Adventists affirm Mark 1:15 regarding Dan 9 and the 70 weeks prophecy and pre-advent Investigative Judgment of Dan 7

[tall73]

That is the condemnation/execution of the wicked - it is not done in the court room , with the court seated and books opened...

Bob, the action is to slay the little horn, and the fourth beast, and to strip the authority of the other beasts. But this was all decided by the court prior to it happening:


‘But the court shall be seated,
And they shall take away his dominion,
To consume and destroy it forever.

The dominion of the other beasts is taken away:

Daniel 7: 11“I watched then because of the sound of the [f]pompous words which the horn was speaking; I watched till the beast was slain, and its body destroyed and given to the burning flame. 12 As for the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away, yet their lives were prolonged for a season and a time.

Who do you think removed their authority Bob?

Daniel 2:20 Daniel answered and said:
“Blessed be the name of God forever and ever,
For wisdom and might are His.
21 And He changes the times and the seasons;
He removes kings and raises up kings;
He gives wisdom to the wise

The court determined the judgment against them, and it was carried out. The saints received judgment in their favor, and the nations were judged.

This all culminates in the coming of the Lord.

And THEN we see the judgment of individual cases, where people appear before the judgment seat, confess, give account, kneel, etc. as the texts spell out.


1Corinthians 4:5 Therefore do not pronounce judgment before the time, before the Lord comes, who will bring to light the things now hidden in darkness and will disclose the purposes of the heart. Then each one will receive his commendation from God.

Romans 14 10b For we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. 11 For it is written: “As I live, says the Lord, Every knee shall bow to Me, And every tongue shall confess to God.” 12 So then each of us shall give account of himself to God.


2 Corinthians 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.

2 Timothy 4:6 8 Finally, there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will give to me on that Day, and not to me only but also to all who have loved His appearing.

Mat 25:31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne.
Mat 25:32 Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.
Mat 25:33 And he will place the sheep on his right, but the goats on the left.
Mat 25:34 Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.
Mat 25:35 For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me,
Mat 25:36 I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.’
Mat 25:37 Then the righteous will answer him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink?
Mat 25:38 And when did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you?
Mat 25:39 And when did we see you sick or in prison and visit you?’
Mat 25:40 And the King will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, you did it to me.’
Mat 25:41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
Mat 25:42 For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink,
Mat 25:43 I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.’
Mat 25:44 Then they also will answer, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to you?’
Mat 25:45 Then he will answer them, saying, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’
Mat 25:46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”


Matthew 25:14 “For the kingdom of heaven is like a man traveling to a far country, who called his own servants and delivered his goods to them. 15 And to one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one, to each according to his own ability; and immediately he went on a journey. 16 Then he who had received the five talents went and traded with them, and made another five talents. 17 And likewise he who had received two gained two more also. 18 But he who had received one went and dug in the ground, and hid his lord’s money. 19 After a long time the lord of those servants came and settled accounts with them.
20 “So he who had received five talents came and brought five other talents, saying, ‘Lord, you delivered to me five talents; look, I have gained five more talents besides them.’ 21 His lord said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant; you were faithful over a few things, I will make you ruler over many things. Enter into the joy of your lord.’ 22 He also who had received two talents came and said, ‘Lord, you delivered to me two talents; look, I have gained two more talents besides them.’ 23 His lord said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant; you have been faithful over a few things, I will make you ruler over many things. Enter into the joy of your lord.’
24 “Then he who had received the one talent came and said, ‘Lord, I knew you to be a hard man, reaping where you have not sown, and gathering where you have not scattered seed. 25 And I was afraid, and went and hid your talent in the ground. Look, there you have what is yours.’ 26 “But his lord answered and said to him, ‘You wicked and lazy servant, you knew that I reap where I have not sown, and gather where I have not scattered seed. 27 So you ought to have deposited my money with the bankers, and at my coming I would have received back my own with interest. 28 So take the talent from him, and give it to him who has ten talents.

Matthew 7:21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’


They appear before Him, He judges them, and some protest, but He presents their record. Then they receive their reward.

 

[BobRyan]

I do not hold the same position as the Liturgist. I do not think Daniel 7 is describing the judgment on individuals, and the revealing of the secrets of the heart. That happens AFTER Jesus coming, as I have posted Scriptures showing repeatedly.

The Dan 7 Pre-advent Investigative Judgment is done in the Dan 7:9-10 courtroom of heaven which preceeds the Advent of Christ as Dan 7:27 clearly says.

That decision in heaven is REVEALED on Earth by the rapture of the saints (1 Thess 4:13-18) Rev 14:14-16 followed by the destruction of the wicked in Rev 14:17-end (also in 2 Thess 1:5-8)

The judgment on the beasts in chapter 7,

There is no "judgment on beasts" statement in Dan 7 regarding that court room

- rather as vs 21-22 state (Which apparently even you now admit is pre-Advent) the wicked torment the saints for the entire period of that judgment as the text explicitly says and has been repeatedly pointed out for you as we both know.

which the whole chapter deals with, and the judgment in favor of the saints as a group happens BEFORE Jesus coming, and must do so not only because the saints are being persecuted, but because it is by the coming of Jesus that the man of sin/little horn is destroyed.

If the judgment of the saints being completed is what stops the wicked from persecuting the saints then that judgment

BTW There is no "Judgment of the saints AS A GROUP" text in all of the Bible not even in Dan 7.

No wonder you oppose the Rom 2:4-16 process that describes the judgment since it shows it to individual by individual. The very thing you were hoping would not be the case.. How "instructive" for the unbiased objective readers.

So we very much agree that the judgment scene of Daniel 7 is PRE-ADVENT.

It is based out of the records in the books of heaven according to Dan 7 --were you actually reading the Dan 7 thread for this topic

Adventists affirm Dan 7 pre-advent Investigative judgment (and then Dan 8 and Dan 9 for it being started in 1844)

Dan 7 describes the pre-advent Investigative judgment - vs 9-10 Pre-Advent Investigative (review of books, records in heaven by "the court") -- vs 21-22 "Judgment passed in favor of the saints" -- so they are being evaluated/reviewed/discussed (as Rom 2:4-16 describes it)...

www.christianforums.com

Which is how we get to "investigative" in the "Investigative Judgment"

But it is not the Adventist Ij.

oh but it is.

Because it shows judgment on the beasts

Does not say "Judgment passed on the beasts" in vs 21-22 but "until judgment was passed in favor of the saints"

That is irrefutable.

It has been pointed out to you repeatedly.

The theoretical Adventist IJ which you have no text picturing,

I have Dan 7:9-10, 21-22

Court room
Judgment with myriads and myriads in that court room in heaven
With the wicked tormenting the saints the whole time.
Passed in favor of the saints

(the idea that heaven was not aware that wicked-are-wicked is hard to establish)

deals with individual cases of professed followers of God.

Just as we see in Rom 2:4-16
Just as we see in 2 Cor 5:10

The beasts are not professed followers of God.

Which is why Dan 7:21-22 "Judgment passed in favor of the beasts" or "until judgment passed on beasts"

And the chapter does not picture individual judgment.

Indeed it does until the entire group of the saints has been completely judged with judgment passed in their favor.

