Sabbath and Sunday in early Christian Theology (under construction)

[SabbathBlessings]

Here is scripture on the Sabbath in the Word of God in the NT. Not one mention the seventh day Sabbath commanded Exodus 20:10 was abrogated or transferred to the first day. Should we follow man or follow God’s Word and the example of Jesus and His followers 1 John 2:6.


At that time Jesus went on the sabbath day through the corn; and his disciples were an hungred, and began to pluck the ears of corn, and to eat.
- Matthew 12:1

But when the Pharisees saw it, they said unto him, Behold, thy disciples do that which is not lawful to do upon the sabbath day.
- Matthew 12:2

Or have ye not read in the law, how that on the sabbath days the priests in the temple profane the sabbath, and are blameless?
- Matthew 12:5

For the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day.
- Matthew 12:8

And, behold, there was a man which had his hand withered. And they asked him, saying, Is it lawful to heal on the sabbath days? that they might accuse him.
- Matthew 12:10

And he said unto them, What man shall there be among you, that shall have one sheep, and if it fall into a pit on the sabbath day, will he not lay hold on it, and lift it out?
- Matthew 12:11

How much then is a man better than a sheep? Wherefore it is lawful to do well on the sabbath days.
- Matthew 12:12

But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
- Matthew 24:20

In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre.
- Matthew 28:1

And they went into Capernaum; and straightway on the sabbath day he entered into the synagogue, and taught.
- Mark 1:21

And it came to pass, that he went through the corn fields on the sabbath day; and his disciples began, as they went, to pluck the ears of corn.
- Mark 2:23

And the Pharisees said unto him, Behold, why do they on the sabbath day that which is not lawful?
- Mark 2:24

And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath:
- Mark 2:27

Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath.
- Mark 2:28

And they watched him, whether he would heal him on the sabbath day; that they might accuse him.
- Mark 3:2

And he saith unto them, Is it lawful to do good on the sabbath days, or to do evil? to save life, or to kill? But they held their peace.
- Mark 3:4

And when the sabbath day was come, he began to teach in the synagogue: and many hearing him were astonished, saying, From whence hath this man these things? and what wisdom is this which is given unto him, that even such mighty works are wrought by his hands?
- Mark 6:2

And now when the even was come, because it was the preparation, that is, the day before the sabbath,
- Mark 15:42

And when the sabbath was past, Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James, and Salome, had bought sweet spices, that they might come and anoint him.
- Mark 16:1

And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to read.
- Luke 4:16

And came down to Capernaum, a city of Galilee, and taught them on the sabbath days.
- Luke 4:31

And it came to pass on the second sabbath after the first, that he went through the corn fields; and his disciples plucked the ears of corn, and did eat, rubbing them in their hands.
- Luke 6:1

And certain of the Pharisees said unto them, Why do ye that which is not lawful to do on the sabbathdays?
- Luke 6:2

And he said unto them, That the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath.
- Luke 6:5

And it came to pass also on another sabbath, that he entered into the synagogue and taught: and there was a man whose right hand was withered.
- Luke 6:6

And the scribes and Pharisees watched him, whether he would heal on the sabbath day; that they might find an accusation against him.
- Luke 6:7

Then said Jesus unto them, I will ask you one thing; Is it lawful on the sabbath days to do good, or to do evil? to save life, or to destroy it?
- Luke 6:9

And he was teaching in one of the synagogues on the sabbath.
- Luke 13:10

And the ruler of the synagogue answered with indignation, because that Jesus had healed on the sabbath day, and said unto the people, There are six days in which men ought to work: in them therefore come and be healed, and not on the sabbath day.
- Luke 13:14

The Lord then answered him, and said, Thou hypocrite, doth not each one of you on the sabbath loose his ox or his ass from the stall, and lead him away to watering?
- Luke 13:15

And ought not this woman, being a daughter of Abraham, whom Satan hath bound, lo, these eighteen years, be loosed from this bond on the sabbath day?
- Luke 13:16

