Justification by Faith

[BNR32FAN]

Not following you down any more rabbit holes. You post your preferred verses & I'll do the same.

Yeah but the difference between your theology and mine is my theology doesn’t contradict the verses you post, your theology on the other hand does contradict the verses I post.

 

[BNR32FAN]

What I said & backed-up with scripture. Was the Gospel of the kingdom message was a 100% OT (to Jews only) message. And VOID of Christ's death & resurrection. The Jews had a animal sin sacrificial system that dealt with sin

Christ's death & resurrection are required center piece's of today's salvation. Jesus sacrifice is the NT Church answer to sin.

The risen Lord Jesus, gave this message to Paul. Here is the NT gospel of the grace of God message, Paul received (Acts 20:24):

1 Cor 15
1 Now brothers and sisters, let me remind you [once again] of the good news [of salvation] which I preached to you, which you welcomed and accepted and on which you stand [by faith].

2 By this faith you are saved [reborn from above—spiritually transformed, renewed, and set apart for His purpose], if you hold firmly to the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain [just superficially and without complete commitment].

3 For I passed on to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to [that which] the Scriptures [foretold],

4 and that He was buried, and that He was [bodily] raised on the third day according to [that which] the Scriptures [foretold],

Did the people mentioned in Romans 2 have faith? No they didn’t they were not believers. The point of posting Romans 2 was not to refute that they are saved by faith the point was that Paul taught that they needed to repent. That’s all I’m trying to get you to acknowledge in that passage. If I wanted to prove that Paul taught that saved believers can lose their salvation I would posted Romans 11.

 

[BrotherJJ]

on the contrary the point of posting Romans 2 was in response to your replies. You claimed that there is no need for repentance to be saved. You claimed that Paul’s Gospel was different from Christ’s gospel. I just proved both of those wrong by quoting Romans 2 and so far you refuse to discuss it. You just cherry pick verses from other passages and paste them into the discussion as if the negate what Paul wrote in Romans 2 but you won’t actually discuss Romans 2.

You've made it clear you have no interest honest debate. You're free to promote your unscriptural work bases beliefs. I will continue to post what I believe as well. I tried to answer you questions & owe you nothing further. Best wishes, JJ

 

[BrotherJJ]

Yeah but the difference between your theology and mine is my theology doesn’t contradict the verses you post, your theology on the other hand does contradict the verses I post.

You're free to make any claims you like. Your mixing covenants is the contradiction. You're free to continue promoting your unscriptural salvation by self-works doctrine. I disagree & will continue to promote my beliefs.

 

[BrotherJJ]

Yeah but the difference between your theology and mine is my theology doesn’t contradict the verses you post, your theology on the other hand does contradict the verses I post.

Your free to believe & say whatever you choose. BTW, your works based salvation doctrine is an antithetical contradiction with the verses I shared.

 

[BrotherJJ]

Did the people mentioned in Romans 2 have faith? No they didn’t they were not believers. The point of posting Romans 2 was not to refute that they are saved by faith the point was that Paul taught that they needed to repent. That’s all I’m trying to get you to acknowledge in that passage. If I wanted to prove that Paul taught that saved believers can lose their salvation I would posted Romans 11.

I will follow you down the Rom 2 rabbit hole & parse it vs by vs. AFTER you address just a few of the passages I posted for discussions. Here are the passages I'd like addressed:

Eph 1:14 Holy Spirit; which is """the earnest """ """of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession""", unto the praise of his glory.

Eph 1:3 Blessed be the God & Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who """has blessed us""" with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

Eph 4:30 The Holy Spirit of God, ""whereby ye are SEALED"" unto the day of redemption

Additional scripture references on the Holy Spirit as a seal: 2 Cor 1:22, 2 Timothy 1:14, 2 Cor 5:5.

Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words: definition - Seal
English "seal" = Greek "sphragis" context as a Noun - Strongs ref #4973
(a) "the seal of the living God," an emblem of "ownership & security" the persons to be "sealed" being "secured from destruction & marked for reward"

English "seal" = Greek "sphragizo" context as a verb - Strongs ref #4972
(d) ownership and security, three indications are conveyed in Ephesians 1:13 , in the metaphor of the "sealing" of believers by the gift of the Holy Spirit, upon believing (i.e., at the time of their regeneration, not after a lapse of time in their spiritual life, "having also believed," "after that ye believed;" the aorist (TENSE) participle marks the definiteness and completeness of the act of faith); the idea of destination is stressed by the phrase "the Holy Spirit of promise" (see also Ephesians 1:14 ); so Ephesians 4:30 , "ye were sealed unto the day of redemption;"

Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words: EARNEST - (Noun) [ 1,,G728, arrabon ]

The EARNEST is a down payment/pledge/promoise. The Holy Spirit that Christ baptizes every beliebver with is a seal/guarentee of their promised eternal inheritance. In modern Greek arrabona is an "engagement ring.
Source link: Earnest (Noun) - Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words

KJ Bible Dictionary: FORGIV'EN - Pardoned remitted.
av1611.com
FORGIVEN - Definition from the KJV Dictionary
Definition of FORGIVEN from the King James Bible Dictionary
av1611.com

Vine's Expository Dictionary of NT Words: Forgiven - [ A-2,Verb,G5483, charizomai ]
"to bestow a favor unconditionally," is used of the act of "forgiveness," whether Divine, Ephesians 4:32; Colossians 2:13; Colossians 3:13; or human, Luke 7:42-Luke 7:43 (debt); 2 Corinthians 2:7, 2 Corinthians 2:10; 2 Corinthians 12:13; Ephesians 4:32 (1st mention)

King James Bible dictionary say's; believers sins are PARDONED!.

Vines Bible dictionary say's; the believers sin forgiveness is UNCONDITIONAL! Not! until the next time you slip/fall/sin. AMEN & Amen

Heb 9:12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

Heb 13:20 Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant,

Heb 10:14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

Rev 1:5 Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto Jesus Christ that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

Believers sins are forgiven & washed away. They are preserved & perfected via a Christ/God mediated everlasting covenant!

Matt 15:24 Messiah answered & said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Rom 15: Rom 15:8 I say that Messiah was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers:

Eph 2:
11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;

12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
(Prior to Peter's Acts 10 visit [6-7 years after Acts 2 Pentecost] NO GENTILE is preached to, not by Jesus or anyone else.

Acts 11:19 Now they which were scattered abroad upon the persecution that arose about Stephen travelled as far as Phenice, and Cyprus, and Antioch, """""""preaching the word to none but unto the Jews only"""".
(MY NOTE: Its years after the (JEWS ONLY) Holy Spirit outpouring at Acts 2 Pentecost & Jews are still only preaching Messiah to other Jews)

Tit 3:
5 He saved us, not because of any works of righteousness that we have done, but because of His own compassion and mercy, by the cleansing of the new birth (spiritual transformation, regeneration) and renewing by the Holy Spirit,

6 whom He poured out richly upon us through Jesus Christ our Savior,

7 so that we would be justified [made free of the guilt of sin] by His [compassionate, undeserved] grace, and that we would be [acknowledged as acceptable to Him and] made heirs of eternal life [actually experiencing it] according to our hope (His guarantee).

Did the people mentioned in Romans 2 have faith? No they didn’t they were not believers. The point of posting Romans 2 was not to refute that they are saved by faith the point was that Paul taught that they needed to repent. That’s all I’m trying to get you to acknowledge in that passage. If I wanted to prove that Paul taught that saved believers can lose their salvation I would posted Romans 11.

 

[BNR32FAN]

[removed]

So Hebrews wasn’t written by a Christian?

 

[BNR32FAN]

You're free to make any claims you like. Your mixing covenants is the contradiction. You're free to continue promoting your unscriptural salvation by self-works doctrine. I disagree & will continue to promote my beliefs.

