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Three Questions Relative to the 4th Commandment

Doran

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it is not an excuse lol, that is history! According to you, the law could not be kept after the Temple was destroyed. No one can keep the whole law. You can only keep what applies. You would know that if you knew Torah...but you don't...
No, it's an excuse. The fact that no one can keep the whole law doesn't change another fact: Complete and Total Obeidence to the Torah was required if one hoped to see God. The Torah was essentially summed up this way by Paul: Do this and live (Gal 3:10-12) Wow! And he didn't limit the curse to only those vaunted Ten Words. He included the whole Book of the Law -- you know the 613 commandments!
 
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Doran

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First of all - you have Col 2:13-15 wrong.

Prove it. Exegete the passage. Give us your understanding of it.
Secondly gentiles were never charged with "sin" for failing to keep one of the ceremonial laws or one of the civil laws of the nation of Israel... it is only the moral laws of the TEN and of similar commandments that are condemning gentiles as sinners. This is a "basic" teaching for Rom 3, Rom 7 etc.
What's your point? Did I ever say Gentiles were charged?
Acts 15 makes it clear for example that the law of circumcision which had never been applied to gentiles in the OT could not simply be "made up for gentiles" ad hoc in the NT by zealous Jewish Christians. (Notice that not even non-Christian Jews were doing that in the case of gentiles).
Oh...you mean like the sabbath was never given to the Gentiles either in the OT, except of course to the foreigners who resided with the Jews in the LAND?
 
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BobRyan

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Oh...you mean like the sabbath was never given to the Gentiles either in the OT
In the OT
1. Gentiles specifically singled out for Sabbath keeping Is 56:6-8
2. ALL MANKIND to keep Sabbath for all eternity after the cross in the New Earth.

So UNLIKE circumcision that was NOT required of gentiles and never said that "if gentiles are not circumcised they cannot be saved" which is the very "made up stuff" the Christian Jews were doing regarding gentiles in Acts 15:1-2.

Turns out - Bible details do matter.
 
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Yeshua HaDerekh

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No, it's an excuse. The fact that no one can keep the whole law doesn't change another fact: Complete and Total Obeidence to the Torah was required if one hoped to see God. The Torah was essentially summed up this way by Paul: Do this and live (Gal 3:10-12) Wow! And he didn't limit the curse to only those vaunted Ten Words. He included the whole Book of the Law -- you know the 613 commandments!
No it isn't an excuse...that just shows your lack of understanding regarding Torah. You never even answered my point that proves you wrong. All 613? OK, next time you have to follow the laws of menstruation, let me know lol!
 
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Doran

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In the OT
1. Gentiles specifically singled out for Sabbath keeping Is 56:6-8
Exactly. Which is right in accordance with the 4th commandment. Read it someday with the intention of understanding ALL of it. Also, even v.6 talks about proselytes or eunuchs who hold fast to God's covenant, i.e. the Mosaic Covenant that no longer exists.
2. ALL MANKIND to keep Sabbath for all eternity after the cross in the New Earth.
Exactly. Because that will be the culmination of the antitype, which Christ himself inaugurated, since he himself gives the REST that actually saves; whereas the sabbath rest, just like the entire Covenant Law of Moses, could not save.
So UNLIKE circumcision that was NOT required of gentiles and never said that "if gentiles are not circumcised they cannot be saved" which is the very "made up stuff" the Christian Jews were doing regarding gentiles in Acts 15:1-2.

Turns out - Bible details do matter.
Except when they don't. Deut 4:2; 12:32 put a big crimp in the heresy of sabbath keeping.
 
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Doran

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No it isn't an excuse...that just shows your lack of understanding regarding Torah. You never even answered my point that proves you wrong. All 613? OK, next time you have to follow the laws of menstruation, let me know lol!
Yeah...what part of Gal 3:10-12, don't you get? And how insanely absurd are you going to stoop to tell us that that commandments that were gender-specific didn't have to be obeyed by the opposite sex? I think the context of those kinds of commandments speak well to their limited gender application. (I mean were females required to obey Lev 12:2-3?) :rolleyes: But regardless of that, the entire Law of Moses required perfect obedience. If you knew the Torah you would know that. Don't you even realize that Paul was quoting the Torah in the above passage in both its narrow and broad sense (Deut 27:26; Jer 11:3)!?

