

We can suffer for righteousness sake because something has changed about us. We received something.

Christ suffered once for sin, He being righteous and all the rest of us unrighteous, that He might what? Answer: Bring us to God.

In the same way that God, in His grace and patience saved Noah and his family through water, there is an antitype to this water, and that's baptism, "which now saves you".

You chose to cling to an English translation here, "like figure unto" in order to try and bolster an idea that baptism "figures" or merely represents, symbolically, something. But that's not at all what the text says in the Greek.

The Greek word here is antitypos. Antitypos is literally the opposite of the Greek word typos, a typos ("type") is a figure, an impression--it's ultimately where we get "type" as in the block letters used in the moveable-type printing press. And referring to "type-faces" aka "fonts", and to the "type-writer", etc. And derived from this is also where we speak of a "type" of something, "that's my type of person" meaning an impression of an idealized person; or a "type" of something, a generalized figure of a thing, a class of something.

The waters of the flood are the typos, the antitypos is baptism. The antitypos is not the impression or "figure", but the opposite. If I paint a picture of someone, that picture is the typos, the person themselves is the antitypos.

Baptism, the antitypos, is not the impression, but the concrete thing itself; baptism is what the waters of the flood anticipate, point toward as the fuller and greater reality.

The ancient sacrifices of Israel are typos, Christ's sacrifice on the cross is the antitypos.
The Kohen Gadol (high priest) of Israel is the typos, Christ as the Great High Priest is the antitypos.
The Tabernacle/Temple in Jerusalem was the typos, Christ who was crucified and rose again and said "tear down this temple and in three days I will raise it up again" and about whom John in His Gospel writes, "The Word became flesh and tabernacled in our midst" is the antitypos.

The things of old are the typos, the new things in Christ are the antitypos.

Baptism is the antitypos, not the typos. It is through this antitype, which the work of God's saving Noah and his family through the waters of the flood ultimately points, that God does what? Even as He saved them He does what for us now? He saves us.

"Which now saves us", .

So Christ having suffered once for sin shows us the long-suffering patience of God, shows us how we too shall be patient. Not because we can, by our own power be like God. But rather because God who is long-suffering rescues us, reconciles us, and does what? Gives us a good conscience toward God.

A good conscience, a new conscience, by which we now no longer living as slaves to the passions of the flesh but alive unto God by the new life we have in Christ by His resurrection. This new conscience by which we, formerly disobedient and slaves to the passions, have a new obedience should be found patient, and giving answer to the hope that we have, being kind, gentle, respectful in all that we do. Suffering, if it is God's will, for the good that we do rather than evil. For those who malign us, who revile us, who slander us for being obedient to God, in suffering for God with patience, they will one day be judged--but we vindicated. Vindicated not because of our own righteousness, but vindicated in the righteousness of Jesus--He who suffered as the righteous for the unrighteous.

You weren't altogether wrong about the context, but you are still missing what is being said. You are overlooking the point, overlooking the GRACE of God.

Take a gander here at what Peter is saying in this part of his epistle. Look at it, and now look at what Paul says over in Romans chapter 6.

-CryptoLutheran