Justification by Faith

[Strong in Him]

Jesus never said once a person becomes one of His sheep that they are always one of His sheep.

True, because we have the free will and choice to walk away.
Though, as I said, I can't believe that anyone who truly knows and has received God's love would want to do that.

I could have done that in the years when going to church was just a duty for me. I was sincere about wanting to serve God, (though my primary underlying motive was fear), but could easily have given up, fallen into sin or adopted a sinful lifestyle. In fact, there was a time when I was almost tempted to do that - so that I could have a dramatic conversion testimony to share with others.
But now that I have been filled with, and touched by, his love, received his many blessings, including healing and know that I am his child? No chance.

 

[Strong in Him]

Personally my interpretation of that verse is that the writer is saying that it is impossible for us to bring such a person back to repentance, meaning that it would be impossible for us to present any evidence that would persuade them to repent if they had already received the Holy Spirit who is much more convincing than we could ever be. I do however believe that they are still capable of repentance thru the conviction of the Holy Spirit.

Maybe the writer meant that he thought it would be extremely unlikely and difficult for the person to repent, if their hearts had been hardened.

I do agree though that if a person had been in that position - had truly known Christ and then publicly denied/shamed/sinned against him - IF they were to genuinely humble themselves in repentance, God would still forgive and save.

 

[Strong in Him]

“You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭5‬:‭4‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Apparently people can be severed from Christ and fall from grace.

If people had accepted Christ but were still saying that keeping the law saved and justified them, then they were cut off from Christ; yes. Verse 4 comes after verse 2 which says "if you let yourselves be circumcised, Christ is of no value to you at all.
It seems that some people were teaching that believers had to be circumcised and keep the law to "complete" their salvation; that Christ alone wasn't enough. They, who were teaching that, were cut off from Christ; and anyone who believed it, too. It was that false teaching that was severing them from God.

Nothing, in earth, heaven or under the earth, can separate us from God's love - and nothing can snatch us from our Father's hands.

 

[Strong in Him]

So what is your interpretation on 1 John 1:8?

I don't need to interpret it, it means what it says.
If we say that we have no sin/do not sin, we're lying.

What about Romans 7:14-24?

Means what it says .
Paul is talking about the law - i.e. the Jewish, Mosaic law - and his relationship with it. I notice you didn't quote the last verse of the chapter; thanks be to God who rescues me from my body which leads to death - my body which is a slave to sin.

What is your view on the Christian who is backslidden into a lifestyle of sin?

That the Lord knows the reason for that backsliding; that I am not to judge, because it's possible that circumstances may lead me to take my eyes off Jesus too, and that they need compassion and prayer, not condemnation.

Was the prodigal son saved while living it up with prostitutes?

Was he "saved" at all?
No idea - you'll have to ask him one day.

Then how you live does not really matter.

Of course it does.
But it can't add to, or complete, someone's salvation.

One can be a murderer, fornicator, and or a thief with this kind of false teaching.

No, because if a person is saved - born again - they are a new creation, 2 Corinthians 5:17, have a new heart and serve a new master.
Someone who loves God will not plan to go out and kill, or sin against him.

This is the common excuse, but when push comes to shove, when I talked to believer who hold to your view, they also admit that a Christian can sin and still be saved on some level.

Not an excuse; a fact.

Christians still live in a fallen world; we may sin through ignorance, weakness or our own deliberate fault. That is why we confess our sins, on Sunday or at any other time.
That is different from a Christian deliberately planning to sin - hurt God, mess up.
That would be like me getting out of bed and, instead of saying "Thank you for another new day, Lord", thinking "what sin can I commit today? Oh, I know, I haven't tried adultery yet; let's give that a go." Or, "I wonder if it's possible to murder/blaspheme/steal/lead others astray and still be forgiven? I think I might test that."

Meaning, if a Christian has a lustful thought, are they still saved?

Of course.
Are you saying they cease to be saved until they repent? In that case we will all go through our Christian lives being saved/not being saved/being saved again/falling from grace etc etc. We will never know if we are truly saved and will be fearful, lacking in assurance and not able to trust until the day we die - and even then it will be sheer luck if we end up saved and in heaven.
John wrote his first letter so that Christians would KNOW - go and count up how many times he uses that word.

What if a Christian has a temporary moment of unforgiveness? Are they saved while in a state of unforgiveness? What if they died while not forgiving somebody? Are they still saved?

Yes.
Christians are not perfect in thought, word and deed 24/7 - anyone who says they are and that they have no din, is lying/deceiving themselves, 1 John 1:8.

God so loved the world, that does not mean the entire world is saved.

No, it doesn't.
Not everyone in the world will come to Jesus and trust HIM for their salvation. They will trust in their good deeds, good life or ability to take care of themselves.

Christians are first saved by God’s grace, and they don’t have to do a work to get saved, but once they have been saved by God’s grace, they do have to obey God to enter the Kingdom.

No one can enter the Kingdom of God unless they are born again, John 3:3.
Being born again means trusting Jesus as your Saviour and declaring him to be Lord of your life. No one can call Jesus 'Lord' except by the Holy Spirit, 1 Corinthians 12:3 and if someone does declare him to be Lord, and believe that God raised him from the dead - they are saved, Romans 10:9.
So salvation involves the Holy Spirit, who draws us to Jesus so that we might be forgiven. The Spirit renews us, makes us new creations and assures us that we are children of God. As we have a new birth, a new heart and a new Father, and have been saved from our old, sinful flesh which puts us first and which leads to death - we are born again.
Anyone who is born again and declares Jesus to be Lord, and King, is in the kingdom.

