Why the weekly Sabbath (Saturday) is the Lord's Day, in the Bible

[HIM]

The writer clearly tells us who the law is for, and it is certainly not the believer. Are actual believers murderers? Sexually immorral? Rebellious? I would certainly hope not.

So you don't sin. Good then you are correct the law is not for you because you are not sinning.

1Tim 1:9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,

In any event, I would concede that Paul appears to be saying that the Law is indeed still in force in the sense that it can exercize some control over non-believers. But we know from this text, if not others, that Paul considers the Law to be "retired" for those who have the Spirit, that is, believers:

But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the [h]Spirit and not in oldness of the letter.

What is your response to these words from Paul. Are you, like others, going to say that being "released from the Law" means "being released only from the consequences of the law, but still obliged to fully follow it"? I suggest that no one talks that way. And what about being told we "we no longer serve the letter of the law". Are you, like others seemingly, going to change this to "we are no longer condemned by the letter of the law"?

No, we are released from the law because we are now in Christ and are not to be living a life of sin because we are married to another and are one flesh and are no longer in bondage to sin. See Romans 6 and 8.

I agree that the 1 Timothy text does indeed say the law is indeed useful in controlling non-believers.

No mention of a non believer in those text

And what about what Paul goes on to say about the Law in Romans 7:

But sin, taking an opportunity through the commandment, produced in me [m]coveting of every kind; for apart [n]from the Law sin is dead. 9 I was once alive apart [o]from the Law; but when the commandment came, sin came to life, and I died; 10 and this commandment, which was [p]to result in life, proved [q]to result in death for me; 11 for sin, taking an opportunity through the commandment, deceived me, and through it, killed me

Yes, "sin" is the real bad guy here, but Paul clearly sees the law as being an enabler in bringing about, yes, death.

And still will unless we have crucifed the flesh and the affections thereof. For if we live after the flesh we shall die, but if we mortify the deeds of the body we shall live.

And what about this from 2 Cor 3:

who also made us adequate as servants of a new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.
7 But if the ministry of death, engraved in letters on stones, came [c]with glory

How can Paul be misunderstood here - the law brings death.

The ministry, being told what to do from tables of stone and parchment brings death because of the infirmity of the flesh.
The ministry of the Spirit, God putting His law in our minds and hearts through His Spirit brings life because we are buried and risen with him and the old man is no more. We have new heart and mind. We are a new creature in Christ . Old things have passed away and all things have become new and are of God. Now we do because we are and want to not because we have to.

 

[HIM]

In context, despite appearances from this one verse, it is really clear that the law is for Jews only. How do you explain this, if Paul believes that Gentiles are under the law?

For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from works [y]of the Law. 29 Or is God the God of Jews only? Is He not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also,

No one would add verse 29 if they believed that all people are under the Law.

Telling us what sin is and being the law is two entirely different things

 

[GDL]

The RCC puts it in a manner it is a must, a replacement of the Sabbath.

Some of the documentation that has been posted by others, including you as I recall, showing what the RCC positions are re: Saturday & Sunday have been interesting.

But where did you get the "must" for the rest? The vast majority of protestants do not see worshiping on Sunday as some commandment/must, it has simply been the most suitable day, traditionally.

Probably tradition as you say, but on steroids, with a lot of misunderstanding.

So, mostly from the mindset and attitudes of Christians I've been around or have known of or have read for decades. Many of whom will challenge someone who does not "go to church" on Sunday. "Where do you go to church" in my experience is one of the first questions I have been asked repeatedly by Christians I may meet for the first time, and this normally means 'where do you assemble on Sunday?' Some at many levels of understanding, including Pastors, have pushed Heb10:25 at me - as a mandate - and consider someone who does not follow their ways as sinful. And they will push the Sunday - Lord's Day - the Christian Sabbath concept, whether RC or Protestant. Since so much of the Christian world seems to go to church on Sunday, that tradition in my experience has become way more than tradition. I've also been here long enough to remember when the US was mostly shut down on Sundays.

Regarding eastern orthodox, I do not know.

Nor do I, but their input is of interest.

