Thunder Lauriston lecture on "Why Sunday worship cannot be the Mark of the Beast"

[ozso]

One would also expect that within seventh day observant groups, scholars would have come up with lists already. But I haven't found one.

Observant Jews are known for carefully observing the seventh day. They have a list. I don't agree with it, but I applaud the attempt that they made

https://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/756399/jewish/The-613-Commandments-Mitzvot.htm

I once asked a Messianic Christian if he wore tassels. He said, "Of course! Like I said, I fulfill the Torah. I belong to YHWH." Now that's someone who really keeps the commandments. Rather than someone who only keeps part of Leviticus 11 and the Sabbath in a piecemeal fashion.

 

[BobRyan]

Here is the actual OP for those who have an interest in the topic of this thread.

the fact we know the Church worshipped on Sunday and it's meaning in light of the Resurrection.

There are no "every sunday" worship services in the NT - but there are "Every SAbbath" Acts 18:4 ones mentioned.

The Church just did not preach the Resurrection, but making Sunday the primary day for worship was another way of emphasizing and preaching and bearing witness

No such every sunday worship and Gospel preaching statements in the NT by the early first century church - but we do have e "Every SAbbath" Acts 18:4 ones mentioned.

to that truth that is the most important truth for humanity (The Gospel that is the Death, Burial and Resurrection of Jesus and what it means for us).

Which we see Paul preaching "every Sabbath" in Acts 18:4 to both gentiles and Jews.
We see him doing it "Sabbath after Sabbath after Sabbath" in Acts 17
We see gentiles who listen to Paul's gospel preaching on Sabbath specifically request for MORE Gospel preaching to be scheduled for "The Next Sabbath" in Acts 13.

What if we had some people posting here at this point - still interested in the OP and title of the thread?

I once asked a Messianic Christian if he wore tassels

Sounds like a great topic for another thread.

 

[Leaf473]

People that say they reject the TEN as stated in scripture - often seek to find ways to discuss "something else...anything else" when the TEN come up as the subject.

I don't reject the ten. I believe your theology about keeping parts of the law is in error.

I find it interesting that those same people find it very difficult to address the title of the thread, the OP etc in their interest to talk about something "else"

I have talked about the title of the thread and the OP. But as often happens with threads in the Sabbath and the law, the same subjects tend to come up.

One of those subjects is which laws to keep. A great way to resolve that subject would be to post the passages in scripture where the actual laws are found that a person believes we are to keep

Bible Gateway passage: Deuteronomy 6:2 - New Century Version

You, your children, and your grandchildren must respect the LORD your God as long as you live. Obey all his rules and commands I give you so that you will live a long time.

www.biblegateway.com

 

[Leaf473]

We started with the TEN in Deut 5:22, but you found that to be a bit difficult to accept. Is it your view that you prefer something even easier?

No, I didn't find it difficult to accept.

We all want a theology that deals with the entire bible, do we not? A theology that can only deal with parts of the scriptures isn't going to work.

On the contrary you claim to reject the TEN as stated in scripture - in your own post on that point.

So then having rejected the TEN by your own statement - you want to find "more"??

Which post are you referring to?

True. It is in the Bible that we find the TEN. and it is in the TEN that we find the Sabbath commandment and it is in the Sabbath commandment details that we find the topic of this thread.

Whenever you're ready to talk about how the theology you present works with the rest of the scriptures, I'm interested

Bible Gateway passage: 2 Timothy 3:16 - Complete Jewish Bible

All Scripture is God-breathed and is valuable for teaching the truth, convicting of sin, correcting faults and training in right living;

www.biblegateway.com

 

[Leaf473]

So then having rejected the TEN by your own statement - you want to find "more"??

I don't reject the 10. You may be referring to the idea that I don't think we are to keep the 10 to the letter. But it's misleading to stay that way: I don't think we are to keep any laws to the letter.

I have already found all the laws in the law of Moses. That's why I'm interested in discussing how people try to divide them up

Bible Gateway passage: Deuteronomy 1:3 - New American Standard Bible

In the fortieth year, on the first day of the eleventh month, Moses spoke to the sons of Israel, in accordance with everything that the LORD had commanded him to declare to them,

www.biblegateway.com

 

[Leaf473]

Is that the topic of this thread?

