Three Questions Relative to the 4th Commandment

[Xeno.of.athens]

To any and all sabbath day-keepers out there, I have three questions to which I would like to have answers:

1. Do I have to keep the 4th commandment faithfully in order to be saved? (Yes or No, please.)

2. Heb 7:12 speaks to a "change of law" that is necessary. Do any of you know what the new law is that replaced the old?

3. Can medical professionals who must work on the sabbath perform that good work for pay? (Yes or No, please.)

I am fairly sure that the Sabbath commandment is the third commandment,

Here is a list of the ten commandments:

1. I am the Lord your God: you shall not have strange gods before me. (Exodus 20:2-3)
2. You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain. (Exodus 20:7)
3. Remember to keep holy the Sabbath day. (Exodus 20:8-11)
4. Honour your father and your mother. (Exodus 20:12)
5. You shall not kill. (Exodus 20:13)
6. You shall not commit adultery. (Exodus 20:14)
7. You shall not steal. (Exodus 20:15)
8. You shall not bear false witness against your neighbour. (Exodus 20:16)
9. You shall not covet your neighbour’s wife. (Exodus 20:17)
10. You shall not covet your neighbour’s goods. (Exodus 20:17)

The Catholic Church numbering differs from the Protestant and Jewish numbering in two ways: it combines the first two commandments about idolatry and God’s name into one, and it splits the last commandment about coveting into two, one for the neighbour’s wife and one for the neighbour’s goods. The Catholic Church follows the tradition of Saint Augustine, who argued that the first commandment is about loving God above all things, and the last two commandments are about loving one’s neighbour as oneself. The Catholic Church also uses a slightly different version of the text from scripture, based on the Septuagint, which is a Greek translation of the Hebrew Scriptures that was widely used by the early Christians.

 

[Canuckster]

Again, that just shows your complete lack of understanding regarding Torah. Tell me HOW, just you, would obey the ENTIRE law...??? Remember, you said BACK IN THOSE DAYS. You can't use Matthew or Romans because they were not written yet. You have the TaNaKh, that's it...

I would keep the entire law by keeping it as it was delivered to me through Moses. I would also apply for minor duties like keeping the outside area of the Tabernacle tidy. I would be a very happy man.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

I would keep the entire law by keeping it as it was delivered to me through Moses. I would also apply for minor duties like keeping the outside area of the Tabernacle tidy. I would be a very happy man.

Uh huh. The ENTIRE law. OK, tell me how you will keep laws only for women or for Priests? Hmmmm?

 

[bbbbbbb]

Again, that just shows your complete lack of understanding regarding Torah. Tell me HOW, just you, would obey the ENTIRE law...??? Remember, you said BACK IN THOSE DAYS. You can't use Matthew or Romans because they were not written yet. You have the TaNaKh, that's it...

We are not living in those days, but these days. These days have been around about 2,000 years, during which we have seen the destruction of the Temple, the abolition of the sacrificial system, and the diaspora of the Hebrew people throughout the earth as well as the complete loss of the Levitical priesthood. For the observant Jew this is truly an insurmountable problem which various rabbis have struggled to redefine and reform. In my opinion, none of their solutions come remotely close to conforming to the Law as given by God to His people, Israel.

For the Messianic Jew (I am a Gentile, for the record) the problem is even more complex. On one hand, the atonement dilemma is solved in the person and work of Jesus the Messiah. On the other hand, that leaves all of the commandments which are unrelated to the atonement. As a result, the first council of the Christian assemblies was held in Jerusalem and was recorded in Acts 15. The issue at hand was what to do with Gentile converts which would eventually overwhelm Jewish believers. The outcome was quite surprising. Rather than bring the Gentiles into the covenant of Israel, as was traditional (and still is) in Judaism with circumcision for the men and obedience to the commandments, it was determined that circumcision was not required and that the dietary commandments were not necessary except for eating blood and things offered to idols.

Did that mean that Jewish believers were still obligated to the whole Law? What would happen if a Jewish believing man married a Gentile believing woman? Would their son need to be circumcised? Based on history, the very small numbers of Jewish converts over the centuries quickly amalgamated into the Gentile church.