Honestly, after some time in the Faith studying, Sabbath ceased being a deep concern of mine, beyond a point. It's easy to read the 7th day reality about Sabbath & RCC ceased to be meaningful to me long ago - I'm not ruled by Rome nor by Protestant fathers or pastors or popular Christian opinion. Beyond a point of periodic necessity, I'm also not ruled by calendars that may not be based upon such things as God had Israel looking at. I'm also fairly well read in exegetical reasoning as to the Christian being free from observing the weekly Sabbath that in one sense was a sign of God's covenant with Israel Ex31; Ez20.

With that said, IMO if there's a day to observe it's God's cessation of His creation work as a day of rest and without all the fencing traditions that Jesus contended against. The Lord of the Sabbath is the Lord of the Sabbath. And I'm also very settled in faith that God is the Creator and Sustainer of His Creation, so I don't need a weekly reminder of this in Christ Jesus in Spirit - I don't get lost or distracted from this 6 days per week - the Creator of the universe resides in me and I in Him and I think we are still barely scratching the surface of what this means and provides. In a sense, it looks to me like Resurrection Day was another get-to-work day. I also don't sense any need to put a tree in my house or color eggs once/yr.

Of course, there's way more than this to look at and consider. The SDA vs. Rome debates bring out quite a bit of data of interest. SDA has quite a ministry against Rome in some ways. Arguments flying back at SDA can contain some interesting thoughts also. I simply and mostly study the Text and questions remain, especially about our freedom in Christ. Maybe this is my time to come to more of a conclusion. I try to let our Lord drive such things in me. He tends to teach me Scripture at His time. We'll see.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Some of the documentation that has been posted by others, including you as I recall, showing what the RCC positions are re: Saturday & Sunday have been interesting.

Probably tradition as you say, but on steroids, with a lot of misunderstanding.

So, mostly from the mindset and attitudes of Christians I've been around or have known of or have read for decades. Many of whom will challenge someone who does not "go to church" on Sunday. "Where do you go to church" in my experience is one of the first questions I have been asked repeatedly by Christians I may meet for the first time, and this normally means 'where do you assemble on Sunday?' Some at many levels of understanding, including Pastors, have pushed Heb10:25 at me - as a mandate - and consider someone who does not follow their ways as sinful. And they will push the Sunday - Lord's Day - the Christian Sabbath concept, whether RC or Protestant. Since so much of the Christian world seems to go to church on Sunday, that tradition in my experience has become way more than tradition. I've also been here long enough to remember when the US was mostly shut down on Sundays.

Nor do I, but their input is of interest.

Honestly, after some time in the Faith studying, Sabbath ceased being a deep concern of mine, beyond a point. It's easy to read the 7th day reality about Sabbath & RCC ceased to be meaningful to me long ago - I'm not ruled by Rome nor by Protestant fathers or pastors or popular Christian opinion. Beyond a point of periodic necessity, I'm also not ruled by calendars that may not be based upon such things as God had Israel looking at. I'm also fairly well read in exegetical reasoning as to the Christian being free from observing the weekly Sabbath that in one sense was a sign of God's covenant with Israel Ex31; Ez20.

With that said, IMO if there's a day to observe it's God's cessation of His creation work as a day of rest and without all the fencing traditions that Jesus contended against. The Lord of the Sabbath is the Lord of the Sabbath. And I'm also very settled in faith that God is the Creator and Sustainer of His Creation, so I don't need a weekly reminder of this in Christ Jesus in Spirit - I don't get lost or distracted from this 6 days per week - the Creator of the universe resides in me and I in Him and I think we are still barely scratching the surface of what this means and provides. In a sense, it looks to me like Resurrection Day was another get-to-work day. I also don't sense any need to put a tree in my house or color eggs once/yr.

Of course, there's way more than this to look at and consider. The SDA vs. Rome debates bring out quite a bit of data of interest. SDA has quite a ministry against Rome in some ways. Arguments flying back at SDA can contain some interesting thoughts also. I simply and mostly study the Text and questions remain, especially about our freedom in Christ. Maybe this is my time to come to more of a conclusion. I try to let our Lord drive such things in me. He tends to teach me Scripture at His time. We'll see.

Hi there,

You might be interested in this sermon. It is from an SDA pastor, although he was not raised SDA, was a former signed rapper from Jamaica before he became an Adventist preacher and I find some of his sermons very refreshing and educational as he sees things from a slightly different perfective. In this video he makes an interesting point about God's rest and what rest means, you and others might find interesting. Yes, it's about the Sabbath, but also a much bigger picture. Anyway, if you have time and want to check it out, let me know your thoughts.