Bless you friend. I would kindly like to point out a few things to consider. First I would like to say that we are absolutely not saved by our works we are saved grace thru having faith in Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. We absolutely cannot earn our salvation. However as James stated in James 2:14 a faith that does not produce works is not a saving faith. It’s not the works that earn salvation it’s the type of faith that Jesus commands us to have. I was not referring to James 2:21-24. James is not saying we are made right with God but our works. The Greek word translated to “justified” not only mean to be rendered or made right with God but also means to be shown or evinced to be right with God. If James were saying we are made right with God by our works then he would be directly contradicting Paul in Romans 4:1-5. James is talking about showing our faith by our works as evidence of our faith. His point is that a lack of works shows evidence of a lack of faith or a faith that is not genuine.

Now concerning Matthew 25:31-46 please notice that Jesus gives the reason why the goats were condemned in verse 42 & 43.

“"Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels; for I was hungry, and you gave Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink; I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me.'”
‭‭MATTHEW‬ ‭25:41-43‬ ‭NASB‬‬

Now looking at these I would like to go back and compare these examples of works with the examples given by James in chapter 2 when he was referring to a faith that did not produce works which is not a saving faith. Notice the similarities.

“What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him? If a brother or sister is without clothing and in need of daily food, and one of you says to them, "Go in peace, be warmed and be filled," and yet you do not give them what is necessary for their body, what use is that? Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself.”
‭‭JAMES‬ ‭2:14-17‬ ‭NASB‬‬

Notice in both of these examples of works these are dealing with works of love and compassion for others. They show a lack of love for others. Now notice in John 15:10-13 the message Jesus gives to His 11 faithful disciples concerning bearing fruit and abiding in His love.

“If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love; just as I have kept My Father's commandments and abide in His love. These things I have spoken to you so that My joy may be in you, and that your joy may be made full. "This is My commandment, that you love one another, just as I have loved you. Greater love has no one than this, that one lay down his life for his friends.”
‭‭JOHN‬ ‭15:10-13‬ ‭NASB‬‬

These are all in connection to loving others and a lack of fruit or works as given in the examples show a lack of love. Are we saved by faith without love for others? If we say we have faith but have not love for others is that a saving faith? I believe this is the root of all three of these messages.

Now I’d like to go into John 15 in a little more detail because I believe you have the incorrect definition of the word translated to “taketh away”. Allow me to present the full definition.

Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

away

G142


G142


Lemma:

αἴρω


Transliteration:

aírō


Pronounce:

ah'-ee-ro


Part of Speech:

Verb


Language:

greek


Description:

1) to raise up, elevate, lift up a) to raise from the ground, take up: stones b) to raise upwards, elevate, lift up: the hand c) to draw up: a fish

2) to take upon one's self and carry what has been raised up, to bear

3) to bear away what has been raised, carry off a) to move from its place b) to take off or away what is attached to anything c) to remove d) to carry off, carry away with one e) to appropriate what is taken f) to take away from another what is his or what is committed to him, to take by force g) to take and apply to any use h) to take from among the living, either by a natural death, or by violence i) cause to cease

The branch is attached to the vine because it is “in Christ” as stated in verse 2. So the correct definition concerning something that is attached to something is removed or cut off. Jesus also says “he who abides in Me will bear much fruit”. The branches that do not bear fruit are not abiding in Him and are cut off from the vine. Now notice in verse 6

“If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned.”
‭‭JOHN‬ ‭15:6‬ ‭NASB‬‬

Notice the definition of the Greek word translated to “thrown or cast”.

If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

cast

G906+G906


G906


Lemma:

βάλλω


Transliteration:

bállō


Pronounce:

bal'-lo


Part of Speech:

Verb


Language:

greek


Description:

1) to throw or let go of a thing without caring where it falls a) to scatter, to throw, cast into b) to give over to one's care uncertain about the result c) of fluids

1) to pour, pour into of rivers

2) to pour out

2) to put into, insert

So when you put this together anyone who does not bear fruit is not abiding in Christ and is cut off or removed from the vine (Christ) carelessly and without regard thrown away to wither (dry up and waste away) then carelessly and without regard thrown into the fire to be burned.

Keep in mind Jesus is speaking only to His 11 faithful apostles who undoubtedly believed and had faith. Yet He feels it is necessary to warn them of the consequences of not bearing fruit and not abiding in Him which results in loss of salvation. This is what the church has always taught from the beginning and there are many early church writings to support this interpretation going all the way back to 180AD by St Iranaeus in his writing Adversus Haereses. He does not address this passage directly but does address that salvation is conditional and can be revoked as well as many others.