And what "point" of yours didn't I answer? History!? We're not talking history, we're talking Law.
 
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Sorn

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To any and all sabbath day-keepers out there, I have three questions to which I would like to have answers:

1. Do I have to keep the 4th commandment faithfully in order to be saved? (Yes or No, please.)

2. Heb 7:12 speaks to a "change of law" that is necessary. Do any of you know what the new law is that replaced the old?

3. Can medical professionals who must work on the sabbath perform that good work for pay? (Yes or No, please.)
NO you do not have to keep the 4th commandment unless you are a devout Jew. Its a Jewish law or commandment, part of the law the Jews live under, not Gentiles.
 
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Doran

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Brief Commentary on Rom 7:1-6

Rom 7:1-6
7:1 Do you not know, brothers — for I am speaking to men who know the law — that the law has authority over a man only as long as he lives? 2 For example, by law a married woman is bound to her husband as long as he is alive, but if her husband dies, she is released from the law of marriage. 3 So then, if she marries another man while her husband is still alive, she is called an adulteress. But if her husband dies, she is released from that law and is not an adulteress, even though she marries another man.

4 So, my brothers, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, that you might belong to another, to him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit to God. 5 For when we were controlled by the sinful nature, the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in our bodies, so that we bore fruit for death. 6 But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.

NIV

To state the obvious we have another Pauline analogy here. The analogy begins from a very specific category of law regarding marriage but then it's extended out to encompass the entire law. However, v.1 is the huge tip off that the Law only applies to the LIVING. Deceased, rotting corpses are not bound by the Law Covenant -- just to state the obvious. So, this is where Paul is going with this analogy. The Law only applies to the living.

From vv.4-6, it should also be understood that Paul, in using this marriage metaphor, is alluding to any number of passages in the OT and New (cf. Jer 3:14, 20; Ezek 16:32; Mat 9:15; 25:1; 5-6, 10 etc.).

Verse 4 begins the second half of the analogy. When YHWH took Israel as his "wife", he bound her to his Law Covenant. If Israel was to have this "marriage" relationship with YHWH, it would have to be according to the terms of his Covenant -- a covenant to which she willingly consented to obey!

Ex 19:5-8
5 Now if you obey me fully and keep my covenant, then out of all nations you will be my treasured possession. Although the whole earth is mine, 6 you will be for me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation....'7 So Moses went back and summoned the elders of the people and set before them all the words the LORD had commanded him to speak. 8 The people all responded together, "We will do everything the LORD has said." So Moses brought their answer back to the LORD.
NIV

Note carefully from the above passage that obedience to Law was inextricably tied to keeping God's Covenant! Obedience to Law is synonymous with keeping the covenant! Law and Covenant are one and the same; for the Law is precisely a Covenant (cp Jer 11:1-3, 6, 10; Deut 31:16; . This truth should help all to understand a text like Heb 7:12 which talks about a "change of law". A change of law necessarily REQUIRES a change in covenant! For the law covenant itself cannot be amended! In fact, there is not one single instance in all the bible of God ever amending any covenant he made with anyone!

Secondly, to be "wedded" to YHWH was to be wedded to his Law Covenant! And as we can see, Israel (and ONLY Israel) agreed to abide by the terms of the "marriage agreement". I say all this to give a little historical backdrop to the marriage metaphor that Paul is using so that we can understand his rationale behind it. We mustn't forget that the Gentiles were EXCLUDED from the covenants (Eph 2:12; Rom 9:4-5).

What Paul says from vv.4-6 is that because believers [spiritually] participate in the death of their Savior by BEING IN HIM (just as we also participate in his resurrection!) and have died to the Law Covenant (v.4), we can now belong to ANOTHER, i.e. to Christ who just happens to be the mediator of a better covenant (i.e. A NEW LAW) founded on better promises (Heb 8:6; 9;15). And we have to DIE to the Mosaic Law and its works if we want to be justified by Grace. We can't have it both ways. Law and Grace are incompatible, as are Law and the Spirit. The Law stirred up sinful passions, which is precisely why Paul elsewhere said that "the power of sin is the Law" (1Cor 15:56). We cannot serve the Law and the Spirit. They are mutually exclusive! Notice what Paul does NOT say in this passage: He doesn't say that we serve the Law (or the written code) through the Spirit. And he makes this abundantly clear in v.6.