2 Cor 5:10 does not say "as a GROUP we must stand before the judgment seat of Christ" but rather "EACH ONE" must stand before the judgement seat of Christ... and we both know it.

The in-person judgment where we kneel, confess, stand before the throne, give account, etc. is at Jesus' coming.

Not true. Judgment is passed in favor of the saints in Dan 7:21-22 as the text says - pre-advent.

Then comes the rapture of the saints as we see in 1 Thess 4 and Rev 14, and Matt 24
Followed by the destruction of all unbelievers as 2 Thess 1:5-8 states.

Good thing this thread is on Mark 1:15 and Dan 9 (as we can all see in the title and OP)

So we have this dedicated thread for one of your "other topics"

Adventists affirm Dan 7 pre-advent Investigative judgment (and then Dan 8 and Dan 9 for it being started in 1844)

Dan 7 describes the pre-advent Investigative judgment - vs 9-10 Pre-Advent Investigative (review of books, records in heaven by "the court") -- vs 21-22 "Judgment passed in favor of the saints" -- so they are being evaluated/reviewed/discussed (as Rom 2:4-16 describes it)...

www.christianforums.com

 

[tall73]

What kind of nonsense is it to claim that if more than one text is used to get all details on a given Bible doctrine -- then it should be rejected?

No Bob. I did not say you cannot look at multiple texts on the same subject. I said you are combining two texts that are not ON The same subject. You don't have one text that even establishes that the Adventist IJ--the one that looks ONLY at the professed followers of God, without them being present, etc. even exists.

Combining two texts that don't describe an Adventist IJ doesn't then yield an Adventist IJ.

But we see the timing of judgment on individual cases spelled out in the texts.


1Corinthians 4:5 Therefore do not pronounce judgment before the time, before the Lord comes, who will bring to light the things now hidden in darkness and will disclose the purposes of the heart. Then each one will receive his commendation from God.

Romans 1410 b For we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. 11 For it is written: “As I live, says the Lord, Every knee shall bow to Me, And every tongue shall confess to God.” 12 So then each of us shall give account of himself to God.

2 Corinthians 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.

2 Timothy 4:6 8 Finally, there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will give to me on that Day, and not to me only but also to all who have loved His appearing.

Matthew 25:31 “When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the [c]holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. 33 And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. 34 Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 35 for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in; 36 I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.’
37 “Then the righteous will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You drink? 38 When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You? 39 Or when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’ 40 And the King will answer and say to them, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.’
41 “Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: 42 for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; 43 I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.’
44 “Then they also will answer [d]Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?’ 45 Then He will answer them, saying, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ 46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

Matthew 25:14 “For the kingdom of heaven is like a man traveling to a far country, who called his own servants and delivered his goods to them. 15 And to one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one, to each according to his own ability; and immediately he went on a journey. 16 Then he who had received the five talents went and traded with them, and made another five talents. 17 And likewise he who had received two gained two more also. 18 But he who had received one went and dug in the ground, and hid his lord’s money. 19 After a long time the lord of those servants came and settled accounts with them.
20 “So he who had received five talents came and brought five other talents, saying, ‘Lord, you delivered to me five talents; look, I have gained five more talents besides them.’ 21 His lord said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant; you were faithful over a few things, I will make you ruler over many things. Enter into the joy of your lord.’ 22 He also who had received two talents came and said, ‘Lord, you delivered to me two talents; look, I have gained two more talents besides them.’ 23 His lord said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant; you have been faithful over a few things, I will make you ruler over many things. Enter into the joy of your lord.’
24 “Then he who had received the one talent came and said, ‘Lord, I knew you to be a hard man, reaping where you have not sown, and gathering where you have not scattered seed. 25 And I was afraid, and went and hid your talent in the ground. Look, there you have what is yours.’ 26 “But his lord answered and said to him, ‘You wicked and lazy servant, you knew that I reap where I have not sown, and gather where I have not scattered seed. 27 So you ought to have deposited my money with the bankers, and at my coming I would have received back my own with interest. 28 So take the talent from him, and give it to him who has ten talents.

Matthew 7:21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

I have responded repeatedly to your "church members not supposed to judge other church members" text -- and we both know it.

Of course you haven't responded to it.

1Corinthians 4:5 Therefore do not pronounce judgment before the time, before the Lord comes, who will bring to light the things now hidden in darkness and will disclose the purposes of the heart. Then each one will receive his commendation from God.

You responded to the first clause.

And the rest of it points out your problem. The Lord, when He comes, will bring to light the things hidden in darkness, and disclose the purpoes of the heart.

before the Lord comes, who will bring to light the things now hidden in darkness and will disclose the purposes of the heart. Then each one will receive his commendation from God.

And we see that in many texts. He questions them, they give account. Judgment is rendered.

 

[tall73]

Now here is where you quote me - asking for some sort of reasonable basis to support the accusation that something is amiss, something is taken out of context...

I did not say you could not argue against his accusation of being out of context. And you did respond to what he said, even it contained no quotations by him.

I said, and quoted you saying, that once he said he was convicted not to quote the text you should not keep urging him to violate his conscious and quote the text.

If he wishes to not quote it and wants to speak more generally, as he suggested mentioning a verse number ,etc. thatis up to him.

I agree it may hurt his presentation. But that does not excuse you for trying to urge him to do something he said would violate his conscience.

 

[tall73]

The idea that my page-1 OP statement is somehow "pretending" something - is hard to believe. I am looking for facts in that regard - do you have 1?

No, you are now pretending your OP didn't include multiple topics. It did, and now you are stuck with it.

 

[tall73]

BTW There is no "Judgment of the saints AS A GROUP" text in all of the Bible not even in Dan 7.

Your not understanding the delivering of the saints from the beasts is just that--your lack of understanding.

The saints are identified prior to the start of the judgment scene. So the judgement scene is not to figure out who the saints are. Nor is to figure out who the beats are. They are the ones persecuting the saints.

The court sits and dominion is taken away:

6 ‘But the court shall be seated,
And they shall take away his dominion,
To consume and destroy it forever.
27 Then the kingdom and dominion,

No wonder you oppose the Rom 2:4-16 process that describes the judgment since it shows it to individual by individual. The very thing you were hoping would not be the case.. How "instructive" for the unbiased objective readers.

Hardly! I have posted far more texts on individual judment than you, beacuse I am not afraid of the details that don't fit your scheme. The judgment involves appearing before the throne, not being absent. The judgment involves confession, kneeling, bowing, confessing, giving account, pronounced judgment, reward, etc. And the texts have all been posted.

There is no reason for an Adventist IJ, because people confess before the throne.

2 Cor 5:10 does not say "as a GROUP we must stand before the judgment seat of Christ" but rather "EACH ONE" must stand before the judgement seat of Christ... and we both know it.

Of couse we are judged individually in 2 Corinthians 5:10 . And it is at Jesus' coming, not prior.

2 Corinthians 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.

We actually appear before the judgment seat, not fail to appear as in the the Adventist IJ.

And we RECEIVE according to what we have done, unlike the made up Adventist IJ where no one is there to receive it.

 

[BobRyan]

Of couse we are judged individually in 2 Corinthians 5:10 .

