Adventists affirm Mark 1:15 regarding Dan 9 and the 70 weeks prophecy and pre-advent Investigative Judgment of Dan 7

[BobRyan]

Bob, you made this thread on multiple topics from the beginning

from the beginning it was Mark 1:15 and the 70 weeks (490 years ) of Dan 9.

View attachment 334806

You may have later regretted that.

The fact that I did not view Dan 9 as part of the Eschaton - is not going to switch this thread away from Mark 1:15 and Dan 9. I think we probably both know that.

I have promoted other threads one for Dan 7 and one for Dan 8 so we can keep to this thread's focus on Mark 1:15 and Dan 9

 

[BobRyan]

BobRyan said:
There is no "judgment on beasts" statement in Dan 7 regarding that court room

Tall73 said:
Sure there is. The four beasts, and the little horn from the fourth beast are judged.

Sure there is. The four beasts, and the little horn from the fourth beast

Dan 7:21-22 does not say that the wicked oppress the saints "until judgment is passed against the wicked".

As we all know.

You keep trying to get that idea inserted into Dan 7:21-22 and keep getting defeated by the details.

The dominion of the other beasts is taken away:

The death of the wicked only takes place once judgment is passed in favor of the saints. And we see how that process works in Rom 2:4-16...
All the while that is going on (according to Dan 7) the saints are being tormented by the wicked. Another detail that keeps ending your suggestions so far.

tall73 said:
Bob, the action is to slay the little horn, and the fourth beast, and to strip the authority of the other beasts

Judgment is given in favor of the saints. There is nothing said about the details of each saint.

until you read vs 9-10 where they are being judged out of the details recorded into the books of record.

Rev 20 describes this concept of "judgment out of books of record" -- this way

Rev 20:21 "... and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds."

And so it is in the Dan 7 example of the same thing "the court sat, the books were opened... until judgment was passed in favor of the saints"

1. as we see in 2 Cor 5:10 EACH one judge based on "deeds done in the body whether good or bad".
2. As we see in Rom 2:4-16 failing cases compared to succeeding cases - according to deed "DOERS" Rom 2:13
3. As we see in Matt 7 - "not everyone who SAYS Lord Lord - but he who DOES"

Your idea of "judgment passed in favor of the saints ... out of the books of record" without a single detail about any saint being considered -- is total nonsense.

So you admit that action is taken against the wicked at the end of the judgment. Yes, that is the point.

As stated repeatedly by me. The wicked are not killed until judgment is passed in favor of the saints based on the books of record opened and reveiewed.

The judgment in favor of the saints is given by the same court that finds against the fourth beast

Nothing in Dan 7 says "The court finds against the beast" -- and we both know it.

God is judging between the two and delivers His people:

not true.

Nothing in Dan 7 says the court is trying to decide if the wicked that persecute the saints - are "good or not". Nothing in the text shows any doubt at all about the wicked. Just as we see in Job 1 and Job 2.

This just is not that hard.

Daniel 7:25 He shall speak pompous words against the Most High,
Shall persecute the saints of the Most High,
And shall intend to change times and law.
Then the saints shall be given into his hand
For a time and times and half a time.
26 ‘But the court shall be seated,
And they shall take away his dominion,
To consume and destroy it forever.

After judgment passes in favor of the saint - then the wicked can be destroyed. Not because wickedness looks pretty good until then.. but because the whole issue is in regard to the saints - as we see in Job 1 and 2.

The judgment for the saints is a judgment against the little horn

False.

This is not a case where the wicked nations are bringing a case against the saints in the courts of heaven

There is no description of individual judgment.

in every case judgment out of books of record are always looking at the details of what individuals have done.

As we see in Rev 20 - judgment out of books.
As we see in all cases of judgment -- including Job 1 and Job 2.
Including 2 Cor 5:10
Including Rom 2:4-16

Judgment that is passed in favor of the saints happens BEFORE the Advent of Christ according to Dan 7 and WHILE the wicked are tormenting the saints. Nothing there about the court being a bit confused as to whether the wicked are the "bad guys" -- nothing.

