Three Questions Relative to the 4th Commandment

[Sorn]

Really? So, Jesus had two plans of salvation: One for the Jews and one for the Gentiles? Grace through faith and works for Jews, and Grace through faith for the Gentiles? And here I've been thinking all along that in this New Covenant dispensation there is neither Jew or Greek...

Yes, under the dispensation of grace there is neither Jew or Greek etc, so a Jewish person believing in Jesus will effectively be a Christian currently.
However this is only until the rapture, which ends the dispensation of grace. I should have stated that in my earlier post. After that God will again be operating according to the old testament covenant He had with Israel which requires them to live according to the law of Moses.
I've been watching this series of videos, here is one of his shorter ones, 7.5mins. I have found his videos to be well thought out and presented & biblically based so, whilst I am examining his viewpoint closer as it may have merit.

The video titled: Hebrews through John - Written to the Church or Israel? is also a good one to watch

 

[Sorn]

What about a devout Jew who has availed himself of the mikvah already? Does he need to be baptized yet again?

Well, if the mikvah can be a stand in for the baptism mentioned in Mark 16:16 then yes otherwise probably needs another dunking.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Yes, under the dispensation of grace there is neither Jew or Greek etc, so a Jewish person believing in Jesus will effectively be a Christian currently.
However this is only until the rapture, which ends the dispensation of grace. I should have stated that in my earlier post. After that God will again be operating according to the old testament covenant He had with Israel which requires them to live according to the law of Moses.
I've been watching this series of videos, here is one of his shorter ones, 7.5mins. I have found his videos to be well thought out and presented & biblically based so, whilst I am examining his viewpoint closer as it may have merit.

The video titled: Hebrews through John - Written to the Church or Israel? is also a good one to watch

Dispensationalism is a theological error because it contradicts the Catholic understanding of salvation history, the unity of God’s plan, the fulfilment of the Old Testament in Christ, and the continuity of Israel and the Church. Here are some reasons why:

• Dispensationalism divides history into different dispensations or periods in which God interacts with mankind in different ways. This implies that God changes his mind or his methods over time, which is incompatible with the Catholic belief that God is immutable and eternal. The Catholic Church teaches that God has one eternal plan of salvation that is gradually revealed and accomplished throughout history 1,2
• Dispensationalism interprets the Bible literally, especially the prophecies concerning Israel and the end times. This ignores the spiritual and allegorical sense of Scripture, which the Catholic Church affirms as a valid and necessary way of understanding God’s word. The Catholic Church teaches that the Old Testament should be read in the light of Christ, who is the fulfilment of the law and the prophets 3,4
• Dispensationalism makes a sharp distinction between Israel and the Church, and claims that God has different plans and promises for each of them. This denies the Catholic doctrine that the Church is the new Israel, the people of God, who inherit the blessings and covenants of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob through faith in Christ. The Catholic Church teaches that there is only one people of God, composed of Jews and Gentiles, who are united in Christ by baptism.
• Dispensationalism holds that the Church age is a parenthesis or interruption in God’s plan for Israel, and that God will resume his dealings with Israel after the rapture of the Church. This contradicts the Catholic view that the Church age is the last stage of salvation history, and that Christ will come again at the end of time to judge the living and the dead. The Catholic Church teaches that there is no secret rapture or tribulation before Christ’s second coming, but rather a final persecution and apostasy, followed by a universal conversion of Israel and all nations.

These are some of the main reasons why dispensationalism is a theological error from a Catholic perspective. I hope this helps you understand why Catholics reject this system of interpretation.

 

[Sorn]

• Dispensationalism divides history into different dispensations or periods in which God interacts with mankind in different ways. This implies that God changes his mind or his methods over time, which is incompatible with the Catholic belief that God is immutable and eternal.

So the right way to think of God is that nothing can change Him or affect Him unless He wants to be changed or affected. So He can be blue today and green tomorrow if He wants to be, perfectly fine.
Gods character and value system does not change, i'll agree with that, but God can and does carry out different actions so His methods can change over time. There was a time when He created, now He is resting, He will create again in the future. He can deal with different people differently and still be true to His character and nature. The Jews accepted the covenant or agreement God made with them, its a contract effectively & God will fully honor His part.

