Are we subject to the Old Covenant today?

[sparow]

(continue...)

I'm not sure if you follow the law concerning circumcision (Lev 12:3) like Jesus did. Abraham was circumcised at the age of 99 in Gen 17:9-11, yet he met Melchizedek much earlier in Gen 14:17-18, who, btw, drank wine. So, is Melchizedek circumcised? Why wasn't Abraham circumcised sooner if Melchizedek had the instructions about circumcision? If the instructions about circumcision were revealed to Abraham when he was 99 years old, why was Melchizedek the priest of the Most High before the practice of circumcision even existed? So, in your understanding, what set of laws did Melchizedek follow in order to become the priest of the Most High?

If the law given to Melchizedek, a priest of the Most High, was later replaced with Mosaic law so that Levi may become priests, how sure are we that the law Melchizedek received contains the same customary law as the old covenant of Israel?

I believe Melchizedek means King of righteousness; circumcision is to do with sanctification or being set apart; circumcision is a precursor to entering into the covenant; the new covenant is a second chance for the lost sheep of Israel, the terms of the covenant have not changed.

 

[Cornelius8L]

I believe Melchizedek means King of righteousness; circumcision is to do with sanctification or being set apart; circumcision is a precursor to entering into the covenant; the new covenant is a second chance for the lost sheep of Israel, the terms of the covenant have not changed.

I agree.

Abraham did not appear to have the circumcision law in Leviticus 12:3 (Mosaic law) prior to meeting Melchizedek.

 

[Lukaris]

The basic moral laws of both covenants are the same. What the Lord told the rich young man in Matthew 19:16-19 is what St. Paul says in Romans 13:8-10.

Laws pertaining to fleshly requirements no longer apply like circumcision, animal sacrifice for sins etc. Galatians 5:1-26, while emphasizing circumcision, seems to distinguish the overall transition from the flesh to the spiritual. An animal trespass offering for sin is no longer part of atonement. So, for ex., in reading Leviticus 6:1-7, the basic need to try to restore in some way something stolen from someone remains but the trespass offering in verses 6 & 7 do not apply. This should now be a matter of confession ( see 1 John 1:5-10).

So as keeping basic commandments still apply. What Solomon says in Ecclesiastes 12:13-14 ( within the overall context of Ecclesiastes 12:1-14)is still practical. The Lord says if we love Him, we will keep His commandments ( John 14:15-18) and 1 John 2:1-29 explains much of this.

 

[Leaf473]

The basic moral laws of both covenants are the same. What the Lord told the rich young man in Matthew 19:16-19 is what St. Paul says in Romans 13:8-10.

Laws pertaining to fleshly requirements no longer apply like circumcision, animal sacrifice for sins etc. Galatians 5:1-26, while emphasizing circumcision, seems to distinguish the overall transition from the flesh to the spiritual. An animal trespass offering for sin is no longer part of atonement. So, for ex., in reading Leviticus 6:1-7, the basic need to try to restore in some way something stolen from someone remains but the trespass offering in verses 6 & 7 do not apply. This should now be a matter of confession ( see 1 John 1:5-10).

So as keeping basic commandments still apply. What Solomon says in Ecclesiastes 12:13-14 ( within the overall context of Ecclesiastes 12:1-14)is still practical. The Lord says if we love Him, we will keep His commandments ( John 14:15-18) and 1 John 2:1-29 explains much of this.

I agree with what you're saying and it's pretty simple. Where people often get hung up is on things like cleanliness laws and the Sabbath.

Cleanliness laws, because the thinking goes that they are basically health laws. If you're healthier, you'll live longer. That means you can serve God longer, so it's a moral issue. I don't buy it, but I think that's how the reasoning goes.

The Sabbath, because God rested on the seventh day. So resting on the seventh day is seen as living God's way, and thus a moral issue.

But again I agree, the Church long ago was led by God to focus on the spiritual aspects of the commandments.

 

[Lukaris]

I agree with what you're saying and it's pretty simple. Where people often get hung up is on things like cleanliness laws and the Sabbath.

Cleanliness laws, because the thinking goes that they are basically health laws. If you're healthier, you'll live longer. That means you can serve God longer, so it's a moral issue. I don't buy it, but I think that's how the reasoning goes.

The Sabbath, because God rested on the seventh day. So resting on the seventh day is seen as living God's way, and thus a moral issue.

But again I agree, the Church long ago was led by God to focus on the spiritual aspects of the commandments.

Yes, like I believe ( for ex.) a person can keep a kosher diet. On a personal level it seems like it could be beneficial for faith and health. It is not binding on another person who does not observe a kosher diet.

 

[Studyman]

In a conversation with DAQ in another thread, the question moved from whether we were still required to keep the kosher laws of the Old Covenant to whether we were still required to keep any of the laws of the Old Covenant. Below is a summation of my understanding of the modern Christian's responsibility to the Old Covenant based on Scripture, New and Old.

What is the purpose of the Law today?
1 Cor 10:11 - "Now these things happened to them as an example, and they were written for our instruction, upon whom the ends of the ages have come."
The Old Covenant stories are an example to us and as instruction to us; they are history from which we learn.

Your fatal error, in my view, that is the foundation of your sermon here, is teaching that the "LAW and Prophets" is the Old Covenant. Paul called the Law and Prophets "The Gospel of Christ" wherein the wrath and the righteousness of God is revealed. (Rom. 1)

In fact, there is not ONE place in the entire Holy Scriptures where the Law and Prophets are said to be the "Old Covenant" that has passed away.

The Jesus of the Bible says, regarding the Law and Prophets,

Luke 16: 31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

Paul teaches both Jew and Gentile in the Body of Christ, regarding the Law and Prophets, the only scriptures available to them;

2 Tim. 3: 16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

In God's OWN definition of His OWN New Covenant, HE Inspires;

Jer. 31: 33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. 34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

There is not ONE Mention of God's Prophets, or HIS LAW as becoming obsolete here. There are only 2 things that HE addresses.

#1. The manner in which HIS Laws are administered.

#2. The manner in which Sins are forgiven.

Both of these things were provided for by the Levitical Priesthood. The Covenant of God that "changed" was the Priesthood Covenant God made with Israel after the golden calf.

The LAW and Prophets were not "Abolished" by the Christ, they were restored/fulfilled by the Christ. At least, the Christ of the Bible. The Scriptures you post show this.

Rom 15:4 - "For whatever was written in earlier times was written for our instruction, so that through perseverance and the encouragement of the Scriptures we might have hope."
Again, the Old Covenant Scriptures are for our encouragement and instruction.

No, the OLD Priesthood led us to the Blood of the Lamb of God for forgiveness. The LAW and Prophets were written specifically for those repentant souls after the death and resurrection of the Christ. They didn't become old and vanish away, like the Levitical Priesthood sacrifices and offerings for sin.

2 Tim 3:14-17 - "You, however, continue in the things you have learned and become convinced of, knowing from whom you have learned them, 15 and that from childhood you have known the sacred writings which are able to give you the wisdom that leads to salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. 16 All Scripture is inspired by God and beneficial for teaching, for rebuke, for correction, for training in righteousness; 17 so that the man or woman of God may be fully capable, equipped for every good work."
The "sacred writings" and "all Scripture" here are the Old Covenant (the New Covenant having not yet been compiled as we have it today).