And it is at the time that judgment is passed in favor of the saints -- in Dan 7 - the pre-advent judgment "out of books of record" the record of what each individual did. PRIOR to the Dan 7:27 advent of Christ. Obviously

This is always the case

1. as we see in 2 Cor 5:10 EACH one judge based on "deeds done in the body whether good or bad".
2. As we see in Rom 2:4-16 failing cases compared to succeeding cases - according to deed "DOERS" Rom 2:13
3. As we see in Matt 7 - "not everyone who SAYS Lord Lord - but he who DOES"

I have posted far more texts on individual judment than you,

Then you appear to have no excuse for your failed "judged as a group not as individuals" suggestions in Dan 7.

There is no such thing as a factless judgment of saints "as a group" where nothing at all is review about any individual .

1. NO one is saved as a group because they are in a given denomination
2. NO one is saved as a group because they claim to be in the group called Christian
3. NO one is saved in a group fashion at all where nothing at all is to be considered about any individual!

That would be total unscriptural nonsense. (And I presume all would know this)

No GROUP salvation, no GROUP judgment where no details about anyone is to be considered -- and we both know it.

What sort of judgment can you have with NO DETAILS?
"hmm I guess it is a good idea to HAVE saints!" what kind of judgment would THAT be??

Please be serious.

So then AT Jesus' advent - the result of that judgment is revealed to man in that the saints are raptured (Rev 14:14-15, 1 Thess 4:13-18, Matt 24:29-31
And unbelievers are all destroyed 2 Thess 1:5-8

2 Corinthians 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.

Individuals are judged out of the record of what is in the BOOKS of Dan 7:9-10
And even today we argue "WE ARE seated with HIM in heavenly places"

Eph 2:
4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,

Heb 4:15 For we do not have a high priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but One who has been tempted in all things as we are, yet without sin. 16 Therefore let us draw near with confidence to the throne of grace, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help in time of need.

Heb 10:19 Therefore, brethren, since we have confidence to enter the holy place by the blood of Jesus, 20 by a new and living way which He inaugurated for us through the veil, that is, His flesh, 21 and since we have a great priest over the house of God, 22 let us draw near with a sincere heart in full assurance of faith,

Your suggestions do not pass the test of scripture - the details of Dan 7 and the basics of the Gospel such that judgment is always case by case and we ARE seated with Him in the heavenly places by faith .

 

[BobRyan]

Your not understanding the delivering of the saints from the beasts is just that--your lack of understanding.

Your lack of attention to details in Dan 7 is amazng.

The saints are identified prior to the start of the judgment scene

No they are not. The wicked have no "god powers" to know who is and how is not a genuine saved individuals - and we all know it.

vs 21-22 at the conclusion of the judgment "judgment is passed in favor of the saints

 

[BobRyan]

No, you are now pretending your OP didn't include multiple topics. It did, and now you are stuck with it.

My OP has this quote in it - a detail you ignoring "again"

My title is - "Adventists affirm Mark 1:15 regarding Dan 9 and the 70 weeks prophecy and Investigative Judgment start in 1844"

But I can see that the Dan 7 "investigative judgment start in 1844" topic is too much for one thread so I am making it into its own thread.

I have always stated that the Dan 7 chapter topics/details alone establish the preAdvent judgment out of BOOKs where judgment is passed in favor of the saints on the basis that all scripture says it is ..

2 Cor 5:10
Rom 2:4-16
Matt 7 "not everyone who SAYS Lord lord will enter"

 

[BobRyan]

I do not hold the same position as the Liturgist. I do not think Daniel 7 is describing the judgment on individuals, and the revealing of the secrets of the heart. That happens AFTER Jesus coming, as I have posted Scriptures showing repeatedly.

The Dan 7 Pre-advent Investigative Judgment is done in the Dan 7:9-10 courtroom of heaven which preceeds the Advent of Christ as Dan 7:27 clearly says.

That decision in heaven is REVEALED on Earth by the rapture of the saints (1 Thess 4:13-18) Rev 14:14-16 followed by the destruction of the wicked in Rev 14:17-end (also in 2 Thess 1:5-8)

The judgment on the beasts in chapter 7,

There is no "judgment on beasts" statement in Dan 7 regarding that court room

- rather as vs 21-22 state (Which apparently even you now admit is pre-Advent) the wicked torment the saints for the entire period of that judgment as the text explicitly says and has been repeatedly pointed out for you as we both know.

which the whole chapter deals with, and the judgment in favor of the saints as a group happens BEFORE Jesus coming, and must do so not only because the saints are being persecuted, but because it is by the coming of Jesus that the man of sin/little horn is destroyed.

If the judgment of the saints being completed is what stops the wicked from persecuting the saints then that judgment

BTW There is no "Judgment of the saints AS A GROUP" text in all of the Bible not even in Dan 7.

No wonder you oppose the Rom 2:4-16 process that describes the judgment since it shows it to individual by individual. The very thing you were hoping would not be the case.. How "instructive" for the unbiased objective readers.

So we very much agree that the judgment scene of Daniel 7 is PRE-ADVENT.

It is based out of the records in the books of heaven according to Dan 7 --were you actually reading the Dan 7 thread for this topic

Adventists affirm Dan 7 pre-advent Investigative judgment (and then Dan 8 and Dan 9 for it being started in 1844)

Dan 7 describes the pre-advent Investigative judgment - vs 9-10 Pre-Advent Investigative (review of books, records in heaven by "the court") -- vs 21-22 "Judgment passed in favor of the saints" -- so they are being evaluated/reviewed/discussed (as Rom 2:4-16 describes it)...

www.christianforums.com

Which is how we get to "investigative" in the "Investigative Judgment"

But it is not the Adventist Ij.

oh but it is.

Because it shows judgment on the beasts

Does not say "Judgment passed on the beasts" in vs 21-22 but "until judgment was passed in favor of the saints"

That is irrefutable.

It has been pointed out to you repeatedly.

The theoretical Adventist IJ which you have no text picturing,

I have Dan 7:9-10, 21-22

Court room
Judgment with myriads and myriads in that court room in heaven
With the wicked tormenting the saints the whole time.
Passed in favor of the saints

(the idea that heaven was not aware that wicked-are-wicked is hard to establish)

deals with individual cases of professed followers of God.

Just as we see in Rom 2:4-16
Just as we see in 2 Cor 5:10

The beasts are not professed followers of God.

Which is why Dan 7:21-22 "Judgment passed in favor of the beasts" or "until judgment passed on beasts"

And the chapter does not picture individual judgment.

Indeed it does until the entire body of the saints has been completely evaluated case by case with judgment passed in their favor.
as we saw here -- #127

2 Cor 5:10 does not say "as a GROUP we must stand before the judgment seat of Christ" but rather "EACH ONE" must stand before the judgement seat of Christ... and we both know it.

The in-person judgment where we kneel, confess, stand before the throne, give account, etc. is at Jesus' coming.

Not true. Judgment is passed in favor of the saints in Dan 7:21-22 as the text says - pre-advent.
Where case-by-case evaluation is made as we saw here -- #127
It is not very logical to have a no-facts judgment where they debate "is it at good thing to even have saints" all the while the wicked are tormenting the saints until "judgment is passed in favor of the idea of having a group of saints". That makes no sense at all.. I think we all know that.