It's definitely related. If a coherent theology could be presented that dealt with the entire law and showed that the seventh day is still to be observed, then Sunday worship possibly could be the mark of the beast, sure

Bible Gateway passage: Leviticus 26:34 - New International Reader's Version

Then the deserted land will enjoy its sabbath years. It will rest. It will not be farmed. It will enjoy its sabbaths. But you will become prisoners in the country of your enemies.

www.biblegateway.com

 

[Leaf473]

I once asked a Messianic Christian if he wore tassels. He said, "Of course! Like I said, I fulfill the Torah. I belong to YHWH." Now that's someone who really keeps the commandments. Rather than someone who only keeps part of Leviticus 11 and the Sabbath in a piecemeal fashion.

Yep! I disagree with Messianics about other things, but they don't divide up the law.

Bible Gateway passage: Deuteronomy 5:31 - New International Reader's Version

But you stay here with me. Then I will give you all my commands, rules and laws. You must teach the people to obey them in the land I am giving them as their very own.”

www.biblegateway.com

 

[Leaf473]

Deut 30:10-014 says commandments and statutes contained in the Book of the Law, the Word is in our heart and mouth. Ordinances and judements are not mentioned. Lev 19 makes no mention of anything being in the heart and mouth. Deut. 30:10-14 which is the New Covenant, the Word in our hearts that we do it, is being given prior to Israel entering the promised land. The land of Milk and honey.

I believe we've talked about this before, and if I remember right, the idea is that the statutes and Commandments are to be kept, while the judgments and ordinances ended.

How about giving us an example of each from the law of Moses? Like, an example of a statute, an example of a commandment... and so on.

Then I could see how it works

 

[ozso]

I don't reject the 10. You may be referring to the idea that I don't think we are to keep the 10 to the letter. But it's misleading to stay that way: I don't think we are to keep any laws to the letter.

I have already found all the laws in the law of Moses. That's why I'm interested in discussing how people try to divide them up

Bible Gateway passage: Deuteronomy 1:3 - New American Standard Bible

In the fortieth year, on the first day of the eleventh month, Moses spoke to the sons of Israel, in accordance with everything that the LORD had commanded him to declare to them,

www.biblegateway.com

The angle is if you break the fourth one of the ten, you break and reject all ten. Therefore since you reject the ten, because you don't keep the fourth, there's no point in telling you the rest of the commandments you're still supposed to obey. It's a pretty good strategy to avoid the question.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

The angle is if you break the fourth one of the ten, you break and reject all ten. Therefore since you reject the ten, because you don't keep the fourth, there's no point in telling you the rest of the commandments you're still supposed to obey. It's a pretty good strategy to avoid the question.

You must think we wrote James 2:10-12 when all scripture is written by the Holy Spirit. 2 Tim 3:16

 

[ozso]

You must think we wrote James 2:10-12 when all scripture is written by the Holy Spirit. 2 Tim 3:16

I think the SDA church wrote a doctrine on how James 2:10-12 is supposed to be interpreted.

 

[ozso]

You must think we wrote James 2:10-12 when all scripture is written by the Holy Spirit. 2 Tim 3:16

the SDA church wrote a doctrine on how James 2:10-12 is supposed to be interpreted. That doctrine being James was saying only the ten commandments are the whole law, even though James starts out quoting Leviticus in verse 8.

8 If you really keep the royal law found in Scripture, “Love your neighbor as yourself,” [ Leviticus 19:18 ] you are doing right. 9 But if you show favoritism, you sin and are convicted by the law as lawbreakers. 10 For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it. 11 For he who said, “You shall not commit adultery,”[Exodus 20:14] also said, “You shall not murder.”[Exodus 20:13] If you do not commit adultery but do commit murder, you have become a lawbreaker. James 2:8-12

The passage of course is about not showing favoritism and the primary verse used in that passage to condemn favoritism is Leviticus 19:18 which is "Do not seek revenge or bear a grudge against anyone among your people, but love your neighbor as yourself. I am the Lord."

Therfore it's obvious the whole law James is referring to is the entire law written in Leviticus along with the rest of the entire Torah.