For those Jewish believers who determined to continue to submit themselves to the Law it is an issue of relationship. Does a Jewish believer obey the Law in order to become righteous and holy or as a means of showing gratitude for God for His atoning gift of Jesus the Messiah? Practically, how does a Jewish believer keep the Law? Who does he give his tithes to, given the fact that God specifically commanded them to be given to the Levites and nobody else? How does he celebrate the commanded feasts? Where does he take his thank offerings?

 

[Doran]

So your solution to seeing 1 Cor 7:19 quoted is to call it nonsense?? seriously??


Read the actual text rather than asking me how it can exist. It makes the contrast whether you quote it or not.

How is this not the easy part??

You just did that very thing above.

My argument is to ACCEPT the text - it is you that are arguing against it.

How is this not obvious??

The text is making no such contrast between circumcision and the Torah. What the text is saying, however, is that circumcision is incompatible with the New Covenant. So, now we have no contradiction that your interpretation presents. How in the world could circumcision which, WAS COMMANDED IN THE TORAH, contradict the Torah!? The whole reason I asked the question was not because I was questioning the text but your absurd interpretation of the text. To borrow your own words: "How is this not obvious"?

 

[Doran]

Uh huh. The ENTIRE law. OK, tell me how you will keep laws only for women or for Priests? Hmmmm?

That's simple. Each gender keeps ALL the law that applies to that gender. I think this is kinda understood by most straight-thinking people.

Here, let me throw you another curve ball All Israel was commanded to keep the Torah. So would YOU understand this to mean that even infants or very small children who really have little or no concept of right and wrong were also required to keep the Law? Is there any end to your absurd literalism?

 

[Canuckster]

Uh huh. The ENTIRE law. OK, tell me how you will keep laws only for women or for Priests? Hmmmm?

good grief man... they wouldn't apply to me cause I'm not a woman or a priest..... were the priest guilty of not keeping the "ENTIRE" law because they were men who didn't keep laws for women? smh

 

[Doran]

I am fairly sure that the Sabbath commandment is the third commandment,

Here is a list of the ten commandments:

1. I am the Lord your God: you shall not have strange gods before me. (Exodus 20:2-3)
2. You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain. (Exodus 20:7)
3. Remember to keep holy the Sabbath day. (Exodus 20:8-11)
4. Honour your father and your mother. (Exodus 20:12)
5. You shall not kill. (Exodus 20:13)
6. You shall not commit adultery. (Exodus 20:14)
7. You shall not steal. (Exodus 20:15)
8. You shall not bear false witness against your neighbour. (Exodus 20:16)
9. You shall not covet your neighbour’s wife. (Exodus 20:17)
10. You shall not covet your neighbour’s goods. (Exodus 20:17)

The Catholic Church numbering differs from the Protestant and Jewish numbering in two ways: it combines the first two commandments about idolatry and God’s name into one, and it splits the last commandment about coveting into two, one for the neighbour’s wife and one for the neighbour’s goods. The Catholic Church follows the tradition of Saint Augustine, who argued that the first commandment is about loving God above all things, and the last two commandments are about loving one’s neighbour as oneself. The Catholic Church also uses a slightly different version of the text from scripture, based on the Septuagint, which is a Greek translation of the Hebrew Scriptures that was widely used by the early Christians.

Well...the RCC gets more than a few things wrong. But I do appreciate the info, for I was not aware that they got the "ten words" wrong, as well.

 

[Doran]

Mr.Ryan, sir, I want to add more insight to the circumcision issue that you say contradicts the Torah via 1Cor 7:19.

God took his commands very seriously and expected obedience. So much so that Moses came very close to losing his life simply because he delayed circumcising his son. If it weren't for his wife, he would have never made it to Egypt (Ex 4:24-26). Of course, adding that covenant ritual to the Torah was just another way of God showing that he meant business with that command that he originally gave to Abraham. See also Jn 7:23.

 

[BobRyan]

The text is making no such contrast between circumcision and the Torah.

The details show otherwise.

1 Cor 7:19
19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but what matters is the keeping of the commandments of God.

Where that writer (Paul) informs us that "the first commandment with a promise" is "Honor your father and mother" in that still-valid unit of TEN. Eph 6;2

so then the "Commandments of God " in 1 Cor 7:19 must include the TEN as affirmed in Eph 6:2.
And also the law regarding circumcision does not matter "is nothing" by comparison.