 

[tall73]

While Bob indicated we could not see the Liturgist's points without him quoting the text, I will demonstrate that is not the case.

Here is the first statement the Liturgist made on Daniel 7.

I have read Daniel 7 and I have read absolutely nothing that corresponds with the doctrine of the Investigative Judgement as expounded by EGW. Rather what it describes is the Eschaton, when after the last trumpet, all shall be raised, when Christ Pantocrator will assume the dread judgement seat of God and the Book of Life will be opened, with the saved going to the World to Come and the reprobate being damned to the outer darkness for all eternity. And this is not a controversial statement. You seem to be using basically the same text all Christians understand as the basis for the Last Judgement as traditionally defined and claiming that it uniquely and specifically tallies with the unique interpretation of the Investigative Judgement as presented by Ellen G. White, which the majority of Christians including myself disagree with.

Clearly the Liturgist relates the judgment scene to that time after the second coming when God Christ will judge.


Bob then stated:

Where we find the court room in heaven vs 9-11, judgement vs 22, the court sits and the books are opened vs 9-10 and judgment is eventually passed "in favor of the saints" vs 22...

and The Liturgist responded:

No, you have it wrong. You are interpreting literally not only those verses of prophecy meant to be interpreted as typological prophecy of the eschaton, which are in the interpretation of Nebuchadnezzar’s dream, but also Nebuchadenzzar’s dream itself, which makes no sense in the context of the text, because even if we were to accept that the interpretation of the dream by the Holy Prophet Daniel was to be taken in a literal rather than symbolic context... still recognize that the dream itself of Nebuchadnezzar cannot be interpreted literally, because the Holy Prophet Daniel provides an interpretation of it which proves that it is symbolic.

So if the basis for the doctrine of the Investigative Judgement is an admixture of verses from within the interpreted dream and verses from its interpretation, all taken literally, such an interpretation directly contradicts the text itself by virtue of being out of context......


I do not ignore it - I accept it as important prophecy, but I reject outright your interpretation of it because you conflate the contents of Nebuchadnezzar’s dream with St. Daniel’s interpretation of it.

The Liturgist then indicates that the dream is not literal, but figurative, and therefore required interpretation by Daniel.

He also seems to have indicated that a literal hermeneutic is not the only approach and favors the Alexandrian over the Antiochan school, but we can save that for another time.

To summarize, he seems to focus more on the interpretation than the specifics of the vision. Hence he sees the judgment as taking place after Jesus' coming, and being the judgment on the righteous and the wicked.

Likely these sections are in mind:


21 “I was watching; and the same horn was making war against the saints, and prevailing against them, 22 until the Ancient of Days came, and a judgment was made in favor of the saints of the Most High, and the time came for the saints to possess the kingdom.


He appears to interpret "The Ancient of Days came" to indicate the coming of the Lord, at which point the judgment ensues.

Notice also that this statement extends to the time when the saints possess the kingdom. So it would extend beyond the judgment of the righteous, etc to the time of the removal of all things that defile from the kingdom.

Now while I had been looking at aspects of the vision that indicate possible coinciding of the courtroom judgment with the trampling of the beast and persecution of the saints, he makes an interesting point that the explanation seems not to do so.

The persecution of the beast stops when the judgment comes.

And we see the same later in the chapter:

25
He shall speak pompous words against the Most High,
Shall persecute[j] the saints of the Most High,
And shall intend to change times and law.
Then the saints shall be given into his hand
For a time and times and half a time.

26
‘But the court shall be seated,
And they shall take away his dominion,
To consume and destroy it forever.
27
Then the kingdom and dominion,
And the greatness of the kingdoms under the whole heaven,
Shall be given to the people, the saints of the Most High.
His kingdom is an everlasting kingdom,
And all dominions shall serve and obey Him.’


In support of the view of The Liturgist I would put forward some other possibly related texts:

The coming of the Son of Man is said to be with the clouds of heaven.

“I was watching in the night visions,
And behold, One like the Son of Man,
Coming with the clouds of heaven!"

Adventists interpret this as happening in the Most Holy Place of the heavenly sanctuary.