No, this understanding is the result of the fatal error of not allowing God to define HIS Own New Covenant. The LAW and Prophets that Paul said was written "For our sakes no doubt", is not the "OLD Covenant" defined by God. The Priesthood Covenant requiring the slaughter of animals for the forgiveness of sins, is the old covenant.

Both Jesus and Paul, and Peter taught both Jews and Gentiles the Gospel of Christ, which was also given to Israel who didn't believe it, long before they were even born.

Heb. 4: 2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.

What changed is the manner in which sins were forgiven, and the manner in which God's Laws are administered. At least this is how the God of the Bible described His New Covenant. You can look for yourself.

The Old Covenant Scriptures are valuable "for teaching, for rebuking, for correction, and for training in righteousness". However, are they still binding on us today? Are we still bound to obey the Law of Moses? Is our salvation tied to keeping the Law? Or are we freed from the Law?

satan convinced Eve she was "Freed from the Law of God". It is a seductive religious philosophy for sure, but it was untrue then, and it is still untrue today, at least according to Paul.

1 Cor. 6: 9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, 10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

Obviously, these "works" are all transgressions of the so-called, Law of Moses, also defined in the Holy Scriptures as "Sins".

Clearly Paul taught both Jew and Gentile that the repentant must abstain from these "works" in order to enter the Kingdom of God. This is central in the Gospel of Christ, at least the one Paul and the Christ of the Bible promoted.

If the foundation of a belief in founded on a falsehood, then the entire belief is infected, or as it is written, "A little leaven leavens the whole lump".

If your definition of God's New Covenant contradicts His definition, which so far clearly does, then the entire sermon is infected.

The Christ of the Bible, promoting HIS Gospel before becoming a man and dwelling among us, teaches the following.

Ez. 18: 30 Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, saith the Lord GOD. Repent, and turn yourselves from all your transgressions; so iniquity shall not be your ruin. 31 Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

The Same Christ teaches, as the man Jesus,

Luke 13: 3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

And Paul teaches both Jew and Gentile;

Acts 26: 20 But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.

Truly this is all the Gospel of Christ.

I understand there are "many" other voices, who come in Christ's name, in this world God placed us in, who preach that men are free from God's instruction in Righteousness, just as the voice in the garden deceived Eve.

My hope is that you might consider what is actually written, and "Take heed" of those "many" who come in His Name, as the Christ of the Bible instructs.

 

[Doug Brents]

Your fatal error, in my view, that is the foundation of your sermon here, is teaching that the "LAW and Prophets" is the Old Covenant. Paul called the Law and Prophets "The Gospel of Christ" wherein the wrath and the righteousness of God is revealed. (Rom. 1)

I can see where you might get that impression, but the Gospel of Christ is not the Law and Prophets. Reading Rom 1:1-2, we can see that Paul is saying that the Gospel was pointed to by the Law and Prophets.

In fact, there is not ONE place in the entire Holy Scriptures where the Law and Prophets are said to be the "Old Covenant" that has passed away.

Ok, so you are saying that Heb 8:7 & 13 is not Holy Scripture? Here the Holy Spirit says that there is a NEW Covenant (indicating that there is an OLD Covenant), and that the NEW has made the first (Old) obsolete.

You would also be saying that Gal 4:21-31 is not Holy Scripture? Here the Holy Spirit through Paul says that the Old Covenant (that coming from Mt Sinai) results in children in slavery who will not receive the Promise, but the New Covenant leads to free children who do inherit the Promise.

The Jesus of the Bible says, regarding the Law and Prophets,

Luke 16: 31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

Paul teaches both Jew and Gentile in the Body of Christ, regarding the Law and Prophets, the only scriptures available to them;

2 Tim. 3: 16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

You are absolutely correct that ALL Scripture is essential to a perfect, thoroughly furnished man of God. So tell me, since the Scriptures listed above tell us that we are no longer bound to the Law and the Prophets as our guiding commandments, but as reference material for our edification and understanding of who Christ was and how God relates to His people, why do you insist that we continue to be bound to the Law of Moses as the rules for how we should live today?

In God's OWN definition of His OWN New Covenant, HE Inspires;


Jer. 31: 33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. 34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

There is not ONE Mention of God's Prophets, or HIS LAW as becoming obsolete here. There are only 2 things that HE addresses.

#1. The manner in which HIS Laws are administered.

#2. The manner in which Sins are forgiven.

Both of these things were provided for by the Levitical Priesthood. The Covenant of God that "changed" was the Priesthood Covenant God made with Israel after the golden calf.

The LAW and Prophets were not "Abolished" by the Christ, they were restored/fulfilled by the Christ. At least, the Christ of the Bible. The Scriptures you post show this.

I'm sorry, but sin was not forgiven by the sacrifices of the Law of Moses (Heb 10:1-4). Sin can only be forgiven by God, and it took God in the flesh to shed HIS blood to forgive our sin. So the manner in which Sin was forgiven was not even considered in the Law of Moses. Forgiveness of sin was only to be a part of the New Covenant that the Lord would make "After those days...".

Satan convinced Eve she was "Freed from the Law of God". It is a seductive religious philosophy for sure, but it was untrue then, and it is still untrue today, at least according to Paul.

Where does Scripture say this?

1 Cor. 6: 9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, 10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

Obviously, these "works" are all transgressions of the so-called, Law of Moses, also defined in the Holy Scriptures as "Sins".

Clearly Paul taught both Jew and Gentile that the repentant must abstain from these "works" in order to enter the Kingdom of God. This is central in the Gospel of Christ, at least the one Paul and the Christ of the Bible promoted.

If the foundation of a belief in founded on a falsehood, then the entire belief is infected, or as it is written, "A little leaven leavens the whole lump".

If your definition of God's New Covenant contradicts His definition, which so far clearly does, then the entire sermon is infected.

Absolutely these actions are sin, in the Old Covenant and in the New Covenant. Almost everything listed as sin in the Old Covenant is also listed as sin in the New Covenant. But there are a couple of things that are not restated in the New Covenant as sin that were sin in the Old Covenant: eating "unclean foods" and keeping the sabbath. Neither of these things is listed as sin in the new Covenant.

The Christ of the Bible, promoting HIS Gospel before becoming a man and dwelling among us, teaches the following.


Ez. 18: 30 Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, saith the Lord GOD. Repent, and turn yourselves from all your transgressions; so iniquity shall not be your ruin. 31 Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

The Same Christ teaches, as the man Jesus,

Luke 13: 3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

And Paul teaches both Jew and Gentile;

Acts 26: 20 But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.

Truly this is all the Gospel of Christ.

Clearly there is sin, and clearly we must turn from a sinful life to a righteous life to inherit eternal life. As said above, almost all of the things that were sin in the OT are still sin in the NT. There are, however, some things that were sin under the Old Covenant that are not sin under the New Covenant. If we do not repent of the sin in our life, then Jesus is not our Lord, and we will not be saved (no matter what we profess, what prayer we prayed, group of which we were a part, or building in which we "worshipped").

I understand there are "many" other voices, who come in Christ's name, in this world God placed us in, who preach that men are free from God's instruction in Righteousness, just as the voice in the garden deceived Eve.