But SDA doctrine changed that to the whole law only meaning the ten commandments. Even though SDA doctrine adds in part of Leviticus 11, but apparently has nothing to say about the rest of the entire law written in the Torah. Which results in only partial law keeping.

 

[Leaf473]

The angle is if you break the fourth one of the ten, you break and reject all ten. Therefore since you reject the ten, because you don't keep the fourth, there's no point in telling you the rest of the commandments you're still supposed to obey. It's a pretty good strategy to avoid the question.

Yes, I agree it's a good strategy to avoid the question. But... Why come on a discussion forum and attempt to avoid questions? I suppose the obvious answer is because one is basically here to proselytize.

A random Bible verse, just because it's cool to be able to post them

Bible Gateway passage: Psalm 136:8 - New International Reader's Version

He made the sun to rule over the day. His faithful love continues forever.

www.biblegateway.com

 

[Leaf473]

(just by way of explaining what's going on here, @SabbathBlessings asked me not to talk to her about the law. So I'll just comment on post #390 in a general way, addressed to everyone.)

I certainly think that God inspired James to write that passage.

The idea I'm hearing is: keep the Ten Commandments to the letter, then God will give you the Holy Spirit, and you'll know which laws from the law of Moses to keep. And you'll keep those laws to the letter, too.

Two issues:
There's more than one group that keep the Sabbath according to that standard. But they have wildly different views of what other laws to keep.

Suppose a person keeps the 10 but eats unclean foods. Will that person still receive the Holy Spirit to know about the other laws? In other words, you have to know all the laws to keep in order to receive the Spirit to know all the laws to keep.
_________________
It seems totally out of character for God to have a set of secret Commandments. I can agree that we need the Spirit to understand the scriptures. But the idea that the Spirit has told certain people about laws and then forbidden them to tell others? That sounds more like a fringe group centered around secret knowledge.

We're told to talk about all the Commandments, pretty much all the time.

Bible Gateway passage: Deuteronomy 6:6-7 - New International Reader's Version

The commandments I give you today must be in your hearts. Make sure your children learn them. Talk about them when you are at home. Talk about them when you walk along the road. Speak about them when you go to bed. And speak about them when you get up.

www.biblegateway.com

 

[SabbathBlessings]

the SDA church wrote a doctrine on how James 2:10-12 is supposed to be interpreted.

I’m sure every church has their own doctrine, which is why it’s called denomination and what separates denominations is doctrine. That said, one does not need to read any commentary on James and it spells is out pretty clearly. James is not contrasting every law in scripture he very specifically is contrasting the Ten Commandments and comparing breaking one of the commandments is like breaking them all. This is an easy one….

James 2:10 For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all. 11 For He who said, “Do not commit adultery,” also said, “Do not murder.” Now if you do not commit adultery, but you do murder, you have become a transgressor of the law. 12 So speak and so do as those who will be judged by the law of liberty.

James did not say if you are not circumcised, or not keeping the annual feast days and compares that to one of the Ten Commandments- He is contrasting the Ten Commandments and says if we break one we become the transgressor of the law, the Ten Commandments. He literally spelled it out. Also said its what we will be judged by, the law of liberty and if we keep the commandments we are free from the bondage of sin, which is breaking God’s law 1 John 3:4 and Paul points to the Ten to define sin. Romans 7:7 which is why the Ten Commandments are under Christs’ mercy seat in the Most Holy of His Temple, the commandments He personally wrote and placed in our hearts and minds, which we are grafted in through faith. Gal 3:26

That doctrine being James was saying only the ten commandments are the whole law, even though James starts out quoting Leviticus in verse 8.

It’s the whole law - the Ten James is quoting from. The Ten Commandments stand on a different foundation and sadly so many people have been deceived to think we do not need to keep God’s commandments. Paul say it’s what matters 1 Cor 7:19

8 If you really keep the royal law found in Scripture, “Love your neighbor as yourself,” [ Leviticus 19:18 ] you are doing right. 9 But if you show favoritism, you sin and are convicted by the law as lawbreakers.