However, the statement of Jesus to the high priest at his trial appears to reference this moment:

Matthew 26:62 And the high priest arose and said to Him, “Do You answer nothing? What is it these men testify against You?” 63 But Jesus kept silent. And the high priest answered and said to Him, “I put You under oath by the living God: Tell us if You are the Christ, the Son of God!” 64 Jesus said to him, “It is as you said. Nevertheless, I say to you, hereafter you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven.”


The high priest would not be in the most holy place of heaven, but will be there to see Jesus in His glory, coming with the clouds of heaven, and sitting at the Right Hand of Power:

Revelation 1:7 Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. Even so, Amen.

These texts then may indicate that the coming of Jesus with the clouds is a reference to the second coming, and to the judging of the living and dead before the throne.


Moreover, in Jude we see the following:

Jude 14 Now Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about these men also, saying, “Behold, the Lord comes with ten thousands of His holy ones, 15 to execute judgment on all, to convict all who are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have committed in an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him.”


The language of the Lord coming with ten thousands of His holy ones to execute judgment also hearkens back to Daniel 7:


Daniel 7:10 A fiery stream issued
And came forth from before Him.
A thousand thousands ministered to Him;
Ten thousand times ten thousand stood before Him.
The court was seated,
And the books were opened.

The statement by Enoch, quoted by Jude has apparent reference to the judging of "all", including the "ungodly". This would not describe the Adventist IJ which was not on "all" but only on the professed followers of God. But it would describe the judgment before God's throne where all are judged.


The main difference with my view is that he de-emphasizes the vision, and emphasizes the explanation. And I can see some sense to that. The advantage of his view is it ties to the texts above.

But either way we both agree that the judgment of individuals is described in plain texts, and happens in person, before the judgment seat of Christ.


1Corinthians 4:5 Therefore do not pronounce judgment before the time, before the Lord comes, who will bring to light the things now hidden in darkness and will disclose the purposes of the heart. Then each one will receive his commendation from God.

Romans 14 10b For we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. 11 For it is written: “As I live, says the Lord, Every knee shall bow to Me, And every tongue shall confess to God.” 12 So then each of us shall give account of himself to God.

2 Corinthians 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.

Matthew 25:31 “When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. 33 And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. 34 Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 35 for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in; 36 I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.’ 37 “Then the righteous will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You drink? 38 When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You? 39 Or when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’ 40 And the King will answer and say to them, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.’ 41 “Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: 42 for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; 43 I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.’44 “Then they also will answer [d]Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?’ 45 Then He will answer them, saying, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ 46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

When the Lord returns He will examine His servants. They are judged before Him.

Matthew 7:21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

 

[tall73]

from the beginning it was Mark 1:15 and the 70 weeks (490 years ) of Dan 9.

No, you expressly included the 2300 days, etc. And that is why people took issue with it early in the thread.

The fact that I did not view Dan 9 as part of the Eschaton - is not going to switch this thread away from Mark 1:15 and Dan 9. I think we probably both know that.

I was referencing your statement to the Liturgist pointing to Daniel 7 for evidence of an IJ. You opened that discussion in this thread.

I have promoted other threads one for Dan 7 and one for Dan 8 so we can keep to this thread's focus on Mark 1:15 and Dan 9

You after the fact started other threads, but the conversation was already initiated here by you, and has continued.

 

[BobRyan]

While Bob indicated we could not see the Liturgist's points without him quoting the text, I will demonstrate that is not the case.

Now for the facts you are not posting in that regard.

I said that his false accusation about "taking text out of context" CAN'T be supported by simply ignoring the text, ignoring any actual quote of anything in the chapter that the false accusation is talking about.

And we both know it.

Here is the first statement the Liturgist made on Daniel 7.
Clearly the Liturgist relates the judgment scene to that time after the second coming when God Christ will judge.

He has his view - but he does not show any statement that I made as being out of context - he points to no actual fact in the chapter - no quote at all of it -- rather he just makes the accusation.

I don't see how this is even a little bit confusing.

The Liturgist then indicates that...

..