And it came to pass, as he went into the house of one of the chief Pharisees to eat bread on the sabbath day, that they watched him.
- Luke 14:1

And Jesus answering spake unto the lawyers and Pharisees, saying, Is it lawful to heal on the sabbathday?
- Luke 14:3

And answered them, saying, Which of you shall have an ass or an ox fallen into a pit, and will not straightway pull him out on the sabbath day?
- Luke 14:5

And that day was the preparation, and the sabbath drew on.
- Luke 23:54

And they returned, and prepared spices and ointments; and rested the sabbath day according to the commandment.
- Luke 23:56

And immediately the man was made whole, and took up his bed, and walked: and on the same day was the sabbath.
- John 5:9

The Jews therefore said unto him that was cured, It is the sabbath day: it is not lawful for thee to carry thy bed.
- John 5:10

And therefore did the Jews persecute Jesus, and sought to slay him, because he had done these things on the sabbath day.
- John 5:16

Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.
- John 5:18

Moses therefore gave unto you circumcision; (not because it is of Moses, but of the fathers and ye on the sabbath day circumcise a man.
- John 7:22

If a man on the sabbath day receive circumcision, that the law of Moses should not be broken; are ye angry at me, because I have made a man every whit whole on the sabbath day?
- John 7:23

And it was the sabbath day when Jesus made the clay, and opened his eyes.
- John 9:14

Therefore said some of the Pharisees, This man is not of God, because he keepeth not the sabbathday. Others said, How can a man that is a sinner do such miracles? And there was a division among them.
- John 9:16

The Jews therefore, because it was the preparation, that the bodies should not remain upon the cross on the sabbath day, (for that sabbath day was an high day,) besought Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away.
- John 19:31

Then returned they unto Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet, which is from Jerusalem a sabbathday's journey.
- Acts 1:12

But when they departed from Perga, they came to Antioch in Pisidia, and went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and sat down.
- Acts 13:14

For they that dwell at Jerusalem, and their rulers, because they knew him not, nor yet the voices of the prophets which are read every sabbath day, they have fulfilled them in condemning him.
- Acts 13:27

And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath.
- Acts 13:42

And the next sabbath day came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God.
- Acts 13:44

For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.
- Acts 15:21

And on the sabbath we went out of the city by a river side, where prayer was wont to be made; and we sat down, and spake unto the women which resorted thither.
- Acts 16:13

And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures,
- Acts 17:2

And he reasoned in the synagogue every sabbath, and persuaded the Jews and the Greeks.
- Acts 18:4

 

[SabbathBlessings]

The first day in the NT….


Many people have pointed to some instances in the New Testament in which “the first day of the week,” Sunday, is mentioned as a reason for worshiping—keeping the Sabbath—on Sunday. But do any one of these eight passages really show or even infer that the Sabbath was changed to Sunday?

To answer these questions, let’s look at each one of these Scripture passages in question.

1. “Now on the first day of the week, very early in the morning, they, and certain other women with them, came to the tomb bringing the spices which they had prepared. But they found the stone rolled away from the tomb” (Luke 24:1, 2).

This story relates the story of Jesus’ followers going to His tomb to finish the sad work of anointing His body for burial. With the Sabbath closing in on them the day before, these women hadn’t had time on Friday to anoint the Lord immediately after His death. Earlier verses confirm that “they rested on the Sabbath according to the commandment” (Luke 23:56). Even in their grief, they honored Jesus by keeping all His commandments, including the Sabbath.

There are four more passages that refer to the resurrection of Jesus and are similar in nature to the verses above. They are …

2. Matthew 28:1
3. Mark 16:1–3
4. Mark 16:9
5. John 20:1

These verse confirm that Jesus rested in the grave on Saturday and appeared to His disciples in the morning on the first day of week. (See: Should we worship on Sunday to honor the resurrection.)

Now let’s look at the remaining three passages:

6. “Then, the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled, for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood in the midst, and said to them, ‘Peace be with you’ ”(John 20:19).