Incidentally God changed Himself when He took on the form of a man to be Jesus here on Earth and He (the Son) still has that form in heaven now.

 

[Sorn]

• Dispensationalism interprets the Bible literally, especially the prophecies concerning Israel and the end times.
• Dispensationalism makes a sharp distinction between Israel and the Church, and claims that God has different plans and promises for each of them.
• Dispensationalism holds that the Church age is a parenthesis or interruption in God’s plan for Israel, and that God will resume his dealings with Israel after the rapture of the Church.

These are some of the main reasons why dispensationalism is a theological error from a Catholic perspective. I hope this helps you understand why Catholics reject this system of interpretation.

Yes to each dot point as i have edited them, Catholics have an erroneous understanding of the scriptures imo.

 

[Canuckster]

Good grief is right! Again I will remind you...YOU said the ENTIRE law..."all 613". That is what YOU said. Now you are revising your original claim. I am finished going in circles with your complete lack of knowledge regarding Torah...Shalom

I’m not revising my original claim…. I would keep the “ENTIRE LAW” the way the Lord intended me to… as it applies to me. I don’t think He'd have me stoned outside the camp for not observing menstrual laws. And yes, your complete knowledge regarding Torah has you going in circles... and nowhere else. Shalom

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

I’m not revising my original claim…. I would keep the “ENTIRE LAW” the way the Lord intended me to… as it applies to me. I don’t think He'd have me stoned outside the camp for not observing menstrual laws. And yes, your complete knowledge regarding Torah has you going in circles... and nowhere else. Shalom

But you do not keep the entire law; you do not sacrifice a Passover lamb, nor make a sin offering, or offerings on the day of atonement, in fact it is very likely that you offer no lambs, goats, bulls, heifers for any sacrifices to YHWH your God despite YHWH's command that you are to do so.

 

[Canuckster]

But you do not keep the entire law; you do not sacrifice a Passover lamb, nor make a sin offering, or offerings on the day of atonement, in fact it is very likely that you offer no lambs, goats, bulls, heifers for any sacrifices to YHWH your God despite YHWH's command that you are to do so.

Please go back and read the correspondence from the beginning to get the context of my last comment. It's a good habit to get into.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

I’m not revising my original claim…. I would keep the “ENTIRE LAW” the way the Lord intended me to… as it applies to me. I don’t think He'd have me stoned outside the camp for not observing menstrual laws. And yes, your complete knowledge regarding Torah has you going in circles... and nowhere else. Shalom

Again, you have proven you have no knowledge regarding Torah.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

That's simple. Each gender keeps ALL the law that applies to that gender. I think this is kinda understood by most straight-thinking people.

Here, let me throw you another curve ball All Israel was commanded to keep the Torah. So would YOU understand this to mean that even infants or very small children who really have little or no concept of right and wrong were also required to keep the Law? Is there any end to your absurd literalism?

Yes, it SHOULD be understood by those that understand Torah, buy sadly that is not true for some here. So why is that a curve ball? Parents keep parts for them, such as circumcision, eating only kosher foods, etc. Parents teach children Torah. Torah would be kept fully at and after the age of reason. This is where the bar and bat mitzvah came from. Children begin learning Torah as soon as they are able. Halachically speaking, the obligation to start training children to do all mitzvot begins somewhere between the age of 6 and 9. We can't compare newborn infants to toddlers or older children, their needs and the what they absorb, comprehend and process are very different. The absurd literalism belongs to others here as I have shown.

 

[Canuckster]

Again, you have proven you have no knowledge regarding Torah.

Again… you have proven that all you can do is boast about your knowledge of Torah cause it’s far too late to cover up your absurdities.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

Again… you have proven that all you can do is boast about your knowledge of Torah cause it’s far too late to cover up your absurdities.

You have shown your complete lack of knowledge regarding Torah...now all you have left is to insult...quite sad

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

1. Do I have to keep the 4th commandment faithfully in order to be saved? (Yes or No, please.)
2. Heb 7:12 speaks to a "change of law" that is necessary. Do any of you know what the new law is that replaced the old?
3. Can medical professionals who must work on the sabbath perform that good work for pay? (Yes or No, please.)