He also seems to have indicated that ....

"he also seems to have indicated..."???

You can't be serious. This is how you support accusations??

This is hard to believe.

To summarize, he seems to focus more on the interpretation ...

Likely these sections are in mind:...

Apparently even you feel the need to point to an actual verse - and actual detail -- for him.

He appears to interpret ...

In support of the view of The Liturgist I would put forward some other possibly related texts:

The coming of the Son of Man is said to be with the clouds of heaven.

“I was watching in the night visions,
And behold, One like the Son of Man,
Coming with the clouds of heaven!"

hmm - you "quoted something" in your post defending the practice of quoting nothing at all - to support the accusation that someone has taken something out of context.

That's a bit self-conflicted on your part -- don't you think? You are proving my point.

You agree with me then - that you have to actually quote something to sustain such an accusation??

Your post was incredibly revealing about what was lacking...

 

[tall73]

Nothing in Dan 7 says "The court finds against the beast"

Bob, if you go to court and the court kills you, they did not find in your favor.

You keep spinning it but the removing of the dominion of the beast is said to be an action of the court:

‘But the court shall be seated,
And they shall take away his dominion,
To consume and destroy it forever.

11 “I watched then because of the sound of the pompous words which the horn was speaking; I watched till the beast was slain, and its body destroyed and given to the burning flame. 12 As for the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away, yet their lives were prolonged for a season and a time.

 

[BobRyan]

Bob, if you go to court and the court kills you, they did not find in your favor.

nothing in the text says the the wicked nations went to court.

The only issue in the court is related to saints - as we see in Dan 7:22 - and Job 1 and 2.

The idea that the courts of heaven don't know that wicked nations are 'wicked' -- is your own idea.

You keep spinning it but the removing of the dominion of the beast is said to be an action of the court:

at the END of judging the saints - only THEN does the axe fall on the wicked. NOT because the wicked look so good - but because the issues regarding the saints need to be resolved.

As stated repeatedly on this thread.

 

[BobRyan]

No, you expressly included the 2300 days, etc. And that is why people took issue with it early in the thread.

Now for actual facts.. even you were able to stay on the Mark 1:15, Dan 9 topic of this thread for the first 28 posts.

 

[tall73]

Now for the facts you are not posting in that regard.

I said that his false accusation about "taking text out of context" CAN'T be supported by simply ignoring the text, ignoring any actual quote of anything in the chapter that the false accusation is talking about.

And we both know it.

Except we can. And if you had let him continue to explain the verses by reference to verse number, he could have explained further.

.

"he also seems to have indicated..."???

This is how I have to infer when you ran him out of the conversation because you were not willing to let him use a method that didn't violate his convictions.

But I found his comments helpful in distinguishing between vision and explanation.

Apparently even you feel the need to point to an actual verse - and actual detail -- for him.

I don't have his personal conviction. He could have explained it by reference to verse number as he suggested.

hmm - you "quoted something" in your post defending the practice of quoting nothing at all

I quoted in defending his views, which he was trying to express within the constraints of his convictions. You just downplayed his convictions and asked him to quote again.

Now Bob, it is also pretty clear you have not addressed a number of plain quotes from the text posted again and again.

You only addressed the first sentence clause of this, but ignored the rest.

1Corinthians 4:5 Therefore do not pronounce judgment before the time, before the Lord comes, who will bring to light the things now hidden in darkness and will disclose the purposes of the heart. Then each one will receive his commendation from God.

Judgment is when the Lord comes, who will bring to light the things now hidden, and disclose the purposes of the heart. AND at that time each receives commendation.

Romans 14 10b For we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. 11 For it is written: “As I live, says the Lord, Every knee shall bow to Me, And every tongue shall confess to God.” 12 So then each of us shall give account of himself to God.

We will stand before the judgment seat, not be absent as in the Adventist IJ. We kneel, bow, confess, and give an account, which cannot happen in the IJ, because per Ellen White we won't even know when our case comes up or when the whole judgment is finished until it is too late.

2 Corinthians 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.

WE appear before the judgment seat of Christ, and not just in spirit, because we RECEIVE according to what we have done.

