Thunder Lauriston lecture on "Why Sunday worship cannot be the Mark of the Beast"

[Servus]

No James determines how it is to be understood, you seem to be disagreeing with James...it truly cannot be any clearer the law he is referring to, the Ten Commandments- he is only contrasting from the Ten Commandments, and you would have to insert a different law that is not there to make your argument work.

James 2:10 For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all. 11 For He who said, “Do not commit adultery,” also said, “Do not murder.” Now if you do not commit adultery, but you do murder, you have become a transgressor of the law. 12 So speak and so do as those who will be judged by the law of liberty.

The law being referred to here is the Ten Commandments and NO MORE was added Deuteronomy 5:22

No I'm disagreeing with a particular interpretation of James.

Also if you look up what the "royal law" is, you'll see that it's "love your neighbour as yourself". Just as "do to others as you'd have them do to you" is the "golden rule". The exception to that will be the SDA interpretation or the similar/identical Armstrongism interpretation or some other source that's comparable to SDA and Armstrongism.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

No I'm disagreeing with a particular interpretation of James.

Also if you look up what the "royal law" is, you'll see that it's "love your neighbour as yourself". Just as "do to others as you'd have then do to you" is the "golden rule". The exception to that will be the SDA interpretation or the similar/identical Armstrongism interpretation or some other source that's comparable to SDA and Armstrongism.

Do you think you can love your neighbor as yourself and love God by breaking the commandments? 1 John 5:2-3 disagrees.

 

[Servus]

Do you think you can love your neighbor as yourself and love God by breaking the commandments? 1 John 3:4-5 disagrees.

I'm saying the "royal law" is "love your neighbor as yourself". And that's what James 2 is about. And the breaking of commandments according to SDA doctrine is going to church on sunday instead of saturday and calling sunday the sabbath instead of saturday. At its core, that's what it boils down to.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

I'm saying the "royal law" is "love your neighbor as yourself". And that's what James 2 is about. And the breaking of commandments in SDA doctrine is going to church on sunday instead of saturday and calling sunday the sabbath instead of saturday. At its core, that's what it boils down to.

I accidently quoted the wrong scripture I corrected it now

We cannot keep the Royal law- the greatest commandments by breaking God's commandments. The Royal law is fulfilled by love and love is keeping the commandments of God, not breaking them. Just common sense can we love God by worshipping other gods? Can we love neighbor by coveting what they have, this applies to all of the commandments Love is the fulfillment of the law and love to God and neighbor is keeping the commandments of God

1 John 5:2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and keep His commandments. 3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome.

As stated for a few times, it not just church on Sabbath, that's part of it, its being in full submission to God and obeying what He asks through love and faith.

Looks like we will have to agree to disagree and this all gets sorted out soon enough.

 

[Servus]

As stated for a few times, it not just church on Sabbath, that's part of it, its being in full submission to God and obeying what He asks through love and faith.

Right but the full submission part in question is going to church on sunday instead of saturday and calling sunday the sabbath instead of saturday. And not eating unclean animals. If the rest of the denominations agreed with SDA on those two, then there wouldn't be any significant division. Except maybe also annihilationism vs damnationism.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Right but the full submission part in question is going to church on sunday instead of saturday and calling sunday the sabbath instead of saturday. And not eating unclean animals. If the rest of the denominations agreed with SDA on those two, then there wouldn't be any significant division. Except maybe also annihilationism vs damnationism.

Where is the commandment to keep the first day holy. Where did God bless, sanctify or make holy the first day? Where does it say the first day is God's holy day? Where does it say we will be worshipping the Lord on the first day in heaven? No where in scripture, these are only reserved for the seventh day Sabbath. God said all days are working days Exodus 20:9 except the seventh day Sabbath, which we are to keep holy Exodus 20:8 designated as the day to honor Him Isaiah 58:13. Keeping another day in lieu of the day God sanctified for holy use, seems similar to the story of Cain and Abel. One sacrificed the way God instructed, the other did what they wanted instead- God only accepted one. God is particular and when we start thinking we know what's best instead of His written Word, that seems dangerous imho and what scripture warns us of Isaiah 8:20. I think its important to obey God the way He asks. It’s not just about Sunday vs Sabbath, its about obeying God. Sunday is probably a more convenient day to keep holy, but God not only spoke the Sabbath commandment, He wrote it, the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord Exodus 20:10 and we are to keep the Sabbath day holy Exodus 20:8. If God asked us to keep the third day holy who are we to argue or change that? God knows what He is doing and we need to trust Him.