If not, then how do you explain the Parable of the Talents? The unprofitable servant is cast into outer darkness where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth.

The unfaithful servant didn't use what he master had given to him - and his assessment of his master was that he was a hard, unjust man. He didn't know his master.

Again, this is misdirection. It does not matter one’s intentions.

Yes, it does.
Or are you saying that if I called you a liar/crook, that would be fine if I then claimed that I didn't mean it?
(Note, that is an example; it is NOT what I am saying, so please don't accuse me of flaming.)

If you take away the true punishment of sin, then it is inevitable one will turn God’s grace into a license to sin on some level or not be concerned with being fruitful or to warn others properly

I really feel that you are underestimating new believers and Christians who love Christ.
Have you never read accounts of people who've accepted Christ - maybe after involvement in the occult, drugs, crime etc? Have you never read, or heard their testimonies, of the joy they may feel - a lightness from sin, the warmth of God's love? That their desires for their old lifestyles are completely taken away? That they become new people, look happier, act differently, love people in a new way?
Do you believe, or KNOW, that new believers who have been given new hearts, immediately say "I have been saved - I can sin as much as I like"?

That's what the Corinthians believed - that they had been saved and could live as they wanted. Paul did not agree with them.

Luke 18:9-14 is clearly a great point in Scripture where a person can be saved by God’s grace. Sure, a person can admit they are a sinner (Past tense), and move on and seek to obey God, but they cannot say they are a sinner present tense in the sense that they will never change or they will just go out and do the same evil thing tomorrow because they cannot help it.

Nor can they ever say "I am saved now, I am not a sinner, will never sin again nor need to repent."

As long as they are willing to turn from their sins this would be a… “yes.”

So you think it's conditional? That God only hears the prayers of those who are willing to repent?
What about the Ninevites, who repented when Jonah preached but several years later were living in sin again?
What about the Israelites themselves who spent their lives turning away from God, being warned, being punished, crying out to God, being restored, and walking with God again - until the next time?
They SAID they were willing to turn from their sins, so God forgave them; clearly though, they weren't.

Again, If one believes salvation is not conditional as the Bible teaches or they think they can sin and still be saved on some smaller level, then following Jesus is not really in view. One is only fooling themselves that they are following Jesus in such a case because one falsely thinks salvation is not based on any kind of performance at any point in their Christian life.

I am saved - I KNOW I am saved.
I am not living a perfect life and cannot say, 100%, that I will NEVER be tempted or sin through weakness.
I CAN say, 100%, that nothing will ever separate me from God's love.

We are living in the last days. Not many are truly interested in following Jesus like it was in the early church.
There is no fear of God among many today.

That may be so, but it does not answer my question.
I asked you how many Spirit filled Christians you know who have deliberately refused to obey, and follow, Jesus?

So this proves salvation is conditional.

No, it doesn't.

Do you believe a Christian can deny Jesus and still be saved?

It's not for me to judge.
Someone might deny Jesus because they are still a child and want to fit in with their friends, or may deny they are a Christian so they can get a promotion, or because they are afraid. That is a sin, and showing unfaithfulness - it does not mean they were never saved from sin in the first place.
Supposing someone with dementia was to deny Jesus - are you saying that would prove they were never saved?

 

[BNR32FAN]

Correct. One cannot be severed from Christ unless they were in fact joined with Christ.

Hebrews 10:26-32​

(26) For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,​

(27) But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.​

(28) He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:​

(29) Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?​

(30) For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.​

(31) It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.​

(32) But call to remembrance the former days, in which, after ye were illuminated, ye endured a great fight of afflictions;​

This is not referring to make-believe Christians but people who have been sanctified by the blood of the covenant.

Amen and I don’t think it’s a matter of not knowing this but a matter of refusing to accept it. Just like throughout the entire epistle Paul refers to the brethren of the church as “you” yet some in this thread think that in Galatians 5:4 Paul is referring to the Judaizers as “you” even tho he says “you were running so well”. The evidence is obvious and overwhelming and yet some just refuse to accept what is plainly written in the scriptures. This is when the scriptures take a back seat to their doctrines. Instead of the scriptures defining their doctrines, their doctrines are defining the scriptures. I think it’s sad when people put their own pride above the scriptures because they just can’t humble themselves and admit when they’re wrong. There’s only one truth and it is not subjective to personal preference or interpretation.

 

[Danthemailman]

If people had accepted Christ but were still saying that keeping the law saved and justified them, then they were cut off from Christ; yes. Verse 4 comes after verse 2 which says "if you let yourselves be circumcised, Christ is of no value to you at all.
It seems that some people were teaching that believers had to be circumcised and keep the law to "complete" their salvation; that Christ alone wasn't enough. They, who were teaching that, were cut off from Christ; and anyone who believed it, too. It was that false teaching that was severing them from God.

Nothing, in earth, heaven or under the earth, can separate us from God's love - and nothing can snatch us from our Father's hands.

The present tense of the word "justified" implies that these Galatians were contemplating justification by the law. They were getting sidetracked by legalistic teachers. "You who are trying to be justified by the law have fallen away from grace," but had they fully come to that place yet?

Galatians 3:3 reads: Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh? The middle voice implies "making yourselves perfect" by means of self effort. The present tense indicates that the action is in progress and that there is still time to correct the error.