Matthew 25:31 “When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. 33 And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. 34 Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 35 for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in; 36 I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.’ 37 “Then the righteous will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You drink? 38 When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You? 39 Or when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’ 40 And the King will answer and say to them, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.’ 41 “Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: 42 for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; 43 I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.’44 “Then they also will answer [d]Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?’ 45 Then He will answer them, saying, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ 46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

Here all are brought before His throne, some object, but He points to their record. This is a direct reference to the throne of judgment, and it is in person, not like the Adventist IJ.

Matthew 25:14 “For the kingdom of heaven is like a man traveling to a far country, who called his own servants and delivered his goods to them. 15 And to one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one, to each according to his own ability; and immediately he went on a journey. 16 Then he who had received the five talents went and traded with them, and made another five talents. 17 And likewise he who had received two gained two more also. 18 But he who had received one went and dug in the ground, and hid his lord’s money. 19 After a long time the lord of those servants came and settled accounts with them.
20 “So he who had received five talents came and brought five other talents, saying, ‘Lord, you delivered to me five talents; look, I have gained five more talents besides them.’ 21 His lord said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant; you were faithful over a few things, I will make you ruler over many things. Enter into the joy of your lord.’ 22 He also who had received two talents came and said, ‘Lord, you delivered to me two talents; look, I have gained two more talents besides them.’ 23 His lord said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant; you have been faithful over a few things, I will make you ruler over many things. Enter into the joy of your lord.’
24 “Then he who had received the one talent came and said, ‘Lord, I knew you to be a hard man, reaping where you have not sown, and gathering where you have not scattered seed. 25 And I was afraid, and went and hid your talent in the ground. Look, there you have what is yours.’ 26 “But his lord answered and said to him, ‘You wicked and lazy servant, you knew that I reap where I have not sown, and gather where I have not scattered seed. 27 So you ought to have deposited my money with the bankers, and at my coming I would have received back my own with interest. 28 So take the talent from him, and give it to him who has ten talents.

When the Lord returns He will examine His servants. They are judged before Him.

Matthew 7:21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

Here you say this answers to the Adventist IJ, but it does not. In the Adventist IJ you wouldn't even know your name was coming up. But here they list what they have done in His name, give an account, and He responds.

 

[tall73]

nothing in the text says the the wicked nations went to court.

Bob, the court came to them, because God intervenes on behalf of the oppressed, as I quoted earlier from Psalm 9.


‘But the court shall be seated,
And they shall take away his dominion,
To consume and destroy it forever.

The court did it Bob. That was part of the judgment of the court.

The only issue in the court is related to saints -

‘But the court shall be seated,
And they shall take away his dominion,
To consume and destroy it forever.

No Bob, the court took away his dominion. You said to quote the text. And I quoted it.

The idea that the courts of heaven don't know that wicked nations are 'wicked' -- is your own idea.

The idea that God doesn't intervene on behalf of His people and judge the wicked is yours.


‘But the court shall be seated,
And they shall take away his dominion,
To consume and destroy it forever.

The court did that. It was part of the judgment.

 

[BobRyan]

You keep spinning it but the removing of the dominion of the beast is said to be an action of the court:

Sadly you are not being accurate ... again.

I page after page I say that the axe falls on the wicked at the Advent of Christ... it is also called "dominion taken away"

But the text says the court is dealing with the saints so no "judgment passed against the wicked nations" in the entire chapter ... as much as you seem to have needed it.

rather "judgment passed in favor of the saints".

BTW the ONLY other option would be "judgment passed against all inhabitants of earth".

There never was a possible "judgment passed in favor of the wicked" option under consideration - as we both know.

11 “I watched then because of the sound of the pompous words which the horn was speaking; I watched till the beast was slain,

No doubt Daniel was amazed at how much wickedness the wicked were allowed to do -- but never does he express confusion as to whether being wicked was a "good thing or a bad thing" such that some court would have to figure that tough one out.

I don't see how this is even a little bit confusing

 

[BobRyan]

BobRyan said:

Now for the facts you are not posting in that regard.