 

[Servus]

Where is the commandment to keep the first day holy. Where did God bless, sanctify or make holy the first day? Where does it say the first day is God's holy day? Where does it say we will be worshipping the Lord on the first day in heaven? No where in scripture, these are only reserved for the seventh day Sabbath. God said all days are working days Exodus 20:9 except the seventh day Sabbath, which we are to keep holy Exodus 20:8 designated as the day to honor Him Isaiah 58:13. Keeping another day in lieu of the day God sanctified for holy use, seems similar to the story of Cain and Abel. One sacrificed the way God instructed, the other did what they wanted instead- God only accepted one. God is particular and when we start thinking we know what's best instead of His written Word, that seems dangerous imho and what scripture warns us of Isaiah 8:20. I think its important to obey God the way He asks. It’s not just about Sunday vs Sabbath, its about obeying God. Sunday is probably a more convenient day to keep holy, but God not only spoke the Sabbath commandment, He wrote it, the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord Exodus 20:10 and we are to keep the Sabbath day holy Exodus 20:8. If God asked us to keep the third day holy who are we to argue or change that? God knows what He is doing and we need to trust Him.

In all of that you said "it’s not just about sunday vs sabbath" but all of the rest of it was about that. Or more specifically saturday vs sunday.

As for the first day, you know the significance of that day. It's the day that everything the old testament leads up to transpired. The Resurrection. The single greatest day and event in all of scripture that took place between God and mankind.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

In all of that you said "it’s not just about sunday vs sabbath" but all of the rest of it was about that. Or more specifically saturday vs sunday.

Man made it about Sunday versus Sabbath- God didn't there is no argument in all of scripture which day was God's holy day

As for the first day, you know the significance of that day. It's the day that everything the old testament leads up to transpired. The Resurrection. The single greatest day and event in all of scripture that took place between God and mankind.

If only you had a text that said Sunday is now the new Sabbath or new day of worship, the lack of scripture should be of concern.

 

[Leaf473]

For me, if I were to say that worship on Sunday must be the mark of the beast because of things in the law of Moses, I would want to have a really good system for separating the things in the law of Moses to be done today and those that have passed.

Bible Gateway passage: Deuteronomy 6:8 - New International Reader's Version

Write them down and tie them on your hands as a reminder. Also tie them on your foreheads.

www.biblegateway.com

 

[Servus]

Man made it about Sunday versus Sabbath- God didn't there is no argument in all of scripture which day was God's holy day

If only you had a text that said Sunday is now the new Sabbath or new day of worship, the lack of scripture should be of concern.

As for scripture regarding the authority of the founding apostles of his church Jesus said:

"And I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.” Matthew 16:19

To which Paul a founding apostle of Jesus' church wrote:

One person esteems one day above another; another esteems every day alike. Let each be fully convinced in his own mind. 6 He who observes the day, observes it to the Lord; and he who does not observe the day, to the Lord he does not observe it. He who eats, eats to the Lord, for he gives God thanks; and he who does not eat, to the Lord he does not eat, and gives God thanks. 7 For none of us lives to himself, and no one dies to himself. Romans 14:5-7

Having canceled the charge of our legal indebtedness, which stood against us and condemned us; he has taken it away, nailing it to the cross. 15 And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross.
16 Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. 17 These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ. Colossians 2:14-17

Then around one thousand eight hundred and fifty years later, the founder of the SDA denomonation came up with the idea that going to church on sunday is the mark of the beast.

 

[HIM]

I believe we've talked about this before, and if I remember right, the idea is that the statutes and Commandments are to be kept, while the judgments and ordinances ended.

How about giving us an example of each from the law of Moses? Like, an example of a statute, an example of a commandment... and so on.

Then I could see how it works

Do you see the new covenant in 29:1 and 30:10-14? Pertaining to your inquiry we are Looking through Deut. We will post when done.

 

[Leaf473]

Do you see the new covenant in 29:1 and 30:10-14?

Well, I don't think it's in Deuteronomy 29:1. The New Covenant is not like the Covenant God made with the Israelites when he brought them out of Egypt.

Bible Gateway passage: Deuteronomy 29:1 - New International Reader's Version

Obey the Terms of the Covenant - Here are the terms of the covenant the LORD commanded Moses to make with the Israelites in Moab. The terms were added to the covenant he had made with them at Mount Horeb.

www.biblegateway.com

Pertaining to your inquiry we are Looking through Deut. We will post when done.

