Do sacraments save?

[RileyG]

Come on, that is just tradition. I'm pretty sure John the Baptist didn't baptise Jesus by sprinkling on his head.

Sprinkling was accepted in the early Church. Baptism and how it was performed changed over time.

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

Sprinkling was accepted in the early Church. Baptism and how it was performed changed over time.

Alright, if you say so, boss.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

If you do sprinkling, that's just sprinkling

So you say, where is the scripture to back up your claim?

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

If you do sprinkling, that's just sprinkling, not baptizing, what passage of scripture do you need for that?

A passage that says what you claim; namely, that pouring water on the head of the person being baptised is NOT baptism. You assert that, what scripture do you have to back you? I can show you a scripture where the baptised were dry, except perhaps for a few drops that may have fallen upon them.

 

[concretecamper]

unlike other denominations, Catholics don't see "the Church" as being a universal body of Christ, they only see the institutionalized Roman Catholic Church, and everyone else is not part of the Church, with varying degrees of believing everyone outside of the RCC is hellbound heretics

Thank you for you incorrect statement about what the Church teaches.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

unlike other denominations, Catholics don't see "the Church" as being a universal body of Christ, they only see the institutionalized Roman Catholic Church, and everyone else is not part of the Church, with varying degrees of believing everyone outside of the RCC is hellbound heretics

What is easier? To ask a Catholic what he believes or to make false claims about what he believes and then spend weeks debating to support the false claims?

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

A passage that says what you claim; namely, that pouring water on the head of the person being baptised is NOT baptism. You assert that, what scripture do you have to back you? I can show you a scripture where the baptised were dry, except perhaps for a few drops that may have fallen upon them.

You’re entitled to your own opinion but not your own fact. Russian Orthodox knew baptism means immersion, not sprinkling, and they practiced baptism by immersion.

 

[Jamdoc]

What is easier? To ask a Catholic what he believes or to make false claims about what he believes and then spend weeks debating to support the false claims?

It is what I have gotten from Catholics, again, varying degrees, but they all essentially agree there's no salvation outside of the RCC

 

[NewLifeInChristJesus]

I never had to prove or have permission to call myself a Christian to any Catholics

I didn't say anything like that. I was objecting to this sentence in their document: "All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians."

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

You’re entitled to your own opinion but not your own fact. Russian Orthodox knew baptism means immersion, not sprinkling, and they practiced baptism by immersion.

Baptism means "immersion" does it? Not "submersion"?

Nevertheless there is a passage that says people were baptised and those people didn't get wet, except perhaps a few drops fall on them.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

It is what I have gotten from Catholics, again, varying degrees, but they all essentially agree there's no salvation outside of the RCC

Why not try asking a Catholic here on CF; see what you get.

 

[Valletta]

I have it open now and have read through some of it. Much of it is hard to undertand. But the parts that are easier to understand are deeply troubling.

Lumen Gentium 15: "The Church recognizes that in many ways she is linked with those who, being baptized, are honored with the name of Christian, though they do not profess the faith in its entirety or do not preserve unity of communion with the successor of Peter."​

Lumen Gentium 15

It’s nice to take a weekend off from blogging, but let’s get back to one of Vatican II’s hallmark documents. Where we left off Friday, LG 14 spoke of the issue of membership of ca…

catholicsensibility.wordpress.com

 

[Jamdoc]

Why not try asking a Catholic here on CF; see what you get.

okay point blank, is a person saved outside of the RCC, not "they can be saved if they get baptised in the RCC or Eastern Orthodox Church as they were also founded by an apostle and have apostolic succession" but is a person justified by faith in Christ alone?

 

[Valletta]

okay point blank, is a person saved outside of the RCC, not "they can be saved if they get baptised in the RCC or Eastern Orthodox Church as they were also founded by an apostle and have apostolic succession" but is a person justified by faith in Christ alone?

We are all saved through the sacrament of Baptism. That goes for baptized Catholics or Eastern Orthodox or Protestants.

John 3:5 Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. RSVCE

 

[Valletta]

Alright, if you say so, boss.

The Didache describes the practices of Baptism in the first century:

Chapter 7. Concerning Baptism​

And concerning baptism, baptize this way: Having first said all these things, baptize into the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, Matthew 28:19 in living water. But if you have not living water, baptize into other water; and if you can not in cold, in warm. But if you have not either, pour out water thrice upon the head into the name of Father and Son and Holy Spirit. But before the baptism let the baptizer fast, and the baptized, and whatever others can; but you shall order the baptized to fast one or two days before.

CHURCH FATHERS: The Didache

Featuring the Church Fathers, Catholic Encyclopedia, Summa Theologica and more.

www.newadvent.org

 

[concretecamper]

"All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians."

St Paul says the same thing

 

[Jamdoc]

St Paul says the same thing

St Paul also says

9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

and

31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

 

[NewLifeInChristJesus]

The Didache describes the practices of Baptism in the first century:

Chapter 7. Concerning Baptism​

And concerning baptism, baptize this way: Having first said all these things, baptize into the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, Matthew 28:19 in living water. But if you have not living water, baptize into other water; and if you can not in cold, in warm. But if you have not either, pour out water thrice upon the head into the name of Father and Son and Holy Spirit. But before the baptism let the baptizer fast, and the baptized, and whatever others can; but you shall order the baptized to fast one or two days before.

CHURCH FATHERS: The Didache

Featuring the Church Fathers, Catholic Encyclopedia, Summa Theologica and more.

www.newadvent.org

I suppose all churches have the right to baptize people in the manner they decide is best for themselves. I see nothing in what you posted indicating any saving power of baptism or any negative consequences for doing it the wrong way.

 

[NewLifeInChristJesus]

St Paul says the same thing

No he didn't. This underlined phrase has many possible meanings: "All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ"; none of which are found in Paul's writings in the New Testament. Paul mentioned "justified by faith in Christ". He never mentioned "justified by faith in baptism". He never mentioned "justified by faith in Christ in baptism (or through baptism)". But he did say, "For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel, not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of no effect." (1 Co 1:17)

Concerning proper order of baptism, baptism is appropriate only for those who have already been saved (i.e., they have already received the Holy Spirit into their hearts):

Then Peter answered, “Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?” And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. (Ac 10:46–48)​

 

[ViaCrucis]

If you do sprinkling, that's just sprinkling, not baptizing, what passage of scripture do you need for that?

My Bible doesn't say that baptism can't be by pouring or sprinkling. My Bible doesn't say that only being dunked in water is valid for baptism.

Perhaps you have a passage of Scripture in your Bible that isn't in the rest of our Bibles?

-CryptoLutheran