If these Galatians lost their salvation and it was a done deal, then Paul would have simply said you "lost your salvation" and I'm done with you. Instead, in verse 10, Paul said - I have confidence in you, in the Lord, that you will have no other mind; but he who troubles you shall bear his judgment, whoever he is. Paul would not have confidence in these Galatians if they lost their salvation and it's all over for them. In verse 12, Paul uses hyperbole, as for those agitators, I wish they would go the whole way and emasculate themselves!

 

[Guojing]

Do you believe a Christian can deny Jesus and still be saved?

Since you asked this, if an unbeliever deny Satan, is he still unsaved?

 

[BrotherJJ]

Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words [ A-1,Noun,G1347, dikaiosis ] - Justification, Justifier, Justify

denotes the act of pronouncing righteous, justification, acquittal;" its precise meaning is determined by that of the verb dikaioo, "to justify" (See B); it is used twice in the Ep. to the Romans, and there alone in the NT, signifying the establishment of a person as just by acquittal from guilt. In Romans 4:25 the phrase "for our justification," is, lit., "because of our justification" (parallel to the preceding clause "for our trespasses," i.e., because of trespasses committed), and means, not with a view to our "justification," but because all that was necessary on God's part for our "justification" had been effected in the death of Christ. On this account He was raised from the dead. The propitiation being perfect and complete, His resurrection was the confirmatory counterpart. In Romans 5:18, "justification of life" means "justification which results in life" (cp. Romans 5:21). That God "justifies" the believing sinner on the ground of Christ's death, involves His free gift of life. On the distinction between dikaiosis and dikaioma, See below. In the Sept., Leviticus 24:22.

(PARSING VINE'S Context Greek word dikaiosis N G1347: To justify denotes the act of Gods pronouncement of the believer being made righteous. Justified & acquitted from ALL sin. All that was necessary for our "justification" was accomplished in the death of Christ. The proof? He was raised from the dead. His sinless perpetually cleansing God Blood. Is the ultimate propitiation/sacrifice/sin atonement perfect & complete.

In Romans 5:18, "justification of life" means "justification which results in life" (cp. Romans 5:21). The believer is "justified" on the grounds of Faith placed in Christ's death & resurrection. He receives Christ' FREE GIFT of life eternal. God's justification pronouncement is FOREVER. NOT until the next time you sin!

ATTENTION eternal security deniers that make salvation about how great you & your SELF sinless perfection works are (they aren't). Jesus ONCE for ALL TIME (Heb 10:10) ULTIMATE propitiation/sacrifice/sin atonement. Fulfilled the laws requirement (you can't) for sin redemption! He did ALL the work (get over yourselves)! He deserves ALL the praise, glory & honor! All we need to do is put our FAITH in HIM, what HE endured & accomplished! He'll do the rest!)

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I don't need to interpret it, it means what it says.
If we say that we have no sin/do not sin, we're lying.

You said, I quote:

”But wanting to return, calling out to God, ​

regretting your previous actions; that's different.” ​

~ Quote by: Strong in Him.​

Regretting one’s actions would be a mirage or an illusion because one is not really changing one’s actions to begin with if one believes 1 John 1:8 is an endorsement to be a slave to sin in some way. Jesus said a slave to sin will not abide in the house forever in John 8:34-35 (Then read Matthew 13:41-42). So you are contradicting yourself. Either you are for upholding a standard of holy living or you are not for doing that. God’s grace teaches us to deny ungodliness, and that we should live righteously and godly in this present world (Titus 2:11-12). But seeing you take the “sin and still be saved viewpoint” on 1 John 1:8, I must conclude you are not for holy living as the Bible teaches it. Jesus warned that looking upon a woman in lust can cause one to be cast bodily into hellfire (See: Matthew 5:28-30).

As for explaining 1 John 1:8:

What is helpful in understanding 1 John 1:8 is looking at its immediate context. 1 John 1:10 says if we say we have not sinned. 1 John 1:10 switches gears from 1 John 1:8 in regards to time; John talks about the declaration on committing sin in verse 8 (which is present tense) to a declaration on committing sin being a past declaration (with verse 10). Verse 10 is saying there are people who said they have not sinned (past tense). This is clearly a gnostic belief. Why? Well, most believers today hold to the idea that they have sinned as a part of their old life before coming to Christ (Regardless of whether they are “OSAS,” a “Sin and still be saved” type believer, or a “Conditional Salvationist”). So this clearly is a “gnostic belief” that John was warning the brethren about (See 1 John 2:26). 1 John 1:8 is a present declaration of sin. It is saying if we say we have no sin when we do sin (present tense). This has to be the interpretative understanding of this verse because 1 John 2:4 says if we say we know Him and do not keep His commandments we are a liar and the truth is not in us. The OSAS's interpretation on 1 John 1:8 does not work because it conflicts with a normal reading on 1 John 2:3-4. You cannot always be in sin (breaking God's commands) as a part of 1 John 1:8 and yet also fulfill 1 John 2:3 that says we can have an assurance of knowing Him if we keep His commandments. Especially when 1 John 2:4 says we are a liar and the truth is not in us if we break his commandments. In other words, if the OSAS interpretation on 1 John 1:8 was true, then I would be damned if I do by obeying God's commands (1 John 1:8) and yet I would be damned if I don't by not obeying God's commands (1 John 2:4).