Then comes the rapture of the saints as we see in 1 Thess 4 and Rev 14, and Matt 24
Followed by the destruction of all unbelievers as 2 Thess 1:5-8 states.

Good thing this thread is on Mark 1:15 and Dan 9 (as we can all see in the title and OP)

 

[BobRyan]

No Bob. I did not say you cannot look at multiple texts on the same subject. I said you are combining two texts

I fully agree - I am taking an number of texts on the judgment future to the days of Bible writers and before the Advent of Christ.

that are not ON The same subject

false.

You don't have one text that even establishes that the Adventist IJ

I have an entire chapter (Dan 7) and THREAD that does it. As most of us know by now.

Adventists affirm Dan 7 pre-advent Investigative judgment (and then Dan 8 and Dan 9 for it being started in 1844)

Dan 7 describes the pre-advent Investigative judgment - vs 9-10 Pre-Advent Investigative (review of books, records in heaven by "the court") -- vs 21-22 "Judgment passed in favor of the saints" -- so they are being evaluated/reviewed/discussed (as Rom 2:4-16 describes it)...

www.christianforums.com

That thread starts like this --

Dan 7 describes the pre-advent Investigative judgment -​

vs 9-10 Pre-Advent Investigative (review of books, records in heaven by "the court") --​

vs 21-22 "Judgment passed in favor of the saints" -- so they are being evaluated/reviewed/discussed (as Rom 2:4-16 describes it)​

See Job 1, and Job 2 for the interest/focus of heavenly courts on the saints vs the wicked..​

vs 21, 22,25 Persecution of saints happens WHILE this courtroom judgment in Dan 7 takes place - and continues - until judgment completes.​

vs 27 "Then comes the ADVENT" -- so all the above is "pre-Advent"​

​

and then EACH of those references is explored in detail.​

Just the kind of thread - you might not want to post on since that is the entire topic of the thread.

Unlike this one that is on Mark 1:15, Dan 9 and the 490 timeline we find in Dan 9 starting in 457 B.C.

Were we simply "not supposed to notice"??

 

[BobRyan]

Bob, the action is to slay the little horn, and the fourth beast, and to strip the authority of the other beasts

Tall - the action in vs 21 and 22 is to pass judgment in favor of the saints .,. where that judgment is based on the DETAILS regarding each of the saints as recorded in the BOOKS of Dan 7:9-10... pre-advent.

And all the while that is going -- the saints are being tormented by the wicked according to Dan 7.

Only at the END of that judgment ,, only when it concludes is there action taken against the wicked according to Dan 7.

You can see that in this thread

Adventists affirm Dan 7 pre-advent Investigative judgment (and then Dan 8 and Dan 9 for it being started in 1844)

Dan 7 describes the pre-advent Investigative judgment - vs 9-10 Pre-Advent Investigative (review of books, records in heaven by "the court") -- vs 21-22 "Judgment passed in favor of the saints" -- so they are being evaluated/reviewed/discussed (as Rom 2:4-16 describes it)...

www.christianforums.com

Instead of the thread you are posting on that deals with Mark 1:15, and Dan 9 and the 490 year timeline that starts in 457 B.C.

But this was all decided by the court prior to it happening:


‘But the court shall be seated,
And they shall take away his dominion,
To consume and destroy it forever.

The court sits and judges out of the books in vs 9-10 of Dan 7 then "judgment is passed in favor of the saints" and only THEN do we see action taken against the wicked.

I could post the link to the Dan 7 text again if you wish.

 

[tall73]

There is no "judgment on beasts" statement in Dan 7 regarding that court room

Sure there is. The four beasts, and the little horn from the fourth beast are judged.


‘But the court shall be seated,
And they shall take away his dominion,
To consume and destroy it forever.


The dominion of the other beasts is taken away:

Daniel 7: 11“I watched then because of the sound of the [f]pompous words which the horn was speaking; I watched till the beast was slain, and its body destroyed and given to the burning flame. 12 As for the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away, yet their lives were prolonged for a season and a time.


-----
tall73 said:
Bob, the action is to slay the little horn, and the fourth beast, and to strip the authority of the other beasts

Tall - the action in vs 21 and 22 is to pass judgment in favor of the saints .,. where that judgment is based on the DETAILS regarding each of the saints as recorded in the BOOKS of Dan 7:9-10... pre-advent.

Judgment is given in favor of the saints. There is nothing said about the details of each saint. You added that to the text. The passage does not show any individual judgment on the saints.

And all the while that is going -- the saints are being tormented by the wicked according to Dan 7.

The saints are being persecuted during the judgment scene, we agree.

Only at the END of that judgment ,, only when it concludes is there action taken against the wicked according to Dan 7.

So you admit that action is taken against the wicked at the end of the judgment. Yes, that is the point. the wicked are persecuting the saints and God takes away the dominion of the beats, slays the fourth beast, and removes the dominion of the little horn. He rules in favor of the saints who are being persecuted and delivers them from their enemies.

And that is not a description of the Adventist IJ.

From Great Controversy:

So in the great day of final atonement and investigative judgment the only cases considered are those of the professed people of God. The judgment of the wicked is a distinct and separate work

----

The Babylonians, Medes and Persians, Greecians, and Romans are not made up only of professed people of God. This is not the Adventist IJ.


----
tall73 said:
The saints are identified prior to the start of the judgment scene

No they are not.

Yes, they are:

21 I was watching; and the same horn was making war against the saints, and prevailing against them, 22 until the Ancient of Days came, and a judgment was made in favor of the saints of the Most High...

The saints were being persecuted...then the judgment was made. And the result was judgment in favor of the saints, and the destruction of the fourth beast, and the little horn, as well as the removal of the dominion of the other beasts.

These were all things the court did.

The saints were saints throughout, and there was no picture of investigating to see who are saints in the passage.

And again:

25
He shall speak pompous words against the Most High,
Shall persecute the saints of the Most High,
And shall intend to change times and law.
Then the saints shall be given into his hand
For a time and times and half a time.

26
‘But the court shall be seated,
And they shall take away his dominion,
To consume and destroy it forever.


The saints are saints all through the period of persecution, and the judgment starts after their persecution.

From the Adventist time frame they are persecuted for 3.5 years, 1,260 days, 42 months, etc. prophetically. The judgment was NOT going on during that whole time, but there were saints that whole time.

The wicked have no "god powers" to know who is and how is not a genuine saved individuals - and we all know it.

Interesting phrasing Bob. God is the one who inspired the text which identifies the saints. And God one hundred percent knows who the saints are, and knows His own sheep.

As to the wicked persecuting the saints, the text says they do, and we see that happens. So if you insist on going by what the text says, yes the wicked manage to figure out who to persecute--the saints.

(the idea that heaven was not aware that wicked-are-wicked is hard to establish)

And the idea that heaven doesn't know that the saints, so identified, who are being persecuted by the wicked, who you say are easy to identify is also hard to establish.

Either way even you acknowledge that judgment from books IS used even for the wicked, even if it is obvious.


tall73 said:
And the chapter does not picture individual judgment.

Indeed it does until the entire body of the saints has been completely evaluated case by case with judgment passed in their favor.