My hope is that you might consider what is actually written, and "Take heed" of those "many" who come in His Name, as the Christ of the Bible instructs.

You are correct that we are not free from God's instruction in righteousness. There are many things that we must not do (murder, sexual sin (of which there are many), theft, lying, etc.). However, there is a difference between the righteousness required in the Old Covenant and the righteousness that is required under the New Covenant.

And there are, as you say, many voices that speak falsehoods in Christ's name, but those voices do not come from Scripture (although they sometimes use Scripture erroneously). Scripture is very clear in stating that the Old Covenant (the Law and the Prophets) is very valuable for learning about God, but that it is not still the governing force for our lives today. There is a NEW Covenant that governs today, and that is the Covenant in Christ that was established in Christ's blood at His death and ratified by His resurrection.

 

[Studyman]

I can see where you might get that impression, but the Gospel of Christ is not the Law and Prophets. Reading Rom 1:1-2, we can see that Paul is saying that the Gospel was pointed to by the Law and Prophets.

I know this is what "many" who come in Christ's name preach. I grew up with this doctrine as well. But when i read Paul's actual Words, he doesn't say that at all.

Rom. 1: 16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith (Of Abel) to faith ( of Malachi) as it is written, The just shall live by faith. (This Scripture is found in the Gospel of Christ, Hab. 2:4.) 18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; 19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

Hebrews confirms this.

Heb. 4: 1 Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.

2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them (For God hath showed it to them)but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.

So, Yes, there is a popular religious philosophy that is taught by the religions of this world that the LAW and Prophets only pointed to the Christ. While it is true that the Priesthood Covenant with its sacrificial "Works of the Law" pointed to the Christ's sacrifice. His Actual Gospel, according to Paul, "IS" the LAW and Prophets which was the only Holy Scriptures which existed in Paul's Lifetime. This is confirmed by him several times.

2 Tim. 3: 13 But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived. 14 But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them; 15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

Obviously Timothy would have had no access to Paul's Letters, nor the teaching of the RCC or her Protestant daughters. The Law and Prophets were the Holy Scriptures. 16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, "throughly" furnished unto all good works.

This is why I posted in response to your preaching that the Law and Prophets are the "OLD" Covenant that became old and vanished away. It is a fatal error, that can be easily exposed by actually reading Paul's "words" and also be allowing the Creator of the "New Covenant" define HIS OWN NEW Covenant. When you do this, it becomes clear God didn't prophesy about the abolishing of the Law and Prophets which HPaul said was written specifically for those members of the Body of Christ, "AFTER" His Ascension.

My hope is that you might consider the "Holy Scriptures", and allow them for "for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness" as Paul teaches. Remember, Jesus said the "Truth" shall set you free.

 

[Studyman]

Ok, so you are saying that Heb 8:7 & 13 is not Holy Scripture? Here the Holy Spirit says that there is a NEW Covenant (indicating that there is an OLD Covenant), and that the NEW has made the first (Old) obsolete.

Of course I'm not saying such a thing. I'm simply posting what the Holy scriptures tell us the Old Covenant was. Heb. 7-10 speaks specifically of the Priesthood Covenant God made with Levi on Israel's behalf. The Old and New Covenants God defines, in HIS Inspired Words, deals with 2 things.

#1. How God's Laws are administered.

#2. How sins are forgiven.

You can see for yourself. The Priesthood Covenant "After the Order of Melchizedek" is the New Covenant. The Priesthood "After the Order of Aaron" is the Old Covenant.

Like it is written in your own Bible.

Heb. 7: 11 If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?

For a man to know God's Law, it was required for them to go find a Levite Priest or scribe to hear it. As it is written, the people "Received" God's Law through the Levitical Priesthood. But in the NEW Covenant, this was to be no longer the case "After those days".

And look at us now!!! We all have the Oracles of God in our own Homes, in our own mind and heart. We no longer "Receive the Law" under the Levitical Priesthood. The Hebrews author spells this out for us. It's just that you have been convinced by this world's religions that what became obsolete was god's Law, the Oracles of God, the Law and Prophets. Although this doctrine of man is widespread and taught by "MANY" who come in Christ's Name, it is false just the same. At least according to scriptures.

12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law. 13 For he of whom these things are spoken pertaineth to another tribe, of which no man gave attendance at the altar. 14 For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood.

Not only does the author tell us what changed in the New covenant, he even tells us what "LAW" changed by necessity. Jesus wasn't a Levite, therefore, according to the Priesthood Covenant God made with LEVI, Jesus couldn't partake of this Priesthood. Therefore a New Priesthood Covenant was prophesied, and then given. One in which it was no longer required to find a Levite Priest to receive God's "Instruction in Righteousness", and no longer were men required to bring a Goat to the Levite before Forgiveness of sin was granted. As God Promised "for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more."

Heb. 8: 13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

The deceiver would have us believe God's Law HE promised write on the hearts of His People became "Obsolete". But neither God, nor His Son that HE Sent, nor Paul teaches any such thing.

Sure, the "old" priesthood sacrificial "works of the Law" of the Priesthood covenant God made with Levi, that the Pharisees were still promoting became old and vanished, as it is written in Hebrews 4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.

But Love God and Love your neighbor, and all that defines these things in the Law and Prophets, did not vanish. As both the Christ, "of the Bible" and Paul clearly teaches. It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

You would also be saying that Gal 4:21-31 is not Holy Scripture? Here the Holy Spirit through Paul says that the Old Covenant (that coming from Mt Sinai) results in children in slavery who will not receive the Promise, but the New Covenant leads to free children who do inherit the Promise.

21 Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law?

Under what "LAW"? What law did the Pharisees promote?

Mark 7: 6 He answered and said unto them, Well hath Esaias prophesied of you hypocrites, as it is written, This people honoureth me with their lips, but their heart is far from me. 7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

8 For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do. 9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.

So tell me again, what LAW did the Pharisees desire to be under?

The answer would be determined by who you trust to define God's New Covenant for you. The deceiver would have you believe the Pharisees were following God's Laws and trying to convert others to do so as well. But if you were to actually read what is actually written, you would find that the only "law" the Pharisees were interested in was the Levitical Priesthood, where all their wealth and power came from. The Christ, "where HE was before" teaches us this in the Gospel of Christ. Listen to the Christ of the Bible here.

Is. 1: 2 Hear, O heavens, and give ear, O earth: for the LORD hath spoken, I have nourished and brought up children, and they have rebelled against me. 3 The ox knoweth his owner, and the ass his master's crib: but Israel doth not know, my people doth not consider. 4 Ah sinful nation, a people laden with iniquity, a seed of evildoers, children that are corrupters: they have forsaken the LORD, they have provoked the Holy One of Israel unto anger, they are gone away backward.

Hear what the Christ of the Bible tells us about them.

10 Hear the word of the LORD, ye rulers of Sodom; give ear unto the law of our God, ye people of Gomorrah. 11 To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices unto me? saith the LORD: I am full of the burnt offerings of rams, and the fat of fed beasts; and I delight not in the blood of bullocks, or of lambs, or of he goats. 12 When ye come to appear before me, who hath required this at your hand, to tread my courts?