What the text is saying, however, is that circumcision is incompatible

There is no "circumcision is incompatible" statement there.

rather it says you are fine either way - it has no bearing on what matters because what matters is " keeping of the commandments of God.

Where that writer (Paul) informs us that "the first commandment with a promise" is "Honor your father and mother" in that still-valid unit of TEN. Eph 6;2

with the New Covenant.

The New Covenant is stated as writing the moral law of God known to Jeremiah and his readers on the heart and mind Jer 31:31-34

Your practice of referring to the New Covenant while never quoting it - is more transparent than you may have at first imagined to yourself.

If it is quoted for you .. will you then allow yourself to read the New Covenant??

31 “Behold, days are coming,” declares the Lord, “when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah, 32 not like the covenant which I made with their fathers on the day I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, although I was a husband to them,” declares the Lord. 33 “For this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days,” declares the Lord: “I will put My law within them and write it on their heart; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 34 They will not teach again, each one his neighbor and each one his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they will all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them,” declares the Lord, “for I will forgive their wrongdoing, and their sin I will no longer remember.”

It contains the four central promises of the ONE and only Gospel "preached to Abraham" Gal 3:8

(will be interesting to see if you can bring yourself to address the details in this direct quote of the Biblical New Covenant definition)

 

[BobRyan]

Mr.Ryan, sir, I want to add more insight to the circumcision issue that you say contradicts the Torah via 1Cor 7:19.

"circumcision contradicts the torah" is an example of "you" quoting "you".

Here we have you arguing the very odd position below that you then turn around and accuse me of promoting in the quote above.

Doran said:
What the text is saying, however, is that circumcision is incompatible

That looks like a very confused argument.

What the text is saying, however, is that circumcision is incompatible with the New Covenant.

Which is total nonsense since Paul in Acts 16 insists that Timothy be circumcised and since in 1 Cor 7:19 Paul does not say "circumcision is fatal to the New Covenant" but rather "is nothing".

In Acts 21 Paul is asked by Christian Jews to prove that the accusations against him are false - that say he is teaching Christian Jews not to circumcise their children.

Contrast that to Gal 4:8-11 where Paul actually DOES address a practice that is "not compatible with the New Covenant" - the practice of observing pagan holy days.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Well...the RCC gets more than a few things wrong. But I do appreciate the info, for I was not aware that they got the "ten words" wrong, as well.

The ten words are another name for the Ten Commandments, which are the moral laws given by God to Moses on Mount Sinai 1 The Catholic Church follows the division and numbering of the Ten Commandments established by St. Augustine, which is slightly different from other Christian traditions 2 Here are the Catholic Ten Commandments:

1. I am the Lord your God: you shall not have strange gods before me.
2. You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain.
3. Remember to keep holy the Sabbath day.
4. Honor your father and your mother.
5. You shall not kill.
6. You shall not commit adultery.
7. You shall not steal.
8. You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.
9. You shall not covet your neighbor’s wife.
10. You shall not covet your neighbor’s goods.

The Ten Commandments are a summary of the conditions of a life freed from the slavery of sin and express man’s fundamental duties to God and neighbour 2 They are also called the Decalogue, which means “ten words” in Greek 3.

The numbering of the Ten Commandments is an interesting topic that has been debated by different religious traditions and scholars. The Bible contains two versions of the Ten Commandments, one in Exodus 20:2-17 and the other in Deuteronomy 5:6-21. However, the text does not explicitly divide the commandments into ten groups, so different ways of counting and grouping them have emerged over time 1

One of the main differences is how to treat the first two commandments, which deal with the worship of God and the prohibition of idols. Some traditions, such as Judaism and some Protestant denominations, consider these as two separate commandments, while others, such as the Catholic Church and some Orthodox churches, combine them into one 2 Another difference is how to treat the last commandment, which forbids coveting. Some traditions, such as Judaism and some Protestant denominations, consider this as one commandment, while others, such as the Catholic Church and some Orthodox churches, split it into two, one for coveting the neighbour’s wife and another for coveting the neighbour’s property 2

The different ways of numbering the Ten Commandments reflect different emphases and interpretations of the biblical text. Some scholars have suggested that the original division of the commandments may have been based on a pattern of four commandments relating to God and six commandments relating to human relationships, or vice versa 3 Others have argued that the number ten may have been chosen for symbolic reasons, such as representing completeness or perfection 4 Still others have pointed out that there are more than ten commandments in the Bible, and that the Ten Commandments are only a summary of the moral law given by God to his people 5

Regardless of how they are numbered, the Ten Commandments are a foundational document for Judaism and Christianity, expressing God’s will and covenant with his people. They are also a source of inspiration and guidance for many people of different faiths and cultures. They are a testament to the universal values of justice, love, and respect that bind humanity together.

