Chief end of man

[fhansen]

Do you believe that God's justice and wrath as expressed by the eternal commitment of the vast majority of humanity to the lake of fire which burns forever and ever is motivated by unconditional love?

Yes, or else He's just a vengeful and wrathful sort of God. Justice and love are mutually inclusive. But love and evil are not. He loves unconditionally. The only reason that a human can merit eternal punishment is because they've rejected that very love. They've shown by their own lives that they'd rather exist apart from it.

 

[Hammster]

I am not trying to describe a "lottery", but a made-up Spiritual type lottery like what the kingdom is like. Calling it a "lottery" might be hard for you, but some of Jesus' parables are not meant to be exact replications of what happens on earth, but to show what the Kingdom is like, with an earthly story.
We can bypass the earthly analogy and talk about what is happening in the Kingdom:

God is offering Godly type Love, eternal life, and fellowship to all sinners (an unbelievable huge charitable gift) most people will not humble themselves to the point of accepting this gift as pure undeserved charity, but some humbly accept the gift thus taking possession. You seem to be saying: if a person humbly accepts this huge charitable gift, they have thus earned the gift, made themselves worthy of the gift or deserve the gift, while I am saying just humbly accepting pure undeserved charity does not make a person: worthy, deserving nor did he/she earn any part of the gift. How does humbly accepting a charitable gift make the person worthy of the gift is my question?

I see. So Christians earn salvation (your word) by being humble. That’s something to be proud of.

 

[Hammster]

BECAUSE HE IS LOVE!

Because He is God who is worthy of all honor and glory.

 

[Hammster]

Yes, or else He's just a vengeful and wrathful sort of God. Justice and love are mutually inclusive. But love and evil are not. He loves unconditionally. The only reason that a human can merit eternal punishment is because they've rejected that very love. They've shown by their own lives that they'd rather exist apart from it.

Actually, they merit eternal punishment because of unrepentant sin.

 

[fhansen]

Actually, they merit eternal punishment because of unrepentant sin.

And this is why it's known and taught by the church that the kind of sin that earns us death, mortal sin, deeds of the flesh such as those outlined in Galatians 5 and elsewhere always directly oppose and destroy love in us and constitute a turning away from love of God and neighbor. We sin to the extent that we lack that love.

 

[Hammster]

And this is why it's known and taught by the church that the kind of sin that earns us death, mortal sin, deeds of the flesh such as those outlined in Galatians 5 and elsewhere always directly oppose and destroy love in us and constitute a turning away from love of God and neighbor. We sin to the extent that we lack that love.

All sin deserves death.

 

[bling]

I see. So Christians earn salvation (your word) by being humble. That’s something to be proud of.

I specifically said: "I am saying just humbly accepting pure undeserved charity does not make a person: worthy, deserving nor did he/she earn any part of the gift."

And asked you:
"How does humbly accepting a charitable gift make the person worthy of the gift is my question?"

 

[Hammster]

I specifically said: "I am saying just humbly accepting pure undeserved charity does not make a person: worthy, deserving nor did he/she earn any part of the gift."

And asked you:
"How does humbly accepting a charitable gift make the person worthy of the gift is my question?"

There’s not a thing that ever makes us worthy. That’s your position. My position is that our righteousness is imputed to us.

 

[bling]

There’s not a thing that ever makes us worthy. That’s your position. My position is that our righteousness is imputed to us.

We are "righteous" because God has forgiven our sins, we than automatically have n unbelievable huge Love and the indwelling Holy Sirit, so why would imputed righteousness be needed?

 

[The Liturgist]

The Westminster Shorter Catechism starts with this question.

What is the chief end of man?

Man's chief end is to glorify God, and to enjoy him forever.

I agree with this because there is nothing greater than His glory. It’s the culmination of all we know about Him. Some have argued that God is more interested in loving us than He is with His glory. If this is true, then the Westminster divines got this wrong. Our chief end should be to love one another.

I think they got it right. God is very concerned about His glory because there is nothing greater. We can’t put an attribute of God (love for instance) above His glory for two reasons. One, God is singular and we cannot divide his attributes like ingredients in a cake. So one can’t be singled out over another. Two, His glory is the culmination of His attributes. So to pull one out (if it was possible) and put it over the culmination of His attributes would make no sense.


You who fear the Lord, praise Him;
All you descendants of Jacob, glorify Him,
And stand in awe of Him, all you descendants of Israel.
— Psalm 22:23

That’s a good command. We should follow it.

I don’t disagree with the Westminster Catechism insofar as it at least partially describes the chief end of man, and depending on how one is to glorify God and enjoy him forever, this statement does not strike me as by any means inherently incompatible with older Patristic meditations on this subject going back to the likes of St. Ephrem the Syrian (the Homilies on Paradise, as recently translated by Sebastian Brock, for example) and St. John of Damascus. We also see these themes throughout the wonderful anthology on prayer known as the Philokalia. This makes sense, because the common denominator of the Westminster Catechism and the Patristic corpus is Scripture, including Psalm 22, and also Psalm 145, and the canticle Benedicite Omni Opera from the longer version of Daniel found in the Septuagint (which I personally regard as more complete than the Masoretic version.