In verse 6 Paul says that "by dying to what ONCE BOUND us..." PAST TENSE! This means there is only bondage and servitude in the Law of Moses; for the written code has no power to free anyone from sin. In fact, the law only aggravates and exacerbates the sinful flesh (v.5) Only Gospel Truth can set us free (Jn 8:32). Grace and Truth is what Jesus brought to the world stage; whereas Moses brought Law that can only condemn us, bind us, enslave us, arouse sinful passions, etc. This truth alone confirms what I said recently about Jn 1:17 in that the apostle was implying powerful and profound contrasts between Moses and his ministry of death, i.e. the Law (2Cor 3:7) and Jesus and his ministry of Grace and Truth, i.e. Life (Jn 3:15-15; 4:14; 5:21, 24; 6:63, etc.)

Verse 6 goes on to say that believers are RELEASED from the Law. Or as Paul said later in this epistle, "Christ is the END of the Law for all those who believe" (Rom 10:4). He fulfilled the Law perfectly and completely. Something none of us can do. The whole purpose to the Law was so that the Last Adam could do what the First Adam, and all his progeny, failed to do. Can it possibly get any plainer than this analogy!?

To conclude: If a believer participates in Christ's death, burial and resurrection, that believer is no longer bound to the Law Covenant. He's been released from it in order to be "wedded" or "in-lawed" to Christ -- the Bridegroom of the Church. It's not possible to be wedded to Him and the Law; for only He fulfilled the Law. We cannot add anything to his finished work. Christ and He alone fulfilled the ultimate purpose of the Law. Of course, this doesn't mean that we're lawless; but it does mean we're under a different covenant and different law -- another "law-covenant" but one that intently focuses on issues of the heart. For the condition of one's heart will determine the character of his lifestyle in his every thought, word and deed.

Also, we should not forget the first half of the analogy whereby the woman whose husband died is "released" from the law. Because she's been released, she is now FREE to marry another. Therefore, when a believer realizes he's been released from the Law, he soon discovers that he's now FREE to serve Christ, i.e. "walk in the newness of [Christ's resurrected] life (Rom 6:4). Just another little "factoid" to add to all the other many NEW spiritual elements to the New Covenant. Therefore, being released from and not bound to the Law is just to say that believers have been set free FROM the Law which makes us free TO serve Christ.
 
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Doran

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NO you do not have to keep the 4th commandment unless you are a devout Jew. Its a Jewish law or commandment, part of the law the Jews live under, not Gentiles.
Hmm...so will a devout Jew be saved by keeping sabbath?
 
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Sorn

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Hmm...so will a devout Jew be saved by keeping sabbath?
A devout Jew needs to do 4 things to be saved:
Repent of their sins
Believe Jesus Christ is the Messiah
Be baptised
Live according to the Jewish laws (law of Moses), which includes observing the Sabbath (ie their works)
 
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bbbbbbb

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A devout Jew needs to do 4 things to be saved:
Repent of their sins
Believe Jesus Christ is the Messiah
Be baptised
Live according to the Jewish laws (law of Moses), which includes observing the Sabbath (ie their works)
What about a devout Jew who has availed himself of the mikvah already? Does he need to be baptized yet again?
 
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pasifika

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To any and all sabbath day-keepers out there, I have three questions to which I would like to have answers:

1. Do I have to keep the 4th commandment faithfully in order to be saved? (Yes or No, please.)

2. Heb 7:12 speaks to a "change of law" that is necessary. Do any of you know what the new law is that replaced the old?

3. Can medical professionals who must work on the sabbath perform that good work for pay? (Yes or No, please.)
Hi, I'm not 7th day Sabbath follower but those questions are very good questions.

First, the 4th commandment is not meant to be kept "faithful" under the Old Covenant. But you can keep it through Faith under the NC. (This will need more clarification)

Second, the change of Law is from the law that requires "works" from OC to the law that requires "Faith" of New Covenant. This indicates by New High Priest, New temple, New mediator etc in the book of Hebrews

Third, I think doing good on the Sabbath is not meant to be an obligation But a gift you give to those who needs it. Only God is good and if He dwells in You then you can do good works.
 