Thus the thread starts: what answers ought a Sabbath (Saturday) keeper give?
should it be

1. YES
2. CEREMONIAL LAW ABOLISHED BUT 10 COMMANDMENTS CONTINUE REINFORCED AND FULLY OBLIGATORY
3. ACTS OF MERCY ON THE SABBATH ARE PERMITTED

Does that look about right?

If I was living back in those days, I would obey the entire law. You know why???? Because during that time, the Lord was ruler and King of Israel, He promised to all that He would take care of everything else, ALL my needs if I obeyed Him: He’d protect me from my enemies, near and far, He’d heal my diseases, protect my family, He would make sure I lacked nothing just as he did for Solomon when he obeyed. I could entirely focus not only on keeping his laws perfectly,

You wrote the above; complete obedience, even perfect obedience is what you claim as your goal. Impressive claim, not even Moses managed to do it, to keep the whole law perfectly.

Now sure, I would make mistakes, I would fall to weaknesses, but God provided provisions within that law where for certain short comings I could obtain mercy through repentance and animal sacrifices, just as Moses and Aaron received mercy… even David received mercy for a most egregious sin. But, to try and keep those laws living under a foreign government, like it was for the Israelites in Egypt, or like it is today in this sick world under international communism: Impossible! So what’s the solution: do it your way and butcher parts out of the law that are inconvenient, and then make others feel guilty cause they won’t obey my mutilated old covenant, or turn to what Christ offered me through His sacrifice, where I can keep the spirit of the whole law while living within the dungeons of foreign captivity?

Recognising the difficulty you added the above.

I would keep the entire law by keeping it as it was delivered to me through Moses. I would also apply for minor duties like keeping the outside area of the Tabernacle tidy. I would be a very happy man.

But you also added the above in reply to a statement about your alleged lack of understanding of the Torah. The claim said:

Again, that just shows your complete lack of understanding regarding Torah. Tell me HOW, just you, would obey the ENTIRE law...??? Remember, you said BACK IN THOSE DAYS. You can't use Matthew or Romans because they were not written yet. You have the TaNaKh, that's it...​

So far the context of your posts and the posts to which you replied isn't helping your claim to complete obedience to the Law's requirements.

Uh huh. The ENTIRE law. OK, tell me how you will keep laws only for women or for Priests? Hmmmm?

You replied

good grief man... they wouldn't apply to me cause I'm not a woman or a priest..... were the priest guilty of not keeping the "ENTIRE" law because they were men who didn't keep laws for women? smh

Your interlocutor replied

Good grief is right! Again I will remind you...YOU said the ENTIRE law..."all 613". That is what YOU said. Now you are revising your original claim. I am finished going in circles with your complete lack of knowledge regarding Torah...Shalom

And here is where my observation arises; keep all of the Law you say? Why then do you not offer sacrifice in Jerusalem's temple?

But you do not keep the entire law; you do not sacrifice a Passover lamb, nor make a sin offering, or offerings on the day of atonement, in fact it is very likely that you offer no lambs, goats, bulls, heifers for any sacrifices to YHWH your God despite YHWH's command that you are to do so.

So, I was in context, fully aware of your replies, and fully cognisant of the error present in your thesis.

 

[Doran]

Yes, under the dispensation of grace there is neither Jew or Greek etc, so a Jewish person believing in Jesus will effectively be a Christian currently.
However this is only until the rapture, which ends the dispensation of grace. I should have stated that in my earlier post. After that God will again be operating according to the old testament covenant He had with Israel which requires them to live according to the law of Moses.
I've been watching this series of videos, here is one of his shorter ones, 7.5mins. I have found his videos to be well thought out and presented & biblically based so, whilst I am examining his viewpoint closer as it may have merit.

The video titled: Hebrews through John - Written to the Church or Israel? is also a good one to watch

Okay....gotcha. I totally disagree about the "rapture". I assume you're a Dispensationalist? I am not. I hold to Historical Preterism (not to be confused with full preterism) and I'm undecided between Amillennialism and Postmillennialism. At any rate, eschatology is not a rabbit trail I want to go down. I will only say this: Jesus Christ himself is the embodiment of the eternal New Covenant (Isa 42:6; 49:8). There is no scripture that says that God will revert back to the Old Covenant that was useless, obsolete, outdated. a mere shadow of the Substance who is Christ, and has no glory compared to the New Covenant. It's obvious you (along with many others) make the classical mistake of interpreting the scriptures through the lens of OT prophecies, when in fact all the OT should be interpreted through the lens of the NT, since it's the New Covenant that fulfills all in the Old. The NC is concealed in the Old and the Old is fully revealed in the New, which is perfectly logical in the scheme of progressive revelation.