These men despised the Law of God, but still continued in the Priesthood "Works of the Law" regarding remission of Sins.

These Pharisees were the same, as Jesus said Isaiah was right about them.

Gal. 4 doesn't help you in your promotion of the popular but false religious philosophy that the Law and Prophets, "became old and vanished". In fact, there is no scriptures, unless it is twisted, that can be sued to support the preaching that the Old covenant was the Lawe and Prophets.

You are absolutely correct that ALL Scripture is essential to a perfect, thoroughly furnished man of God. So tell me, since the Scriptures listed above tell us that we are no longer bound to the Law and the Prophets as our guiding commandments, but as reference material for our edification and understanding of who Christ was and how God relates to His people, why do you insist that we continue to be bound to the Law of Moses as the rules for how we should live today?

It doesn't Brent. You preach this, "many" who come in Christ's Name preach this. But Paul didn't. The holy scriptures Paul said he believed all that was written in, IS the Gospel of Christ. At least, the Christ of the Bible.


Rom. 6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, (Dead in tresspasses and Sins) but under grace? (Alive to Serve God) God forbid. 16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin "unto death", or of obedience unto righteousness?

And what happens to men who "Yield themselves" Servants to Obey God?

18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness. God's Righteousness of course.

I'm sorry, but sin was not forgiven by the sacrifices of the Law of Moses (Heb 10:1-4).

This is true, Nevertheless, there were still sacrificial "works of the Law" associated with the Levitical Priesthood which were required for the remission of Sin. It's in your own Bible, I can give you the Scriptures if you care to consider them. These sacrifices "pointed to" the Christ. And they were "temporary" in their beginning, given God surely knew His Prophesied Priest would not be from the Tribe of Levi. Had the Pharisees believed Moses, they would have know Jesus when HE came, as Zacharias and Simeon, Anna and the Wise men did.

Sin can only be forgiven by God, and it took God in the flesh to shed HIS blood to forgive our sin.

Nevertheless, in the Priesthood covenant with Levi, there were required sacrificial "works" which were necessary for the forgiveness of sins.

You can read it for yourself, and then come back and tell me these sacrificial "Works of the Law" promoted by the Pharisees, didn't exist.

Lev. 4:27 And if any one of the common people sin through ignorance, while he doeth somewhat against any of the commandments of the LORD concerning things which ought not to be done, and be guilty; 28 Or if his sin, which he hath sinned, come to his knowledge: then he shall bring his offering, a kid of the goats, a female without blemish, for his sin which he hath sinned. 29 And he shall lay his hand upon the head of the sin offering, and slay the sin offering in the place of the burnt offering.30 And the priest shall take of the blood thereof with his finger, and put it upon the horns of the altar of burnt offering, and shall pour out all the blood thereof at the bottom of the altar. 31 And he shall take away all the fat thereof, as the fat is taken away from off the sacrifice of peace offerings; and the priest shall burn it upon the altar for a sweet savour unto the LORD; and the priest shall make an atonement for him, and it shall be forgiven him.

Just because you don't believe what is written, doesn't mean it isn't written.,

So the manner in which Sin was forgiven was not even considered in the Law of Moses. Forgiveness of sin was only to be a part of the New Covenant that the Lord would make "After those days...".

Brent. Who taught you this? Surely not the Spirit of the Christ of the Bible. Please read what the God inspired Holy Scriptures says in your own Bible, then get back with me on how you reconcile your preaching that "Forgiveness of Sin was not even considered in the Law of Moses".

This is why I replied to your posts. Because what you preach, and what the Holy scriptures say are most often two completely different things. If you are doing this on purpose, then shame on you. But if you are just deceived, and led astray by this world's Preachers Jesus Himself warned about, then I hope you will consider who you have been listening to for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

It's humiliating to accept correction, I know this firsthand. But it kills pride and is so good for men, as it is written.

Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.

 

[sparow]

I can see where you might get that impression, but the Gospel of Christ is not the Law and Prophets. Reading Rom 1:1-2, we can see that Paul is saying that the Gospel was pointed to by the Law and Prophets.

Ok, so you are saying that Heb 8:7 & 13 is not Holy Scripture? Here the Holy Spirit says that there is a NEW Covenant (indicating that there is an OLD Covenant), and that the NEW has made the first (Old) obsolete.

You would also be saying that Gal 4:21-31 is not Holy Scripture? Here the Holy Spirit through Paul says that the Old Covenant (that coming from Mt Sinai) results in children in slavery who will not receive the Promise, but the New Covenant leads to free children who do inherit the Promise.

You are absolutely correct that ALL Scripture is essential to a perfect, thoroughly furnished man of God. So tell me, since the Scriptures listed above tell us that we are no longer bound to the Law and the Prophets as our guiding commandments, but as reference material for our edification and understanding of who Christ was and how God relates to His people, why do you insist that we continue to be bound to the Law of Moses as the rules for how we should live today?

I'm sorry, but sin was not forgiven by the sacrifices of the Law of Moses (Heb 10:1-4). Sin can only be forgiven by God, and it took God in the flesh to shed HIS blood to forgive our sin. So the manner in which Sin was forgiven was not even considered in the Law of Moses. Forgiveness of sin was only to be a part of the New Covenant that the Lord would make "After those days...".

Where does Scripture say this?

Absolutely these actions are sin, in the Old Covenant and in the New Covenant. Almost everything listed as sin in the Old Covenant is also listed as sin in the New Covenant. But there are a couple of things that are not restated in the New Covenant as sin that were sin in the Old Covenant: eating "unclean foods" and keeping the sabbath. Neither of these things is listed as sin in the new Covenant.

Clearly there is sin, and clearly we must turn from a sinful life to a righteous life to inherit eternal life. As said above, almost all of the things that were sin in the OT are still sin in the NT. There are, however, some things that were sin under the Old Covenant that are not sin under the New Covenant. If we do not repent of the sin in our life, then Jesus is not our Lord, and we will not be saved (no matter what we profess, what prayer we prayed, group of which we were a part, or building in which we "worshipped").

You are correct that we are not free from God's instruction in righteousness. There are many things that we must not do (murder, sexual sin (of which there are many), theft, lying, etc.). However, there is a difference between the righteousness required in the Old Covenant and the righteousness that is required under the New Covenant.

And there are, as you say, many voices that speak falsehoods in Christ's name, but those voices do not come from Scripture (although they sometimes use Scripture erroneously). Scripture is very clear in stating that the Old Covenant (the Law and the Prophets) is very valuable for learning about God, but that it is not still the governing force for our lives today. There is a NEW Covenant that governs today, and that is the Covenant in Christ that was established in Christ's blood at His death and ratified by His resurrection.

<<but the Gospel of Christ is not the Law and Prophets. >>

This leaves the question; what is the Gospel? A lot of people use "Gospel" in place of "new covenant", but that is also false. There was a debate in the early 1900s where it was said, " there are not 68 Gospels, there is only one, and that is the Gospel of the kingdom." and this Gospel had the condition, "repent". Had the terms of the new covenant been different to the old Jesus would have said; people who find fault with the law have usually misunderstood it.