I said that his false accusation about "taking text out of context" CAN'T be supported by simply ignoring the text, ignoring any actual quote of anything in the chapter that the false accusation is talking about.

And we both know it.

Except we can.

"we"??
You would like to argue in favor of factless accusations where you accuse someone of taking a text out of context and then support your accusation by ignoring the chapter.. quoting nothing... not even pointing to an error in rendering the text?

That is a new one.

And if you had let him continue to explain the verses by reference to verse number, he could have explained further.

He said it was his conviction not to do that because quote of any verse in the text would be a "bad thing" unless that verse was a part of liturgy for his denomination.

This is how I have to infer when you ran him out

There was no "run him out" in my posts. Rather it was to invite him to "make a case" from the actual text.

I would say "and we both know it" but at this point you are surprising me with some of the methods you appear to be endorsing as of late.

of the conversation because you were not willing to let him use a method that didn't violate his convictions.

What "method" refers to NO details in the text to make its case for "you took that out of context??

BTW - I don't control your keyboard or his keyboard. If I could stop you from circling back to some of the same failed points over and over I am not sure I would do it - since I think it is "instructive" for the unbiased objective readers to see that your argument is stuck at that point.

I don't have his personal conviction. He could have explained it by reference to verse number as he suggested.

He could have tried to find a fact in the chapter in favor of his accusation that I took something in the text out of context -- if he had one.

No one stops someone from posting something in favor of their POV,,, nor even in favor of their accusation against another person - as he was doing.

 

[BobRyan]

The idea that God doesn't intervene on behalf of His people and judge the wicked is yours.

There is an example of making stuff up - that is pretty rare.

‘But the court shall be seated,
And they shall take away his dominion,
To consume and destroy it forever.

As I keep saying God destroys the wicked at the Advent in in vs 27

This just isn't that hard.

But in vs 22 "judgment is passed in favor of the saints" and only THEN is action taken against the wicked nations.

I could post this 20 more times if you like - but it seem to have lost its point.

The judgment is never stated to be "is the court able to terminate the wicked" -- this is not the issue in debate/research --

Rather as Job 1 and Job 2, and 2 Cor 5:10 and Dan 7:22 point out - the issue is the saints.

 

[BobRyan]

Likely these sections are in mind:...

Apparently even you feel the need to point to an actual verse - and actual detail -- for him

In support of the view of The Liturgist I would put forward some other possibly related texts:

The coming of the Son of Man is said to be with the clouds of heaven.

“I was watching in the night visions,
And behold, One like the Son of Man,
Coming with the clouds of heaven!"

hmm - you "quoted something" in your post defending the practice of quoting nothing at all - to support the accusation that someone has taken something out of context.

That's a bit self-conflicted on your part -- don't you think? You are proving my point.

You agree with me then - that you have to actually quote something to sustain such an accusation against someone??

Your post was incredibly revealing about what was lacking...

I don't have his personal conviction.

apparently you don't mind the fact that you have to actually point to something, quote something ... to try and make his accusation stick.

ITs the same thing I kept pointing out to him.

 

[BobRyan]

2 Corinthians 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.

WE appear before the judgment seat of Christ, and not just in spirit, because we RECEIVE according to what we have done.

Matthew 25:31 “When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory.

1. Bad deeds Rom 6:23 get the lake of fire of Rev 20.
2. The judgment is out of books in both Dan 7 and Rev 20 - and deals with the details of each case,
3. When the Son of man comes - He raptures the saints as we see in Rev 14:14 and then slays all the wicked.

Dan 7 describes NO courtroom deliberation event at the vs 27 Advent. Only when all that court room action is over and judgment is passed in favor of the saints - is the Advent event in Dan 7:27 brought in.

BY FAITH - we are there -- today

And even today we argue "WE ARE seated with HIM in heavenly places"

Eph 2:
4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,

Heb 4:15 For we do not have a high priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but One who has been tempted in all things as we are, yet without sin. 16 Therefore let us draw near with confidence to the throne of grace, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help in time of need.