 

[GDL]

Hi there,

You might be interested in this sermon. It is from an SDA pastor, although he was not raised SDA, was a former signed rapper from Jamaica before he became an Adventist preacher and I find some of his sermons very refreshing and educational as he sees things from a slightly different perfective. In this video he makes an interesting point about God's rest and what rest means, you and others might find interesting. Yes, it's about the Sabbath, but also a much bigger picture. Anyway, if you have time and want to check it out, let me know your thoughts.

Thank you. I don't normally watch such things anymore, but since it's from you - out of respect for you - I may. Can you narrow down the 1+ hrs for me at all?

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Thank you. I don't normally watch such things anymore, but since it's from you - out of respect for you - I may. Can you narrow down the 1+ hrs for me at all?

Thanks, I appreciate it. I think its a worthwhile video and hard to pinpoint to a certain section, since there are good points throughout the sermon, even my husband enjoyed it who is not a converted Adventists (we married when I was outside my faith). I can sum up the video if you prefer, but I think he does an excellent job of explaining God's rest which is what His kingdom is made of. The only thing I would have added, is heaven is not going to be sitting in front Jesus worshipping Him 24/7 (we will in our hearts and Sabbath worship continues Isaiah 66:22-23) but according to scripture we will be doing things - like gardening and building houses etc. and no one who makes it will be disappointed.

 

[GDL]

Thanks, I appreciate it. I think its a worthwhile video and hard to pinpoint to a certain section, since there are good points throughout the sermon, even my husband enjoyed it who is not a converted Adventists (we married when I was outside my faith). I can sum up the video if you prefer, but I think he does an excellent job of explaining God's rest which is what His kingdom is made of. The only thing I would have added, is heaven is not going to be sitting in front Jesus worshipping Him 24/7 (we will in our hearts and Sabbath worship continues Isaiah 66:22-23) but according to scripture we will be doing things - like gardening and building houses etc. and no one who makes it will be disappointed.

Thanks. I'm about 16 min in playing on fast speed to get the gist. I already have some questions but am letting him play out.

The "rest" is quite easy to see from the Garden that man is working in rest with God in His creation in a special place that God placed man into. Jesus said something similar in Matt11:29. I've no illusions that rest just means laying around. God is obviously a worker and enjoys it and is able to stand back and admire His work as good. We're in His image but this world is in toil and this flesh - this little house of earth - produces weeds just like the dirt it was made from.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Thanks. I'm about 16 min in playing on fast speed to get the gist. I already have some questions but am letting him play out.

The "rest" is quite easy to see from the Garden that man is working in rest with God in His creation in a special place that God placed man into. Jesus said something similar in Matt11:29. I've no illusions that rest just means laying around. God is obviously a worker and enjoys it and is able to stand back and admire His work as good. We're in His image but this world is in toil and this flesh - this little house of earth - produces weeds just like the dirt it was made from.

I appreciate your effort! If I had to guess, you are probably used to more of a technical/theological approach and we have plenty of SDA pastors like that, but considering his background, I think he does an excellent job of explaining rest in this sermon.

 

[GDL]

I appreciate your effort! If I had to guess, you are probably used to more of a technical/theological approach and we have plenty of SDA pastors like that, but considering his background, I think he does an excellent job of explaining rest in this sermon.

OK. Admittedly on 2x speed & looking at just a few of the verses he mentioned and listening re: the rest:

• I can see why you may find him refreshing.
• I'm concerned that he's spinning things a bit due to the high focus of SDA on Sabbath.
• He equates obedience to Sabbath, which makes sense to a point, but obedience to God is the point - IOW man's focus is obedience which can equate to rest - man's focus is not rest which can equate to obedience.
  • We can rest on Sabbath after being disobedient for 6 days, which he does mention.
• I'm concerned that some of his thinking re: works are off, but I'm simply recognizing where I got a check in my spirit.
• He made it clear in one statement that the or a major point of SDA mission is to bring people to observe the Saturday Sabbath. This IMO is not a good focus.
• At about 1:10 in, he says 1844 was one of the major milestones of Christianity - equated with such events as the fall & the return of Christ - this is where I shut off - honestly, and I mean no disrespect to you, I also shut off when I see or hear of the pope.
• I like his focus on the meanings of words. It makes for some interesting ties and thoughts - but such IMO should be considered cautiously.
  • For another interesting lesson on the meaning of words maybe you've seen this. You can skip to near the end to see if it's of interest and go back for the details if interested.