The text does not say that at all. You read it in. The text says that the saints are persecuted until judgment is given in their favor, then the dominion of the little horn is taken away. The dominion of the other beasts is also taken away.

No GROUP salvation, no GROUP judgment where no details about anyone is to be considered -- and we both know it.

I am not arguing against indivdiual judgment for salvation. I have pointed out numerous texts on individual judgment, appearing before the judgment seat. You have avoided some of them because they do not fit your view.

I am indicating that the Scriptures show over and over again God rendering judgement against those who persecute his peoplpe. He is the righteous judge who when His people appeal to Him he delivers them. He judges their enemies and grants judgment in favor of his people.


This is the theme of Psalm 9 for instance:


I will praise You, O Lord, with my whole heart;
I will tell of all Your marvelous works.
2
I will be glad and rejoice in You;
I will sing praise to Your name, O Most High.

3
When my enemies turn back,
They shall fall and perish at Your presence.
4
For You have maintained my right and my cause;
You sat on the throne judging in righteousness.
5
You have rebuked the nations,
You have destroyed the wicked;
You have blotted out their name forever and ever.

6
O enemy, destructions are finished forever!
And you have destroyed cities;
Even their memory has perished.
7
But the Lord shall endure forever;
He has prepared His throne for judgment.
8
He shall judge the world in righteousness,
And He shall administer judgment for the peoples in uprightness.

9
The Lord also will be a refuge for the oppressed,
A refuge in times of trouble.
10
And those who know Your name will put their trust in You;
For You, Lord, have not forsaken those who seek You.

11
Sing praises to the Lord, who dwells in Zion!
Declare His deeds among the people.
12
When He avenges blood, He remembers them;
He does not forget the cry of the humble.

13
Have mercy on me, O Lord!
Consider my trouble from those who hate me,
You who lift me up from the gates of death,
14
That I may tell of all Your praise
In the gates of the daughter of Zion.
I will rejoice in Your salvation.

15
The nations have sunk down in the pit which they made;
In the net which they hid, their own foot is caught.
16
The Lord is known by the judgment He executes;
The wicked is snared in the work of his own hands.
Meditation. Selah

17
The wicked shall be turned into hell,
And all the nations that forget God.
18
For the needy shall not always be forgotten;
The expectation of the poor shall not perish forever.

19
Arise, O Lord,
Do not let man prevail;
Let the nations be judged in Your sight.
20
Put them in fear, O Lord,
That the nations may know themselves to be but men. Selah


The text of Daniel 7 points out who the saints are, who the ones are who persecute them, and there is no picturing of trying to figure out who the saints are. Instead, there is judgement for God's people, against the ones persecuting them, resulting in deliverance. God is the righeous Judge, who holds dominion over the nations.

God knows His own. and they are called saints in the text, because God knows who are His saints.

But there will be an indvidual judgment. And it happens at the coming of Jesus.

 

[tall73]

Now in regards to case by case judgment of indivdiuals, you are avoding the details.

tall73 said:
The in-person judgment where we kneel, confess, stand before the throne, give account, etc. is at Jesus' coming.

Your only answer to that is:

And even today we argue "WE ARE seated with HIM in heavenly places"

Eph 2:
4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,

Heb 4:15 For we do not have a high priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but One who has been tempted in all things as we are, yet without sin. 16 Therefore let us draw near with confidence to the throne of grace, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help in time of need.

Heb 10:19 Therefore, brethren, since we have confidence to enter the holy place by the blood of Jesus, 20 by a new and living way which He inaugurated for us through the veil, that is, His flesh, 21 and since we have a great priest over the house of God, 22 let us draw near with a sincere heart in full assurance of faith,

These do not in fact solve your problem. The texts speak of us confessing, kneeling, etc. that does not happen in the Adventist IJ.

In fact, per Ellen White the scenes are passing above, and we don't even know when the cases pass to the living, or when the decision has been made:

Great Controversy:

The judgment is now passing in the sanctuary above. For many years this work has been in progress. Soon—none know how soon—it will pass to the cases of the living. In the awful presence of God our lives are to come up in review. At this time above all others it behooves every soul to heed the Saviour's admonition: "Watch and pray: for ye know not when the time is."

The righteous and the wicked will still be living upon the earth in their mortal state—men will be planting and building, eating and drinking, all unconscious that the final, irrevocable decision has been pronounced in the sanctuary above.

Silently, unnoticed as the midnight thief, will come the decisive hour which marks the fixing of every man's destiny, the final withdrawal of mercy's offer to guilty men.

While the man of business is absorbed in the pursuit of gain, while the pleasure lover is seeking indulgence, while the daughter of fashion is arranging her adornments—it may be in that hour the Judge of all the earth will pronounce the sentence: "Thou art weighed in the balances, and art found wanting.
---------------------


In the Adventist IJ you don't know when your name comes up, let alone confess, knees, give account, etc.

But this is the very things the texts spell out. And a number of them you have not even attempted to explain.

1Corinthians 4:5 Therefore do not pronounce judgment before the time, before the Lord comes, who will bring to light the things now hidden in darkness and will disclose the purposes of the heart. Then each one will receive his commendation from God.

Judgment is when the Lord comes, who will bring to light the things now hidden, and disclose the purposes of the heart. AND at that time each receives commendation.

Romans 14 10b For we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. 11 For it is written: “As I live, says the Lord, Every knee shall bow to Me, And every tongue shall confess to God.” 12 So then each of us shall give account of himself to God.

We will stand before the judgment seat, not be absent as in the Adventist IJ. We kneel, bow, confess, and give an account.

2 Corinthians 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.

WE appear before the judgment seat of Christ, and not just in spirit, because we RECEIVE according to what we have done.

2 Timothy 4:6 8 Finally, there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will give to me on that Day, and not to me only but also to all who have loved His appearing.

Paul will RECEIVE from the Lord the crown on that day, from the Righteous Judge.

Mat 25:31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne.
Mat 25:32 Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.
Mat 25:33 And he will place the sheep on his right, but the goats on the left.
Mat 25:34 Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.
Mat 25:35 For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me,
Mat 25:36 I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.’
Mat 25:37 Then the righteous will answer him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink?
Mat 25:38 And when did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you?
Mat 25:39 And when did we see you sick or in prison and visit you?’
Mat 25:40 And the King will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, you did it to me.’
Mat 25:41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
Mat 25:42 For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink,
Mat 25:43 I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.’
Mat 25:44 Then they also will answer, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to you?’
Mat 25:45 Then he will answer them, saying, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’
Mat 25:46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

Here all are brought before His throne, some object, but He points to their record. This is a direct reference to the throne of judgment, and it is in person, not like the Adventist IJ.