Perhaps it’s not the works at all but the motivation behind those works that is taken into consideration. Consider 1 Corinthians 13.

“If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but do not have love, I have become a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. If I have the gift of prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge; and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. And if I give all my possessions to feed the poor, and if I surrender my body to be burned, but do not have love, it profits me nothing.”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭13:1-3‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

From this we can conclude that faith without love is worthless and we can also conclude that works without love is equally worthless. Perhaps the right combination is faith with love, because these two together will produce works.

Perhaps these will give you some insight on what I actually teach so you can dispense with the false accusations. Notice the dates of these posts, I’ve been refuting salvation by works for years.

 

[BNR32FAN]

I will follow you down the Rom 2 rabbit hole & parse it vs by vs. AFTER you address just a few of the passages I posted for discussions. Here are the passages I'd like addressed:

Eph 1:14 Holy Spirit; which is """the earnest """ """of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession""", unto the praise of his glory.

Eph 1:3 Blessed be the God & Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who """has blessed us""" with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

Eph 4:30 The Holy Spirit of God, ""whereby ye are SEALED"" unto the day of redemption

Additional scripture references on the Holy Spirit as a seal: 2 Cor 1:22, 2 Timothy 1:14, 2 Cor 5:5.

Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words: definition - Seal
English "seal" = Greek "sphragis" context as a Noun - Strongs ref #4973
(a) "the seal of the living God," an emblem of "ownership & security" the persons to be "sealed" being "secured from destruction & marked for reward"

English "seal" = Greek "sphragizo" context as a verb - Strongs ref #4972
(d) ownership and security, three indications are conveyed in Ephesians 1:13 , in the metaphor of the "sealing" of believers by the gift of the Holy Spirit, upon believing (i.e., at the time of their regeneration, not after a lapse of time in their spiritual life, "having also believed," "after that ye believed;" the aorist (TENSE) participle marks the definiteness and completeness of the act of faith); the idea of destination is stressed by the phrase "the Holy Spirit of promise" (see also Ephesians 1:14 ); so Ephesians 4:30 , "ye were sealed unto the day of redemption;"

Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words: EARNEST - (Noun) [ 1,,G728, arrabon ]

The EARNEST is a down payment/pledge/promoise. The Holy Spirit that Christ baptizes every beliebver with is a seal/guarentee of their promised eternal inheritance. In modern Greek arrabona is an "engagement ring.
Source link: Earnest (Noun) - Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words

KJ Bible Dictionary: FORGIV'EN - Pardoned remitted.
av1611.com
FORGIVEN - Definition from the KJV Dictionary
Definition of FORGIVEN from the King James Bible Dictionary
av1611.com

Vine's Expository Dictionary of NT Words: Forgiven - [ A-2,Verb,G5483, charizomai ]
"to bestow a favor unconditionally," is used of the act of "forgiveness," whether Divine, Ephesians 4:32; Colossians 2:13; Colossians 3:13; or human, Luke 7:42-Luke 7:43 (debt); 2 Corinthians 2:7, 2 Corinthians 2:10; 2 Corinthians 12:13; Ephesians 4:32 (1st mention)

King James Bible dictionary say's; believers sins are PARDONED!.

Vines Bible dictionary say's; the believers sin forgiveness is UNCONDITIONAL! Not! until the next time you slip/fall/sin. AMEN & Amen

Heb 9:12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

Heb 13:20 Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant,

Heb 10:14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

Rev 1:5 Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto Jesus Christ that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

Believers sins are forgiven & washed away. They are preserved & perfected via a Christ/God mediated everlasting covenant!

Matt 15:24 Messiah answered & said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Rom 15: Rom 15:8 I say that Messiah was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers:

Eph 2:
11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;

12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
(Prior to Peter's Acts 10 visit [6-7 years after Acts 2 Pentecost] NO GENTILE is preached to, not by Jesus or anyone else.