Yes, my approach is more technical. I believe the Text & I think we're still working to know precisely what it says and means. If I don't have the Word & His Spirit, then I'm left with joining a club for whatever reason may strike me from whatever may be my need or reasoning at the time. Then that club will almost certainly work to turn me into one of its evangelists & soldiers. I've been there. It's very eye-opening to see that one can fight for something and later come to see it from the Word as false. It seems consistent than when a camp gets hyper focused on an issue, there's a problem. For me, my hyper-focus is on loving God, which is guarding & obeying His commandments (BTW, I like how the pastor brought out this "guarding" concept in the Garden). The weekly Sabbath is still under consideration. I've observed it in a Messianic congregation for a few years and it was admittedly a beautiful experience. I've also not observed it and I'm still at rest. He'll convince me otherwise if or when He sees fit.

Thank you for the info. I'm watching for technical discussions where posters are interested in working through Scripture like Galatians & maybe Romans re: calendar issues and such. I'm a staunch advocate for God's Law properly understood & properly used.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

OK. Admittedly on 2x speed & looking at just a few of the verses he mentioned and listening re: the rest:

Thanks for watching, I appreciate it. I'm sorry you didn't get the same message from the sermon that I did, but that's okay, it happens.

• I'm concerned that he's spinning things a bit due to the high focus of SDA on Sabbath.

Can you give me some instances? I actually find this sermon to be more about "God's rest" and less about the Sabbath commandment.

• He equates obedience to Sabbath, which makes sense to a point, but obedience to God is the point - IOW man's focus is obedience which can equate to rest - man's focus is not rest which can equate to obedience.
  • We can rest on Sabbath after being disobedient for 6 days, which he does mention.

From what I gathered in the sermon, he equates obedience to rest. When we are out of harmony with what God commands (not just the Sabbath commandment but most certainly included) we do not have rest.

Here some examples in scripture....

Isaiah 48:18 Oh, that you had heeded My commandments! Then your peace would have been like a river, And your righteousness like the waves of the sea.

Hebrews 4:6 Since therefore it remains that some must enter it, and those to whom it was first preached did not enter because of disobedience

Revelation 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”

I know this is a future prophecy, but I think the principle applies today, we only receive perfect rest when we are in harmony with God's will, which is everything He has commanded us and why the Spirit of Truth convicts us when we go away from that John 16:8 if we have not hardened our heart in rebellion Hebrews 3:15, Psalms 95:7-8 and can no longer hear His voice.

• I'm concerned that some of his thinking re: works are off, but I'm simply recognizing where I got a check in my spirit.

If you have some examples....

• He made it clear in one statement that the or a major point of SDA mission is to bring people to observe the Saturday Sabbath. This IMO is not a good focus.

Actually, the mission of the Adventist church is to bring people back to the everlasting gospel truth. That we should prepare for the Second Coming of Jesus Christ, but most people are living in Babylon obeying what was handed down to them instead of obeying what God commands, which include the Ten Commandments and the Sabbath commandment. Most people don't take issue with the other nine commandments, whether they obey them or not they are, but the Sabbath is the only one in contention and the only one God said is a sign between Him and His people Ezekiel 20:12 Ezekiel 20:20. I personally don't find it consistent that we should obey the Ten Commandments but then treat the Sabbath commandment differently than the other nine.

• At about 1:10 in, he says 1844 was one of the major milestones of Christianity - equated with such events as the fall & the return of Christ - this is where I shut off - honestly, and I mean no disrespect to you, I also shut off when I see or hear of the pope.

I understand, it's this way for a lot of people, and I know you are not a fan of Eschatology but God gave us Daniel/Revelation to help His end time people, so we won't be deceived. The timelines from scripture are really fascinating. Its not about the people in these institutions, but more the doctrine and what it stands for. God has people in all denominations, but wants us to come out of these false teachings and worship Him in Truth and Spirit.

