First talk with Lutheran pastor - good & problematic

[Markie Boy]

I'm not overly fond of Baptist theology. I'm not a dispensationalist, nor do I agree with OSAS. It just "in persona Christi" isn't what I see, and it's also described as Alter Christus, which I'm really not a fan of.

I like church history, and just want to stay true to Biblical and historical Christianity. I know some great Baptists, and they have zeal, share the faith, and get in the trenches to help people more than the local liturgical churches here. They are not the bain of Christianity.

 

[FireDragon76]

I'm not overly fond of Baptist theology. I'm not a dispensationalist, nor do I agree with OSAS. It just "in persona Christi" isn't what I see, and it's also described as Alter Christus, which I'm really not a fan of.

I like church history, and just want to stay true to Biblical and historical Christianity. I know some great Baptists, and they have zeal, share the faith, and get in the trenches to help people more than the local liturgical churches here. They are not the bain of Christianity.

Acting in persona Christi is a Christian's vocation in general. The Church, collectively, not just individually, is a continuation of Christ's ministry of forgiveness and reconciliation until the end of the world. However, for the purposes of good order, we have certain liturgical and sacramental roles that should only be filled by people that are called to that ministry.

 

[Markie Boy]

Coming from a Catholic background - in persona Christi means in the place of Christ - and is synonymous with the term Alter Christus - meaning "another Christ". I just don't see it in Scripture.

We are to be "Christ like", but none of us are "another Christ" - there is only one.

 

[JM]

There is an element of performance in all liturgy, of course.

Various rationales were given for the change in the altars, like "God is among us", that sort of thing.

Dom Gregory Dix was an Anglican liturgical scholar and he influenced alot of the post-Vatican II liturgical reforms. However, the liturgical reformers would find one example of a south-facing altar in an old church and use that as a pretext to make a south-facing altar normative. Of course, alot of what Dix did was positive as he helped move the emphasis of religion away from individuals to focus on the entire church, but other times it simply was used as a pretext to innovate and fix things that weren't really broken.

I don't know if performance is the correct word for a ceremonial rite.

 

[FireDragon76]

I don't know if performance is the correct word for a ceremonial rite.

The term now days is connected with low-brow entertainment, so maybe that could be confusing. That was not my intention. I meant in the sense of personal involvement. All good theater, going back to the ancient Greeks, draws us into a story, takes us to different places and times, and puts us in other perspectives. It is almost sacramental, in that sense, which is one reason theater was so important in ancient Greek culture.

That's the difference between the notion of the Christian religion as liturgy vs. the Christian religion as a pep talk, sales pitch, and some inspirational music. Low church folks derisively call it "smells and bells", but liturgical worship is actually about the enactment of the otherworldly, and the recreation of suspended and liminal spaces.

 

[Markie Boy]

I have seen "low church" services that are like rock performances and comedy acts - and I think it's simply wrong.

But I have seen "low church" services that are simply less formal, yet spirit led, and genuine, and respectful. They are some of the most spirit filled ones I have been to.

Not to be negative - but all the high liturgical ones i have been to - Catholic, Latin Catholic, and Lutheran - don't seem to have a congregation that's engaged, and almost never friendly.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

The term now days is connected with low-brow entertainment, so maybe that could be confusing. That was not my intention. I meant in the sense of personal involvement. All good theater, going back to the ancient Greeks, draws us into a story, takes us to different places and times, and puts us in other perspectives. It is almost sacramental, in that sense, which is one reason theater was so important in ancient Greek culture.

That's the difference between the notion of the Christian religion as liturgy vs. the Christian religion as a pep talk, sales pitch, and some inspirational music. Low church folks derisively call it "smells and bells", but liturgical worship is actually about the enactment of the otherworldly, and the recreation of suspended and liminal spaces.

I had a Pastor who explained it this way; Liturgy is a Drama that depicts the whole of God's plan leading us from creation right through to the new perfect world following the final judgement. In the Liturgy of the hours the first service of the day, Matins meditates on Creation:

Through to Complin where we celebrate the fulfillment of Gods word while we contemplate our sinful nature, our physical death, and our peaceful reward.

In the Eucharist (Mass) we see, but also experience the fulfillment of God's plan; Heaven and Earthy come together, transcending time and space, on the Altar where we join the the heavenly feast with all those in Heaven.

 

[FireDragon76]

Not to be negative - but all the high liturgical ones i have been to - Catholic, Latin Catholic, and Lutheran - don't seem to have a congregation that's engaged, and almost never friendly.

The current church I attend is more on the low side, but they still have liturgy. It's just not as elaborate.

How could you tell, just by looking at the people attending, whether or not people are engaged? Engagement is something personal.

 

[JM]

I have seen "low church" services that are like rock performances and comedy acts - and I think it's simply wrong.

But I have seen "low church" services that are simply less formal, yet spirit led, and genuine, and respectful. They are some of the most spirit filled ones I have been to.

Not to be negative - but all the high liturgical ones i have been to - Catholic, Latin Catholic, and Lutheran - don't seem to have a congregation that's engaged, and almost never friendly.

It should be about conviction, what you believe, not that what you have access to is imperfect.

Do believe, teach and confess the Augsburg Confession? I'm almost there. It takes time.