In fact, the New English Translation says this for 1 John 1:8,

"If we say we do not bear the guilt of sin,​

we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us."​

(1 John 1:8 NET).​

In other words, this verse is saying that if a person sins and says they do not bear the guilt of sin (in the sense that they will not have to face any wrath or Judgment from God over their sin) then they would be deceiving themselves and the truth would not be in them. This is exactly what the Eternal Security proposes. They are saying that they do not bear the guilt of any sin (destruction of their soul and body in hell fire) if they do sin because they believe their future sins are paid for by Jesus. They are saying, they do not bear the guilt or the punishment of sin at the final Judgment because of their belief on Jesus. In short, 1 John 1:8 is a denial of the existence of sin on some level. “If we say we have no sin (in the sense that it does not exist) we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.” (1 John 1:8). Christian Scientists think sin is an illusion and does not exist at all. So this verse would apply to them. Eternal Security Proponents and those who deny that “Sin Can Separate a Believer from God” deny the existence of sin partially. They believe sin exists physically but they do not believe sin exists for them on a spiritual level because Jesus has forgiven them of all their sin by their belief on Jesus. In fact, to see just how silly your argument actually is for 1 John 1:8, you would have to believe that you are sinning right now at this very moment in order for such a verse to be true because 1 John 1:8 is speaking in the present tense.

John prescribes that we do not think that sin is an illusion, and we are automatically saved, but John is telling us to "sin not" and go to our advocate Jesus Christ (1 John 2:1), and confess our sins so as to be forgiven of sin and to be cleansed of all unrighteousness (1 John 1:9). How can you confess and be forgiven of sin if all your future sin is paid for? It makes no sense.

You can say that John is talking about a break of fellowship by one's sins and not a loss of salvation, but that would not be consistent with Scripture. 1 John 5:12 says he that has the Son has life, and he that does not have the Son does not have life. But of course, I am sure you see it differently.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

@Strong in Him:

These verses speak against the popular sin and still be saved belief today.

Proverbs 30:20 says:
“Such is the way of an adulterous woman; she eateth, and wipeth her mouth, and saith, I have done no wickedness.”

Isaiah 5:20
“Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!”

Malachi 2:17 AMP
“You have wearied the LORD with your words. But you say, “In what way have we wearied Him?” In that you say, “Everyone who does evil is good in the sight of the LORD, and He delights in them,” or [by asking], “Where is the God of justice?”

Job 17:12 NASB
“They make night into day, saying, ‘The light is near,’ in the presence of darkness.”

Matthew 6:22-23 EXB
The eye is a light [the lamp] for the body. If your eyes are good [healthy; clear], your whole body will be full of light. But if your eyes are evil [unhealthy; bad], your whole body will be full of darkness. And if the only light you have [or light you think you have; light in you] is really darkness, then you have the worst darkness [how great that darkness is!].

2 Timothy 3:1-9
“This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come. For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good, Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God; Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away. For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts, Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth. Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith. But they shall proceed no further: for their folly shall be manifest unto all men, as theirs also was.”

Jeremiah 23:1
“Woe be unto the pastors that destroy and scatter the sheep of my pasture! saith the LORD.”

Jeremiah 23:21-23
“I have not sent these prophets, yet they ran: I have not spoken to them, yet they prophesied. But if they had stood in my counsel, and had caused my people to hear my words, then they should have turned them from their evil way, and from the evil of their doings. Am I a God at hand, saith the LORD, and not a God afar off?”

Jude 1:4 NIV
“For certain individuals whose condemnation was written about b long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord.”

Titus 1:16
“They profess that they know God, but by their works they deny him, being abominable, disobedient, and unfit for any good work.”

 

[Bible Highlighter]

@Strong in Him

OSAS (Once Saved Always Saved) or the popular sin and still be saved belief today is sort of like a parent telling their child that there are no consequences to breaking the speed limit on the highway and that a person who just loves their neighbor, country, etcetera is going to just naturally obey the speed limit and they are not going to do anything wrong on the highway. But one day, that child will grow up and learn that they have been lied to when they get pulled over by the police for speeding on the highway. They will realize that there a consequences to one’s wrong actions. Granted, the OSAS crowd believes there Is chastisement of sin, but they do not think their sin will separate them from God ultimately or that their sins can lead them to the furnace of fire. Think. Eve was deceived to disobey God’s command by the deceptions of serpent and what was the result? Spiritual death. The same lie is being pushed today.

Know this truth in the Bible:

Matthew 13:41-42

41 ”The Son of man shall send forth his angels,​

and they shall gather out of his kingdom​

all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;​

42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there​

shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.”​

So the Son of Man (JESUS) will send forth his angels and gather out of HIS KINGDOM all who do iniquity (sin), and they will be cast into the furnace of fire (i.e., the Lake of Fire). This is why Jesus said in John 8:34-35 that the slave to sin (servant to sin - KJB) will not abide in the house forever (i.e., They will not abide in the house of Christ forever seeing they will be cast into the Lake of Fire at the Judgment).

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Since you asked this, if an unbeliever deny Satan, is he still unsaved?

It is written,

”But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies,
and contentions, and strivings about the law;
for they are unprofitable and vain.” (Titus 3:9).

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words [ A-1,Noun,G1347, dikaiosis ] - Justification, Justifier, Justify

denotes the act of pronouncing righteous, justification, acquittal;" its precise meaning is determined by that of the verb dikaioo, "to justify" (See B); it is used twice in the Ep. to the Romans, and there alone in the NT, signifying the establishment of a person as just by acquittal from guilt. In Romans 4:25 the phrase "for our justification," is, lit., "because of our justification" (parallel to the preceding clause "for our trespasses," i.e., because of trespasses committed), and means, not with a view to our "justification," but because all that was necessary on God's part for our "justification" had been effected in the death of Christ. On this account He was raised from the dead. The propitiation being perfect and complete, His resurrection was the confirmatory counterpart. In Romans 5:18, "justification of life" means "justification which results in life" (cp. Romans 5:21). That God "justifies" the believing sinner on the ground of Christ's death, involves His free gift of life. On the distinction between dikaiosis and dikaioma, See below. In the Sept., Leviticus 24:22.