Some claim the disciples met for Sunday worship, but if you examine the verse carefully, you’ll notice the words “for fear of the Jews”—that is the key phrase in fully understanding this passage. This was no Sunday worship fellowship. The disciples were afraid and were hiding from the Jews! Nothing in the verse hints at the first day being holy.

7. “Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I have given orders to the churches of Galatia, so you must do also: On the first day of the week let each one of you lay something aside, storing up as he may prosper, that there be no collections when I come” (1 Corinthians 16:1, 2).

Here, Paul is suggesting that believers set aside a gift for the needy brethren. There’s no meeting inferred here. He’s simply asking them to store up a donation at home to be turned in at a later date.

8. “Now on the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul, ready to depart the next day, spoke to them and continued his message until midnight” (Acts 20:7).

Biblically, days begin at sundown, so this turns out to be the dark part of Sunday—what we would call Saturday night. At daybreak, when it is still Sunday, Paul sets off on a long hike to catch a ride on a ship (verse 13). If Sunday were the Lord’s Day, he wouldn’t have been starting on a journey.

And that’s it …

These are the only references to Sunday in the New Testament. None of these passages refer to the first day of the week as the Lord’s Day, and none of the verses in any way imply that the Sabbath was changed to Sunday.

Sunday in the Bible | Sabbath Truth

A synopsis of the 8 references to Sunday in the New Testament. Is Sunday truly the new Sabbath according to scripture?

www.sabbathtruth.com

​

The Seventh Day with Hal Holbrook | Sabbath Truth

 

[trophy33]

Not one mention the seventh day Sabbath commanded Exodus 20:10 was abrogated

Is Sabbath a part of the law?


"So, my brothers, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, that you might belong to another"
R 7:4

"But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way
of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code."
R 7:6

"For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John."
Mt 11:13

"Before the coming of this faith, we were held in custody under the law...
So the law was our guardian until Christ came...
Now that this faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian."
Gal 3:23-25

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Is Sabbath a part of the Law?


"So, my brothers, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, that you might belong to another"
R 7:4

"But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way
of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code."
R 7:6

"For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John."
Mt 11:13

"Before the coming of this faith, we were held in custody under the law...
So the law was our guardian until Christ came...
Now that this faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian."
Gal 3:23-25

These verses have been explained many times and Paul does not teach lawlessness and goes against his own teachings 1 Cor 7:19,Romans 3:31, Romans 7:7, Romans 3:20 or Jesus and God. There is a warning in scripture many misinterpret Paul to their own destruction 2 Peter 3:16

These are the final and parallel events when Jesus comes……..He disagrees with your understanding about God’s law…

Matthew 7:21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

Revelation 22:14 Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city. 15 But outside are dogs and sorcerers and sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and whoever loves and practices a lie.

1 John 2:3 Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. 4 He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5 But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God s perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him. 6 He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk just as He walked.

Did Jesus keep the commandments including the Sabbath? Yes. Follow the Lamb, but we each have free will

 

[trophy33]

Did Jesus keep the commandments including the Sabbath? Yes. Follow the lamb, but we each have free will

You seem to be unable to put "the law was till Christ" and "Christ kept the law" together.

Its really quite simple, when you are not biased (when you do not try to force Ellen White's "visions" into the Bible).

 

[SabbathBlessings]

You seem to be unable to put "the law was till Christ" and "Christ kept the law" together.

Its really quite simple, when you are not biased (when you do not try to force Ellen White's "visions" into the Bible).

You seem to misunderstand the final events when Jesus comes and what He said would happen. I believe Jesus. Faith does not void the law, it establishes it. Romans 3:31. Without faith it is impossible to please God. Hebrews 11:6. Scripture shows the fruit of a saved person Revelation 14:12 faith in Jesus and keeping God’s commandments.

 

[trophy33]

You seem to misunderstand the final events when Jesus comes and what He said would happen. I believe Jesus.

You believe your misunderstanding of Jesus.

You use so many bad arguments and so many out of context verses that it should really warn you that something is fishy with your theology.