The Catholic numbering of the commandments is based on the division and interpretation of the biblical text by St. Augustine, one of the most influential Church Fathers in the fourth and fifth centuries 1,2 According to some sources, he followed the tradition of the Jewish philosopher Philo of Alexandria, who lived in the first century AD 3,2 Therefore, the Catholic numbering of the commandments can be traced back to the early centuries of Christianity, and possibly even to the time of Christ.

However, the Catholic numbering is not the only way to divide and interpret the commandments. Other Christian traditions, such as Judaism, Calvinism, and Anabaptism, have different ways of numbering and grouping the commandments, based on their own understanding of the biblical text and its context 1,4,3 These differences reflect different emphases and perspectives on the moral law given by God to his people.

The Catholic Church does not claim that its numbering of the commandments is the only valid or correct one. Rather, it recognizes that the commandments are a summary of the whole law, which is fulfilled by Christ and expressed in his two great commandments: love God and love your neighbor 1,5 The Catholic Church teaches that all Christians are bound by the same moral law, regardless of how they number or group the commandments 5

I hope this comment helps you understand the history and theology of the Catholic numbering of the commandments. If you have any other questions or comments, please feel free to share them with me. I enjoy chatting with you.

 

[BobRyan]

The ten words are another name for the Ten Commandments, which are the moral laws given by God to Moses on Mount Sinai 1 The Catholic Church follows the division and numbering of the Ten Commandments established by St. Augustine, which is slightly different from other Christian traditions 2 Here are the Catholic Ten Commandments:

1. I am the Lord your God: you shall not have strange gods before me.
2. You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain.
3. Remember to keep holy the Sabbath day.
4. Honor your father and your mother.
5. You shall not kill.
6. You shall not commit adultery.
7. You shall not steal.
8. You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.
9. You shall not covet your neighbor’s wife.
10. You shall not covet your neighbor’s goods.

I have been asked several times about the Catholic Bible and the TEN commandments. I keep reminding people that the Catholic ten commandments in Exodus 20 are exactly the same as what we find in the non-Catholic Bibles for Exodus 20. The Bible translations don't number the Ten Commandments.

But in the catholic catechism you find a numbering that is not the same as the one that the Jews use for Exodus 20, and the numbering that the Jews use is the same one as the Protestants use.

The Ten Commandments are a summary of the conditions of a life freed from the slavery of sin and express man’s fundamental duties to God and neighbour 2 They are also called the Decalogue, which means “ten words” in Greek 3.

 

[bbbbbbb]

The ten words are another name for the Ten Commandments, which are the moral laws given by God to Moses on Mount Sinai 1 The Catholic Church follows the division and numbering of the Ten Commandments established by St. Augustine, which is slightly different from other Christian traditions 2 Here are the Catholic Ten Commandments:

1. I am the Lord your God: you shall not have strange gods before me.
2. You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain.
3. Remember to keep holy the Sabbath day.
4. Honor your father and your mother.
5. You shall not kill.
6. You shall not commit adultery.
7. You shall not steal.
8. You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.
9. You shall not covet your neighbor’s wife.
10. You shall not covet your neighbor’s goods.

The Ten Commandments are a summary of the conditions of a life freed from the slavery of sin and express man’s fundamental duties to God and neighbour 2 They are also called the Decalogue, which means “ten words” in Greek 3.