(PARSING VINE'S Context Greek word dikaiosis N G1347: To justify denotes the act of Gods pronouncement of the believer being made righteous. Justified & acquitted from ALL sin. All that was necessary for our "justification" was accomplished in the death of Christ. The proof? He was raised from the dead. His sinless perpetually cleansing God Blood. Is the ultimate propitiation/sacrifice/sin atonement perfect & complete.

In Romans 5:18, "justification of life" means "justification which results in life" (cp. Romans 5:21). The believer is "justified" on the grounds of Faith placed in Christ's death & resurrection. He receives Christ' FREE GIFT of life eternal. God's justification pronouncement is FOREVER. NOT until the next time you sin!

ATTENTION eternal security deniers that make salvation about how great you & your SELF sinless perfection works are (they aren't). Jesus ONCE for ALL TIME (Heb 10:10) ULTIMATE propitiation/sacrifice/sin atonement. Fulfilled the laws requirement (you can't) for sin redemption! He did ALL the work (get over yourselves)! He deserves ALL the praise, glory & honor! All we need to do is put our FAITH in HIM, what HE endured & accomplished! He'll do the rest!)

Well, you are also justified by works, too (Which is a part of your faith).

”Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.” (James 2:24).

In short, James 2:24 refutes the Protestant’s false statement of Sola Fide. Granted, I am not Catholic or Orthodox, etcetera. I just believe the Bible Alone + the Anointing to Understand It. No man made traditions or creeds or added fillers should be added to what the Bible says.

Granted, works of faith are a part of a believer’s Sanctification AFTER they are INITIALLY saved by God’s grace through faith (Which is a process of salvation that is without works) (Ephesians 2:8-9) (Titus 3:5) (Romans 4:3-5).

But make no mistake. Sanctification (living holy by the Spirit0 is also a part of salvation, too (Please see 2 Thessalonians 2:13, Galatians 6:8-9, and Romans 8:13).

 

[Bible Highlighter]

@Strong in Him

As for Romans 7:14-24:

You are correct that Paul is talking about the Jewish or Mosaic Laws (i.e., the 613 Laws of Moses).
But Christians are not under the Laws given to Moses but they are under the Laws of Christ.

Paul says,

”To them that are without law, as without law,​

(being not without law to God,​

but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain​

them that are without law.”​

(1 Corinthians 9:21).​

Anyways, here are…

Eight Reasons Why Paul Spoke as a Pharisee and not as a Christian in Romans 7:14-24:

There are 8 reasons in Scripture that show us that Paul is indeed talking as a Pharisee (recounting his past experience) and he is not talking in the present tense as a Christian in Romans 7:14-24.

#1. In Romans 7:6, Paul says we should serve in newness of the spirit and not the oldness of the letter (Which is the Old Law and not the New Testament Scriptures that were still being formed). We are told to SERVE. How do we serve? Do we just do our own thing? No. We follow God's commands in the New Testament. This talk of the Old Law is the context of verses 14-24.

#2. We are dead to the Law by the body of Jesus Christ (Romans 7:4). Would this be the Old Law or ALL law? 1 John 3:23 is a commandment that says we are to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. This is a New Covenant Law. So obviously we are not dead to this Law or Command. The Scriptures also say, "but now commandeth all men everywhere to repent." (Acts 17:30). Are we dead to this Law? Surely not. Jesus said "repent or perish." (Luke 13:3). Peter told Simon to repent (by way of prayer to God) of his wickedness of trying to pay for the gifts of the Holy Spirit so that he may be forgiven (Acts 8:22). Sin is merely transgression of the Law (1 John 3:4). All this lets us know that men of God can break God's laws and they can be separated from GOD because of it. So surely some kind of Law of God is still in effect and has dire consequences for any person's soul who commits them. For Jesus said that if we do not forgive, we will not be forgiven by the Father (Matthew 6:15). If Jesus was talking to unbelievers, this would not make any sense. They would first need to accept Christ. So the only logical conclusion is that Jesus is talking to believers in Matthew 6:15. You do not forgive (i.e. you sin or break this law of God) and you will not be forgiven or saved. 1 John 3:15 says if you hate your brother you are like a murderer and no murderer has eternal life abiding in them. Again, you hate your brother (which can be a one time act) and you do not have eternal life. It's that simple. Also, Paul condemns circumcision several times. Galatians 5:2 is the biggest verse that condemns circumcision salvationism. Circumcision is an Old Covenant Law and it is not a New Covenant Law. Paul uses the word "law" when he speaks against circumcision. So we have to conclude that Paul is saying we are dead to the Old Covenant Law and not all Law. So again, this talk of the Old Law plays into verses 14-24.