 

[sparow]

Your fatal error, in my view, that is the foundation of your sermon here, is teaching that the "LAW and Prophets" is the Old Covenant. Paul called the Law and Prophets "The Gospel of Christ" wherein the wrath and the righteousness of God is revealed. (Rom. 1)

In fact, there is not ONE place in the entire Holy Scriptures where the Law and Prophets are said to be the "Old Covenant" that has passed away.

The Jesus of the Bible says, regarding the Law and Prophets,

Luke 16: 31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

Paul teaches both Jew and Gentile in the Body of Christ, regarding the Law and Prophets, the only scriptures available to them;

2 Tim. 3: 16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

In God's OWN definition of His OWN New Covenant, HE Inspires;

Jer. 31: 33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. 34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

There is not ONE Mention of God's Prophets, or HIS LAW as becoming obsolete here. There are only 2 things that HE addresses.

#1. The manner in which HIS Laws are administered.

#2. The manner in which Sins are forgiven.

Both of these things were provided for by the Levitical Priesthood. The Covenant of God that "changed" was the Priesthood Covenant God made with Israel after the golden calf.

The LAW and Prophets were not "Abolished" by the Christ, they were restored/fulfilled by the Christ. At least, the Christ of the Bible. The Scriptures you post show this.



No, the OLD Priesthood led us to the Blood of the Lamb of God for forgiveness. The LAW and Prophets were written specifically for those repentant souls after the death and resurrection of the Christ. They didn't become old and vanish away, like the Levitical Priesthood sacrifices and offerings for sin.



No, this understanding is the result of the fatal error of not allowing God to define HIS Own New Covenant. The LAW and Prophets that Paul said was written "For our sakes no doubt", is not the "OLD Covenant" defined by God. The Priesthood Covenant requiring the slaughter of animals for the forgiveness of sins, is the old covenant.

Both Jesus and Paul, and Peter taught both Jews and Gentiles the Gospel of Christ, which was also given to Israel who didn't believe it, long before they were even born.

Heb. 4: 2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.

What changed is the manner in which sins were forgiven, and the manner in which God's Laws are administered. At least this is how the God of the Bible described His New Covenant. You can look for yourself.



satan convinced Eve she was "Freed from the Law of God". It is a seductive religious philosophy for sure, but it was untrue then, and it is still untrue today, at least according to Paul.

1 Cor. 6: 9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, 10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

Obviously, these "works" are all transgressions of the so-called, Law of Moses, also defined in the Holy Scriptures as "Sins".

Clearly Paul taught both Jew and Gentile that the repentant must abstain from these "works" in order to enter the Kingdom of God. This is central in the Gospel of Christ, at least the one Paul and the Christ of the Bible promoted.

If the foundation of a belief in founded on a falsehood, then the entire belief is infected, or as it is written, "A little leaven leavens the whole lump".

If your definition of God's New Covenant contradicts His definition, which so far clearly does, then the entire sermon is infected.

The Christ of the Bible, promoting HIS Gospel before becoming a man and dwelling among us, teaches the following.

Ez. 18: 30 Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, saith the Lord GOD. Repent, and turn yourselves from all your transgressions; so iniquity shall not be your ruin. 31 Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

The Same Christ teaches, as the man Jesus,

Luke 13: 3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

And Paul teaches both Jew and Gentile;

Acts 26: 20 But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.

Truly this is all the Gospel of Christ.

I understand there are "many" other voices, who come in Christ's name, in this world God placed us in, who preach that men are free from God's instruction in Righteousness, just as the voice in the garden deceived Eve.

My hope is that you might consider what is actually written, and "Take heed" of those "many" who come in His Name, as the Christ of the Bible instructs.

When God tells us not to eat something and we disregard His counsel, not only are we insubordinate, but we reject perfect advice; when God tells us to do or not do there is a reason and consequence.

 

[Studyman]

When God tells us not to eat something and we disregard His counsel, not only are we insubordinate, but we reject perfect advice; when God tells us to do or not do there is a reason and consequence.

Of course, this is true but it's important to remember that there is a spiritual component to this disrespect and insubordination towards God, for those who "know Him". Paul speaks to this several times and understood it was the reason why he knew before, the scriptures and God's Instruction, and yet rejected them in favor of ancient religious traditions of the Jews with no consciousness of wrongdoing.

Rom. 1: 21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: 25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

Psalms 81: 11 But my people would not hearken to my voice; and Israel would none of me. 12 So I gave them up unto their own hearts' lust: and they walked in their own counsels.


This is why men, "who profess to know God" can promote falsehoods like "The Law and Prophets are the Old Covenant that became obsolete", or "the Law of Moses didn't mention forgiveness of sins", or a very popular myth, "God's Laws were only for the Jews", and not even bat an eye.

Just as it was for the mainstream preachers of Jesus Time. " And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition."

In my understanding this is why there are so many differing religious sects and franchises, all promoting different religious philosophies, but all have one thing in common. Transgressing God's Commandments by their own religious traditions.

The Body of Christ in Paul's Time didn't partake of this iniquity, in my understanding.

 

[sparow]

Of course, this is true but it's important to remember that there is a spiritual component to this disrespect and insubordination towards God, for those who "know Him". Paul speaks to this several times and understood it was the reason why he knew before, the scriptures and God's Instruction, and yet rejected them in favor of ancient religious traditions of the Jews with no consciousness of wrongdoing.

Rom. 1: 21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: 25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

Psalms 81: 11 But my people would not hearken to my voice; and Israel would none of me. 12 So I gave them up unto their own hearts' lust: and they walked in their own counsels.


This is why men, "who profess to know God" can promote falsehoods like "The Law and Prophets are the Old Covenant that became obsolete", or "the Law of Moses didn't mention forgiveness of sins", or a very popular myth, "God's Laws were only for the Jews", and not even bat an eye.

Just as it was for the mainstream preachers of Jesus Time. " And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition."

In my understanding this is why there are so many differing religious sects and franchises, all promoting different religious philosophies, but all have one thing in common. Transgressing God's Commandments by their own religious traditions.

The Body of Christ in Paul's Time didn't partake of this iniquity, in my understanding.

Traditions (habits) do not need to be bad, teachings of men in place of what God has given, is bad. Interpretations of scripture is OK, so long as it is always interpretation of scripture, and not interpretations of interpretations, where the scripture is forgotten; some interpretations are wrong, that is why we always refer to the scripture. Even good interpretations will never be exclusive.

 

[Doug Brents]

<<but the Gospel of Christ is not the Law and Prophets. >>

This leaves the question; what is the Gospel? A lot of people use "Gospel" in place of "new covenant", but that is also false. There was a debate in the early 1900s where it was said, " there are not 68 Gospels, there is only one, and that is the Gospel of the kingdom." and this Gospel had the condition, "repent". Had the terms of the new covenant been different to the old Jesus would have said; people who find fault with the law have usually misunderstood it.

The Gospel is the good news of the Life, Death, and Resurrection of Jesus, faith in which leads to forgiveness of sin, and thus salvation. The Gospel cannot be contained in the Old Covenant because Jesus had not yet become incarnate, thus He could not have died to pay the penalty for mankind's sin.

The Law and the Prophets point toward Christ; they lead us to Him, but they do not contain salvation in themselves. Salvation is ONLY in faith in Jesus. Since He had not yet been born, lived sinlessly, died as a sacrifice, and been raised by the power of the Holy Spirit showing His power over sin and death, there is no salvation in the Old Covenant. It is NOT the good news, but it does say that the good news is coming.