Matthew 25:14 “For the kingdom of heaven is like a man traveling to a far country, who called his own servants and delivered his goods to them. 15 And to one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one, to each according to his own ability; and immediately he went on a journey. 16 Then he who had received the five talents went and traded with them, and made another five talents. 17 And likewise he who had received two gained two more also. 18 But he who had received one went and dug in the ground, and hid his lord’s money. 19 After a long time the lord of those servants came and settled accounts with them.
20 “So he who had received five talents came and brought five other talents, saying, ‘Lord, you delivered to me five talents; look, I have gained five more talents besides them.’ 21 His lord said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant; you were faithful over a few things, I will make you ruler over many things. Enter into the joy of your lord.’ 22 He also who had received two talents came and said, ‘Lord, you delivered to me two talents; look, I have gained two more talents besides them.’ 23 His lord said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant; you have been faithful over a few things, I will make you ruler over many things. Enter into the joy of your lord.’
24 “Then he who had received the one talent came and said, ‘Lord, I knew you to be a hard man, reaping where you have not sown, and gathering where you have not scattered seed. 25 And I was afraid, and went and hid your talent in the ground. Look, there you have what is yours.’ 26 “But his lord answered and said to him, ‘You wicked and lazy servant, you knew that I reap where I have not sown, and gather where I have not scattered seed. 27 So you ought to have deposited my money with the bankers, and at my coming I would have received back my own with interest. 28 So take the talent from him, and give it to him who has ten talents.

When the Lord returns He will examine His servants. They are judged before Him.

Matthew 7:21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

Here you say this answers to the Adventist IJ, but it does not. In the Adventist IJ you wouldn't even know your name was coming up. But here they list what they have done in His name, give an account, and He responds.

No wonder you oppose the Rom 2:4-16 process that describes the judgment since it shows it to individual by individual. The very thing you were hoping would not be the case.. How "instructive" for the unbiased objective readers.

Bob, it is quite instructive to the unbiased reader that Daniel 7 does not describe any individual judgment.

And the very texts that do show that judgment do not at all resemble the Adventist IJ.

We will appear before, stand before the judgment seat, the throne, and we will kneel, bow, confess, give account, and receive our reward.

These are multiple plain texts talking about individual judgment. And you ignore them. And I trust the unbiased individual will indeed notice.

 

[BobRyan]

Sure there is. The four beasts, and the little horn from the fourth beast

indeed there are - and the thread on Dan 7 that you are not posting on (choosing this Mark 1:15 and Dan 9 thread instead) shows how the details of the fourth beast help locate an age where the judgment of vs 9-10 begins.

But Dan 7:21-22 does not say that the wicked oppress the saints "until judgment is passed against the wicked".

As we all know.

You keep trying to get that idea inserted into Dan 7:21-22 and keep getting defeated by the details.

The dominion of the other beasts is taken away:

The death of the wicked only takes place once judgment is passed in favor of the saints. And we see how that process works in Rom 2:4-16...
All the while that is going on (according to Dan 7) the saints are being tormented by the wicked. Another detail that keeps ending your suggestions so far.

tall73 said:
Bob, the action is to slay the little horn, and the fourth beast, and to strip the authority of the other beasts

Judgment is given in favor of the saints. There is nothing said about the details of each saint.

until you read vs 9-10 where they are being judged out of the details recorded into the books of record.

Rev 20 describes this concept of "judgment out of books of record" -- this way

Rev 20:21 "... and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds."

And so it is in the Dan 7 example of the same thing "the court sat, the books were opened... until judgment was passed in favor of the saints"

1. as we see in 2 Cor 5:10 EACH one judge based on "deeds done in the body whether good or bad".
2. As we see in Rom 2:4-16 failing cases compared to succeeding cases - according to deed "DOERS" Rom 2:13
3. As we see in Matt 7 - "not everyone who SAYS Lord Lord - but he who DOES"

Your idea of "judgment passed in favor of the saints ... out of the books of record" without a single detail about any saint being considered -- is total nonsense.

So you admit that action is taken against the wicked at the end of the judgment. Yes, that is the point.

As stated repeatedly by me. The wicked are not killed until judgment is passed in favor of the saints based on the books of record opened and reveiewed.

 

[Freth]

Christ's statement in Mark 1:15 tells us exactly what the 69 weeks of Dan 9 are pointing to

All bible timelines are contiguous so then the 70 years in Dan 9 are one block, the 490 years of Dan 9 are one block, the 1260 years of Dan 7 are one block

Dan 7 clearly states that God's judgement takes place before the seconding - and WHILE the saints are being persecuted by the wicked.
See the following thread for details.

Adventists affirm Dan 7 pre-advent Investigative judgment (and then Dan 8 and Dan 9 for it being started in 1844)

Dan 7 describes the pre-advent Investigative judgment - vs 9-10 Pre-Advent Investigative (review of books, records in heaven by "the court") -- vs 21-22 "Judgment passed in favor of the saints" -- so they are being evaluated/reviewed/discussed (as Rom 2:4-16 describes it)...

www.christianforums.com

Somewhat connected to this thread topic is the following thread on the Judgment aspect of Yom Kippur (Day of Atonement Lev 16) and how it ties into Dan 7.

Adventists Affirm Dan 8:14, Lev 16 Day of Atonement, Yom Kippur, Judgment

Dan 8:14 references the cleansing of the Sanctuary Dan 7 and Dan 8 - both deal with the problem of "the little horn" persecuting the saints. In Dan 7 the solution is the pre-advent judgment (according to the chapter). You can discuss those details for Dan 7 on the following thread...

www.christianforums.com

I agree. I pointed this out in another thread, both here and here.

 

[H&TR]

(In light of many of the recent all-ellen-white-all-the-time-threads) I thought it would be a refreshing switch to have a Bible topic we all have the background info to discuss.

The title is sure to catch the attention of one or two members here.

Dan 9 has a 70 weeks (490 days... becomes day-for-year 490 years) timeline predicting the coming of Christ.
Then in Mark 1:15 Christ says that the prediction of the first part - the 483 years is fulfilled with the start of His ministry

Mark 1:

9 In those days Jesus came from Nazareth in Galilee and was baptized by John in the Jordan. 10 And immediately coming up out of the water, He saw the heavens opening, and the Spirit, like a dove, descending upon Him; 11 and a voice came from the heavens: “You are My beloved Son; in You I am well pleased.”​

12 And immediately the Spirit *brought Him out into the wilderness. 13 And He was in the wilderness for forty days, being tempted by Satan; and He was with the wild animals, and the angels were serving Him.​

14 Now after John was taken into custody, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of God, 15 and saying, “The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the gospel.”​

​

16 As He was going along the Sea of Galilee, He saw Simon and Andrew, the brother of Simon, casting a net in the sea; for they were fishermen. 17 And Jesus said to them, “Follow Me, and I will have you become fishers of people.” 18 Immediately they left their nets and followed Him.​

In Mark 1 we see the start of Jesus' ministry and it includes the message that the Dan 9 timeline predicting the exact year of Christ's first coming - had been fulfilled.

Dan 9:
24 “Seventy weeks have been decreed for your people and your holy city, to finish the wrongdoing, to make an end of sin, to make atonement for guilt, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy, and to anoint the Most Holy Place. 25 So you are to know and understand that from the issuing of a decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem, until Messiah the Prince, there will be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks; it will be built again, with streets and moat, even in times of distress. 26 Then after the sixty-two weeks, the Messiah will be cut off and have nothing

We find information about that decree referenced above in Dan 9 --- in Ezra 6,7 and in Ezra 9k

Ezra 6 tells us it is a 3-part decree with Cyrus, Darius and Artaxerxes all contributing to it.
14 And the elders of the Jews were successful in building through the prophecy of Haggai the prophet and Zechariah the son of Iddo. And they finished building following the command of the God of Israel and the decree of Cyrus, Darius, and Artaxerxes king of Persia.