Heb 10:19 Therefore, brethren, since we have confidence to enter the holy place by the blood of Jesus, 20 by a new and living way which He inaugurated for us through the veil, that is, His flesh, 21 and since we have a great priest over the house of God, 22 let us draw near with a sincere heart in full assurance of faith,

 

[tall73]

I will respond to Bob regarding the Daniel 7 material in a while. But regarding the 70 weeks, I came across this while doing some other research:

Augustine, City of God, Of the Prophecy of Daniel and Ezekiel, Other Two of the Greater Prophets.

Daniel even defined the time when Christ was to come and suffer by the exact date. It would take too long to show this by computation, and it has been done often by others before us.

 

[tall73]

Again regarding the 70 weeks:

Augustine, Reply to Faustus the Manichæan, Book 12

In the passage quoted from Daniel by the Lord Himself, "When ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place, let him that readeth understand," the number of weeks points not only to Christ, but to the very time of His advent. With the Jews, who look to Christ for salvation as we do, but deny that He has come and suffered, we can argue from actual events. Besides the conversion of the heathen, now so universal, as prophesied of Christ in their own Scriptures, there are the events in the history of the Jews themselves. Their holy place is thrown down, the sacrifice has ceased, and the priest, and the ancient anointing; which was all clearly foretold by Daniel when he prophesied of the anointing of the Most Holy. Now, that all these things have taken place, we ask the Jews for the anointed Most Holy, and they have no answer to give.

 

[tall73]

I have read Daniel 7 and I have read absolutely nothing that corresponds with the doctrine of the Investigative Judgement as expounded by EGW. Rather what it describes is the Eschaton, when after the last trumpet, all shall be raised, when Christ Pantocrator will assume the dread judgement seat of God and the Book of Life will be opened, with the saved going to the World to Come and the reprobate being damned to the outer darkness for all eternity. And this is not a controversial statement. You seem to be using basically the same text all Christians understand as the basis for the Last Judgement as traditionally defined and claiming that it uniquely and specifically tallies with the unique interpretation of the Investigative Judgement as presented by Ellen G. White, which the majority of Christians including myself disagree with.

For those who might be interested:

Justin Martyr, Dialogue with Trypho chapter 31

“But if so great a power is shown to have followed and to be still following the dispensation of His suffering, how great shall that be which shall follow His glorious advent! For He shall come on the clouds as the Son of man, so Daniel foretold, and His angels shall come with Him. These are the words: ‘I beheld till the thrones were set; and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of His head like the pure wool. His throne was like a fiery flame, His wheels as burning fire. A fiery stream issued and came forth from before Him. Thousand thousands ministered unto Him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before Him. The books were opened, and the judgment was set. I beheld then the voice of the great words which the horn speaks: and the beast was beat down, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame. And the rest of the beasts were taken away from their dominion, and a period of life was given to the beasts until a season and time. I saw in the vision of the night, and, behold, one like the Son of man coming with the clouds of heaven; and He came to the Ancient of days, and stood before Him. And they who stood by brought Him near; and there were given Him power and kingly honour, and all nations of the earth by their families, and all glory, serve Him. And His dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not be taken away; and His kingdom shall not be destroyed.


Irenaeus Against Heresies, Book 4, chapter 33

..The advent of Christ, which He accomplished for the salvation of men, nor are willing to understand that all the prophets announced His two advents: the one, indeed, in which He became a man subject to stripes, and knowing what it is to bear infirmity, and sat upon the foal of an ass,and was a stone rejected by the builders,and was led as a sheep to the slaughter......but the second in which He will come on the clouds bringing on the day which burns as a furnace,and smiting the earth with the word of His mouth, and slaying the impious with the breath of His lips, and having a fan in His hands, and cleansing His floor, and gathering the wheat indeed into His barn, but burning the chaff with unquenchable fire.


Tertullian Against Marcion Book 3, chapter 7

Now these signs of degradation quite suit His first coming, just as the tokens of His majesty do His second advent, when He shall no longer remain “a stone of stumbling and a rock of offence,” but after His rejection become “the chief corner-stone,” accepted and elevated to the top place of the temple, even His church, being that very stone in Daniel, cut out of the mountain, which was to smite and crush the image of the secular kingdom. Of this advent the same prophet says: “Behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days; and they brought Him before Him, and there was given Him dominion and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages should serve Him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away; and His kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.