 

[Studyman]

The Gospel is the good news of the Life, Death, and Resurrection of Jesus, faith in which leads to forgiveness of sin, and thus salvation. The Gospel cannot be contained in the Old Covenant because Jesus had not yet become incarnate, thus He could not have died to pay the penalty for mankind's sin.

But wasn't the Christ of the Bible slain from the foundation of the world?

Is. 48: 16 Come ye near unto me, hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there am I: and now the Lord GOD, and his Spirit, hath sent me. 17 Thus saith the LORD, thy Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel; I am the LORD thy God which teacheth thee to profit, which leadeth thee by the way that thou shouldest go. 18 O that thou hadst hearkened to my commandments! then had thy peace been as a river, and thy righteousness as the waves of the sea:

In your religion, is this the Christ "Up where HE was before"?

Is. 43: 24 Thou hast bought me no sweet cane with money, neither hast thou filled me with the fat of thy sacrifices: but thou hast made me to serve with thy sins, thou hast wearied me with thine iniquities. 25 I, even I, am he that blotteth out thy transgressions for mine own sake, and will not remember thy sins. 26 Put me in remembrance: let us plead together: declare thou, that thou mayest be justified. 27 Thy first father hath sinned, and thy teachers have transgressed against me. 28 Therefore I have profaned the princes of the sanctuary, and have given Jacob to the curse, and Israel to reproaches.

Is this not also the Same Christ who became a man and dwelled among us?

Ez. 18: 31 Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

Is this not the Gospel of Christ we have also been given?

Heb. 4: 1 Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it. 2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.

Didn't Paul tell us the Law and Prophets were written specifically for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: for the Body of Christ "AFTER" the death and resurrection?

The Law and the Prophets point toward Christ; they lead us to Him, but they do not contain salvation in themselves.

But Paul teaches the Body of Christ, both Jew and Gentile in 2 Tim. 3: 15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

What "Holy Scriptures" were available to Timothy in his childhood, when Paul was persecuting the "Church of God"?

The Jesus of the Bible Himself also said: It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

If I am Led to the Christ, by the Holy Scriptures, shall I not believe the Christ's Words?

Salvation is ONLY in faith in Jesus.

The "Jesus" of the Bible to be clear.

Since He had not yet been born, lived sinlessly, died as a sacrifice, and been raised by the power of the Holy Spirit showing His power over sin and death, there is no salvation in the Old Covenant.

This is just Foolishness Brent. Paul told you the Law and Prophets make a man wise unto salvation, for those who believe them.

John 6: 61 When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you? 62 What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before? 63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

Do you not believe in the Words of this Christ?

John 8: 56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad. 57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham? 58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

And again;

Ez. 18: 31 Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

And again;

Is. 43: 25 I, even I, am he that blotteth out thy transgressions for mine own sake, and will not remember thy sins. 26 Put me in remembrance: let us plead together: declare thou, that thou mayest be justified.

Is this not the Christ?

Is. 1: 16 Wash you, make you clean; put away the evil of your doings from before mine eyes; cease to do evil; 17 Learn to do well; seek judgment, relieve the oppressed, judge the fatherless, plead for the widow. 18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool. 19 If ye be willing and obedient, ye shall eat the good of the land:

Is. 48: 12 Hearken unto me, O Jacob and Israel, my called; I am he; I am the first, I also am the last.

Rev. 22: 12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. 13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

Is this not all the Words of the Same Christ?

It is NOT the good news, but it does say that the good news is coming.

The teaching that the Law and Prophets are the "Old Covenant" that has vanished away, is a popular religious philosophy of the religions of this world. But this religious theory is not promoted in the Scriptures at all. Even God's OWN Definition of HIS Own New Covenant doesn't confirm the religious doctrine you are promoting here.

I really wish you would re-consider promoting it.

 

[Doug Brents]

But wasn't the Christ of the Bible slain from the foundation of the world?

Is. 48: 16 Come ye near unto me, hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there am I: and now the Lord GOD, and his Spirit, hath sent me. 17 Thus saith the LORD, thy Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel; I am the LORD thy God which teacheth thee to profit, which leadeth thee by the way that thou shouldest go. 18 O that thou hadst hearkened to my commandments! then had thy peace been as a river, and thy righteousness as the waves of the sea:

The plan for Jesus to die for our sins was formulated by God before He created the world, yes. But in our timeline, Jesus had not yet lived and died during the times of the Old Covenant. Yes, His life was lived fully under the Old Covenant, and He kept it perfectly (sinlessly), and now that lesser covenant has been replaced by a better covenant based on better promises with a better sacrifice.

In your religion, is this the Christ "Up where HE was before"?

Is. 43: 24 Thou hast bought me no sweet cane with money, neither hast thou filled me with the fat of thy sacrifices: but thou hast made me to serve with thy sins, thou hast wearied me with thine iniquities. 25 I, even I, am he that blotteth out thy transgressions for mine own sake, and will not remember thy sins. 26 Put me in remembrance: let us plead together: declare thou, that thou mayest be justified. 27 Thy first father hath sinned, and thy teachers have transgressed against me. 28 Therefore I have profaned the princes of the sanctuary, and have given Jacob to the curse, and Israel to reproaches.

Is this not also the Same Christ who became a man and dwelled among us?

Ez. 18: 31 Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

Is this not the Gospel of Christ we have also been given?

Heb. 4: 1 Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it. 2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.

The salvation of God that was coming was indeed preached to them under the Old Covenant, but that salvation was not delivered yet at that time.

Didn't Paul tell us the Law and Prophets were written specifically for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: for the Body of Christ "AFTER" the death and resurrection?

No, he said that "ALL Scripture" was given for doctrine, reproof, correction, and instruction in righteousness. That includes the New Covenant Scriptures that had yet to be written at that time, and the Old Covenant Scriptures that can still be used today for the history they contain, the foundation of righteousness that they depict, the knowledge of God's character, and other matters. But the Old Covenant Scriptures do not contain the laws, rules, and patterns by which we are to live today. The rules for today are in the New Covenant, because the Old has been replaced by the New.d

But Paul teaches the Body of Christ, both Jew and Gentile in 2 Tim. 3: 15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

No, Paul teaches Timothy that he (Timothy) had learned the Old Covenant Scriptures that made him wise, and that lead to him being saved by faith in Jesus. There is no salvation in the Old Covenant. The only salvation that anyone will ever find is through faith in Jesus.

If I am Led to the Christ, by the Holy Scriptures, shall I not believe the Christ's Words?

You should. Which brings me to wonder why you don't.

This is just Foolishness Brent. Paul told you the Law and Prophets make a man wise unto salvation, for those who believe them.

Is this just ignorance? Or are you in open rebellion to the Word?
The Law and Prophets make a man wise unto salvation for those who have faith in Christ. There is no salvation in belief in the Old Covenant.

John 6: 61 When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you? 62 What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before? 63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

Do you not believe in the Words of this Christ?

John 8: 56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad. 57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham? 58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

And again;

Ez. 18: 31 Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

And again;

Is. 43: 25 I, even I, am he that blotteth out thy transgressions for mine own sake, and will not remember thy sins. 26 Put me in remembrance: let us plead together: declare thou, that thou mayest be justified.