 

[trophy33]

Faith does not void the law, it establishes it. Romans 3:31.

Another bad argument, based in your misunderstanding what the sentence means in its context.

"We uphold the law" does not mean we obey its commands, it means we confirm its prophecy about faith (Romans 3:21) and its purpose - to show that people are sinful.

 

[FenderTL5]

Should we follow man or follow God’s Word and the example of Jesus and His followers..

..the Sabbath was changed to Sunday?

I tuncated for brevity.
This thread is about the ancient Church and the teaching(s)/Theology of the ancient church concerning the sabbath and the Lord's Day.
It is about this Church that began with Christ and His Apostles.
It is this Church that the New Testament calls the ground and pillar of truth. It is this Church that has Christ as the head and the members working as His body on earth.
Within this Church the New Testament was written, by members of this Church under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, to this Church, and for this Church. This Church has a continuous history, documented in the New Testament and beyond/afterwards.
In this thread we are trying to discuss those teachings. This is a topic you apparently have no interest in since you disrespectfully insist on changing the subject to address your evangelical/Judiasm point of view, looking from 2000 years afterwards back through time. There are numerous threads in this section of the forum taking that point of view. In fact, I'd be willing to wager that your last few posts were cut/paste out of those existing and ongoing discussions.
I would love for this thread to stay on topic. In order to stay on topic it will be imperative to explore post-canon material, because that's the topic.

Now addressing the two questions quoted:
We should follow the teachings of the Apostles through the Church they established. Interpreting Scripture on our own is discouraged in the New Testament (note: I did not say reading nor studying). This is the model of the Church. This is the ongoing, continuous history of the Church.

The sabbath was never "changed" to Sunday. The Sabbath is the Sabbath and Sunday is the Lord's Day. The Churches that have their roots in the ancient teaching honor both days. The sabbath is kept and the fasts are relaxed on both days the same.
The Liturgy, which is a celebration of the Resurrection of Christ, is held on Sunday because that is the day of His Ressurection.

 

[Pavel Mosko]

I also was going to quote some Ignatius of Antioch I took this long quote from a random Catholic web site and was going to quote it later.


Ignatius of Antioch quotes

The Epistle Of Ignatius To The Magnesians
CHAP, VIII. — CAUTION AGAINST FALSE DOCTRINES.

Be not deceived with strange doctrines, nor with old fables, which are unprofitable. For if we still live according to the Jewish law, we acknowledge that we have not received grace. For the divinest prophets lived according to Christ Jesus. On this account also they were persecuted, being inspired by His grace to fully convince the unbelieving that there is one God, who has manifested Himself by Jesus Christ His Son, who is His eternal Word, not proceeding forth from silence,[5] and who in all things pleased Him that sent Him.

Be not deceived with strange doctrines, "nor give heed to fables and endless genealogies,"[3] and things in which the Jews make their boast. "Old things are passed away: behold, all things have become new."[4] For if we still live according to the Jewish law, and the circumcision of the flesh, we deny that we have received grace. For the divinest prophets lived according to Jesus Christ. On this account also they were persecuted, being inspired by grace to fully convince the unbelieving that there is one God, the Almighty, who has manifested Himself by Jesus Christ His Son, who is His Word, not spoken, but essential. For He is not the voice of an articulate utterance, but a substance begotten by divine power, who has in all things pleased Him that sent Him.[6]


CHAP. IX. — LET US LIVE WITH CHRIST.