#3. Paul says, "For without the law sin was dead." (Romans 7:8). He also says, "I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died." (Romans 7:9). This type of saying is nonsensical from a present tense reading as an adult Christian. The only way it sort of works is if Paul is referring to himself as a baby who had no knowledge of God's laws yet. But there are two problem with even that interpretation. One, this view does not seem as consistent with the phrase, "For without the law sin was dead" because even though Paul as a baby did not have any knowledge of the Law yet, the rest of the adult world would have the Law and sin would still be alive to them. Second, Paul says, "And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death. For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me." (Romans 7:10-11). Okay, so if Paul grew up and became aware of the Law one day, how could the commandment be ordained to life at this point in his life? The commandment was ordained for life back in the time of the Law of Moses. Also, Paul found that "the commandment" was death unto him and that it slew him. There are no death penalties attached to the commands given to us under the New Testament. Death penalties are only associated with the Laws given to us in the Old Covenant. This is how the Law slew him. For breaking the Old Law could be a loss of his own physical life. So this is talking about the Old Law (and not all Law). So again, this talk of the Old Law plays into verses 14-24.

#4. Paul says, "But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful." (Romans 7:13). Okay. Let's break this down. Paul says, "But sin, that it MIGHT APPEAR SIN, works death in me." (Romans 7:13). Now, how can sin make it appear like it may not be sin? Well, if Jesus was raised and Saul (Paul) was still a Pharisee striving to obey the Old Law when the New Covenant Law was still in effect, the sin that Saul (Paul) was struggling with as a pharisee during that time would not really technically be sin in every case. For if Paul disobeyed certain Old Covenant laws while the New Covenant and it's laws were in effect, then Saul (Paul) is not really breaking any real commandments from God in every case. Hence, why Paul said, "...sin, that it MIGHT APPEAR (as) SIN." (Romans 7:13). The beginning of verse 13 is a foreshadow of what is to come in verses 14-24. Paul is stepping out for a brief moment as speaking as an Israelite living throughout history to speak of his condition as a Pharisee when he says, "...sin, that it might appear sin." In the second half of verse 13, Paul says, that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful." (Romans 7:13). This is saying that when God provided the written Law of Moses to his people, there would be a double accountability to keeping God's laws because they are written for all to see now. So an Old Testament saint would feel exceedingly sinful or guilty for breaking God's law back in the Old Testament times because he had in his possession a written down visual law clearly telling him what is right and wrong. So again, Paul is referring to the Old Law here and not all law. This talk of the Old Law plays into verses 14-24.

#5. Paul says in Romans 7:14 that he is carnal and is sold under sin; And yet in Romans 8:2, Pauls says he is free from sin. So unless Paul is contradicting himself, he is talking from two different perspectives.

#6. In Romans 7:24, Paul asks the question: "O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?" Asking this kind of question as a Christian does not seem consistent with Paul's following statement if he is already delivered thru Jesus Christ as a Christian. If a believer is delivered by Jesus, and is thankful of that fact, there would be no cry to ask any question that says, "Who shall deliver me from this body of death?"

#7. Here is the final nail in the coffin for this argument. Romans 8:3-4 says,
3 "For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." (Romans 8:3-4).

So which Law did God send His Son for so as to condemn sin in the flesh?
It was the Old Covenant Law.
For when Jesus died on the cross, the temple veil was ripped from top to bottom letting us know that the Old Testament laws were no longer valid because the Old Laws on the animal sacrifices and the priesthood were no longer acceptable.
Jesus Christ was now our Passover Lamb.
Jesus Christ was soon be our Heavenly High Priest (after He ascended to His father after His resurrection 3 days later) so He can be our mediator between God the Father and man.

Romans 8:4 says, "That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit."

This is saying that the righteous part or aspect of the Old Law can be fulfilled in us.

Paul says elsewhere,
8 "Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law."
(Romans 13:8-10).

So loving your neighbor is the righteousness of the Old Law!
We fulfill this law by walking after the Spirit and not after the flesh (i.e. sin).

So we see a consistent theme here. The word "law" used in general (with no actual description attached to it) is in reference to the Old Law in Romans 7 and Romans 8. This helps us to understand that Paul is telling us his past experience or life as a Pharisee in struggling to keep the Old Law unsuccessfully because he did not have Jesus Christ yet (in verses 14-24).

#8. In addition, in Romans 8:2, we see the mention of how there are TWO laws. We also learn from this verse that keeping one of these Laws helps us to be set FREE from the other one.

In Romans 8:2, we see:

Law #1. - Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus.​

This is a New Covenant Law that we are still under. What is this Law?​

It is fulfilling the righteousness of the Law (i.e. to love your neighbor - Romans 13:8-10) by walking after the Spirit (See Romans 8:3-4).​

​

Law #2. Sin and Death.​

This is in reference to the Old Covenant Law as a whole (i.e. the 613 Old Testament Commands within the Torah). It is called the Law of Sin and Death because you could physically be put to death by not obeying this Law.​

What is the relationship of these two laws in Romans 8:2?

Keeping the New Law helps us to be free of the Old Law. For there is no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus who WALK not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. (Romans 8:1).


Source used for a small paragraph within this post: Paul is not Talking about Himself: Why I take the "pre-Christian" Reading of Romans 7:14-25

 

[Bible Highlighter]

@Strong in Him

As for Romans 7:25:

Romans 7:25 (KJB) says,

24 “O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?​

25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord.​

So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.”​

The words in orange above is a transition verse (Going from the Old to the New).
The words in red above is dealing with Paul’s condition as a Christian.
The words in blue are another thought that switches back to his struggle as a Pharisee before he was a Christian back in Romans 7:14-24. Also, most Christians today forget Romans 8:1, and Romans 8:13 exist in the next chapter (Which refutes their sin and still be saved interpretation on Romans 7:25).

The NTE clarifies what the KJB says,

"...So then, left to my own self I am enslaved to God’s law with my mind, but to sin’s law with my human flesh." (Romans 7:25 NTE).​

Note: You can click on the verse number to see the NTE translation at Biblegateway.