Is this not the Christ?

Is. 1: 16 Wash you, make you clean; put away the evil of your doings from before mine eyes; cease to do evil; 17 Learn to do well; seek judgment, relieve the oppressed, judge the fatherless, plead for the widow. 18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool. 19 If ye be willing and obedient, ye shall eat the good of the land:

Is. 48: 12 Hearken unto me, O Jacob and Israel, my called; I am he; I am the first, I also am the last.

Rev. 22: 12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. 13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

Is this not all the Words of the Same Christ?

Indeed, and except for the quotes from John and Revelation, those refer to Jesus before He became flesh, before He lived a sinless life, before He died to pay the cost of our sins, and before He was resurrected.

The teaching that the Law and Prophets are the "Old Covenant" that has vanished away, is a popular religious philosophy of the religions of this world. But this religious theory is not promoted in the Scriptures at all. Even God's OWN Definition of HIS Own New Covenant doesn't confirm the religious doctrine you are promoting here.

I really wish you would re-consider promoting it.

I can only speak where the Bible speaks, and promote the things that the Bible promotes. The OLD Covenant is just that: OLD. And the NEW Covenant has replaced it completely.
Heb 8:13 says this clearly.
Heb 10:9 also says this clearly.
Col 2:16-17 also tells us that the Old was a shadow of what was to come (the New), and was not the substance (the reality). The New is the reality.

 

[Studyman]

The plan for Jesus to die for our sins was formulated by God before He created the world, yes. But in our timeline, Jesus had not yet lived and died during the times of the Old Covenant. Yes, His life was lived fully under the Old Covenant, and He kept it perfectly (sinlessly), and now that lesser covenant has been replaced by a better covenant based on better promises with a better sacrifice.

I understand what "many" who come in Christ's Name, who call Jesus Lord, Lord, preach. I was addressing what the Scriptures actually say as this same Christ instructed me to do. Yes, there was a Temporary Covenant given to Israel "Because of their Transgressions" that was to be in place until the Prophesied Priest of God, AKA "Lamb of God", came.

What I understand to be untrue, is the teaching that implies that the Law and Prophets themselves, was the "Old Covenant". According to the Bible, what changed was the Priesthood, and what "vanished" was the Sacrificial "works of the Law" required for the remission of sins and to become a "priest in this Temporary Priesthood.

The salvation of God that was coming was indeed preached to them under the Old Covenant, but that salvation was not delivered yet at that time.

According to the Holy Scriptures, Abraham was not under the "OLD Covenant" that changed. It wasn't even "ADDED" until 430 years after Abraham obeyed God's Statutes and God's Commandments and God's Laws. Abraham was Justified, which I believe means his sins were forgiven, "Apart" from the "Law" that was ADDED 430 years after him.

Which means to me, that Abraham heard about and understood what the Christ his Lord, would do for him and believed. Even though he didn't see the event, he believed it would come and cleanse him.

Gen. 22: 8 And Abraham said, My son, God will provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering: so they went both of them together.

The Jesus of the Bible confirms this. "Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad."

Is this not what "Faith" is? I too, did not witness this event, yet I heard about it and I also believe, like Abraham, that my Sins are forgiven by this event that we didn't see.

No, he said that "ALL Scripture" was given for doctrine, reproof, correction, and instruction in righteousness. That includes the New Covenant Scriptures that had yet to be written at that time, and the Old Covenant Scriptures that can still be used today for the history they contain, the foundation of righteousness that they depict, the knowledge of God's character, and other matters.

Here is one place of many that the preachers of this world "who come in Christ's name" have deceived "many", as the Jesus of the Bible Prophesied. There is not even one place in the Entire Bible where to term "Old Covenant Scriptures/New Covenant Scriptures" is used. There is no such thing as "Old Covenant Scriptures". This term is created completely by men, and it implies that the Law and Prophets vanished and have passed away or been destroyed by "New Covenant" Scriptures. Which is a deception, a falsehood that Jesus Himself said to take heed of. This is why we are told to "Test the spirits".

Paul Himself told a member of the Body of Christ in good standing the following.

13 But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.

14 But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing "of whom" thou hast learned them (Not Gamaliel, Constantine, Valuntinus, Calvin or Kenneth Copeland)

15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith (Like those mentioned in Heb. 11) which is in Christ Jesus.

16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

The Absolute undeniable Biblical fact is that there were no Letters from Paul, or Matthew which existed when Timothy was a Child. There was only the Law and Prophets Jesus said not one jot or tittle would pass, until all is fulfilled. Jesus is become the New Priest and has issued in a New Priesthood as Prophesied. But "ALL" has not yet been fulfilled. If HE doesn't return as prophesied, then the whole Salvation of God is a bust. I am waiting for this Christ to return as HE Promised.

Rev. 22: 12 And, behold, I (The Jesus of the Bible) come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

Heb. 11: 39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: 40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

So then Abraham and David rest in hope, waiting for this Christ to Fulfill all things. And like them, I too "Endure to the End" in belief/Faith that the Words of this Christ are true, knowing that "many" deceivers, disguised as Apostles of Christ, who call Jesus Lord, Lord, who "Come in Christ's Name", or as Paul calls them "But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived", will try and convince me as it convinced Eve and ancient Israel, that God's "instruction in righteousness" is become irrelevant.

There are no "Old Covenant Scriptures". There is the Priesthood Covenant "After the Order of Aaron" and the Priesthood Covenant "After the Order of Melchizedek". The former required the "work" of sacrificing animals for the remission of Sins, the latter requires Faith in the Sacrifice of the Christ for remission of Sins.

The Law and Prophets are for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

Why???

Eph. 2: For we (Servants of God's Righteousness) are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained IIn the Law and Prophets) that we should walk in them.

I know how important man's religion is to them as I too, was snared to do the will of one of the "many" religious sects and franchises of this world.

My hope is that you might consider letting God define HIS Own New Covenant.

 

[Studyman]

But the Old Covenant Scriptures do not contain the laws, rules, and patterns by which we are to live today.

There is no such thing as "Old Covenant Scriptures", at least not in the Bible. But this could become truth if you were to change this man made term, into the term the Scriptures used.

"But the Levitical Priesthood contained laws, rules, and patterns by which sins were forgiven that are not required today."

That's why this Covenant "Changed". Under this old Priesthood Covenant, Jesus couldn't even become a Priest of God, as HE was not from Levi.

The rules for today are in the New Covenant, because the Old has been replaced by the New.d

You statement could be Truth, if you were to amend it.

"The rules for the remission of our sins today are in the New Priesthood Covenant God made with man, because the Old Priesthood covenant has been replaced by the New.d"

No, Paul teaches Timothy that he (Timothy) had learned the Old Covenant Scriptures that made him wise, and that lead to him being saved by faith in Jesus.

You see how you are twisting the Scriptures in order to promote your own religious philosophy here? This is why I left mainstream Christianity because this is done over and over and over to justify different doctrines of men.

Paul said "Make him wise unto salvation" which was by Faith, because there were "many" deceivers promoting deceit. When the Deceiver tried to deceive Jesus, HE did the same thing Paul is instructing Timothy to do.