The numbering of the Ten Commandments is an interesting topic that has been debated by different religious traditions and scholars. The Bible contains two versions of the Ten Commandments, one in Exodus 20:2-17 and the other in Deuteronomy 5:6-21. However, the text does not explicitly divide the commandments into ten groups, so different ways of counting and grouping them have emerged over time 1

One of the main differences is how to treat the first two commandments, which deal with the worship of God and the prohibition of idols. Some traditions, such as Judaism and some Protestant denominations, consider these as two separate commandments, while others, such as the Catholic Church and some Orthodox churches, combine them into one 2 Another difference is how to treat the last commandment, which forbids coveting. Some traditions, such as Judaism and some Protestant denominations, consider this as one commandment, while others, such as the Catholic Church and some Orthodox churches, split it into two, one for coveting the neighbour’s wife and another for coveting the neighbour’s property 2

The different ways of numbering the Ten Commandments reflect different emphases and interpretations of the biblical text. Some scholars have suggested that the original division of the commandments may have been based on a pattern of four commandments relating to God and six commandments relating to human relationships, or vice versa 3 Others have argued that the number ten may have been chosen for symbolic reasons, such as representing completeness or perfection 4 Still others have pointed out that there are more than ten commandments in the Bible, and that the Ten Commandments are only a summary of the moral law given by God to his people 5

Regardless of how they are numbered, the Ten Commandments are a foundational document for Judaism and Christianity, expressing God’s will and covenant with his people. They are also a source of inspiration and guidance for many people of different faiths and cultures. They are a testament to the universal values of justice, love, and respect that bind humanity together.

The Catholic numbering of the commandments is based on the division and interpretation of the biblical text by St. Augustine, one of the most influential Church Fathers in the fourth and fifth centuries 1,2 According to some sources, he followed the tradition of the Jewish philosopher Philo of Alexandria, who lived in the first century AD 3,2 Therefore, the Catholic numbering of the commandments can be traced back to the early centuries of Christianity, and possibly even to the time of Christ.

However, the Catholic numbering is not the only way to divide and interpret the commandments. Other Christian traditions, such as Judaism, Calvinism, and Anabaptism, have different ways of numbering and grouping the commandments, based on their own understanding of the biblical text and its context 1,4,3 These differences reflect different emphases and perspectives on the moral law given by God to his people.

The Catholic Church does not claim that its numbering of the commandments is the only valid or correct one. Rather, it recognizes that the commandments are a summary of the whole law, which is fulfilled by Christ and expressed in his two great commandments: love God and love your neighbor 1,5 The Catholic Church teaches that all Christians are bound by the same moral law, regardless of how they number or group the commandments 5

I hope this comment helps you understand the history and theology of the Catholic numbering of the commandments. If you have any other questions or comments, please feel free to share them with me. I enjoy chatting with you.

Thank you for the very helpful and pertinent information. It is much appreciated!

 

[Doran]

The ten words are another name for the Ten Commandments, which are the moral laws given by God to Moses on Mount Sinai 1 The Catholic Church follows the division and numbering of the Ten Commandments established by St. Augustine, which is slightly different from other Christian traditions 2 Here are the Catholic Ten Commandments:

1. I am the Lord your God: you shall not have strange gods before me.
2. You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain.
3. Remember to keep holy the Sabbath day.
4. Honor your father and your mother.
5. You shall not kill.
6. You shall not commit adultery.
7. You shall not steal.
8. You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.
9. You shall not covet your neighbor’s wife.
10. You shall not covet your neighbor’s goods.

The Ten Commandments are a summary of the conditions of a life freed from the slavery of sin and express man’s fundamental duties to God and neighbour 2 They are also called the Decalogue, which means “ten words” in Greek 3.

The numbering of the Ten Commandments is an interesting topic that has been debated by different religious traditions and scholars. The Bible contains two versions of the Ten Commandments, one in Exodus 20:2-17 and the other in Deuteronomy 5:6-21. However, the text does not explicitly divide the commandments into ten groups, so different ways of counting and grouping them have emerged over time 1

One of the main differences is how to treat the first two commandments, which deal with the worship of God and the prohibition of idols. Some traditions, such as Judaism and some Protestant denominations, consider these as two separate commandments, while others, such as the Catholic Church and some Orthodox churches, combine them into one 2 Another difference is how to treat the last commandment, which forbids coveting. Some traditions, such as Judaism and some Protestant denominations, consider this as one commandment, while others, such as the Catholic Church and some Orthodox churches, split it into two, one for coveting the neighbour’s wife and another for coveting the neighbour’s property 2

The different ways of numbering the Ten Commandments reflect different emphases and interpretations of the biblical text. Some scholars have suggested that the original division of the commandments may have been based on a pattern of four commandments relating to God and six commandments relating to human relationships, or vice versa 3 Others have argued that the number ten may have been chosen for symbolic reasons, such as representing completeness or perfection 4 Still others have pointed out that there are more than ten commandments in the Bible, and that the Ten Commandments are only a summary of the moral law given by God to his people 5

Regardless of how they are numbered, the Ten Commandments are a foundational document for Judaism and Christianity, expressing God’s will and covenant with his people. They are also a source of inspiration and guidance for many people of different faiths and cultures. They are a testament to the universal values of justice, love, and respect that bind humanity together.