 

[Doran]

Yes, it SHOULD be understood by those that understand Torah, buy sadly that is not true for some here. So why is that a curve ball? Parents keep parts for them, such as circumcision, eating only kosher foods, etc. Parents teach children Torah. Torah would be kept fully at and after the age of reason. This is where the bar and bat mitzvah came from. Children begin learning Torah as soon as they are able. Halachically speaking, the obligation to start training children to do all mitzvot begins somewhere between the age of 6 and 9. We can't compare newborn infants to toddlers or older children, their needs and the what they absorb, comprehend and process are very different. The absurd literalism belongs to others here as I have shown.

Right. And those who understand the Torah understood that the LAW Covenant was to be kept perfectly.

 

[Doran]

Dispensationalism is a theological error because it contradicts the Catholic understanding of salvation history, the unity of God’s plan, the fulfilment of the Old Testament in Christ, and the continuity of Israel and the Church. Here are some reasons why:

• Dispensationalism divides history into different dispensations or periods in which God interacts with mankind in different ways. This implies that God changes his mind or his methods over time, which is incompatible with the Catholic belief that God is immutable and eternal. The Catholic Church teaches that God has one eternal plan of salvation that is gradually revealed and accomplished throughout history 1,2
• Dispensationalism interprets the Bible literally, especially the prophecies concerning Israel and the end times. This ignores the spiritual and allegorical sense of Scripture, which the Catholic Church affirms as a valid and necessary way of understanding God’s word. The Catholic Church teaches that the Old Testament should be read in the light of Christ, who is the fulfilment of the law and the prophets 3,4
• Dispensationalism makes a sharp distinction between Israel and the Church, and claims that God has different plans and promises for each of them. This denies the Catholic doctrine that the Church is the new Israel, the people of God, who inherit the blessings and covenants of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob through faith in Christ. The Catholic Church teaches that there is only one people of God, composed of Jews and Gentiles, who are united in Christ by baptism.
• Dispensationalism holds that the Church age is a parenthesis or interruption in God’s plan for Israel, and that God will resume his dealings with Israel after the rapture of the Church. This contradicts the Catholic view that the Church age is the last stage of salvation history, and that Christ will come again at the end of time to judge the living and the dead. The Catholic Church teaches that there is no secret rapture or tribulation before Christ’s second coming, but rather a final persecution and apostasy, followed by a universal conversion of Israel and all nations.

These are some of the main reasons why dispensationalism is a theological error from a Catholic perspective. I hope this helps you understand why Catholics reject this system of interpretation.

Well said!

 

[Sorn]

The NC is concealed in the Old and the Old is fully revealed in the New, which is perfectly logical in the scheme of progressive revelation.

No, the old testament said nothing about the new covenant, it knew nothing about it as nothing about had been reveled by God, that mystery was only revealed in the new testament.

 

[Doran]

No, the old testament said nothing about the new covenant, it knew nothing about it as nothing about had been reveled by God, that mystery was only revealed in the new testament.

Huh? You're kidding, right? See Jer 31:31-34; Ezek 36:24:32. Jesus fulfilled these prophecies at the Last Supper when he instituted the NC and then later when he ultimately ratified it in his own blood on the Cross. And the Ezekiel prophecy was fulfilled on Pentecost in Acts.

 

[Sorn]

Huh? You're kidding, right? See Jer 31:31-34; Ezek 36:24:32. Jesus fulfilled these prophecies at the Last Supper when he instituted the NC and then later when he ultimately ratified it in his own blood on the Cross. And the Ezekiel prophecy was fulfilled on Pentecost in Acts.

Yep, fair enough, I'll accept that. I was thinking more along the lines of the dispensation of grace to the gentiles rather then the new covenant with Israel

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

Right. And those who understand the Torah understood that the LAW Covenant was to be kept perfectly.

Meaning? Proverbs 22:6