If, therefore, those who were brought up in the ancient order of things[7] have come to the possession of a new[8] hope, no longer observing the Sabbath, but living in the observance[10] of the Lord's Day, on which also our life has sprung up again by Him and by His death — whom some deny, by which mystery we have obtained faith,[12] and therefore endure, that we may be found the disciples of Jesus Christ, our only Master — how shall we be able to live apart from Him, whose disciples the prophets themselves in the Spirit did wait for Him as their Teacher? And therefore He whom they rightly waited for, being come, raised them from the dead.[16]

If, then, those who were conversant with the ancient Scriptures came to newness of hope, expecting the coming of Christ, as the Lord teaches us when He says, "If ye had believed Moses, ye would have believed Me, for he wrote of Me;"[9] and again, "Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it, and was glad; for before Abraham was, I am; "[11] how shall we be able to live without Him? The prophets were His servants, and foresaw Him by the Spirit, and waited for Him as their Teacher, and expected Him as their Lord and Saviour, saying, "He will come and save us."[13] Let us therefore no longer keep the Sabbath after the Jewish manner, and rejoice in days of idleness; for "he that does not work, let him not eat."[14] For say the[holy] oracles, "In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat thy bread."[15] But let every one of you keep the Sabbath after a spiritual manner, rejoicing in meditation on the law, not in relaxation of the body, admiring the workmanship of God, and not eating things prepared the day before, nor using lukewarm drinks, and walking within a prescribed space, nor finding delight in dancing and plaudits which have no sense in them.[1] And after the observance of the Sabbath, let every friend of Christ keep the Lord's Day as a festival, the resurrection-day, the queen and chief of all the days[of the week]. Looking forward to this, the prophet declared, "To the end, for the eighth day,"[2] on which our life both sprang up again, and the victory over death was obtained in Christ, whom the children of perdition, the enemies of the Saviour, deny, "whose god is their belly, who mind earthly things,"[3] who are "lovers of pleasure, and not lovers of God, having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof."[4] These make merchandise of Christ, corrupting His word, and giving up Jesus to sale: they are corrupters of women, and covetous of other men's possessions, swallowing up wealth[5] insatiably; from whom may ye be delivered by the mercy of God through our Lord Jesus Christ!




CHAP. X. — BEWARE OF JUDAIZING.

Let us not, therefore, be insensible to His kindness. For were He to reward us according to our works, we should cease to be. Therefore, having become His disciples, let us learn to live according to the principles of Christianity.[7] For whosoever is called by any other name besides this, is not of God. Lay aside, therefore, the evil, the old, the sour leaven, and be ye changed into the new leaven, which is Jesus Christ. Be ye salted in Him, lest any one among you should be corrupted, since by your savour ye shall be convicted. It is absurd to profess[12] Christ Jesus, and to Judaize. For Christianity did not embrace[13] Judaism, but Judaism Christianity, that so every tongue which believeth might be gathered together to God.

Let us not, therefore, be insensible to His kindness. For were He to reward us according to our works, we should cease to be. For "if Thou, Lord, shalt mark iniquities, O Lord, who shall stand?"[6] Let us therefore prove ourselves worthy of that name which we have received. For whosoever is called by any other name besides this, he is not of God; for he has not received the prophecy which speaks thus concerning us: "The people shall be called by a new name, which the Lord shall name them, and shall be a holy people."[8] This was first fulfilled in Syria; for "the disciples were called Christians at Antioch,"[9] when Paul and Peter were laying the foundations of the Church. Lay aside, therefore, the evil, the old, the corrupt leaven,[10] and be ye changed into the new leaven of grace. Abide in Christ, that the stranger[11] may not have dominion over you. It is absurd to speak of Jesus Christ with the tongue, and to cherish in the mind a Judaism which has now come to an end. For where there is Christianity there cannot be Judaism. For Christ is one, in whom every nation that believes, and every tongue that confesses, is gathered unto God. And those that were of a stony heart have become the children of Abraham, the friend of God;[14] and in his seed all those have been blessed[15] who were ordained to eternal life[16] in Christ.

 

[Pavel Mosko]

@SabbathBlessings by the way I suspect your gaslighting in that previous statement because what showed even with my Church fathers quotes contradicts much of the SDA teaching that they stole from the Seventh Day Baptists and made their own unique revelation. And the bad news for you is the pope / Constantine Canard was disproven going back 4 Centuries ago, long before SDA appeared on the scene and began to recycle and claim the message for their own denominational trademark.