But Romans 13:14 says,

"But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof."​

Side Note: Plus Romans 8 says,

3 "For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:​

4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.​

5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.​

6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.​

7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.​

8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God."​

Okay so Jesus condemned sin in the flesh. This would obviously be on the cross. But what does that lead to? It leads to the righteousness of the Law (i.e. the righteous aspect or part of the Old Law - i.e. the moral law that is still applicable today by loving our neighbor - See Romans 13:8-10). This righteousness of the Law is accomplished or fulfilled IN US who WALK not after the flesh but AFTER the SPIRIT. Galatians 5:16 says the a similar thing. "This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh." (Galatians 5:16). It then says to be carnally minded is death. This means to be worldly focused or having a mind set on sin or in trying to justify sin. For they that are in the flesh (i.e. their sins) cannot please GOD.

"For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live." (Romans 8:13).

To recap:

In verses 14-24 (Romans 7:14-24):

Paul (Saul) was recounting his personal struggle with keeping the Law as Pharisee. He was trying to obey the Law without having Jesus Christ within his life yet; He did not have Jesus in his life yet as a Pharisee to overcome such sins. For have you never heard of people instantly losing their addiction to drugs, alcohol, gambling, and oher worldly sinful vices when they have first accepted Christ as their Savior?​

In 1st Half of verse 25 (Romans 7:25):

Paul is now speaking as a Christian again and thanking Jesus that he has been delivered from his body of sin and death (i.e. his struggle with sin). For we are told to put on the Lord Jesus Christ so as not to fulfill the lusts of the flesh (Romans 13:14). We are told in 2 Corinthians 7:1 to cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit perfecting holiness in the fear of God. Romans 8:1 says we have to walk after the Spirit and not after the flesh (in Christ Jesus) so as not to be under the Condemnation. If one is constantly struggling with sin, they are clearly not walking after the Spirit. For Galatians 5:16 says, "Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh."​

In 2nd Half of verse 25 (Romans 7:25):

Paul is switching back as a recap of his struggle to keep the Old Law as a Pharisee in Romans 7:14-24. Romans 7:25b says, “…So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.”. So Paul is saying with the mind (i.e., the carnal mind mentioned in Romans 8) he will serve the Law of God (i.e., the 613 Laws of Moses) and thus as a result in his flesh serving the Law of sin.​

​

So no. Romans 7:25 is not teaching you can sin and still be saved. I am sure you can easily misread the King James Bible to get that interpretation but you have to realize that the KJB (while I believe it is 100% accurate) is also written in 1600s English, and it has influenced other translations to say a similar thing.

 

[BrotherJJ]

Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words [ A-2,Noun,G1345, dikaioma ] - Justification, Justifier, Justify

has three distinct meanings, and seems best described comprehensively as "a concrete expression of righteousness;" it is a declaration that a person or thing is righteous, and hence, broadly speaking, it represents the expression and effect of dikaiosis (No. 1). It signifies
(a) "an ordinance," Luke 1:6; Romans 1:32, RV, "ordinance," i.e., what God has declared to be right, referring to His decree of retribution (AV, "judgment"); Romans 2:26, RV, "ordinances of the Law" (i.e., righteous requirements enjoined by the Law); so Romans 8:4, "ordinance of the Law," i.e., collectively, the precepts of the Law, all that it demands as right; in Hebrews 9:1, Hebrews 9:10, ordinances connected with the tabernacle ritual;
(b) "a sentence of acquittal," by which God acquits men of their guilt, on the conditions

(1) of His grace in Christ, through His expiatory sacrifice,

(2) the acceptance of Christ by faith, Romans 5:16;
(c) "a righteous act," Romans 5:18, "(through one) act of righteousness," RV, not the act of "justification," nor the righteous character of Christ (as suggested by the AV: dikaioma does not signify character, as does dikaiosune, righteousness), but the death of Christ, as an act accomplished consistently with God's character and counsels; this is clear as being in antithesis to the "one trespass" in the preceding statement. Some take the word here as meaning a decree of righteousness, as in Romans 5:16; the death of Christ could indeed be regarded as fulfilling such a decree, but as the Apostle's argument proceeds, the word, as is frequently the case, passes from one shade of meaning to another, and here stands not for a decree, but an act; so in Revelation 15:4, RV, "righteous acts" (AV, "judgments"), and Revelation 19:8, "righteous acts (of the saints)" (AV, "righteousness").

(PARSING VINE'S Context Greek word dikaioma N ,G1345:
It has 3 distinct meanings;
(A) An ordinance/law decree, that God has declared, "a concrete expression of righteousness;" Aa declaration of a persons righteousness,

(B) A full sin pardon," by which God acquits men of their guilt, on the conditions:

(1) of His grace in Christ, through His expiatory sacrifice, (2) the acceptance of Christ by faith, Romans 5:16;


(2) Through the acceptance of Christ by faith.(Rom 5:16)

(c) Not the act of justification granted/pronounced by Christ. But, through one act of righteousness done by Christ (Rom 5:18). Christ' death, by one act of righteousness accomplishing the counsel of God. This righteous act supersedes Adams sin. Fulfilling the laws decree/requirement for sin/DEATH. Christ is the Lord our Righteousness. (Jer 23:6 )