Sorry, is that one sentence or two? I can't make sense out of it

 

[Leaf473]

Do you see the new covenant in 29:1 and 30:10-14?

I don't see it in Deuteronomy 30:10-14. That references the book of the law that Moses wrote, which contains the terms of the Covenant that God made with Israel when they came out of Egypt.

Bible Gateway passage: Deuteronomy 30:10-14 - New International Reader's Version

But you must obey the LORD your God. You must keep his commands and rules. They are written in this Book of the Law. You must turn to the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul. Choose Life, Not Death - What I’m commanding you today is not too hard for you. It isn’t beyond your...

www.biblegateway.com

 

[Leaf473]

Bible Gateway passage: Jeremiah 31:32 - New International Reader's Version

It will not be like the covenant I made with their people of long ago. That was when I took them by the hand. I led them out of Egypt. But they broke my covenant. They did it even though I was like a husband to them,” announces the LORD.

www.biblegateway.com

 

[SabbathBlessings]

As for scripture regarding the authority of the founding apostles of his church Jesus said:

"And I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.” Matthew 16:19

(staff edit) it doesn't mean the apostles have the authority to change anything and they didn't,

Matthew 28:20 teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” Amen.

The apostles did not teach gospel preaching God's Word every Sunday, only on the Sabbath Acts 18:4 and continued and taught to keep the commandments of God 1 Cor 7:19 and the Sabbath is a commandment of God despite man's rebellion to it.

To which Paul a founding apostle of Jesus' church wrote:

One person esteems one day above another; another esteems every day alike. Let each be fully convinced in his own mind. 6 He who observes the day, observes it to the Lord; and he who does not observe the day, to the Lord he does not observe it. He who eats, eats to the Lord, for he gives God thanks; and he who does not eat, to the Lord he does not eat, and gives God thanks. 7 For none of us lives to himself, and no one dies to himself. Romans 14:5-7

Read the whole chapter not one mention of the seventh day Sabbath commandment. You are adding to what is not there.

Having canceled the charge of our legal indebtedness, which stood against us and condemned us; he has taken it away, nailing it to the cross. 15 And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross.
16 Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. 17 These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ. Colossians 2:14-17

If you back up to Colossians 2:14 KJV it makes this passage abundantly clear it is not referring to one of God's commandments. There is more than one Sabbath in the Bible. There is the weekly Sabbath that is a commandment of God and part of God’s eternal Ten Commandments and the annual sabbath(s) that are the yearly feasts days and are ordinances. The weekly Sabbath came before sin Genesis 2:1-3 the annual sabbath(s) was because of sin- after the fall.

Colossians 2:14
Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

So we know this from Colossians 2:14:
1. They are handwritten
2. They are ordinances
3. They are contrary.

Does this fit the Sabbath commandment in any way? Absolutely not.
1. The Sabbath was finger-written by God (not by hand) Exodus 31:18 Exodus 32:16
2. The Sabbath is a commandment of God (not an ordinance). Exodus 20, Exodus 34:28
3. God said the Sabbath is holy and blessed (not cursed and contrary) Exodus 20:8-11 Genesis 2:1-3

What Colossians 2:14 is referring to:

1. They are ordinances that have to do with sacrifices

Exodus 12:43 And the Lord said to Moses and Aaron, “This is the ordinance of the Passover:
Ezekiel 43:18 And He said to me, “Son of man, thus says the Lord God: ‘These are the ordinances for the altar on the day when it is made, for sacrificing burnt offerings on it, and for sprinkling blood on it.

2. They were handwritten
2 Chronicles 33:8 Neither will I any more remove the foot of Israel from out of the land which I have appointed for your fathers; so that they will take heed to do all that I have commanded them, according to the whole law and the statutes and the ordinances by the hand of Moses.
Deuteronomy 31:24 So it was, when Moses had completed writing the words of this law in a book, when they were finished,

3. They were contrary
Deuteronomy 31:26 “Take this Book of the Law, and put it beside the ark of the covenant of the Lord your God, that it may be there as a witness against you;


Its very clear this passage is referring to the blood sacrifices for the forgiveness of sins which pointed to Jesus as He became our Sacrificial Lamb for the forgiveness of sins and sanctification when we turn from sin (breaking God's law 1 John 3:4, Romans 7:7) and turn to Christ and walk in obedience to Him. John 14:15

Hebrews 10:1 For the law, having a shadow of the good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with these same sacrifices, which they offer continually year by year, make those who approach perfect. 2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? For the worshipers, once purified, would have had no more consciousness of sins. 3 But in those sacrifices there is a reminder of sins every year. 4 For it isnot possible that the blood of bulls and goats could take away sins.