 

[Pavel Mosko]

I didn't know about the benediction. Thank you.
By reading through the book of Acts it's easy to see that trajectory taking place. As the Church grew and expanded to the Gentiles, it was simultaneosly being pushed out of the synagog(s). By the end, there's Sunday services taking place in houses.
I don't know when the seperation was complete, but it happened before the end of the first century as shown in the Didache and the other writings. So less than 30 years. John would still be alive.

Of course the Ebionites were another big factor too as far as the separation between Jewish believers and mainstream Christians.


"The Ebionites believed Jesus became the Messiah because he obeyed the Jewish Law. They themselves faithfully followed the Law, although they removed what they regarded as interpolations in order to uphold their teachings, which included vegetarianism, holy poverty, ritual ablutions, and the rejection of animal sacrifices. The Ebionites also held Jerusalem in great veneration."

Ebionite | Jewish Christianity, Early Christianity, Sect

Ebionite, member of an early ascetic sect of Jewish Christians. The Ebionites were one of several such sects that originated in and around Palestine in the first centuries ad and included the Nazarenes and Elkasites. The name of the sect is from the Hebrew ebyonim, or ebionim (“the poor”); it was

www.britannica.com

I think the Ebionites were a big factor in the later rise of Islam since groups like that and other heretics were in Arabia and Mohammed's Father in law to his original wife was either that or a Syriac Christian who went native so to speak, as in being his first enthusiastic supporter. The Ebionites were Bedouins living in Israel in the aftermath of the Jewish wars and believed that Jesus was Messiah and prophet, but did not believe in his divinity or his virgin birth. But their conception of him, is very similar to the Islamic Jesus, a prophet of God but not divine himself.



I also like to cite the Anti-gentile passages in the Talmud, there are a good number of them. This is more because I'm used to talking to Messianic Jews who want to make Antisemitism the big driving force behind everything in the Early Church and they tend to sweep under the rug all the heresy and persecution that was a big motivating factor behind the early Christians becoming their own thing separate from Judaism.

Overview: Attitudes Toward Non-Jews | My Jewish Learning

What have Jews thought about non-Jews at various points in history?

www.myjewishlearning.com

 

[Pavel Mosko]

This guy is really important to discussions of early Christianity on the general topic. Messianic Jews like to cite him as a witness for their thing even though if you look at his actual testimony, preserved in a few fragments quoted by early church historians he considers himself a Catholic and sees the pope of his day as his spiritual leader.​

​

HEGESIPPUS:​

By: Richard Gottheil​

• 1. One of the earliest writers of the Christian Church; lived at Rome, whither he had gone about 150 from Palestine or Syria, by way of Corinth; died about 189. According to Eusebius, he was by birth a Jew; and though this is only an induction on the part of Eusebius, it may be accepted as true. He wrote, in five books, a work entitled ϓπομνήματα Πέντε, or Πέντε Συγγράμματα, a historical apology for Christianity, in which he attempts to prove the truth and continuity of Christian doctrine in the apostolic churches and also the succession of bishops. It was indirectly aimed against Gnosticism and heresies in general. Of Jewish heretical sects he mentions seven (Eusebius, "Hist. Eccl." iv. §, 21): Essenes, Galileans, Hemerobaptists, Masbotheans, Samaritans, Sadducees, and Pharisees. He cites the apocryphal gospels of the Hebrews and of the Syrians, Jewish traditions, and Judæo-Christian literary productions. He is thus an important authority for Jewish heresies and for the earliest history of the Christian Church.

HEGESIPPUS - JewishEncyclopedia.com

Complete contents the 1906 Jewish Encyclopedia.

www.jewishencyclopedia.com

 

[FenderTL5]

I think the Ebionites were a big factor in the later rise of Islam since groups like that and other heretics were in Arabia and Mohammed's Father in law to his original wife was either that or a Syriac Christian who went native so to speak, as in being his first enthusiastic supporter..

I'm not convinced, nor making a favorable argument.. but there is thought that the origin of the Quran is a Syriac Christian Lectionary that had translation errors.
I'll readily admit I don't know enough about it to make the argument one way or the other but I do find the theory interesting.
It would fit in the larger puzzle.