Yes, the Royal Law or the Ten Commandments summed up is how to God and loving neighbor and is shown by keeping the Ten Commandments. The first 4 commandments deal with our relationship with God, the last 6 deal with our relationship with each other. Keeping the commandments of God is love to God and neighbor 1 John 3:4-5

But SDA doctrine changed that to the whole law only meaning the ten commandments. Even though SDA doctrine adds in part of Leviticus 11, but apparently has nothing to say about the rest of the entire law written in the Torah. Which results in only partial law keeping.

No, the SDA church did not write James. We have to trust the scripture.

 

[ozso]

Yes, I agree it's a good strategy to avoid the question. But... Why come on a discussion forum and attempt to avoid questions? I suppose the obvious answer is because one is basically here to proselytize.

That popped into my head before I finished reading the end of your post. As far as that goes, for me personally it's extremely unconvincing.

 

[Leaf473]

Another comment,

I'm not aware of any passage that says Keep just the 10, and God will give you the Holy Spirit. Wouldn't we also keep at least the first and second greatest Commandments? While those can be shown to be related to the 10, they also go way beyond it. Jesus shows that in the parable of the Good Samaritan

Bible Gateway passage: Luke 10:29-30 - New International Reader's Version

But the man wanted to make himself look good. So he asked Jesus, “And who is my neighbor?” Jesus replied, “A man was going down from Jerusalem to Jericho. Robbers attacked him. They stripped off his clothes and beat him. Then they went away, leaving him almost dead.

www.biblegateway.com

 

[ozso]

Another comment,

I'm not aware of any passage that says Keep just the 10, and God will give you the Holy Spirit. Wouldn't we also keep at least the first and second greatest Commandments? While those can be shown to be related to the 10, they also go way beyond it. Jesus shows that in the parable of the Good Samaritan

When stripped down to its core, it's really about the sin of going to church on Sunday instead of Saturday and calling Sunday the Sabbath instead of Saturday. With don't eat pork added in.

 

[ozso]

I’m sure every church has their own doctrine, which is why it’s called denomination and what separates denominations is doctrine. That said, one does not need to read any commentary on James and it spells is out pretty clearly. James is not contrasting every law in scripture he very specifically is contrasting the Ten Commandments and comparing breaking one of the commandments is like breaking them all. This is an easy one….

James 2:10 For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all. 11 For He who said, “Do not commit adultery,” also said, “Do not murder.” Now if you do not commit adultery, but you do murder, you have become a transgressor of the law. 12 So speak and so do as those who will be judged by the law of liberty.

James did not say if you are not circumcised, or not keeping the annual feast days and compares that to one of the Ten Commandments- He is contrasting the Ten Commandments and says if we break one we become the transgressor of the law, the Ten Commandments. He literally spelled it out. Also said its what we will be judged by, the law of liberty and if we keep the commandments we are free from the bondage of sin, which is breaking God’s law 1 John 3:4 and Paul points to the Ten to define sin. Romans 7:7 which is why the Ten Commandments are under Christs’ mercy seat in the Most Holy of His Temple, the commandments He personally wrote and placed in our hearts and minds, which we are grafted in through faith. Gal 3:26

It’s the whole law - the Ten James is quoting from. The Ten Commandments stand on a different foundation and sadly so many people have been deceived to think we do not need to keep God’s commandments. Paul say it’s what matters 1 Cor 7:19

Yes, the Royal Law or the Ten Commandments summed up is how to God and loving neighbor and is shown by keeping the Ten Commandments. The first 4 commandments deal with our relationship with God, the last 6 deal with our relationship with each other. Keeping the commandments of God is love to God and neighbor 1 John 3:4-5

No, the SDA church did not write James. We have to trust the scripture.

SDA doctrine determines how James is to be understood. And that's where the trust is placed.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

SDA doctrine determines how James is to be understood. And that's where the trust is placed.

No James determines how it is to be understood, you seem to be disagreeing with James...it truly cannot be any clearer the law he is referring to, the Ten Commandments- he is only contrasting from the Ten Commandments, and you would have to insert a different law that is not there to make your argument work.

James 2:10 For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all. 11 For He who said, “Do not commit adultery,” also said, “Do not murder.” Now if you do not commit adultery, but you do murder, you have become a transgressor of the law. 12 So speak and so do as those who will be judged by the law of liberty.

The law being referred to here is the Ten Commandments and NO MORE was added Deuteronomy 5:22