Acts 11:19 Now they which were scattered abroad upon the persecution that arose about Stephen travelled as far as Phenice, and Cyprus, and Antioch, """""""preaching the word to none but unto the Jews only"""".
(MY NOTE: Its years after the (JEWS ONLY) Holy Spirit outpouring at Acts 2 Pentecost & Jews are still only preaching Messiah to other Jews)

Tit 3:
5 He saved us, not because of any works of righteousness that we have done, but because of His own compassion and mercy, by the cleansing of the new birth (spiritual transformation, regeneration) and renewing by the Holy Spirit,

6 whom He poured out richly upon us through Jesus Christ our Savior,

7 so that we would be justified [made free of the guilt of sin] by His [compassionate, undeserved] grace, and that we would be [acknowledged as acceptable to Him and] made heirs of eternal life [actually experiencing it] according to our hope (His guarantee).

Ok if we’re going to have a productive discussion then it’s best not to post a bombardment of verses because each one needs to be addressed comprehensively. I’ll address the ones before your vines definition then as we go on we can move onto other verses.

 

[BrotherJJ]

So Hebrews wasn’t written by a Christian?

Nobody knows for sure who wrote Hebrews. It's written to Hebrews, chapters 8 & 10 that have been discussed in this thread. Are clearly written to people that participated in OT Levitical animal sacrifices. No Jewish Christian would have ever brought an animal sacrifice to the priest. No gentile would have had assess to that Jewish ritual.

 

[BrotherJJ]

Perhaps these will give you some insight on what I actually teach so you can dispense with the false accusations. Notice the dates of these posts, I’ve been refuting salvation by works for years.

I'm aware of what you promote & adamantly disagree your stated doctrinal positions.

 

[BrotherJJ]

Ok if we’re going to have a productive discussion then it’s best not to post a bombardment of verses because each one needs to be addressed comprehensively. I’ll address the ones before your vines definition then as we go on we can move onto other verses.

The point of the post was, you don't read or consider any of the verses I cite. I addressed your abide, endure & many of your works based positions.
I'm mostly interested how your going to discount the known, verifiable English to Greek translators at Vine's. Truth is, nothing is going to move either one of us of our beliefs. I see no reason to waste any further time trying.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Eph 1:14 Holy Spirit; which is """the earnest """ """of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession""", unto the praise of his glory.

“In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory.”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭1‬:‭13‬-‭14‬ ‭NASB1995‬

The Holy Spirit being given as a promise or a pledge of our inheritance means we have entered into God’s covenant. It means God is guaranteed to keep His part of the agreement if we keep our part and abide in Christ. It doesn’t mean we can believe for a while then fall away and continuously grieve the Spirit and expect God to honor an agreement that we ourselves broke.

Eph 1:3 Blessed be the God & Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who """has blessed us""" with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

God blesses people all the time, that doesn’t mean they cannot once again become children of wrath. There’s no promise of salvation in that verse.

Eph 4:30 The Holy Spirit of God, ""whereby ye are SEALED"" unto the day of redemption

Why did you omit the first portion of that verse?

“Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭4‬:‭30‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

What does Paul say just 3 sentences after this?

“Therefore be imitators of God, as beloved children; and walk in love, just as Christ also loved you and gave Himself up for us, an offering and a sacrifice to God as a fragrant aroma. But immorality or any impurity or greed must not even be named among you, as is proper among saints; and there must be no filthiness and silly talk, or coarse jesting, which are not fitting, but rather giving of thanks. For this you know with certainty, that no immoral or impure person or covetous man, who is an idolater, has an inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience.”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭5‬:‭1‬-‭6‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Now this is a very important question to the discussion. Is Paul telling them that they will be saved no matter what they do?

Additional scripture references on the Holy Spirit as a seal: 2 Cor 1:22, 2 Timothy 1:14, 2 Cor 5:5.

“Now He who establishes us with you in Christ and anointed us is God, who also sealed us and gave us the Spirit in our hearts as a pledge.”
‭‭2 Corinthians‬ ‭1‬:‭21‬-‭22‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

There are two key words here “in Christ”. Are we remaining in Christ if we turn away from believing in Him? Are we remaining in Christ when we ignore His teachings?

