First talk with Lutheran pastor - good & problematic

[Daniel9v9]

a similar thing happened to me when I was asking for advice via text messaging from my pastor while away at college many years ago; I noticed his response was angry and used curses to condemn me so I never went back to that church. it seems that among guys they think they can get away with it. even if I was wrong, you shouldn't be using that language.

Hey, sorry you had to experience that! That's certainly not pastoral.

 

[FireDragon76]

So I stopped at a local Lutheran church for the first time and talked to the pastor. Good, conservative guy - I liked him and we got along really well.

I like Lutheran teaching and answers on a lot of things, but the service has me put off to be honest. This one they do is like a Latin mass. Pastor has his back to the people at communion time, and he said the pastor is acting "in persona Christie" - a term I didn't like in Catholicism either.

At the Last Supper I don't think Jesus had his back to everyone while he broke bread - or ever when they broke bread for that matter. I have heard all the logic behind it, but it does not seem Scriptural, nor does it confer that sharing a meal togetherness.

And the "in persona Christie" thing - I am sure there are explanations. But if you support it, would you support that a Catholic priest is also "in persona Christie"?

The pastor or priest facing away from the people was actually common at one time, even in Lutheranism. It was the Reformed that introduced the innovation of standing facing the people, and this spread to other Christian denominations in the wake of Vatican II.

Before the Reformation, it was very rare for that to happen, most churches had what was called an "East facing" altar. It is an ancient practice, since the East was considered a sacred direction, as the sun rises from the east (analogous to the expectation of Christ's return). Early Christian churches were nothing more than houses, and would have had a large room with an altar where the Eucharist was offered as a sacrificial rite that was then distributed to the people gathered. It wasn't until some time later, when Christianity became a primarily gentile religion, that the synagogue service, or Synaxis, was integrated into the Eucharist.

 

[RileyG]

The pastor or priest facing away from the people was actually common at one time, even in Lutheranism. It was the Reformed that introduced the innovation of standing facing the people, and this spread to other Christian denominations in the wake of Vatican II.

Before the Reformation, it was very rare for that to happen, most churches had what was called an "East facing" altar. It is an ancient practice, since the East was considered a sacred direction, as the sun rises from the east (analogous to the expectation of Christ's return). Early Christian churches were nothing more than houses, and would have had a large room with an altar where the Eucharist was offered as a sacrificial rite that was then distributed to the people gathered. It wasn't until some time later, when Christianity became a primarily gentile religion, that the synagogue service, or Synaxis, was integrated into the Eucharist.

I wasn't aware of this.

Thanks for the information! I need to store that in my brain somewhere!

(not related: how on earth do you remember so much? lol)

 

[FireDragon76]

I wasn't aware of this.

Thanks for the information! I need to store that in my brain somewhere!

(not related: how on earth do you remember so much? lol)

I spent alot of time researching church history years ago, specifically early and medieval history.

 

[RileyG]

I spent alot of time researching church history years ago, specifically early and medieval history.

Sounds wonderful! I love learning about the early Church when I have the chance

God bless

 

[Markie Boy]

I think it's a case of something that became the norm. But if the Last Supper was how we are to celebrate communion - the leader having his back to the people is probably not what Jesus was doing.

We have to chalk that practice up to man made tradition - not given by God.

 

[FireDragon76]

I think it's a case of something that became the norm. But if the Last Supper was how we are to celebrate communion - the leader having his back to the people is probably not what Jesus was doing.

We have to chalk that practice up to man made tradition - not given by God.

If you ask biblical scholars that study the historical-critical approach, they aren't in full agreement that Jesus had a last supper, at least as it is present in Paul's writings and that we practice today. The Gospel of John makes no mention of the Lord's Supper institution narrative, only the Synoptic Gospels do so.

 

[Markie Boy]

Either way - how the Lord's Supper was shared in anything I have read, New Testament or Early Church writings - the idea of the leader standing up, facing away from everyone else, just does not fit the narratives.

It seems to be an invented tradition - with varying reasons (everyone face east, the the lead person leading the congregation, etc.). To me it looks like man's logic for doing something, rather than just doing as the Apostles did.

 

[JM]

Either way - how the Lord's Supper was shared in anything I have read, New Testament or Early Church writings - the idea of the leader standing up, facing away from everyone else, just does not fit the narratives.

It seems to be an invented tradition - with varying reasons (everyone face east, the the lead person leading the congregation, etc.). To me it looks like man's logic for doing something, rather than just doing as the Apostles did.

Facing East was inherented from Judaism who prayed toward the Temple and the Holy of Holies. Tertullian, Origen Clement, Basil, etc all write about this.

It is one of three earliest traditions.

Liturgical worship isn't something that comes out of thin air but expressions of love from God's people over time. Sure, bad traditions can creep in and do, so I guess you would need to explain how facing East is a bad tradition. How is the tradition of facing East affecting you and pricking your conscience? Why do you think it is bothering you?

Yours in the Lord,

jm

 

[FireDragon76]

Facing East was inherented from Judaism who prayed toward the Temple and the Holy of Holies. Tertullian, Origen Clement, Basil, etc all write about this.

It is one of three earliest traditions.

Liturgical worship isn't something that comes out of thin air but expressions of love from God's people over time. Sure, bad traditions can creep in and do, so I guess you would need to explain how facing East is a bad tradition. How is the tradition of facing East affecting you and pricking your conscience? Why do you think it is bothering you?

Yours in the Lord,

jm

Muslims also do something similar. The congregation in a mosque all faces the same direction to pray. It is a common pattern of prayer in all the religions of that area.

 

[Jacque_Pierre22]

Ezekiel 8:16 I'm pretty sure it originated from pagan religions and got into Christianity; the LXX uses 20 men which corresponds to Shamash the mesopotamian god's number

 

[FireDragon76]

Ezekiel 8:16 I'm pretty sure it originated from pagan religions and got into Christianity; the LXX uses 20 men which corresponds to Shamash the mesopotamian god's number

The notion that the Church absorbed pagan influences and corrupted it, isn't Lutheran. Lutherans aren't Baptists.

 

[Jacque_Pierre22]

The notion that the Church absorbed pagan influences and corrupted it, isn't Lutheran. Lutherans aren't Baptis

hmmmmm. Yea that's one of the things I don't like about Lutheranism-- they are too optimistic in their view of the Roman Catholic practices in history such as their synergistic eucharistic practices that Sasse wrote about. I see it more as by design as carryovers from ancient religions; but I'm not in agreement with Baptists on a lot of stuff.

 

[Markie Boy]

I don't have an issue with facing east - or any other direction. What it ended up in, is the leader (priest), with his back to the people, and a separation between clergy and layity.

It looks nothing like the communal - family meal of the Last Supper.

I my issue is with the creating something not found in Scripture, and then mandating it.

 

[JM]

I don't have an issue with facing east - or any other direction. What it ended up in, is the leader (priest), with his back to the people, and a separation between clergy and layity.

It looks nothing like the communal - family meal of the Last Supper.

I my issue is with the creating something not found in Scripture, and then mandating it.

I like how the Pastor turns his back to lead us, he is among us, and we are praying together. The other option is the Pastor facing the congregation like the Eucharistic is performance art or dinner and a show.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

I like how the Pastor turns his back to lead us, he is among us, and we are praying together. The other option is the Pastor facing the congregation like the Eucharistic is performance art or dinner and a show.

This is exactly what is going on. The Pastor faces us when he distributes the elements, as this is being done "in persona Christi".

 

[FireDragon76]

I like how the Pastor turns his back to lead us, he is among us, and we are praying together. The other option is the Pastor facing the congregation like the Eucharistic is performance art or dinner and a show.

There is an element of performance in all liturgy, of course.

Various rationales were given for the change in the altars, like "God is among us", that sort of thing.

Dom Gregory Dix was an Anglican liturgical scholar and he influenced alot of the post-Vatican II liturgical reforms. However, the liturgical reformers would find one example of a south-facing altar in an old church and use that as a pretext to make a south-facing altar normative. Of course, alot of what Dix did was positive as he helped move the emphasis of religion away from individuals to focus on the entire church, but other times it simply was used as a pretext to innovate and fix things that weren't really broken.

 

[Markie Boy]

This is exactly what is going on. The Pastor faces us when he distributes the elements, as this is being done "in persona Christi".

When I hear "in persona Christi" - that's exactly Roman Catholic. I am really not convinced it's either Biblical or historical

 

[FireDragon76]

When I hear "in persona Christi" - that's exactly Roman Catholic. I am really not convinced it's either Biblical or historical

It might surprise you to learn that some Lutherans have a very high view of the pastoral office. Lutherans also have a sacramental worldview: a pastor is called by God to the vocation to do God's work, even though it is done through human hands. So the notion that the pastor acts in persona Christi is understandable in light of that.

 

[JM]

When I hear "in persona Christi" - that's exactly Roman Catholic. I am really not convinced it's either Biblical or historical

I think you're being too Baptist. Revivalism and pietism are the bain of Christianity and Baptists, for the most part, embody it.