The Catholic numbering of the commandments is based on the division and interpretation of the biblical text by St. Augustine, one of the most influential Church Fathers in the fourth and fifth centuries 1,2 According to some sources, he followed the tradition of the Jewish philosopher Philo of Alexandria, who lived in the first century AD 3,2 Therefore, the Catholic numbering of the commandments can be traced back to the early centuries of Christianity, and possibly even to the time of Christ.

However, the Catholic numbering is not the only way to divide and interpret the commandments. Other Christian traditions, such as Judaism, Calvinism, and Anabaptism, have different ways of numbering and grouping the commandments, based on their own understanding of the biblical text and its context 1,4,3 These differences reflect different emphases and perspectives on the moral law given by God to his people.

The Catholic Church does not claim that its numbering of the commandments is the only valid or correct one. Rather, it recognizes that the commandments are a summary of the whole law, which is fulfilled by Christ and expressed in his two great commandments: love God and love your neighbor 1,5 The Catholic Church teaches that all Christians are bound by the same moral law, regardless of how they number or group the commandments 5

I hope this comment helps you understand the history and theology of the Catholic numbering of the commandments. If you have any other questions or comments, please feel free to share them with me. I enjoy chatting with you.

This is the fascinating anomaly about the Ten Commandments: They actually do not summarize the Law of Moses per se. For one thing, there are numerous other "moral" commandments that did not make it into the Decalogue. A second interesting fact is that the 9 of the 10 commandments are negative imperatives, and these 9 are not sufficient in and of themselves to save anyone even if they could be obeyed perfectly for the "law of love" (as well as the "golden rule" _) is positive and, therefore, proactive calling for God's people to actively serve God and our fellow man. The ultimate end of positive laws is to do good to our neighbor. Therefore, positive laws go far beyond mere abstaining from evil, which have as their end, "Don't do unto others what you don't want them to do unto you". And lastly, these positive commandments actually sum up the entire OT, i.e. The Law and the The Prophets. Since the entire OT hangs on the hinges of the Two Greatest Commandments, this clearly speaks to their transcendence. Also, love has existed as long as God has! This is why it is the greatest virtue of them all and will never fail.

 

[Valletta]

Well...the RCC gets more than a few things wrong. But I do appreciate the info, for I was not aware that they got the "ten words" wrong, as well.

Understand that there is no punctuation in Holy Scripture text, and how to group the text into ten cannot be definitively determined. The Catholic Catechism includes the entire text of the Ten Commandments from the Bible and shows how the Church decided to break the commandments into ten. There is no right or wrong to the groupings.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Here is how one numbers the commandments.

Deuteronomy 5:1 Here, then, Moses called the whole of Israel together, and said to them, Listen, Israel, to the observances and the decrees I now proclaim in your hearing; learn them well, and live by them.
I

2 When we were at Horeb, the Lord our God made a covenant with us,​

3 such a covenant as he never made with our fathers, but kept it for us, who stand here, living men, to-day. ✻​

The sense would seem to be that God’s covenant was made for the benefit of Moses’ immediate hearers, not for that of their fathers, who were now dead in the wilderness.​

4 Face to face he spoke with us on the mountain, out of the flames;​

5 and yet I must be your representative all the while, a mediator between the Lord and you to tell you what his commands were, such dread of those fires kept you back from the hill-side.​

6 And thus he spoke: I am the Lord thy God, it was I who rescued thee from the land of Egypt, where thou didst dwell in slavery.​

7 Thou shalt not defy me by making other gods thy own.​

8 Thou shalt not carve thyself images, or fashion the likeness of anything in heaven above, or on earth beneath, or in the waters at the roots of earth,​

9 to bow down and worship it. I, thy God, the Lord Almighty, am jealous in my love; be my enemy, and thy children, to the third and fourth generation, shall make amends;​