Book 4 chapter 39

This will be the great day of the Lord, and of the glorious coming of the Son of man from heaven, of which Daniel wrote: “Behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven" “And there was given unto Him the kingly power, ' which (in the parable) “He went away into a far country to receive for Himself,” leaving money to His servants wherewithal to trade and get increase

Hippolytus, Treatise on Christ and Antichrist

For as two advents of our Lord and Saviour are indicated in the Scriptures, the one being His first advent in the flesh, which took place without honour by reason of His being set at nought, as Isaiah spake of Him aforetime, saying, “We saw Him, and He had no form nor comeliness, but His form was despised (and) rejected (lit. = deficient) above all men; a man smitten and familiar with bearing infirmity, (for His face was turned away); He was despised, and esteemed not.” But His second advent is announced as glorious, when He shall come from heaven with the host of angels, and the glory of His Father, as the prophet saith, “Ye shall see the King in glory;” and, “I saw one like the Son of man coming with the clouds of heaven; and he came to the Ancient of days, and he was brought to Him. And there were given Him dominion, and honour, and glory, and the kingdom; all tribes and languages shall serve Him: His dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away.

Jerome, A Commentary on the Apostles' Creed Section 34


The Prophet Malachi says, “Behold the Lord Almighty shall come, and who shall abide the day of His coming, or who shall abide the sight of Him? For He doth come as the fire of a furnace and as fuller’s soap: and He shall sit, refining and purifying as it were gold and silver. But that thou mayest know more certainly Who this Lord is of Whom these things are said, hear what the Prophet Daniel also foretells: “I saw,” saith he, “in the vision of the night, and, behold, One like the Son of Man coming with the clouds of heaven, and He came nigh to the Ancient of days, and was brought near before Him; and there was given to Him dominion, and honour, and a kingdom. And all peoples, tribes, and languages shall serve Him. And His dominion is an eternal dominion which shall not pass away, and His kingdom shall not be destroyed.” By these words we are taught not only of His coming and judgment, but of His dominion and kingdom, that His dominion is eternal, and His kingdom indestructible, without end; as it is said in the Creed

Basil, Letter to a Fallen Virgin

Picture to me, as it rises in your imagination, the conclusion of all human life, when the Son of God shall come in His glory with His angels, “For he shall come and shall not keep silence; when He shall come to judge the quick and dead, to render to every one according to his work; when that terrible trumpet with its mighty voice shall wake those that have slept through the ages, and they that have done good shall come forth unto the resurrection of life, and they that have done evil unto the resurrection of damnation. Remember the vision of Daniel, and how he brings the judgment before us: “I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of His head like the pure wool;…and His wheels as burning fire. A fiery stream issued and came forth before Him; thousand thousands ministered unto Him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before Him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened,” clearly disclosing in the hearing of all, angels and men, things good and evil, things done openly and in secret, deeds, words, and thoughts all at once. What then must those men be who have lived wicked lives? Where then shall that soul hide which in the sight of all these spectators shall suddenly be revealed in its fulness of shame?

 

[tall73]

Regarding the 70 weeks

Origen, De Principiis IV Chapter I That the Scriptures are Divinely Inspired.

Even the place of His birth was predicted in the prophecies of Micah, who said, “And thou, Bethlehem, land of Judah, art by no means small among the leaders of Judah: for out of thee shall come forth a Leader, who shall rule My people Israel.” The weeks of years, also, which the prophet Daniel had predicted, extending to the leadership of Christ, have been fulfilled.

 

[tall73]

Eusebius Church History, Book 1 Chapter 6

These things have been recorded by us in order to show that another prophecy has been fulfilled in the appearance of our Saviour Jesus Christ. For the Scripture, in the book of Daniel, having expressly mentioned a certain number of weeks until the coming of Christ, of which we have treated in other books