However, I feel compelled to note that, among most traditional theologians, the love of God, based on scriptural references, is not an attribute of God, but rather is essential. Scripture specifically states that God is Love. I would further state that the Glory of God is His infinite Love, and that the human experiences of both of these are the experiences of His uncreated energies, as opposed to His divine essence, which is entirely beyond our comprehension, except to the extent that we know from Scripture that it entails the infinite love, light and glory of the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost and is immutable, unbounded, infinite, and impossible to reason about outside of a few specific revelations and the use of apophatic theology. Indeed I might be attributing to the Divine Essence more than I reasonably can, things which we know only through the uncreated energies of God such as His grace (perhaps @prodromos or @HTacianas could check me here as I trust them more than myself when it comes to getting the essence/energies distinction down correctly).

 

[The Liturgist]

Yes, or else He's just a vengeful and wrathful sort of God. Justice and love are mutually inclusive. But love and evil are not. He loves unconditionally. The only reason that a human can merit eternal punishment is because they've rejected that very love. They've shown by their own lives that they'd rather exist apart from it.

The Eastern fathers (both EO and OO, and also various Eastern Catholics, particularly Byzantine Catholics) tend to view God as a consuming fire, which those who approach Him in love through the grace of the Holy Spirit, which they have chosen to accept, experience as infinite love, as a result of being aligned with God through accepting the grace of the Holy Spirit, whereas those who reject His grace experience God as a burning fire.

I have further seen it proposed that banishment to the outer darkness is a final act of mercy fo the unsaved, in that the presence of God, while ecstatic for the elect, is a torment to the damned, and thus moving those people away from His radiant splendor spares them suffering. This also makes sense in light of the view articulated by St. John Chrysostom, that the worst part of being damned consists of missing out on the joys of paradise (a view which stands in stark contrast to the view of damnation we encounter in Dante.

 

[Hammster]

We are "righteous" because God has forgiven our sins, we then automatically have n unbelievable huge Love and the indwelling Holy Sirit, so why would imputed righteousness be needed?

Because we have no righteousness of our own.

 

[bling]

Because we have no righteousness of our own.

Our "righteousness" comes from God's forgiveness, resulting in Godly type Love and the gift of the indwelling Holy Spirit.

 

[Hammster]

Our "righteousness" comes from God's forgiveness, resulting in Godly type Love and the gift of the indwelling Holy Spirit.

No, our righteousness is credited to us.

For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”
— Romans 4:3

 

[bling]

No, our righteousness is credited to us.

For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”
— Romans 4:3

Romans 4:3 What does Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”

Romans 4:5 However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness.

James 2:23 And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,” and he was called God’s friend.

“Credit” is like a reward or payment, but the charitable gift of righteousness, does not come from “works”, but our faith.

Our faith provides our righteousness, Our faith (trust) in God causes us to humbly accept His forgiveness (Charity) thus providing us with Love.

 

[fhansen]

Romans 4:3 What does Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”

Romans 4:5 However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness.

James 2:23 And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,” and he was called God’s friend.

“Credit” is like a reward or payment, but the charitable gift of righteousness, does not come from “works”, but our faith.

Our faith provides our righteousness, Our faith (trust) in God causes us to humbly accept His forgiveness (Charity) thus providing us with Love.

This is true. Justification entails not only the remission of sin but also the power now, by the Spirit, to overcome sin. Man's righteousness comes only by virtue of union with God. And this relationship is established as we turn to Him in faith. Jesus came to reveal the true God, so that we'll know Him for ourselves and by knowing Him we'll come to believe in, hope in, and love Him. Again, all genuine righteousness flows from that relationship- and that relationship is what distinguishes the new covenant from the old.

“I will put my law in their minds
and write it on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.
No longer will they teach their neighbor,
or say to one another, ‘Know the Lord,’
because they will all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest,”
declares the Lord." Jer 31:33-34

 

[Hammster]

Romans 4:3 What does Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”

Romans 4:5 However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness.

James 2:23 And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,” and he was called God’s friend.

“Credit” is like a reward or payment, but the charitable gift of righteousness, does not come from “works”, but our faith.

Our faith provides our righteousness, Our faith (trust) in God causes us to humbly accept His forgiveness (Charity) thus providing us with Love.

That is so twisted from the plain meaning of the text. We believe, and we have righteousness imputed (credited) to us.

 

[bling]

That is so twisted from the plain meaning of the text. We believe, and we have righteousness imputed (credited) to us.

Are our sins forgiven and if so why does that along with what automatically happen with the acceptance of God's forgiveness not make us righteous?

 

[fhansen]

No, our righteousness is credited to us.

For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”
— Romans 4:3

There's a reason why God declares man righteous or credits righteousness to him when man believes. It's because that is the first right step or act man can make, reversing Adam's lack of belief in God. Adam thought he didn't need God, that he could determine morality for himself, that he knew better than God-and all man's unrighteousness stems from the alienation from God that resulted. Man must come to recognize God as His God again, that He exists and that we need Him desperately. Man cannot be who he was created to be if apart from God, and all true righteousness is based on restoring union with Him. That's why Jesus came, to restore faith, and then hope in, and, ultimately and most importantly, love for, God. That's why faith pleases God immensely, as faith is the basis of restored justice/righteousness to God's wayward creation.

 

[Hammster]

Are our sins forgiven and if so why does that along with what automatically happen with the acceptance of God's forgiveness not make us righteous?

Because that only wipes away the negative. It doesn’t give us a positive. There’s more to righteousness than lack of sin.

Oh, and there’s the actual scripture that says Hos righteousness is imputed to us.