Look familiar? Colossians 2:17 which are a shadow of things to come, but the substance is of Christ. Christ became our Passover Sacrificial Lamb for the forgiveness of sins. 1 Corinthians 5:7 It has nothing to do with the weekly Sabbath which is one of God's eternal commandments written by God's own finger, spoke by God's own voice which God placed together and no man can separate as it resides in God's heavenly kingdom Revelation 11:19.

 

[Servus]

This is Catholic nonsense and it doesn't mean the apostles have the authority to change anything and they didn't,

Matthew 28:20 teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” Amen.

The apostles did not teach gospel preaching God's Word every Sunday, only on the Sabbath Acts 18:4 and continued and taught to keep the commandments of God 1 Cor 7:19 and the Sabbath is a commandment of God despite man's rebellion to it.

Read the whole chapter not one mention of the seventh day Sabbath commandment. You are adding to what is not there.

If you back up to Colossians 2:14 KJV it makes this passage abundantly clear it is not referring to one of God's commandments. There is more than one Sabbath in the Bible. There is the weekly Sabbath that is a commandment of God and part of God’s eternal Ten Commandments and the annual sabbath(s) that are the yearly feasts days and are ordinances. The weekly Sabbath came before sin Genesis 2:1-3 the annual sabbath(s) was because of sin- after the fall.

Colossians 2:14
Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

So we know this from Colossians 2:14:
1. They are handwritten
2. They are ordinances
3. They are contrary.

Does this fit the Sabbath commandment in any way? Absolutely not.
1. The Sabbath was finger-written by God (not by hand) Exodus 31:18 Exodus 32:16
2. The Sabbath is a commandment of God (not an ordinance). Exodus 20, Exodus 34:28
3. God said the Sabbath is holy and blessed (not cursed and contrary) Exodus 20:8-11 Genesis 2:1-3

What Colossians 2:14 is referring to:

1. They are ordinances that have to do with sacrifices

Exodus 12:43 And the Lord said to Moses and Aaron, “This is the ordinance of the Passover:
Ezekiel 43:18 And He said to me, “Son of man, thus says the Lord God: ‘These are the ordinances for the altar on the day when it is made, for sacrificing burnt offerings on it, and for sprinkling blood on it.

2. They were handwritten
2 Chronicles 33:8 Neither will I any more remove the foot of Israel from out of the land which I have appointed for your fathers; so that they will take heed to do all that I have commanded them, according to the whole law and the statutes and the ordinances by the hand of Moses.
Deuteronomy 31:24 So it was, when Moses had completed writing the words of this law in a book, when they were finished,

3. They were contrary
Deuteronomy 31:26 “Take this Book of the Law, and put it beside the ark of the covenant of the Lord your God, that it may be there as a witness against you;


Its very clear this passage is referring to the blood sacrifices for the forgiveness of sins which pointed to Jesus as He became our Sacrificial Lamb for the forgiveness of sins and sanctification when we turn from sin (breaking God's law 1 John 3:4, Romans 7:7) and turn to Christ and walk in obedience to Him. John 14:15

Hebrews 10:1 For the law, having a shadow of the good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with these same sacrifices, which they offer continually year by year, make those who approach perfect. 2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? For the worshipers, once purified, would have had no more consciousness of sins. 3 But in those sacrifices there is a reminder of sins every year. 4 For it isnot possible that the blood of bulls and goats could take away sins.

Look familiar? Colossians 2:17 which are a shadow of things to come, but the substance is of Christ. Christ became our Passover Sacrificial Lamb for the forgiveness of sins. 1 Corinthians 5:7 It has nothing to do with the weekly Sabbath which is one of God's eternal commandments written by God's own finger, spoke by God's own voice which God placed together and no man can separate as it resides in God's heavenly kingdom Revelation 11:19.

It's interesting how much of the scripture used in SDA doctrine actually speaks against it.

It seems like Ellen took the scriptures about the sabbath and the law and the orthodox view regarding them, and twisted their meaning to use aginst the church. Which is why so much scripture that actually speaks against her doctrine is used to support her doctrine.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

It's interesting how much of the scripture used in SDA doctrine actually speaks against it.