“Retain the standard of sound words which you have heard from me, in the faith and love which are in Christ Jesus. Guard, through the Holy Spirit who dwells in us, the treasure which has been entrusted to you.”
‭‭2 Timothy‬ ‭1‬:‭13‬-‭14‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

You quoted 2 Timothy 2:14 but verse 13 was actually actually contains the condition for verse 14. Again it’s contingent upon the person being “in Christ”.

2 Corinthians 5:5 is the same pledge of the New Covenant. You have to understand that the Covenant is based on us abiding in Christ. If we fail to do so then we have voided the agreement.

 

[BNR32FAN]

The point of the post was, you don't read or consider any of the verses I cite. I addressed your abide, endure & many of your works based positions.
I'm mostly interested how your going to discount the known, verifiable English to Greek translators at Vine's. Truth is, nothing is going to move either one of us of our beliefs. I see no reason to waste any further time trying.

William Vine was a late 19th century reformed theologian, he is biased in favor of reformed theology.

 

[Der Alte]

Nobody knows for sure who wrote Hebrews. It's written to Hebrews, chapters 8 & 10 that have been discussed in this thread. Are clearly written to people that participated in OT Levitical animal sacrifices. No Jewish Christian would have ever brought an animal sacrifice to the priest. No gentile would have had assess to that Jewish ritual.

Some folks search the Bible to find vss. which they think either do or can be "interpreted" to support their denominational assumptions/presuppositions. While Hebrews is written primarily to Jews they were not strictly OT Temple Jews but Jewish Christians and much of what Hebrews addresses to Hebrew Christians applies to non-Jewish Christian as well.

Hebrews 4:14-15​

(14) Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession.​

(15) For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.​

Hebrews 5:1​

(1) For every high priest taken from among men is ordained for men in things pertaining to God, that he may offer both gifts and sacrifices for sins:​

Hebrews 6:20​

(20) Whither the forerunner is for us entered, even Jesus, made an high priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.​

Hebrews 10:9-12​

(9) Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He [Jesus] taketh away the first, [covenant] that he may establish the second.​

(10) By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.​

(11) And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:​

(12) But this man, [Jesus] after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;​

Hebrews 10:20-21​

(20) By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;​

(21) And having an high priest over the house of God;​

 

[BrotherJJ]

“In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory.”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭1‬:‭13‬-‭14‬ ‭NASB1995‬

The Holy Spirit being given as a promise or a pledge of our inheritance means we have entered into God’s covenant. It means God is guaranteed to keep His part of the agreement if we keep our part and abide in Christ. It doesn’t mean we can believe for a while then fall away and continuously grieve the Spirit and expect God to honor an agreement that we ourselves broke.

God blesses people all the time, that doesn’t mean they cannot once again become children of wrath. There’s no promise of salvation in that verse.

Why did you omit the first portion of that verse?

“Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭4‬:‭30‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

What does Paul say just 3 sentences after this?

“Therefore be imitators of God, as beloved children; and walk in love, just as Christ also loved you and gave Himself up for us, an offering and a sacrifice to God as a fragrant aroma. But immorality or any impurity or greed must not even be named among you, as is proper among saints; and there must be no filthiness and silly talk, or coarse jesting, which are not fitting, but rather giving of thanks. For this you know with certainty, that no immoral or impure person or covetous man, who is an idolater, has an inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience.”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭5‬:‭1‬-‭6‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Now this is a very important question to the discussion. Is Paul telling them that they will be saved no matter what they do?

“Now He who establishes us with you in Christ and anointed us is God, who also sealed us and gave us the Spirit in our hearts as a pledge.”
‭‭2 Corinthians‬ ‭1‬:‭21‬-‭22‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

There are two key words here “in Christ”. Are we remaining in Christ if we turn away from believing in Him? Are we remaining in Christ when we ignore His teachings?

“Retain the standard of sound words which you have heard from me, in the faith and love which are in Christ Jesus. Guard, through the Holy Spirit who dwells in us, the treasure which has been entrusted to you.”
‭‭2 Timothy‬ ‭1‬:‭13‬-‭14‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

You quoted 2 Timothy 2:14 but verse 13 was actually actually contains the condition for verse 14. Again it’s contingent upon the person being “in Christ”.