10 love me, keep my commandments, and mercy shall be thine a thousand-fold.​

II

11 Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God lightly on thy lips; if a man uses that name lightly, he will not go unpunished.​

III

12 Observe the sabbath day and keep it holy, as the Lord thy God has bidden thee.​

13 Six days for drudgery, for doing all the work thou hast to do;​

14 when the seventh day comes, it is a sabbath, a day of rest, consecrated to the Lord thy God. That day, all work shall be at an end, for thee and for every son and daughter of thine, thy servants and serving-women, thy ass, too, and thy ox, and all thy beasts, and the aliens that live within thy city walls. It must bring rest to thy men-servants and thy maid-servants, as to thyself.​

15 Remember that thou too wast a slave in Egypt; what constraining force the Lord used, what a display he made of his power, to rescue thee; and now he will have thee keep this day of rest.​

IV

16 Honour thy father and thy mother, as the Lord God has bidden thee; so shalt thou live long to enjoy the land which the Lord thy God means to give thee.​

V

17 Thou shalt do no murder.​

VI

18 Thou shalt not commit adultery.​

VII

19 Thou shalt not steal.​

VIII

20 Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.​

IX

21 Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour’s wife.​

X

Thou shalt not set thy heart upon thy neighbour’s house or lands, his servants or handmaids, an ox or ass or anything that is his.​

✻​

See Ex. 20.2-17. The commandment which forbids a man to covet his neighbour’s wife here precedes all the other regulations about covetousness and is divided off from them in the Hebrew text as a separate commandment.​

 

[Doran]

The details show otherwise.

1 Cor 7:19
19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but what matters is the keeping of the commandments of God.

Where that writer (Paul) informs us that "the first commandment with a promise" is "Honor your father and mother" in that still-valid unit of TEN. Eph 6;2

so then the "Commandments of God " in 1 Cor 7:19 must include the TEN as affirmed in Eph 6:2.
And also the law regarding circumcision does not matter "is nothing" by comparison.


There is no "circumcision is incompatible" statement there.

rather it says you are fine either way - it has no bearing on what matters because what matters is " keeping of the commandments of God.

Where that writer (Paul) informs us that "the first commandment with a promise" is "Honor your father and mother" in that still-valid unit of TEN. Eph 6;2

The New Covenant is stated as writing the moral law of God known to Jeremiah and his readers on the heart and mind Jer 31:31-34

First off Eph 6:2 has no bearing on 1Cor 7:19. What you're doing is classical scripture twisting which the cults are infamously notorious for doing. They like to pair up an irrelevant passage or two with the primary text being discussed in order to try to get scripture to support some presupposition. By pairing up Eph 6:2 to the above passage, you're trying to limit the scope of the Torah to just the "ten words" that God writes on the hearts of his NC people. Yet, as I have pointed out recently, no Jew would have ever understood the Torah to apply to just the 10 commandments. Yes, they understood Torah in a limited and broad sense, e.g. Pentateuch and the Jewish Canon, respectively. Research the matter out for yourself by visiting Jewish websites.

Since what I have just stated above about the Jewish understanding of "Torah" is true, then Jer 31:33 must be interpreted in light of NC revelation. It would be patently absurd to understand the text, as the original audience of Jeremiah would have, since they weren't privy to the NT scriptures. If the entire Torah was to be written on the hearts of NC believers, then why is so much of it irrelevant today, e.g. ceremonial laws, dietary laws and civil laws? But the writer of Hebrews got it right because in quoting Jer 31, he also tells us that the "first" covenant of law is obsolete, out-dated, useless, getting ready to disappear (8:13), was set aside in order to establish the "second" (10:9), that the second is a better covenant established on better promises (7:22; 8:6), and that first is a mere shadow of the good things that are coming (10:1) Obviously, the "first" covenant has served its purpose and gives way to the "second" covenant with all its better promises, plus the second is totally UNLIKE the first! Jesus was very eschatologically conscious during his ministry and even "distanced" himself and his disciples from the Law Covenant with an interesting choice of pronouns relative to the Law late in his ministry (Jn 10:34; 15:25).