Matt. 4: 4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God. (The Holy Scriptures)

But you are not teaching that at all. Just the opposite actually.

There is no salvation in the Old Covenant.

"There is no salvation in the Old Priesthood Covenant."

If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?

If you were to go to the Holy Scriptures where God Defines HIS OWN New Covenant, you would find only 2 things that changed.

#1. The manner in which God's LAW is Administered.

#2. The manner in which Sins are forgiven.

Both were exclusive duties of the Priesthood "After the Order of Aaron".

There is no hint, no implication, not even the suggestion that the Law and Prophets, or God's Laws contained therein, would become obsolete. Only the Priesthood Covenant God gave to Levi after the Golden Calf changed. Hebrews 7-10 clearly confirm this. And rightly so, For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.

But "Thou shall not Steal" is still as valid today as it was when Abraham obeyed it.

The only salvation that anyone will ever find is through faith in Jesus.

Jesus told me "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.". And HE also told me "It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God".

This is the same thing HE told Abraham, before Jesus became a man.

Gen. 1: 1 And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect.

Paul, inspired by the Spirit of the Christ of the Bible, teaches the body of Christ both Jew and Gentile;

2 Tim. 3: 16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

Paul also teaches that the "Unrighteous" shall not enter the Kingdom of God. So it's obvious why a man would need God to define His Righteousness. How can I be in the Body of Christ, and be a Servant of God's Righteousness as Paul teaches, if I am not instructed in God's Righteousness? And where did Paul say the Righteousness of God is revealed? The Gospel of Christ, wherein it is written "The Just shall live by faith".

Jesus also said;

Matt. 5: 17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. He said not to even "Think" such a thing as you are promoting, and yet your entire religious philosophy is founded on the belief that the Law and Prophets have vanished and become obsolete and is the Old Covenant Spoken of in Jer. 31.

Obviously, "all" has not yet been fulfilled, as HE has yet to return and brought His Reward.

You don't preach any of these things. In fact, you preach the opposite in my view. I know it's not you because you mean no harm, but the religious philosophy you have adopted and are promoting is the issue.

If I am Saved by God through the Faith "that was in the Jesus of the Bible", would I not trust God and His Word as HE did? And if I am saved by Faith "in the Jesus of the Bible", would I not trust HIS every Word?

And yet, I post them, and you refuse to even acknowledge them, much less discuss them.

You should. Which brings me to wonder why you don't.

It's your preaching that I don't believe in, not the Christ of the Bible's Words I post, but you ignore.

Is this just ignorance? Or are you in open rebellion to the Word?
The Law and Prophets make a man wise unto salvation for those who have faith in Christ. There is no salvation in belief in the Old Covenant.

This is your religion, not what the Holy Scriptures teach. Paul calls the Law and Prophets the Gospel of Christ. I know this world's religions preach another gospel, but I was hoping you might be persuaded by what is actually written. I guess Jesus certainly knows what HE is talking about.

Luke 16: 29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. 30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. 31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

No Brent, I am not in open rebellion to the Word. Only to this world's religious men who profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.

The Law and Prophets is not the "Old Covenant" God Changed. Paul said they were written specifically for the Body of Christ, "to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted." "Wherefore" let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.

Indeed, and except for the quotes from John and Revelation, those refer to Jesus before He became flesh, before He lived a sinless life, before He died to pay the cost of our sins, and before He was resurrected.

This assumes that the Gospel of the Christ of the Bible was different after HE was murdered than it was before HE was murdered. There is nothing in Scriptures which even imply this. Actually, just the opposite.

Ez. 18: 31 Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

My whole point here is to point out the difference between what this world's religions, "who come in Christ's name" that Jesus said to "take heed of" preaches, and what the Scriptures actually say. Not because I don't Love the brethren, but because I do.

 

[Gary K]

I am not speaking of the 10 Commandments, nor of the Law of Moses, but of the Old Covenant as a whole: the entirety of the Old Covenant, of which the Law of Moses was a small part.

The commandment to be circumcised is not originally part of the Law of Moses. It predates the Law by more than 400 years, being commanded of Abraham near the beginning of the Covenant which God made with him. And it was incorporated into the Law because it was part of the Covenant made with Abraham. But what does Gal 5:2-6 say? "Look! I, Paul, tell you that if you have yourselves circumcised, Christ will be of no benefit to you. 3 And I testify again to every man who has himself circumcised, that he is obligated to keep the whole Law. 4 You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by the Law; you have fallen from grace. 5 For we, through the Spirit, by faith, are waiting for the hope of righteousness. 6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything, but faith working through love."
Circumcision, one of the backbone commandments of the OT, is, here in this passage, made null and void in the New Covenant.

Now, I am not debating that murder, adultery, coveting, disrespect to parents or to authority, etc. are now righteous. They are not, because they are all expounded in the New Covenant as being sinful still. But keeping the sabbath, and circumcision, and keeping the "Holy Days" (festivals) are not part of the New Covenant. They were either omitted, or are expressly excluded, from the listing of what is required in the New Covenant.

In what I emphasized you are mistaken,

Exo 24:7 And he took the book of the covenant, and read in the audience of the people: and they said, All that the LORD hath said will we do, and be obedient.

The 10 commandments were the entire old covenant and new covenant.

Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
Jer 31:32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
Jer 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
Jer 31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

Edit:

After I posted I realized this post is open to misunderstanding so I added the following scripture.

Exo 34:27 And the LORD said unto Moses, Write thou these words: for after the tenor of these words I have made a covenant with thee and with Israel.
Exo 34:28 And he was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights; he did neither eat bread, nor drink water. And he wrote upon the tables the words of the covenant, the ten commandments.

 

[Cornelius8L]

Allow me to digress for a bit, but I had a thought.

Is Christianity being established solely on the basis of theological research?

“For the kingdom of God is not a matter of talk but of power.” (1 Cor 4:20, 2 Tim 3:7)​

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“And if a revelation comes to someone who is seated, the first speaker should stop. For you can all prophesy in turn so that everyone may be instructed and encouraged.” (1 Cor 14:30-31, 12:31, 14:1)​

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“For it is not the one who commends himself who is approved, but the one whom the Lord commends.” (2 Cor 10:18, Rom 8:30)​

The leaders of the Apostolic church have spiritual gifts because God was with them, and they taught the believers to seek these gifts since they were direct indicators of God's approval. (Acts 5:16, 21:10-11; Mark 16:17). A "religion" must have a living God who demonstrates His existence; it is not intended to be a society of people who rely solely on the records of scripture passed down from generation to generation. Buddhism, Hinduism, and other religions each have their own set of scriptures. The Most High has done numerous things in the Bible and is never completely silent. If the prayer of a righteous man has immense power to prevail, Prophet Elijah was a man like us, he prayed earnestly that it would not rain, and it did not rain on the land for three and a half years (Jam 5:17), were our prayers as effective before we began to contend with others about the truth? If, after all of our research, we find that there is no power/gift in us as taught in the Bible, we have already verified that we are on the wrong track because the scripture expresses these. What I mean is, don't you think Satan tricked us all into misinterpreting our religion and reducing it to a mere body of information with no power, and yet we're still correcting one another about the "text"?