2 Corinthians 5:5 is the same pledge of the New Covenant. You have to understand that the Covenant is based on us abiding in Christ. If we fail to do so then we have voided the agreement.

Here's why you won't speak to Vine's. experts in Greek nouns & their grammatical genders: masculine, feminine, neuter & how their used in a number, singular, dual, or plural. And all respects of Greek verbs to mood, voice, aspect, tense, number, and person.

They define SEAL in verse Eph 1:13:
(a) "the seal of the living God," an emblem of "ownership & security" the persons to be "sealed" being "secured from destruction & marked for reward"

(b) As ownership & security, marking the definiteness and completeness of the act of faith.

(MY NOTE: Bought, paid for & secure. Saved DONE DEAL not until the next you willful or otherwise. BTW most sins are willful.

Vine's translators verifiable experts in Greek to English define EARNEST & cite 2 Cor 1:2, 5:5, Eph 1:14:

To denote "a pledge", used only of that which is assured by God to believers; it is said of the Holy Spirit as the Divine "pledge" of all their future blessedness, particularly of their eternal inheritance.

(MY NOTE: The Holy Spirit, Christ places in the believer (by FAITH) is God's down payment promise of their eternal inheritance. )

BNR32FAN, I choose the Greek to English translators interpretation of these works, over yours. Everyone else is free to choose as well.

Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words: definition - Seal - English "seal" = Greek "sphragis" context as a Noun - Strongs ref #4973

(a) "the seal of the living God," an emblem of "ownership & security" the persons to be "sealed" being "secured from destruction & marked for reward"

English "seal" = Greek "sphragizo" context as a verb - Strongs ref #4972
(d) ownership and security, three indications are conveyed in Ephesians 1:13 , in the metaphor of the "sealing" of believers by the gift of the Holy Spirit, upon believing (i.e., at the time of their regeneration, not after a lapse of time in their spiritual life, "having also believed," "after that ye believed;" the aorist (TENSE) participle marks the definiteness and completeness of the act of faith); the idea of destination is stressed by the phrase "the Holy Spirit of promise" (see also Ephesians 1:14 ); so Ephesians 4:30 , "ye were sealed unto the day of redemption;"

Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words: EARNEST - (Noun) [ 1,,G728, arrabon ]
[ 1,,G728, arrabon ]
originally, earnest-money" deposited by the purchaser and forfeited if the purchase was not completed, was probably a Phoenician word, introduced into Greece. In general usage it came to denote "a pledge" or "earnest" of any sort; in the NT it is used only of that which is assured by God to believers; it is said of the Holy Spirit as the Divine "pledge" of all their future blessedness, 2 Corinthians 1:22; 2 Corinthians 5:5; in Ephesians 1:14, particularly of their eternal inheritance. In the Sept., Genesis 38:17-Genesis 38:18, Genesis 38:20. In modern Greek arrabona is an "engagement ring."

 

[BrotherJJ]

Some folks search the Bible to find vss. which they think either do or can be "interpreted" to support their denominational assumptions/presuppositions. While Hebrews is written primarily to Jews they were not strictly OT Temple Jews but Jewish Christians and much of what Hebrews addresses to Hebrew Christians applies to non-Jewish Christian as well.

​

I disagree with your interpretation, the verses from Heb 8 & 10 discussed in this thread. Are clearly written to Mosaic law adherences. And the writers primary audience is Mosaic law adherences. Certainly there are some Jewish converts He's encouraging.

The main theme throughout the book of Hebrews is BETTER.

Christ is better: Better then angels, because they worship the Christ. Better then Moses, because He created him. Better then the Aaronic priesthood, because Christ's sin sacrifice is once for all time. Better then the law, because Christ mediates a better covenant.

 

[Der Alte]

I disagree with your interpretation, the verses from Heb 8 & 10 discussed in this thread. Are clearly written to Mosaic law adherences. And the writers primary audience is Mosaic law adherences. Certainly there are some Jewish converts He's encouraging.
The main theme throughout the book of Hebrews is BETTER.