Since the Old Covenant is no longer valid, then there is only one way to understand the phrase "keeping of the commandments of God" in 1Cor 7:19. What you utterly fail to see is that God did not only speak Moses "face to face" when He gave the prophet his laws and commandments, but in THESE LATTER DAYS God has spoken again to his covenant people through a better Prophet -- his Son (Deut 18:15; Heb 1:2; Mat 17:5; Jn 1:17-18; 15:15, etc.). Jesus was not only God's Prophet but was/is the very God of God! Therefore, "the commandments of God" are the commandments Christ gave to his disciples and to his Church by the Holy Spirit from Pentecost to the close of the NT canon.

Now I suppose you're wondering what are these "commandments" or laws? I have been asking for the longest time what "law" has replaced the Law of Moses and no one had any answer. Well, how 'bout these "laws":

1. Law of Christ (Isa 42:4; 1Cor 9:21; Gal 6:2; 2Jn 9)
2. Law of Liberty (Jas 1:25; 2:12)
3. Perfect Law (Jas 1:25)
4. Law of Faith (Rom 3:27)

And don't think for a moment that the Law of Liberty = Law of Moses, since this latter was considered to be a yoke of slavery (Gal 5:1) and puts people in bondage to sin because the law is the power of sin (Rom 6:14; 7:5; 1Cor 15:56). Rather, the Law of Liberty is the "principle" of liberty which is TRUTH, for truth sets free those in bondage (Jn 8:32) -- something the Law of Moses could never do!

As far as Christ's Law being written on the hearts of His NC people is concerned, we could biblically sum up His Law as being the Two Greatest Commandments, could we not? Since Love can only do what is right, it can never do wrong (Rom 13:10). See how easy it is to replace the 10 with just 2?

With all due respect, Mr.Ryan, I have been studying the covenants intensely for nearly 20 years. I know exactly how the NC differs from the Old, and in HOW many ways. And I know virtually all, if not all, the things that really are NEW in the New Covenant. Can you make such a claim? Can you, for example, name four specific teachings of Jesus that are not found anywhere in the OT? Can you can give us just ten biblical limitations to the Law of Moses? Can you give just 10 new things that are pertinent to just the NC? Can you give me just 10 ways Truth is superior to the Ten Commandments? Can you give me just 10 ways Love is superior to all the Law of Moses? If you knew the covenants so well, sir, you would know that God never amends any of his covenants. But God did promise to REPLACE a covenant with a new one, since he knew his Son would fulfill the old one fully.

I have no doubt whatsoever that "the law" that God promised to put in the minds and hearts of his people in Jer 31:33 fulfilled the prophecy in Isa 42:4.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

We are not living in those days, but these days. These days have been around about 2,000 years, during which we have seen the destruction of the Temple, the abolition of the sacrificial system, and the diaspora of the Hebrew people throughout the earth as well as the complete loss of the Levitical priesthood. For the observant Jew this is truly an insurmountable problem which various rabbis have struggled to redefine and reform. In my opinion, none of their solutions come remotely close to conforming to the Law as given by God to His people, Israel.

For the Messianic Jew (I am a Gentile, for the record) the problem is even more complex. On one hand, the atonement dilemma is solved in the person and work of Jesus the Messiah. On the other hand, that leaves all of the commandments which are unrelated to the atonement. As a result, the first council of the Christian assemblies was held in Jerusalem and was recorded in Acts 15. The issue at hand was what to do with Gentile converts which would eventually overwhelm Jewish believers. The outcome was quite surprising. Rather than bring the Gentiles into the covenant of Israel, as was traditional (and still is) in Judaism with circumcision for the men and obedience to the commandments, it was determined that circumcision was not required and that the dietary commandments were not necessary except for eating blood and things offered to idols.

From your questions, I am not sure if you have been following the discussion. My comments were ONLY regarding what Canukster claimed. the claim was FOR THOSE DAYS...NOT these days. As I said REPEATEDLY, one can ONLY keep what can be kept...period. ACTS 15 was regarding the Noahide laws. That would be what should be kept for a ger toshav.
Shavuah tov

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

good grief man... they wouldn't apply to me cause I'm not a woman or a priest..... were the priest guilty of not keeping the "ENTIRE" law because they were men who didn't keep laws for women? smh

Good grief is right! Again I will remind you...YOU said the ENTIRE law..."all 613". That is what YOU said. Now you are revising your original claim. I am finished going in circles with your complete lack of knowledge regarding Torah...Shalom