Against what, changing Gods commandments we are told not Deut 4:2 or any of His Word Proverbs 30:5-6. We were warned the Sabbath would be changed Dan 7:25 but not by God and it is ecatly what happened and those who changed the Sabbath admit there is no scripture authority to do so. When we go away from God's Word there is danger Isaiah 8:20 so the misunderstanding of some verses, do not reconcile with clear scripture warnings us not to change God's Word.

It is well to remind the Presbyterians, Baptists, Methodists, and all other Christians, that the Bible does not support them anywhere in their observance of Sunday. Sunday is an institution of the Roman Catholic Church, and those who observe the day observe a commandment of the Catholic Church.
—Priest Brady, in an address, reported in the Elizabeth, NJ ‘News’ on March 18, 1903.

Q. Have you any other way of proving that the Church has power to institute festivals of precept?
A. Had she not such power, she could not have done that in which all modern religionists agree with her; —she could not have substituted the observance of Sunday the first day of the week, for the observance of Saturday the seventh day, a change for which there is no Scriptural authority.
—Rev. Stephen Keenan, A Doctrinal Catechism; New York in 1857, page 174

We can either follow the commandments of man or the commandments of God. Jesus tells us which path to take. Matthew 15:3-9

 

[SabbathBlessings]

I ran those names and quotes through Google and SDA websites came up. Everything you're posting is what you were taught by a denomonation that speaks against all others that don't hold the view it came up with.

You need to dig a little deeper, those quotes did not comes the SDA church, those are only a few to many and its well documented about the change in the Sabbath, which did not come from scripture.

It seems like Ellen took the scriptures about the sabbath and the law and the orthodox view regarding them, and twisted their meaning to use against all others. Which is why so much scripture that actually speaks against her doctrine is used to support her doctrine.

Thats your opinion, but the Truth is God wrote the Sabbath commandment with His own finger and spoke it with His own voice, Exodus 20:8-11, Deut 4:13, Exodus 32:16 not Ellen. When we rebel from this commandment it is not in rebellion from Ellen, but from God. God rises prophets to bring us back to His Word because He has compassion on His people but sadly, they are usually mocked and ignored 2 Chr 36:15-16

​

 

[Servus]

You need to dig a little deeper, those quotes did not comes the SDA church, those are only a few to many and its well documented about the change in the Sabbath, which did not come from scripture.

Like I said, when I Googled those names and quotes I got SDA websites and blogs and also websites and blogs dedicated to the teachings of Herbert W. Armstrong.

Thats your opinion, but the Truth is God wrote the Sabbath commandment with His own finger and spoke it with His own voice, Exodus 20:8-11, Deut 4:13, Exodus 32:16 not Ellen. When we rebel from this commandment it is not in rebellion from Ellen, but from God. God rises prophets to bring us back to His Word because He has compassion on His people but sadly, they are usually mocked and ignored 2 Chro 26:15-16

Most of what you post has already been written in SDA books, periodicals, tracts and websites. And in the teachings of Herbert W. Armstrong.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Like I said, when I Googled those names and quotes I got SDA websites and blogs and also websites and blogs dedicated to the teachings of Herbert W. Armstrong.

Most of what you post has already been written in SDA books, periodicals, tracts and websites. And in the teachings of Herbert W. Armstrong.

Why don't you try looking at the direct source? Herbert W. Armstrong is not part of the Seventh day Adventist Church, but believes in the biblical Sabbath, like many other 7 day Sabbath keeping churches.

Same with scripture....

these are not the Words of Ellen White- the Sabbath is a commandment of God, written personally by God.

20 And God spoke all these words, saying:

2 “I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of [a]bondage.
3 “You shall have no other gods before Me.
4 “You shall not make for yourself a carved image—any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; 5 you shall not bow down to them nor [b]serve them. For I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting[c] the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me, 6 but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.
7 “You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain, for the Lord will not hold him guiltless who takes His name in vain.
8 “Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord your God. In it you shall do no work: you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your male servant, nor your female servant, nor your cattle, nor your stranger who is within your gates. 11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it.
12 “Honor your father and your mother, that your days may be long upon the land which the Lord your God is giving you.
13 “You shall not murder.
14 “You shall not commit adultery.
15 “You shall not steal.
16 “You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.
17 “You shall not covet your neighbor’s house; you shall not covet your neighbor’s wife, nor his male servant, nor his female servant, nor his ox, nor his donkey, nor anything that is your neighbor’s.”