Christ is better: Better then angels, because they worship the Christ. Better then Moses, because He created him. Better then the Aaronic priesthood, because Christ's sin sacrifice is once for all time. Better then the law, because Christ mediates a better covenant.

More than some Mosaic converts. Hebrews recognizes Jesus as The high priest, Mosaic law most assuredly does not. Worship of Christ is NOT Mosaic law. Christ's sacrifice is not Mosaic law.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Here's why you won't speak to Vine's. experts in Greek nouns & their grammatical genders: masculine, feminine, neuter & how their used in a number, singular, dual, or plural. And all respects of Greek verbs to mood, voice, aspect, tense, number, and person.

They define SEAL in verse Eph 1:13:
(a) "the seal of the living God," an emblem of "ownership & security" the persons to be "sealed" being "secured from destruction & marked for reward"

(b) As ownership & security, marking the definiteness and completeness of the act of faith.

(MY NOTE: Bought, paid for & secure. Saved DONE DEAL not until the next you willful or otherwise. BTW most sins are willful.

Vine's translators verifiable experts in Greek to English define EARNEST & cite 2 Cor 1:2, 5:5, Eph 1:14:

To denote "a pledge", used only of that which is assured by God to believers; it is said of the Holy Spirit as the Divine "pledge" of all their future blessedness, particularly of their eternal inheritance.

(MY NOTE: The Holy Spirit, Christ places in the believer (by FAITH) is God's down payment promise of their eternal inheritance. )

BNR32FAN, I choose the Greek to English translators interpretation of these works, over yours. Everyone else is free to choose as well.

Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words: definition - Seal - English "seal" = Greek "sphragis" context as a Noun - Strongs ref #4973

(a) "the seal of the living God," an emblem of "ownership & security" the persons to be "sealed" being "secured from destruction & marked for reward"

English "seal" = Greek "sphragizo" context as a verb - Strongs ref #4972
(d) ownership and security, three indications are conveyed in Ephesians 1:13 , in the metaphor of the "sealing" of believers by the gift of the Holy Spirit, upon believing (i.e., at the time of their regeneration, not after a lapse of time in their spiritual life, "having also believed," "after that ye believed;" the aorist (TENSE) participle marks the definiteness and completeness of the act of faith); the idea of destination is stressed by the phrase "the Holy Spirit of promise" (see also Ephesians 1:14 ); so Ephesians 4:30 , "ye were sealed unto the day of redemption;"

Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words: EARNEST - (Noun) [ 1,,G728, arrabon ]
[ 1,,G728, arrabon ]
originally, earnest-money" deposited by the purchaser and forfeited if the purchase was not completed, was probably a Phoenician word, introduced into Greece. In general usage it came to denote "a pledge" or "earnest" of any sort; in the NT it is used only of that which is assured by God to believers; it is said of the Holy Spirit as the Divine "pledge" of all their future blessedness, 2 Corinthians 1:22; 2 Corinthians 5:5; in Ephesians 1:14, particularly of their eternal inheritance. In the Sept., Genesis 38:17-Genesis 38:18, Genesis 38:20. In modern Greek arrabona is an "engagement ring."

Apparently not all respects of usage are contained in the Vine’s definition.Thayer’s Greek Lexicon provide usages that Vine’s does not.

Strong's Greek: 4972. σφραγίζω (sphragizó) -- To seal, to set a seal upon, to mark with a seal

biblehub.com

So if those who are in Christ are sealed with the Holy Spirit and that means that they can never lose their salvation then how does this happen?

“You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭5‬:‭4‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Are these people still saved?

 

[BNR32FAN]

I disagree with your interpretation, the verses from Heb 8 & 10 discussed in this thread. Are clearly written to Mosaic law adherences. And the writers primary audience is Mosaic law adherences. Certainly there are some Jewish converts He's encouraging.

The main theme throughout the book of Hebrews is BETTER.

Christ is better: Better then angels, because they worship the Christ. Better then Moses, because He created him. Better then the Aaronic priesthood, because Christ's sin sacrifice is once for all time. Better then the law, because Christ mediates a better covenant.

It was because of the Mosaic Law that Paul persecuted Christians most of which were Jews. Like Stephen for example.