Chief end of man

[Hammster]

There's a reason why God declares man righteous or credits righteousness to him when man believes. It's because that is the first right step or act man can make, reversing Adam's lack of belief in God. Adam thought he didn't need God, that he could determine morality for himself, that he knew better than God-and all man's unrighteousness stems from the alienation from God that resulted. Man must come to recognize God as His God again, that He exists and that we need Him desperately. Man cannot be who he was created to be if apart from God, and all true righteousness is based on restoring union with Him. That's why Jesus came, to restore faith, and then hope in, and, ultimately and most importantly, love for, God. That's why faith pleases God immensely, as faith is the basis of restored justice/righteousness to God's wayward creation.

Actually, it’s grace.

 

[bling]

Because that only wipes away the negative. It doesn’t give us a positive. There’s more to righteousness than lack of sin.

Oh, and there’s the actual scripture that says Hos righteousness is imputed to us.

Which verse are you using?
He that is forgiven an unbelievable huge debt will automatically be given an unbelievable huge Love (Godly type Love)) so accepting God's forgiveness does more than just get rid of the negative.

 

[Hammster]

Which verse are you using?
He that is forgiven an unbelievable huge debt will automatically be given an unbelievable huge Love (Godly type Love)) so accepting God's forgiveness does more than just get rid of the negative.

No, it doesn’t. It doesn’t make you a good person. It just means you aren’t responsible for your sin.

 

[fhansen]

Actually, it’s grace.

Yes, and?? Faith is gift of grace. And without either, no reconciliation with God

 

[Hammster]

Yes, and?? Faith is gift of grace. And without either, no reconciliation with God

I was just correcting you. You said “There's a reason why God declares man righteous or credits righteousness to him when man believes.” And then had this long explanation. The simple answer is it’s grace.

 

[bling]

No, it doesn’t. It doesn’t make you a good person. It just means you aren’t responsible for your sin.

I am always responsible for my sins, but God forgave me, but that does not make God responsible. Forgiving your child does not take away their responsibility for the offence. With Loving discipline, they can grow from the experience.
Is Jesus not teaching us in Luke 7 if we humble accept God forgiveness of an unbelievable huge Debt, we will automatically obtain an unbelievable huge Love? Would that new huge Love make us much better?

 

[Hammster]

I am always responsible for my sins, but God forgave me, but that does not make God responsible. Forgiving your child does not take away their responsibility for the offence. With Loving discipline, they can grow from the experience.
Is Jesus not teaching us in Luke 7 if we humble accept God forgiveness of an unbelievable huge Debt, we will automatically obtain an unbelievable huge Love? Would that new huge Love make us much better?

If you are responsible for your sin then you must pay the penalty for your sin. That’s how responsibility works.

 

[bling]

If you are responsible for your sin then you must pay the penalty for your sin. That’s how responsibility works.

Not if they are forgiven.

 

[Hammster]

Not if they are forgiven.

You mean like someone taking the responsibility for their sins?

 

[bling]

You mean like someone taking the responsibility for their sins?

No!
Paul uses his past sins in his witness to others, but he does not say others are now responsible for his past sins. Paul was forgiven and thus Loves much as the result of being forgiven (Luke 7). Was Paul punished for his forgiven sins? How can Paul say: "Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am chief." Paul did not say "I was", but "I am". If Paul was no long "responsible" for his sins he would not be the chief sinner.
If a child intentionally smashes an expensive vase, repents of it and asks his parents for forgiveness and they forgive him, he still smashed the vase.

 

[fhansen]

I was just correcting you. You said “There's a reason why God declares man righteous or credits righteousness to him when man believes.” And then had this long explanation. The simple answer is it’s grace.

And yet not all respond to His grace. To say "yes" to God is to do no more than what man should do, and yet this still pleases God because it means we're making the right choice. We can't make it without Him, without grace, and yet He won't compel us to make it at the end of the day.

 

[Hammster]

No!
Paul uses his past sins in his witness to others, but he does not say others are now responsible for his past sins. Paul was forgiven and thus Loves much as the result of being forgiven (Luke 7). Was Paul punished for his forgiven sins? How can Paul say: "Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am chief." Paul did not say "I was", but "I am". If Paul was no long "responsible" for his sins he would not be the chief sinner.
If a child intentionally smashes an expensive vase, repents of it and asks his parents for forgiveness and they forgive him, he still smashed the vase.

Hmmm. It’s almost like Jesus took the responsibility for Paul’s sins.

 

[Hammster]

And yet not all respond to His grace. To say "yes* to God is to do no more than what man should do, and yet this still pleases God because it means we're making the right choice. We can't make it without Him, without grace, and yet He won't compel us to make it at the end of the day.

I see. Righteousness not credited, but rather earned by our saying “yes”.

 

[fhansen]

All sin deserves death.

So, knowing that perfect sinlessness is impossible in this life, would you say that a believer who engages in adultery or rape remains as close to God as one who, say, engages in idle gossip?

 

[fhansen]

Because that only wipes away the negative. It doesn’t give us a positive. There’s more to righteousness than lack of sin.

This is true-and this is why the church has historically taught that along with justification comes the "gift of righteousness" (Rom 5:17) as we're made new creations. This means that we're now led by the Spirit, under grace, in union with God; that union, itself, being the basis of justice or righteousness for man. Then we must continue to walk in that righteousness, as "slaves to righteousness" (Rom 6), doing good (Rom 2:7), overcoming sin (Rom 8:12-14), if we're to inherit eternal life.

"...not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ—the righteousness that comes from God on the basis of faith." Phil 3:9

 

[fhansen]

I see. Righteousness not credited, but rather earned by our saying “yes”.

Righteousness credited or declared because we said yes, because we've responded to His grace IOW, and then confirm and complete that by our actions, which speak louder than mere professions.

"Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds." James 2:18
"You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone." James 2:24

Unless we're changed, for the better, then faith would be worthless.

 

[bling]

Hmmm. It’s almost like Jesus took the responsibility for Paul’s sins.

I know it is very difficult for people to humbly accept God pure undeserved charity in the form of forgiveness and might prefer to think of themselves as not being responsible for their sins and thus not in need of real forgiveness, but the only way we can live with the fact we hurt others, God, Jesus and ourselves in the past, is by humbly accepting God's forgiveness and thus have this huge Love (Luke 7).

 

[Hammster]

So, knowing that perfect sinlessness is impossible in this life, would you say that a believer who engages in adultery or rape remains as close to God as one who, say, engages in idle gossip?

I’ll assume that the individuals are regenerated. With that in mind, no they aren’t as close. But God will discipline them.

 

[Hammster]

This is true-and this is why the church has historically taught that along with justification comes the "gift of righteousness" (Rom 5:17) as we're made new creations. This means that we're now led by the Spirit, under grace, in union with God; that union, itself, being the basis of justice or righteousness for man. Then we must continue to walk in that righteousness, as "slaves to righteousness" (Rom 6), doing good (Rom 2:7), overcoming sin (Rom 8:12-14), if we're to inherit eternal life.

"...not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ—the righteousness that comes from God on the basis of faith." Phil 3:9

Justification and righteousness are the same thing.

 

[Hammster]

Righteousness credited or declared because we said yes, because we've responded to His grace IOW, and then confirm and complete that by our actions, which speak louder than mere professions.

"Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds." James 2:18
"You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone." James 2:24

Unless we're changed, for the better, then faith would be worthless.

Sounds reformed.