 

[Pavel Mosko]

I think there are reasons why we keep going over the same things. Would you like to talk about those reasons?

Leaf you would have made a great therapist. Many ages ago, when I was a young man, I went to school for such things... aka Counselor in mental health, You got the Person-Centered Therapy and basic Microskills down! If you keep working it, you may yet achieve some kind of therapeutic breakthrough. (both a joke and a statement of fact reflecting back on Systems of Psychotherapy course circa 1990).

 

[SabbathBlessings]

I tuncated for brevity.
This thread is about the ancient Church and the teaching(s)/Theology of the ancient church concerning the sabbath and the Lord's Day.
It is about this Church that began with Christ and His Apostles.

Thats what I have been talking about and the scripture provided supports that. However, there is no the Sabbath and the Lords Day as if they are separated, God only identified one day He esteemed above all others and that is the Seventh Day Sabbath, the day the. Lord says is My holy day. Exodus 20:10 Isaiah 58:13 which Jesus is Lord of Mark 2:28

It is this Church that the New Testament calls the ground and pillar of truth. It is this Church that has Christ as the head and the members working as His body on earth.

Agreed

Within this Church the New Testament was written, by members of this Church under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, to this Church, and for this Church. This Church has a continuous history, documented in the New Testament and beyond/afterwards.

The Church Christ created and the apostles followed has not changed, but as scripture shows, it is just a remnant who follow this original church Revelation 12:17 KJV

In this thread we are trying to discuss those teachings. This is a topic you apparently have no interest in since you disrespectfully insist on changing the subject to address your evangelical/Judiasm point of view, looking from 2000 years afterwards back through time. There are numerous threads in this section of the forum taking that point of view. In fact, I'd be willing to wager that your last few posts were cut/paste out of those existing and ongoing discussions.
I would love for this thread to stay on topic. In order to stay on topic it will be imperative to explore post-canon material, because that's the topic.

I would have to respectfully disagree. There is error that entered into the church that scripture said would happen after the death of the disciples. We are told we need to come out of Babylon, and unlearn the false teachings that have been handed down to us where commandments have been replaced by traditions, exactly what Jesus warns about Matthew 15:3-9

Now addressing the two questions quoted:
We should follow the teachings of the Apostles through the Church they established. Interpreting Scripture on our own is discouraged in the New Testament (note: I did not say reading nor studying). This is the model of the Church. This is the ongoing, continuous history of the Church.

This is a dangerous teaching and one not taught in scripture. We are not going to be judged based on what our church taught us, we each have to stand before Jesus on judgement day based on what we do .2 Cor 5:10 so if one is following the church that has false teachings, they will be deceived just like we are told the devil deceives the whole world, so I would never want to place my salvation on what someone else teaches me, I would want to base it on what does the Bible say. The Word is the light to our path Psalms 119:105 There is a promise the Holy Spirit will teach us all things and will remind us of everything God says, John 14:26. If you do a study on the Holy Spirit it will tell you have to receive it and it includes being obedient to God Acts 5:32 John 14:15-18, not to man.

The sabbath was never "changed" to Sunday. The Sabbath is the Sabbath

If you truly believed that then we wouldn’t be having this discussion. The Sabbath commandment has and will never change. It is part of God’s eternal law that He personally wrote and personally spoke and no man can change or edit. Deut 4:2 Proverbs 30:5-6

If you believed the Sabbath commandment never changed than you would know the Lords Day is not on day one because God said all other days are working days Exodus 20:9 except for the seventh day Sabbath Exodus 20:8-11 the only day God made holy, blessed and sanctified for holy use. Genesis 2:1-3, Exodus 20:8-11. The Lord’s Day is not on a day God deemed for us to do work and labor in lieu of the day that is holy and blessed.

and Sunday is the Lord's Day.