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Yeshua HaDerekh

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Yeah...what part of Gal 3:10-12, don't you get? And how insanely absurd are you going to stoop to tell us that that commandments that were gender-specific didn't have to be obeyed by the opposite sex? I think the context of those kinds of commandments speak well to their limited gender application. (I mean were females required to obey Lev 12:2-3?) :rolleyes: But regardless of that, the entire Law of Moses required perfect obedience. If you knew the Torah you would know that. Don't you even realize that Paul was quoting the Torah in the above passage in both its narrow and broad sense (Deut 27:26; Jer 11:3)!?

And what "point" of yours didn't I answer? History!? We're not talking history, we're talking Law.
I understand that passage fully but it is very evident you do not. Well what you have been saying is so absurd that is what you get! First you claim that the entire law has to be obeyed. I say you can only obey those that apply. You say it is absurd. And after all of that you double down and once again say "the entire Law of Moses required perfect obedience. If you knew the Torah you would know that." LOL! You are so out of your element regarding Torah it is not even funny...it is sad.
 
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Doran

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A devout Jew needs to do 4 things to be saved:
Repent of their sins
Believe Jesus Christ is the Messiah
Be baptised
Live according to the Jewish laws (law of Moses), which includes observing the Sabbath (ie their works)
Really? So, Jesus had two plans of salvation: One for the Jews and one for the Gentiles? Grace through faith and works for Jews, and Grace through faith for the Gentiles? And here I've been thinking all along that in this New Covenant dispensation there is neither Jew or Greek...
 
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Doran

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I understand that passage fully but it is very evident you do not. Well what you have been saying is so absurd that is what you get! First you claim that the entire law has to be obeyed. I say you can only obey those that apply. You say it is absurd. And after all of that you double down and once again say "the entire Law of Moses required perfect obedience. If you knew the Torah you would know that." LOL! You are so out of your element regarding Torah it is not even funny...it is sad.
You're out of your element understanding the scriptures. If certain laws cannot be obeyed due to historic events and at the same time the Torah teaches that the Law Covenant CANNOT be amended for any reason then that presents no small theological problem for people who on this side of the Cross have one foot in the Old Covenant and the other one in the New simultaneously. It seems that an all-knowing God would have taken HIS own redemptive history into account when he inspired Moses to write Deut 4:2; 12:32. Or maybe God had a cerebral seizure and just plain forgot about the little detail like the future. But much more likely, the one who suffers from that kind of affliction is the one who cannot understand this theological dilemma.

And, yes, the entire Law of Moses requiref perfect obedience...er by both sexes. Males had to obey all that applies to them and females had to obey all that applies to them. And all the gender-neutral commandments had to be obeyed fully by both.
 
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Canuckster

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First you claim that the entire law has to be obeyed. I say you can only obey those that apply.
That’s what you say, but that wasn’t what God said. If I was living back in those days, I would obey the entire law. You know why???? Because during that time, the Lord was ruler and King of Israel, He promised to all that He would take care of everything else, ALL my needs if I obeyed Him: He’d protect me from my enemies, near and far, He’d heal my diseases, protect my family, He would make sure I lacked nothing just as he did for Solomon when he obeyed. I could entirely focus not only on keeping his laws perfectly, but trying to go above and beyond what he requested to show him how much I loved him, like David wanted to do by building Him a house. Now sure, I would make mistakes, I would fall to weaknesses, but God provided provisions within that law where for certain short comings I could obtain mercy through repentance and animal sacrifices, just as Moses and Aaron received mercy… even David received mercy for a most egregious sin. But, to try and keep those laws living under a foreign government, like it was for the Israelites in Egypt, or like it is today in this sick world under international communism: Impossible! So what’s the solution: do it your way and butcher parts out of the law that are inconvenient, and then make others feel guilty cause they won’t obey my mutilated old covenant, or turn to what Christ offered me through His sacrifice, where I can keep the spirit of the whole law while living within the dungeons of foreign captivity?
 