Ezra 7: 8-9 --- in 457 B.C.

8 And he ( Ezra the priest) came to Jerusalem in the fifth month, which was in the seventh year of the king.(Artaxerxes king of Persia) 9 For on the first day of the first month he began to go up from Babylon; and on the first of the fifth month he came to Jerusalem, because the good hand of his God was upon him. 10 For Ezra had firmly resolved to study the Law of the Lord and to practice it, and to teach His statutes and ordinances in Israel.​

11 Now this is the copy of the letter which King Artaxerxes gave to Ezra the priest, the scribe, learned in the words of the commandments of the Lord and His statutes to Israel: 12 “Artaxerxes, king of kings, to Ezra the priest,​

(vs 15-23 treasures, gifts, gold to be sent with Ezra)


Ezra's prayer

Ezra 9:9 For we are slaves; yet in our bondage our God has not abandoned us, but has extended favor to us in the sight of the kings of Persia, to give us reviving to erect the house of our God, to restore its ruins, and to give us a wall in Judah and Jerusalem​

======================

Dan 9 is given as an "explanation" to the vision of Dan 8... because among other things - Dan 8 has no start date and Dan 9 gives an exact start date.
Dan 9 is the only OT prophecy with a timeline pointing to the start date of the Messiah's ministry.

So then the 490 years of Dan 9 starts in 457 B.C.
And the 2300 years (day for year) in Dan 8 start in 457 B.C.

===========================

My title is - "Adventists affirm Mark 1:15 regarding Dan 9 and the 70 weeks prophecy and Investigative Judgment start in 1844"

But I can see that the Dan 7 "investigative judgment start in 1844" topic is too much for one thread so I am making it into its own thread.

Very good. Agreed.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

(In light of many of the recent all-ellen-white-all-the-time-threads) I thought it would be a refreshing switch to have a Bible topic we all have the background info to discuss.

The title is sure to catch the attention of one or two members here.

Dan 9 has a 70 weeks (490 days... becomes day-for-year 490 years) timeline predicting the coming of Christ.
Then in Mark 1:15 Christ says that the prediction of the first part - the 483 years is fulfilled with the start of His ministry

Mark 1:

9 In those days Jesus came from Nazareth in Galilee and was baptized by John in the Jordan. 10 And immediately coming up out of the water, He saw the heavens opening, and the Spirit, like a dove, descending upon Him; 11 and a voice came from the heavens: “You are My beloved Son; in You I am well pleased.”​

12 And immediately the Spirit *brought Him out into the wilderness. 13 And He was in the wilderness for forty days, being tempted by Satan; and He was with the wild animals, and the angels were serving Him.​

14 Now after John was taken into custody, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of God, 15 and saying, “The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the gospel.”​

​

16 As He was going along the Sea of Galilee, He saw Simon and Andrew, the brother of Simon, casting a net in the sea; for they were fishermen. 17 And Jesus said to them, “Follow Me, and I will have you become fishers of people.” 18 Immediately they left their nets and followed Him.​

In Mark 1 we see the start of Jesus' ministry and it includes the message that the Dan 9 timeline predicting the exact year of Christ's first coming - had been fulfilled.

Dan 9:
24 “Seventy weeks have been decreed for your people and your holy city, to finish the wrongdoing, to make an end of sin, to make atonement for guilt, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy, and to anoint the Most Holy Place. 25 So you are to know and understand that from the issuing of a decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem, until Messiah the Prince, there will be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks; it will be built again, with streets and moat, even in times of distress. 26 Then after the sixty-two weeks, the Messiah will be cut off and have nothing

We find information about that decree referenced above in Dan 9 --- in Ezra 6,7 and in Ezra 9k

Ezra 6 tells us it is a 3-part decree with Cyrus, Darius and Artaxerxes all contributing to it.
14 And the elders of the Jews were successful in building through the prophecy of Haggai the prophet and Zechariah the son of Iddo. And they finished building following the command of the God of Israel and the decree of Cyrus, Darius, and Artaxerxes king of Persia.

Ezra 7: 8-9 --- in 457 B.C.

8 And he ( Ezra the priest) came to Jerusalem in the fifth month, which was in the seventh year of the king.(Artaxerxes king of Persia) 9 For on the first day of the first month he began to go up from Babylon; and on the first of the fifth month he came to Jerusalem, because the good hand of his God was upon him. 10 For Ezra had firmly resolved to study the Law of the Lord and to practice it, and to teach His statutes and ordinances in Israel.​

11 Now this is the copy of the letter which King Artaxerxes gave to Ezra the priest, the scribe, learned in the words of the commandments of the Lord and His statutes to Israel: 12 “Artaxerxes, king of kings, to Ezra the priest,​

(vs 15-23 treasures, gifts, gold to be sent with Ezra)


Ezra's prayer

Ezra 9:9 For we are slaves; yet in our bondage our God has not abandoned us, but has extended favor to us in the sight of the kings of Persia, to give us reviving to erect the house of our God, to restore its ruins, and to give us a wall in Judah and Jerusalem​

======================

Dan 9 is given as an "explanation" to the vision of Dan 8... because among other things - Dan 8 has no start date and Dan 9 gives an exact start date.
Dan 9 is the only OT prophecy with a timeline pointing to the start date of the Messiah's ministry.

So then the 490 years of Dan 9 starts in 457 B.C.
And the 2300 years (day for year) in Dan 8 start in 457 B.C.

===========================

My title is - "Adventists affirm Mark 1:15 regarding Dan 9 and the 70 weeks prophecy and Investigative Judgment start in 1844"

But I can see that the Dan 7 "investigative judgment start in 1844" topic is too much for one thread so I am making it into its own thread.

Great points! Thanks for putting this together.

 

[tall73]

BobRyan said:
There is no "judgment on beasts" statement in Dan 7 regarding that court room

Tall73 said:
Sure there is. The four beasts, and the little horn from the fourth beast are judged.

But Dan 7:21-22 does not say that the wicked oppress the saints "until judgment is passed against the wicked".

The judgment in favor of the saints is given by the same court that finds against the fourth beast and little horn. God is judging between the two and delivers His people:

Daniel 7:25 He shall speak pompous words against the Most High,
Shall persecute the saints of the Most High,
And shall intend to change times and law.
Then the saints shall be given into his hand
For a time and times and half a time.
26 ‘But the court shall be seated,
And they shall take away his dominion,
To consume and destroy it forever.

The court takes away his dominion. That is an action of the court, a judgment.

The finding in favor of the saints is a judgment by the same court:

21 “I was watching; and the same horn was making war against the saints, and prevailing against them, 22 until the Ancient of Days came, and a judgment was made in favor of the saints of the Most High

The judgment for the saints is a judgment against the little horn. Because the little horn was persecuting the saints.

And the court stripped the authority of the other beasts:

Daniel 7: 11“I watched then because of the sound of the pompous words which the horn was speaking; I watched till the beast was slain, and its body destroyed and given to the burning flame. 12 As for the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away, yet their lives were prolonged for a season and a time.