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words [ A-2,Noun,G1345, dikaioma ] - Justification, Justifier, Justify

has three distinct meanings, and seems best described comprehensively as "a concrete expression of righteousness;" it is a declaration that a person or thing is righteous, and hence, broadly speaking, it represents the expression and effect of dikaiosis (No. 1). It signifies
(a) "an ordinance," Luke 1:6; Romans 1:32, RV, "ordinance," i.e., what God has declared to be right, referring to His decree of retribution (AV, "judgment"); Romans 2:26, RV, "ordinances of the Law" (i.e., righteous requirements enjoined by the Law); so Romans 8:4, "ordinance of the Law," i.e., collectively, the precepts of the Law, all that it demands as right; in Hebrews 9:1, Hebrews 9:10, ordinances connected with the tabernacle ritual;
(b) "a sentence of acquittal," by which God acquits men of their guilt, on the conditions

(1) of His grace in Christ, through His expiatory sacrifice,

(2) the acceptance of Christ by faith, Romans 5:16;
(c) "a righteous act," Romans 5:18, "(through one) act of righteousness," RV, not the act of "justification," nor the righteous character of Christ (as suggested by the AV: dikaioma does not signify character, as does dikaiosune, righteousness), but the death of Christ, as an act accomplished consistently with God's character and counsels; this is clear as being in antithesis to the "one trespass" in the preceding statement. Some take the word here as meaning a decree of righteousness, as in Romans 5:16; the death of Christ could indeed be regarded as fulfilling such a decree, but as the Apostle's argument proceeds, the word, as is frequently the case, passes from one shade of meaning to another, and here stands not for a decree, but an act; so in Revelation 15:4, RV, "righteous acts" (AV, "judgments"), and Revelation 19:8, "righteous acts (of the saints)" (AV, "righteousness").

(PARSING VINE'S Context Greek word dikaioma N ,G1345:
It has 3 distinct meanings;
(A) An ordinance/law decree, that God has declared, "a concrete expression of righteousness;" Aa declaration of a persons righteousness,

(B) A full sin pardon," by which God acquits men of their guilt, on the conditions:

(1) of His grace in Christ, through His expiatory sacrifice, (2) the acceptance of Christ by faith, Romans 5:16;


(2) Through the acceptance of Christ by faith.(Rom 5:16)

(c) Not the act of justification granted/pronounced by Christ. But, through one act of righteousness done by Christ (Rom 5:18). Christ' death, by one act of righteousness accomplishing the counsel of God. This righteous act supersedes Adams sin. Fulfilling the laws decree/requirement for sin/DEATH. Christ is the Lord our Righteousness. (Jer 23:6 )

You really don’t need to look to the original languages dictionary to understand this one. If one reads the Bible plainly like a child and they ask God for the Holy Spirit to give them an illumination of understanding (even if they don’t like whatever truth He will show them), then I believe you will not come away with your sin and still be saved conclusion on the Scriptures. In fact, it is a violation of basic morality and our good conscience to even think that we can sin and still be saved.

But you have to do backflip twists with 1 Timothy 5:8. This is written by the apostle Paul and he is warning believers how if they do not provide for their own, they are worse than an unbeliever and they have denied the faith. So this verse proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that salvation is conditional despite your incorrect interpretations on God’s Word.

 

[BrotherJJ]

Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words[ B-1,Verb,G1344, dikaioo ] - Justification, Justifier, Justify

PARSING VINE'S Greek word dikaioo V, G1344:
Jesus sin atoning death is the complete required fulfillment of the law of God. Proved to be accepted by His resurrection. And now the Father has made the Son/JUSTIFIER (Rom 3:26). Of ALL, that seek redemption thru FAITH placed in His FINISHED sin atoning work.

Justification is a legal, formal pronouncement by God/JUDGE. It renders a FULL sin PARDON, NEVER to be adjudicated AGAIN. Christ received sins judgment, paying the sentence for the crime/SIN.

PAY ATTENTION HERE! In Romans 3:24 (cited in the OP) Being justified is in the """present continuous tense""" """indicating the constant process of justification/salvation! Of those who believe & have been/are (right now) JUSTIFIED!

In Romans 5:1, being justified, """is in the aorist, or point, tense, indicating the definite time at which each person, upon the exercise of faith, was justified/saved. DONE DEAL/FINISHED TRANSACTION!

In Romans 8:1, Justification, ""is presented as NO condemnation/judgment due." That "justification" is in view here is confirmed by the preceding chapters and by verse Romans 3:34. In Romans 3:26, the word rendered JUSTIFIER """is the PRESENT PARTICIPLE of the verb""". DONE DEAL/FINISHED TRANSACTION!

Justification, Justifier, Justify - Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words

 

[Guojing]

It is written,

”But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies,
and contentions, and strivings about the law;
for they are unprofitable and vain.” (Titus 3:9).

So you are saying your own question was foolish.

Alright then.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

So you are saying your own question was foolish.

Alright then.

*Sigh* Obviously I was referring to your question and not my own.
Why on Earth would I be attacking my own question? That makes no sense whatsoever.
Please, if you reply, try to use Scripture in your comments or replies. If not, then you are venturing into the world of babbling nonsense of spiritism (Whereby one believes their thoughts becomes God thoughts).

Isaiah 55:8 (KJB)
”For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.”

In short, please include a Bible verse or passage as the basis of your questions or comments that you believe refutes what I believe the Bible plainly teaches. If not, then there is no real reason to have any kind of Bible discussion between one another. I am primarily here to talk about the Bible. If that is not currently your thing at the moment, then we can politely part ways and move on from any further discourse here.

In any case, whether you agree or disagree, may God bless you.