• I like his focus on the meanings of words. It makes for some interesting ties and thoughts - but such IMO should be considered cautiously.
  • For another interesting lesson on the meaning of words maybe you've seen this. You can skip to near the end to see if it's of interest and go back for the details if interested.

Thanks I'll check it out a little later, after I finish posting I need to get back to work, I will watch though as soon as I can.

Yes, my approach is more technical. I believe the Text & I think we're still working to know precisely what it says and means. If I don't have the Word & His Spirit, then I'm left with joining a club for whatever reason may strike me from whatever may be my need or reasoning at the time. Then that club will almost certainly work to turn me into one of its evangelists & soldiers. I've been there. It's very eye-opening to see that one can fight for something and later come to see it from the Word as false. It seems consistent than when a camp gets hyper focused on an issue, there's a problem. For me, my hyper-focus is on loving God, which is guarding & obeying His commandments (BTW, I like how the pastor brought out this "guarding" concept in the Garden). The weekly Sabbath is still under consideration. I've observed it in a Messianic congregation for a few years and it was admittedly a beautiful experience. I've also not observed it and I'm still at rest. He'll convince me otherwise if or when He sees fit.

I understand, and most people think SDA's are hyper focused just on the Sabbath and while there is some truth to that the SDA church is focused on the scriptures in its entirety. As a church they go through the entire bible for bible study/Sabbath school every 3-4 years. I think the Sabbath is more brought up because it's the one commandments people take issue with, but it's part of God's Truth Psalms 119:151 and how we are called to worship Him in Truth and Spirit John 4:23-24 and what if God meant what He said, that He wants us to Remember the sabbath day and keep it holy. I believe He does, and I also believe He treats the Sabbath commandment like He does the other commandments. I think the point of the sermon is to be in harmony with God to receive His rest we must be in harmony with His Word and His commandments.

I'm a staunch advocate for God's Law properly understood & properly used.

Amen. Thanks again.

 

[GDL]

Thanks for watching, I appreciate it. I'm sorry you didn't get the same message from the sermon that I did, but that's okay, it happens.

Can you give me some instances? I actually find this sermon to be more about "God's rest" and less about the Sabbath commandment.
From what I gathered in the sermon, he equates obedience to rest. When we are out of harmony with what God commands (not just the Sabbath commandment but most certainly included) we do not have rest.

From what I gathered in the sermon, he equates obedience to rest. When we are out of harmony with what God commands (not just the Sabbath commandment but most certainly included) we do not have rest.

Not in any more specifics than I did, which was openly admittedly very quick.

He begins with sabbatismos (an intersting word BTW) and works from rest to everything it may mean and is inclusive of as I understood him. From rest to obedience - no obedience no rest. Sabbatismos was the basis of the lesson as I heard him.

Here some examples in scripture....

Isaiah 48:18 Oh, that you had heeded My commandments! Then your peace would have been like a river, And your righteousness like the waves of the sea.

Hebrews 4:6 Since therefore it remains that some must enter it, and those to whom it was first preached did not enter because of disobedience

Revelation 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”

I know this is a future prophecy, but I think the principle applies today, we only receive perfect rest when we are in harmony with God's will, which is everything He has commanded us and why the Spirit of Truth convicts us when we go away from that John 16:8 if we have not hardened our heart in rebellion Hebrews 3:15, Psalms 95:7-8 and can no longer hear His voice.

Basically agreed. Obedience to God is central to the entire Text IMO. Especially when we understand it as love for Him, for neighbor, for one another. No obedience no love no matter how we feel. No love no obedience. It's really quite simple in concept. Then we begin discussing how law fits in.

If you have some examples....

Sorry, no I don't. I was just getting the overview for the most part.

Actually, the mission of the Adventist church is to bring people back to the everlasting gospel truth. That we should prepare for the Second Coming of Jesus Christ, but most people are living in Babylon obeying what was handed down to them instead of obeying what God commands, which include the Ten Commandments and the Sabbath commandment. Most people don't take issue with the other nine commandments, whether they obey them or not they are, but the Sabbath is the only one in contention and the only one God said is a sign between Him and His people Ezekiel 20:12 Ezekiel 20:20. I personally don't find it consistent that we should obey the Ten Commandments but then treat the Sabbath commandment differently than the other nine.