There is no description of individual judgment. The saints are called the saints throughout, even prior to the outset of the judgment.

You keep trying to get that idea inserted into Dan 7:21-22

I keep pointing out that there are verses which describe the action of the court besides just verse 21 and 22, while not disagreeing with what is said in vs. 21 and 22.

Then the saints shall be given into his hand
For a time and times and half a time.
26 ‘But the court shall be seated,
And they shall take away his dominion

That is an action of the court.

12 As for the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away, yet their lives were prolonged for a season and a time.

That was also an action of the court.

The court ruled in favor of the saints, and against the beasts and little horn power.

But it does not say anything about judgment on individual saints, or trying to discern who is a saint. The saints are called saints throughout.

The death of the wicked only takes place once judgment is passed in favor of the saints.

The wicked are also judged by the court. And that does not match up with the details of the Adventist IJ. Ellen White says it is only on the professed people of God. But the Babylonians, Medes and Persians, Greecians and Romans were not all professed people of God.


tall73 said:
There is nothing said about the details of each saint.

until you read vs 9-10 where they are being judged out of the details recorded into the books of record.

Rev 20 describes this concept of "judgment out of books of record" -- this way


Rev 20:21 "... and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds."

First I will point out that you earlier said the following:

(the idea that heaven was not aware that wicked-are-wicked is hard to establish)

Yet now you acknowledge that the books are used to judge the wicked as well. Why? Were they not all aware? Of course, the text identified the saints, and identified the beasts. And the heavenly universe would also be aware to some degree of who the wicked were at the judgment. But the books of record still provide evidence.

And nations (Adventists acknowledge the beasts represent nations) were judged in the judgment you reference in Daniel 7, from the books:

Daniel 7: 11“I watched then because of the sound of the pompous words which the horn was speaking; I watched till the beast was slain, and its body destroyed and given to the burning flame. 12 As for the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away, yet their lives were prolonged for a season and a time.

Daniel 7:25 He shall speak pompous words against the Most High,
Shall persecute the saints of the Most High,
And shall intend to change times and law.
Then the saints shall be given into his hand
For a time and times and half a time.
26
‘But the court shall be seated,
And they shall take away his dominion,
To consume and destroy it forever.

And this does not match up with the IJ judgment on only the professed people of God, as the Babylonians, Medes and Persians, Greecians and Romans were not all professed people of God.

God judges nations as well as individuals, and we see clearly in Daniel 7 that the beasts had their dominion removed by the court.

The books being used in the judgment against nations should not be surprising, given the context. The entire first part of the chapter was also recounting the "works" of these nations.

But you mentioning Rev. 20 also makes the point quite clearly that Daniel 7 does NOT show judgment on individual cases. You had to import language from a later judgment that did, because the judgment in Daniel 7 does not. Daniel 7 says noting about individual cases, seeing whether someone is a saint, or anything of the sort. Judgment was in favor of the saints, and against the beasts and the little horn.

This text in Revelation 20 DOES show individual judgment, and spells out the basis. But it also happens after the second coming.

One final note on books in the judgment, if the court needed all the evidence to see whether a professed believer of God was really one, wouldn't they also need evidence about who was a professed believer of God in the first place? The Adventist IJ seems to skip a step. But of course the entire notion of the Adventist IJ is unnecessary anyway. Because the Bible says that the secrets of men's hearts will be revealed AT Jesus coming. And it contains clear texts describing that:


1Corinthians 4:5 Therefore do not pronounce judgment before the time, before the Lord comes, who will bring to light the things now hidden in darkness and will disclose the purposes of the heart. Then each one will receive his commendation from God.

Judgment is when the Lord comes, who will bring to light the things now hidden, and disclose the purposes of the heart. AND at that time each receives commendation.

Romans 14 10b For we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. 11 For it is written: “As I live, says the Lord, Every knee shall bow to Me, And every tongue shall confess to God.” 12 So then each of us shall give account of himself to God.

We will stand before the judgment seat, not be absent as in the Adventist IJ. We kneel, bow, confess, and give an account, which cannot happen in the IJ, because per Ellen White we won't even know when our case comes up or when the whole judgment is finished until it is too late.

2 Corinthians 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.

WE appear before the judgment seat of Christ, and not just in spirit, because we RECEIVE according to what we have done.

Matthew 25:31 “When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. 33 And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. 34 Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 35 for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in; 36 I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.’ 37 “Then the righteous will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You drink? 38 When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You? 39 Or when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’ 40 And the King will answer and say to them, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.’ 41 “Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: 42 for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; 43 I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.’44 “Then they also will answer [d]Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?’ 45 Then He will answer them, saying, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ 46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

Here all are brought before His throne, some object, but He points to their record. This is a direct reference to the throne of judgment, and it is in person, not like the Adventist IJ.

Matthew 25:14 “For the kingdom of heaven is like a man traveling to a far country, who called his own servants and delivered his goods to them. 15 And to one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one, to each according to his own ability; and immediately he went on a journey. 16 Then he who had received the five talents went and traded with them, and made another five talents. 17 And likewise he who had received two gained two more also. 18 But he who had received one went and dug in the ground, and hid his lord’s money. 19 After a long time the lord of those servants came and settled accounts with them.
20 “So he who had received five talents came and brought five other talents, saying, ‘Lord, you delivered to me five talents; look, I have gained five more talents besides them.’ 21 His lord said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant; you were faithful over a few things, I will make you ruler over many things. Enter into the joy of your lord.’ 22 He also who had received two talents came and said, ‘Lord, you delivered to me two talents; look, I have gained two more talents besides them.’ 23 His lord said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant; you have been faithful over a few things, I will make you ruler over many things. Enter into the joy of your lord.’
24 “Then he who had received the one talent came and said, ‘Lord, I knew you to be a hard man, reaping where you have not sown, and gathering where you have not scattered seed. 25 And I was afraid, and went and hid your talent in the ground. Look, there you have what is yours.’ 26 “But his lord answered and said to him, ‘You wicked and lazy servant, you knew that I reap where I have not sown, and gather where I have not scattered seed. 27 So you ought to have deposited my money with the bankers, and at my coming I would have received back my own with interest. 28 So take the talent from him, and give it to him who has ten talents.

When the Lord returns He will examine His servants. They are judged before Him.

Matthew 7:21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

Here you say this answers to the Adventist IJ, but it does not. In the Adventist IJ you wouldn't even know your name was coming up. But here they list what they have done in His name, give an account, and He responds.

 

[tall73]

indeed there are - and the thread on Dan 7 that you are not posting on (choosing this Mark 1:15 and Dan 9 thread instead)

Bob, you made this thread on multiple topics from the beginning, including aspects of the sanctuary message beyond just the 70 weeks. And in addition to that you were the first to specifically initiate the discussion of Daniel 7 in relation to those topics in post 23:

You may have later regretted that. But that does not mean we have to go post in the two new threads you made when we were already discussing Daniel 7 and the rest in this thread, at your instigation. Perhaps you should make your initial topics more limited if you want to discuss only one aspect.

I already indicated my agreement with the 70 weeks. And we are discussing other aspects you brought up.