Could you please provide one scripture that says the first day is the Lords Day or that the first day is God’s holy day? God clearly identified His holy day and that is the seventh day Sabbath Isaiah 58:13 Exodus 20:10

The Churches that have their roots in the ancient teaching honor both days.

Not from scripture, but in the third century they made the Sabbath a fast day and Sunday a day of joy, not following how the Sabbath should be observed. From Sabbath to Sunday Millions of Christians were being persecuted by Rome during this time and later Constantine changed the corporate day of worship from Sabbath to Sunday based on sun worship. God has always had a people through the centuries that have kept the Bible Sabbath and is calling us to go back to the teachings of scripture.

The Liturgy, which is a celebration of the Resurrection of Christ, is held on Sunday because that is the day of His Ressurection.

Where is the scripture that Jesus said when I rise on the first day, this is the new day of worship and we no longer need to keep the Sabbath commandment. Seems like that would be an important scripture to make a whole theology over and disregard one of God’s sacred commandments. The New Heaven/New Earth Sabbath worship continues Isaiah 66:22-23, nothing about gathering on day 1

 

[ralliann]

Leaf you would have made a great therapist. Many ages ago, when I was a young man, I went to school for such things... aka Counselor in mental health, You got the Person-Centered Therapy and basic Microskills down! If you keep working it, you may yet achieve some kind of therapeutic breakthrough. (both a joke and a statement of fact reflecting back on Systems of Psychotherapy course circa 1990).

Good observation. A worthwhile attempt.

 

[Pavel Mosko]

You believe your misunderstanding of Jesus.

You use so many bad arguments and so many out of context verses that it should really warn you that something is fishy with your theology.

In some of the videos I watch put out from former Adventists I learned a new term called "Bible Hopscotch" that refers to the way Adventists often jump around the Bible to make their case. Sometimes even clipping some verses, because the following passages might negate their special doctrinal position. Anyway, I'm filing that one away for future referencing. I will say I have seen this sort of thing a lot before with many groups that like to throw out proof texts in a sound bite like way.

 

[Pavel Mosko]

I'm not convinced, nor making a favorable argument.. but there is thought that the origin of the Quran is a Syriac Christian Lectionary that had translation errors.

I am both intrigued and in disbelief. I would greatly like to see the case made on that. But all the evidence I've seen is a Koran is a kind of syncretistic work a little how Manicheanism seemed to combine Eastern Mystery religion with Zoroastrianism, and Buddhism, and Christianity, Mohammed kind of did the same with Judaism, Christianity especially Syriac, Gnostic Docetism and Mandeanism, and most likely Ebionitism, besides retaining the old Arabic paganism (that was basically the last remaining vestige of the cult of Baal and Astarte), and to that add a nice dose of demonic revelation, frappe in a blender and serve ice cold.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

In some of the videos I watch put out from former Adventists I learned a new term called "Bible Hopscotch" that refers to the way Adventists often jump around the Bible to make their case. Sometimes even clipping some verses, because the following passages might negate their special doctrinal position. Anyway, I'm filing that one away for future referencing. I will say I have seen this sort of thing a lot before with many groups that like to throw out proof texts in a sound bite like way.

There will always be scoffers and was so in the time of Jesus who crucified Him- I can’t help but wonder how many professed Christians today would be on the side of Jesus when most in His day didn’t believe Him. Most laughed at Noah too and the disciples and prophets so nothing new here.

Nothing out of context on the Sabbath commandment Exodus 20:8-11 that God said in the Ten He shows mercy for those who love Him and keep His commandments. Exodus 20:6 Nothing about the 50+ full verses on the Sabbath in the NT that is out of context or edited and showing Jesus and the disciples keeping every Sabbath who is our example to follow 1 John 2:6 or that the Sabbath commandment was abrogated. Nothing out of context about the 8 verses on the first day in the NT that do not identify where it is holy, blessed, sactified, a commandment or a new day of worship. You should consider when you point a finger at someone, you have three pointing back at yourself.

For those interested in how Sabbath was changed to Sunday…

From Sabbath to Sunday