I think the SDA's focus on Sabbath is front & center - it's contained in their name. 1844 was a big date for SDA. Most of these threads re: Sabbath are SDA based. Many if not most Christians to varying degrees see life as a preparation of eternity. If I personally narrow the focus a bit, I see life in part as preparation for the Judgment Seat of Christ where for His glory and my thankfulness I'd like to receive a "well done."

Many see the signs language of the OC, like the verses you and I referenced, as Covenantal signs and the reason for such harsh punishment being the breaking of covenant.

I fully understand the inclusion of all 10 thinking. I also see some reasoning from Scripture that is very compelling in support of it and some that I question. Some of this reasoning mainly in the NC Writings I'm not in agreement with yet, but I'm not fully resolved, and I don't see the level of detail in working in the Text in these threads that convinces me one way or another. I can go into very focused studies in Journals and find well-reasoned arguments supporting both views of including and not including the 4th in the 10 any longer. I'm slowly working on it myself and favor only the Biblically accurate truth. If it makes sense, when there is so much disagreement on an issue, as in so many issues, I just go back to doing the work and research myself (Rom14:5 last clause concept - setting aside the 1st clause coincidence for now).

I understand, it's this way for a lot of people, and I know you are not a fan of Eschatology but God gave us Daniel/Revelation to help His end time people, so we won't be deceived. The timelines from scripture are really fascinating. Its not about the people in these institutions, but more the doctrine and what it stands for. God has people in all denominations but wants us to come out of these false teachings and worship Him in Truth and Spirit.

It's not that I'm not a fan of Eschatology. I'm a fan of all things Biblical. It's just that I don't belong to a denomination, I know there are several points of view, I know that Eschatology is more aggressively debated than even Sabbath, and from my viewpoint after being schooled to some decent degree in the major views and reading fairly extensively in them, I'm satisfied for myself that the debate will rage for some time & I'm not the one who will be deeply involved in it. Honestly, my focus is more on who we are to be, what we are to be doing, and knowing God will work out His Eschatology how He plans to when He plans to. My more focused eschatology is we're all going to stand before Him and give account whenever He has determined to make that take place.

Thanks I'll check it out a little later, after I finish posting I need to get back to work, I will watch though as soon as I can.

I recall it from decades ago and seem to remember it periodically.

I understand, and most people think SDA's are hyper focused just on the Sabbath and while there is some truth to that the SDA church is focused on the scriptures in its entirety. As a church they go through the entire bible for bible study/Sabbath school every 3-4 years. I think the Sabbath is more brought up because it's the one commandments people take issue with, but it's part of God's Truth Psalms 119:151 and how we are called to worship Him in Truth and Spirit John 4:23-24 and what if God meant what He said, that He wants us to Remember the sabbath day and keep it holy. I believe He does, and I also believe He treats the Sabbath commandment like He does the other commandments. I think the point of the sermon is to be in harmony with God to receive His rest we must be in harmony with His Word and His commandments.

FWIW, the last place I lived - on an island with 60k or so inhabitants - I had a few SDA acquaintances I would talk with periodically. Our discussions were always pleasant, and we enjoyed them and my sense was that we had a good level of respect for one another. It was obvious we also had some differences and my being ordained not in SDA and doing some teaching there, we knew our discussions would find disagreements that none of us chose to delve into. We each knew each other's point of view and not just on a surface level.

I agree with your last sentence, and I would not view it as being in isolation from your prior sentence. I think this is the major point re: SDA. No Saturday Sabbath then no harmony with God. As such, maybe no ultimate harmony with the rest of Christendom??? Then, in fairness to SDA, this works both ways.

Amen. Thanks again.

Same to you.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Not in any more specifics than I did, which was openly admittedly very quick.

He begins with sabbatismos (an intersting word BTW) and works from rest to everything it may mean and is inclusive of as I understood him. From rest to obedience - no obedience no rest. Sabbatismos was the basis of the lesson as I heard him.

Yes, sabbatismos is a very interesting word. In the Greek it literally translates into keeping the Sabbath but it also has a broader heavenly meaning which is what Pastor Myers was focusing on.

a Sabbath rest
σαββατισμὸς (sabbatismos)
Noun - