First talk with Lutheran pastor - good & problematic

Markie Boy

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So I stopped at a local Lutheran church for the first time and talked to the pastor. Good, conservative guy - I liked him and we got along really well.

I like Lutheran teaching and answers on a lot of things, but the service has me put off to be honest. This one they do is like a Latin mass. Pastor has his back to the people at communion time, and he said the pastor is acting "in persona Christie" - a term I didn't like in Catholicism either.

At the Last Supper I don't think Jesus had his back to everyone while he broke bread - or ever when they broke bread for that matter. I have heard all the logic behind it, but it does not seem Scriptural, nor does it confer that sharing a meal togetherness.

And the "in persona Christie" thing - I am sure there are explanations. But if you support it, would you support that a Catholic priest is also "in persona Christie"?
 

LizaMarie

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Those who are more knowledgeable than me hopefully will step in but one reason I went back to the Lutheran church of my upbringing and left non-denominational Christianity are because Lutherans still have the Divine Liturgy of the early church. Also the real presence in the Eucharist(IS means IS!!)
In fact, anyone who has followed my posts on these forums several years ago would know I was inquiring into Orthodoxy and the RCC for these
reasons although I am remaining Lutheran for now(doctrine of justification is the short answer, there are other reasons.)
I'm a high church person.
Hopefully someone like @ Daniel9v9 will step in and explain?
 
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Daniel9v9

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Hey, I'm glad to hear you had the opportunity to visit a Lutheran church. That's great!

There's a very simple answer to this, and I'd be glad to expand on it if it's helpful. The short explanation, however, is this:

The Pastor changing between facing the altar and facing the congregation, along with gestures, vestments, and the church interior are all adiaphora — This means things neither commanded nor forbidden by Scripture. So it's something practised in our freedom in Christ, to visually confess our faith. In other words, it's not necessary, but it can be good and useful if properly understood. We could perhaps compare it with having a cross on the roof of a church building — it's not necessary, but it confesses something to the world, and so it can be helpful.

The turning, specifically, signifies that when the Pastor is facing the congregation, he proclaims God's Law and Gospel to his hearers as a servant of the Word, but when he faces the altar, it's signified that he is also a fellow member of the Church, same as everyone else. So the intention is to visually communicate that when we offer up prayers and thanksgiving to God, we do that as a Church, but when God gives us His gifts of Word and Sacraments, it is from God, but through the Pastor, in the same way God proclaims the Gospel through His Church, that is, through whoever believes in Him. So it's meant to be a comforting symbol. It doesn't mean that Jesus' body is offered to God as an unbloody sacrifice, like some Levitical offering, but rather, that God simply gives us His good gifts. The Pastor doesn't have any special authority or power in and of himself, but he is called to preach God's Word and administer the Sacraments in accordance with the same Word.

Hopefully, I'm able to make some sense!

God's blessings to you!
 
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Markie Boy

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Makes enough sense that I am not totally spooked away, and will keep looking. Is using the "in persona Christi" phrase common in Lutheranism?

That is something I am very familiar with as it's how Catholicism teaches their priests are.
 
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Daniel9v9

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Makes enough sense that I am not totally spooked away, and will keep looking. Is using the "in persona Christi" phrase common in Lutheranism?

That is something I am very familiar with as it's how Catholicism teaches their priests are.

Yeah, this has to do with what is called the Office/Power of the Keys, which is different in the Roman and Lutheran systems. According to Roman Catholic dogma, the keys are given to the Pope, and from there flow out to the priesthood. According to Lutheran doctrine, however, the keys are given to the Church, which means all believers in Jesus. So, when it comes to the exercise of the keys, to forgive or not to forgive in Jesus' name, which is the command and responsibility to proclaim God's Law and Gospel, is given to all Christians. Yet, the Bible also does teach that there is a Pastoral Office, and that the exercise of those keys ought normally be exercised by those who have been trained to exercise them. But this is not due to a special right or worth of the Pastor, but rather, for the sake of good order, purity of doctrine, and people's consciences.

It's a bit of a complicated subject, really, as it touches on several things — the universal priesthood of all Christians, the Pastoral Office, church polity, and ecclesiastical order. But to keep things succinct, in the Lutheran system, our hope or confidence is not in the Pastor, but in God's promise which He in His mercy has attached to physical things for our benefit. That is, to give an example: Can we pray directly to God for forgiveness of sins? Absolutely! We are even taught, encouraged and commanded to do it in the Lord's Prayer. Can we seek God's forgiveness by confessing our sins to a Pastor or another Christian? Yes. Why? Because (1) God's Word teaches it, and (2) for the sake of our conscience, for He knows that we struggle with sin and are in need of forgiveness in an objective or tangible way, which consoles our troubled consciences. So God forgave us once and for all through the person and works of Jesus Christ, and He communicates this one and same forgiveness of sins in a variety of ways, showering us with His grace.

God bless!
 
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Markie Boy

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Well stated - and you always seem to be able to reason from Scripture. Thank you. I have been near giving up hope of finding a church home, but you are keeping me looking at Lutheranism.

Will probably have a few more questions for you along the way.....

God Bless!
 
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Daniel9v9

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Well stated - and you always seem to be able to reason from Scripture. Thank you. I have been near giving up hope of finding a church home, but you are keeping me looking at Lutheranism.

Will probably have a few more questions for you along the way.....

God Bless!

Hey, I'm glad to hear that and that's very kind and encouraging! I'm always happy to help however I can.

God's blessing to you in your studies!
 
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MarkRohfrietsch

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So I stopped at a local Lutheran church for the first time and talked to the pastor. Good, conservative guy - I liked him and we got along really well.

I like Lutheran teaching and answers on a lot of things, but the service has me put off to be honest. This one they do is like a Latin mass. Pastor has his back to the people at communion time, and he said the pastor is acting "in persona Christie" - a term I didn't like in Catholicism either.

At the Last Supper I don't think Jesus had his back to everyone while he broke bread - or ever when they broke bread for that matter. I have heard all the logic behind it, but it does not seem Scriptural, nor does it confer that sharing a meal togetherness.

And the "in persona Christie" thing - I am sure there are explanations. But if you support it, would you support that a Catholic priest is also "in persona Christie"?
Glad you posted here. I am going to try and unpack your questions a bit.

You will see both practices in Lutheran Churches. It does not mater where the Pastor stands, or if he is sitting at a bedside. Christ has given the command for the Church to preach the Gospel and administer the sacraments; and as Christ called the Apostles, the Church continues to call "Ministers" to "administer the sacraments" and preach the gospel.

The Pastor faces the altar, and yes consecration is like absolution in that it is done "in His stead and by His Command", but it is still Jesus Christ that forgives and consecrates.

When the Divine Service is celebrated ad orientem (facing East) the Pastor faces the altar with the Congregation; the Pastor is worshiping with us. The Altar is where Christ comes to us, in, with and under the bread and wine, He is truly physically and spiritually present. I would suggest getting the book by Arthur Just Heaven On Earth: The Gifts Of Christ In The Divine: Jus, Jr. Arthur A.: 9780758606716: Christianity: Amazon Canada, best book on the subject of the Eucharist ever.

The Pastor is a servant: The Pastor may wear a maniple on his left (mine does when he vests fully for high festivals such as Christmas, Easter, Pentecost etc. this is symbolic of his position of a servant. Think about a waiter in a fancy restaurant with a towel over his left arm. He serves us, just as Christ served the 12.

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Regarding your last part, yes, the Eucharist is valid and efficacious in the Catholic Church, the Orthodox Church, much if not all of the Anglican Church (I have some opinions on that but they would be off topic to this thread.

In many of the Churches in our Circuit, our Pastors chant the liturgy, and I have heard the statement "that's too Catholic". Not the case!!! That's very Lutheran!! The Common Service Divine Service Three, is a "cleaned up" translation of the Pre-Trent mass (Pre Reformation). In the original Latin mass, the words of institution were prayed silently. Luther instructed that they should be chanted clearly, and loudly so that all might hear the good news.

I hope this helps.

Mark
 
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Markie Boy

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Thanks Mark - I am still working on it, trying to process what I think God wants me to do and where to go.

And please take this as me thinking out loud - not arguing to be difficult.

If the Lord's Supper was started at the Last Supper, and we are commanded to "Do this in memory of Me" as he said - it seems like it was a family meal layout, much like the Passover meal would have been. Actually Jesus says He has longed to share that Passover meal with them.

The way most churches do communion doesn't feel much like a family meal at all. It seems the thing they do that's most like the early church is pot luck dinners. And it seems certain communion was done like in Scripture - as part of a meal - and then at some point it got separated out into it's own ritual.
 
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PsaltiChrysostom

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Thanks Mark - I am still working on it, trying to process what I think God wants me to do and where to go.

And please take this as me thinking out loud - not arguing to be difficult.

If the Lord's Supper was started at the Last Supper, and we are commanded to "Do this in memory of Me" as he said - it seems like it was a family meal layout, much like the Passover meal would have been. Actually Jesus says He has longed to share that Passover meal with them.

The way most churches do communion doesn't feel much like a family meal at all. It seems the thing they do that's most like the early church is pot luck dinners. And it seems certain communion was done like in Scripture - as part of a meal - and then at some point it got separated out into it's own ritual.
You are correct and the change came very early on. Even in Acts 20:7, On the first day of the week we came together to break bread. Paul spoke to the people and, because he intended to leave the next day, kept on talking until midnight.

So most likely, the "break bread" was Lord's Supper. Since everyone would be gathered, they probably were eating a communal meal while Paul spoke. The Jewish liturgy is very much like the first part of a Christian liturgy, with antiphonal readings of the Psalms, followed by a reading of the Torah, and then a short sermon. Christianity tacked the Eucharistic portion after these readings and sermon. So the communal meal when Jesus instituted the Supper, was unique to that Passover meal. So even in the Apostolic era, the Eucharist was sacred and not a part of a normal meal.

In the Didache, written last 1st century, stated:
Christian Assembly on the Lord's Day. But every Lord's day gather yourselves together, and break bread, and give thanksgiving after having confessed your transgressions, that your sacrifice may be pure. But let no one who is at odds with his fellow come together with you, until they be reconciled, that your sacrifice may not be profaned. For this is that which was spoken by the Lord: "In every place and time offer to me a pure sacrifice; for I am a great King, says the Lord, and my name is wonderful among the nations."​

Then Justin Martyr, wrote in the 150s the earliest description of the Christian liturgy.

And on the day called Sunday, all who live in cities or in the country gather together to one place, and the memoirs of the apostles or the writings of the prophets are read, as long as time permits; then, when the reader has ceased, the president verbally instructs, and exhorts to the imitation of these good things. Then we all rise together and pray, and, as we before said, when our prayer is ended, bread and wine and water are brought, and the president in like manner offers prayers and thanksgivings, according to his ability, and the people assent, saying Amen; and there is a distribution to each, and a participation of that over which thanks have been given, and to those who are absent a portion is sent by the deacons.​
In the Orthodox liturgy, the pieces of bread that are not used in communion itself are then distributed to everyone in attendance at the end of the service. These are called the antidoron or "instead of the gifts". It is a reflection of the actual meal of the Lord's Supper.
 
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Markie Boy

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OK - so this is one I have struggled with, and I love the Didache. "that your sacrifice may be pure." What is the sacrifice? Coming out of the RCC, they point to the sacrifice of the Mass - and I don't think it's the propitiatory sacrifice they say it is.

But what do you think?
 
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MarkRohfrietsch

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OK - so this is one I have struggled with, and I love the Didache. "that your sacrifice may be pure." What is the sacrifice? Coming out of the RCC, they point to the sacrifice of the Mass - and I don't think it's the propitiatory sacrifice they say it is.

But what do you think?
In Lutheran Theology, sacrificial acts are about what we do; sacramental are about what God does. Regarding the Eucharist, we celebrate, led by the Pastor, we pray, we examine our selves we confess; all of these are "sacrificial acts" done to serve God (Divine Service, Gottes Deinst) God forgives us through Absolution and the Eucharist; this is Sacramental. We as Christians celebrate the sacraments which is sacrificial; the forgiveness and healing we receive, from GOD is the sacramental part.
 
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Daniel9v9

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OK - so this is one I have struggled with, and I love the Didache. "that your sacrifice may be pure." What is the sacrifice? Coming out of the RCC, they point to the sacrifice of the Mass - and I don't think it's the propitiatory sacrifice they say it is.

But what do you think?

What @MarkRohfrietsch is good and right.

Perhaps I can add this — unfortunately, the Didache does not qualify what it means by "sacrifice", and there are competing theories about it. However, in my estimation, rather than reading into it doctrine that fits into a later Roman Catholic framework (for many reasons, one of which is that there is no concept of a papal office or even a threefold ecclesiastical order in the Didache), it's best understood in light of these Biblical passages:

Acts 2:42-1 — Here we see an excellent summary of early church worship, namely, devotion to apostolic doctrine (which is echoed in the Didache), fellowship (which implies a common confession of faith), the breaking of bread (the Eucharist), and the prayers (and in particular, the Lord's Prayer).

1 Corinthians 10:14-21 — This contrasts the Eucharist, the participation in Christ, with pagan sacrifice, the participation with demons.

1 Corinthians 5:7 — This explains what the sacrifice is: Christ, the Lamb of God, sacrificed once and for all, which God has done for us and communicates to us in the Eucharist according to His own power and promise.

Hebrews 13:15-16 — This talks about the kind of sacrifices we, the Church (whoever believes in Jesus), offer, which is not an unbloody sacrifice of Christ, but rather, praise and thanksgiving (cf. Psalm 50:23).

The excellent Rev. Dr. Kleinig offers some great insight here when he makes a distinction between praise and thanksgiving in this way: When we praise God, we make known God's good work of salvation to others. For just as when we praise people for what good things they've done, we don't typically praise them to their face, but we make their deeds known to others. This is exactly what Hebrews qualifies as a sacrifice of praise to God: "The fruit of lips that acknowledge His name." Thanksgiving, however, is directed to God, and these two things go together. So, in Christ, we give thanks to God for His creation, salvation, and for sustaining us, and all good gifts, and we proclaim the same to the world. This is something we see very clearly throughout the Psalms. For example:

"Oh give thanks to the LORD; call upon His name;
make known His deeds among the peoples!
Sing to Him, sing praises to Him;
tell of all His wondrous works!"

In this, we see that (1) salvation is entirely from God, and (2) that we give thanks to God by (a) giving our thanks to Him in prayer and (b) by proclaiming to the world His wondrous works of creation, salvation, and sustaining us.

So, the point the Didache is making is that we should confess our sins, both to God and to each other, as we see in the Lord's Prayer when we pray to God that He may "forgive us our sins as we forgive those who sin against us". In this way, we may come together as repentant sinners, united in the Lord, receiving His gift of Christ's body and blood and responding by offering up thanksgiving and praise.

It's good to note that the Didache uses the word "Eucharist" for the Lord's Supper, which is very appropriate and insightful, for "Eucharist" means "thanksgiving". And according to 1 Corinthians 11:26, by the same Eucharist, we proclaim the Lord's death. So, again, salvation from God, thanksgiving and praise from us. So, when we speak of the sacrifice, we can talk about it in terms of God's sacrifice for us, or our sacrifice of thanksgiving and praise to God.

God bless!
 
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Markie Boy

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Thanks Mark and Daniel! Mark I have to say, how you described this:

Sacrificial acts are what we do, Sacraments are what God does. That simple line makes more sense of the idea of sacraments than I have heard from the Catholic Church in a decade.

I have been bordering on just rejecting the whole idea of sacraments honestly - largely due to the RCC teachings.

Now - the $64,000 question - How 'Early Church" are sacraments, if I look back in history, or are they a development? And how many sacraments are there in Lutheranism?
 
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MarkRohfrietsch

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Thanks Mark and Daniel! Mark I have to say, how you described this:

Sacrificial acts are what we do, Sacraments are what God does. That simple line makes more sense of the idea of sacraments than I have heard from the Catholic Church in a decade.

I have been bordering on just rejecting the whole idea of sacraments honestly - largely due to the RCC teachings.

Now - the $64,000 question - How 'Early Church" are sacraments, if I look back in history, or are they a development? And how many sacraments are there in Lutheranism?
Well, it all depends on how one defines "Sacrament"; Small Catechism would say "two": Baptism and the Lord's Supper; the Augsburg Confession would say "three", by including Confession and Absolution. Some Theologians would say "four" adding "Holy Orders" for some seemingly good reasons.

Bottom line is the CC, EO, and some Anglicans would say 7. The remaining 5, 4, 3 should still be considered "sacramental acts" or "sacramentals" even if not rigidly defined as actual "sacraments" because they are about what God does for us and for His Church; our participation in the Sacraments and sacramentals remain sacrificial acts.

Regarding the Early Church, I am no expert, but I do know that some Orthodox simply call them "mysteries".

We don't need to quantify things we don't quite understand, it is enough to just have faith, accept them and rejoice in their benefit to us.

Mark
 
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Daniel9v9

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Thanks Mark and Daniel! Mark I have to say, how you described this:

Sacrificial acts are what we do, Sacraments are what God does. That simple line makes more sense of the idea of sacraments than I have heard from the Catholic Church in a decade.

I have been bordering on just rejecting the whole idea of sacraments honestly - largely due to the RCC teachings.

Now - the $64,000 question - How 'Early Church" are sacraments, if I look back in history, or are they a development? And how many sacraments are there in Lutheranism?

Well, if I may, since you're interested in the Didache, I can point out that the Didache only knows of two Sacraments: Holy Baptism and the Eucharist, same as the Lutheran Church (along with several other church bodies). Though as rightly mentioned above, we could also view Absolution as a kind of Sacrament; all three were instituted by Christ and have to do with the free gift of God's forgiveness of sins won for us by Jesus.

The early church fathers spoke somewhat freely/loosely and there are many areas where they may contradict one another. However, when it comes to Baptism and the Eucharist, they are overwhelmingly consistent. This was a real shock to me being raised Pentecostal and having a memorial understanding of the Eucharist. You could only make a reasonable case for more Sacraments if you assume a belief in Holy Tradition, as opposed to holding that God's Word governs tradition. But, again, it depends on what we qualify as "Sacrament". I think if we restrict our thinking to the gifts that Christ in His earthly ministry instituted for the observance and benefit of the Church, and what the early church believed and taught about, then we have Baptism and the Eucharist.
 
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Markie Boy

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Two sacraments - Baptism and Eucharist are much easier to grasp than the 7 of the RCC. And seeing that in the Didache really makes sense.

I find the RCC has a lot of truth in it. In some places it's been twisted to fit a narrative, but more often they have just added so much stuff you can't tell what's true and what's filler, without a lot of research.

I get why many groups have chucked everything, and tried to build from Scripture alone, rather than trying to sort thru Rome's massive amount of stuff.

So you guys are presenting good answers. I live in a small town and we have three Lutheran churches:

LCMS - aged congregation, few youth, can't seem to get a regular pastor so the retired guys are filling in - fairly conservative it seems. But I met one of the guys that helps with the service, and he dropped an "F" bomb in our conversation - not impressive.

NALC - but they went against the synod and hired a very conservative pastor. I like him, he's the one I met with. Congregation here is really aged and shrinking.

WELLS - don't know anyone that goes there.

It seems the Baptists and Non-Denominational are the only ones with any youth and able to get younger pastors. It's hard to take your kids to a church with no other kids. Any thoughts?
 
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Two sacraments - Baptism and Eucharist are much easier to grasp than the 7 of the RCC. And seeing that in the Didache really makes sense.

I find the RCC has a lot of truth in it. In some places it's been twisted to fit a narrative, but more often they have just added so much stuff you can't tell what's true and what's filler, without a lot of research.

I get why many groups have chucked everything, and tried to build from Scripture alone, rather than trying to sort thru Rome's massive amount of stuff.

So you guys are presenting good answers. I live in a small town and we have three Lutheran churches:

LCMS - aged congregation, few youth, can't seem to get a regular pastor so the retired guys are filling in - fairly conservative it seems. But I met one of the guys that helps with the service, and he dropped an "F" bomb in our conversation - not impressive.

NALC - but they went against the synod and hired a very conservative pastor. I like him, he's the one I met with. Congregation here is really aged and shrinking.

WELLS - don't know anyone that goes there.

It seems the Baptists and Non-Denominational are the only ones with any youth and able to get younger pastors. It's hard to take your kids to a church with no other kids. Any thoughts?
You can always start a trend.
 
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