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bbbbbbb

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That’s what you say, but that wasn’t what God said. If I was living back in those days, I would obey the entire law. You know why???? Because during that time, the Lord was ruler and King of Israel, He promised to all that He would take care of everything else, ALL my needs if I obeyed Him: He’d protect me from my enemies, near and far, He’d heal my diseases, protect my family, He would make sure I lacked nothing just as he did for Solomon when he obeyed. I could entirely focus not only on keeping his laws perfectly, but trying to go above and beyond what he requested to show him how much I loved him, like David wanted to do by building Him a house. Now sure, I would make mistakes, I would fall to weaknesses, but God provided provisions within that law where for certain short comings I could obtain mercy through repentance and animal sacrifices, just as Moses and Aaron received mercy… even David received mercy for a most egregious sin. But, to try and keep those laws living under a foreign government, like it was for the Israelites in Egypt, or like it is today in this sick world under international communism: Impossible! So what’s the solution: do it your way and butcher parts out of the law that are inconvenient, and then make others feel guilty cause they won’t obey my mutilated old covenant, or turn to what Christ offered me through His sacrifice, where I can keep the spirit of the whole law while living within the dungeons of foreign captivity?
To cut a bit of slack for many who are living under the burden of the Law, I would say that many, if not most, really don't have a clear understanding of the dungeon they have chosen to inhabit. For example, the SDA prides itself on its commitment to obey the Ten Commandments (only) without understanding that the basic supposition that God only requires ten of his commandments to be obeyed is seriously flawed, not to mention that they themselves are disobedient to their favorite commandment of all - the fourth. They most assuredly do not rest on the Sabbath as commanded by God. Then they toss in extraneous commandments such as vegetarianism and the mix becomes truly toxic.

None of us is exempt from blindness to our own sin, whether of commission or omission. It is really comfortable to develop boundaries where one can perceive themselves to be pleasing to God, especially as expressed by rules and regulations which we are capable of keeping. Thus, I see, for example, many churches which completely reject alcohol in all its manifestations, but where many of their members are obese to morbidly obese. Or, to get even closer to another problem, most churches find LGBT folks to be unforgiveable sinners, but embrace folks who get married, then divorced, then remarried while their original spouse is still alive - sometimes multiple times.
 
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BobRyan

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Same regurgitated nonsense. Re 1Cor 7:19:
So your solution to seeing 1 Cor 7:19 quoted is to call it nonsense?? seriously??

How can the "commandments of God" (the Torah) be contrasted to circumcision
Read the actual text rather than asking me how it can exist. It makes the contrast whether you quote it or not.

How is this not the easy part??
I find it more than curious how you keep giving rebuttals and yet you never bother to reconcile them with scriptures
You just did that very thing above.

My argument is to ACCEPT the text - it is you that are arguing against it.

How is this not obvious??
 
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Yeshua HaDerekh

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That’s what you say, but that wasn’t what God said. If I was living back in those days, I would obey the entire law.

So what’s the solution: do it your way and butcher parts out of the law that are inconvenient, and then make others feel guilty cause they won’t obey my mutilated old covenant, or turn to what Christ offered me through His sacrifice, where I can keep the spirit of the whole law while living within the dungeons of foreign captivity?
Again, that just shows your complete lack of understanding regarding Torah. Tell me HOW, just you, would obey the ENTIRE law...??? Remember, you said BACK IN THOSE DAYS. You can't use Matthew or Romans because they were not written yet. You have the TaNaKh, that's it...
 
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Yeshua HaDerekh

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You're out of your element understanding the scriptures. If certain laws cannot be obeyed due to historic events and at the same time the Torah teaches that the Law Covenant CANNOT be amended for any reason then that presents no small theological problem for people who on this side of the Cross have one foot in the Old Covenant and the other one in the New simultaneously.

And, yes, the entire Law of Moses requiref perfect obedience...er by both sexes. Males had to obey all that applies to them and females had to obey all that applies to them. And all the gender-neutral commandments had to be obeyed fully by both.
Um YOU were the one who said it not me lol! Everyone can read what we both have written. There is no theological dilemma, maybe only for you because you have no understanding regarding Torah. See there YOU go again, "the entire Law of Moses requiref perfect obedience...er by both sexes"...then you say "Males had to obey all that applies to them and females had to obey all that applies to them." Make up your mind lol! Oy vey!

 
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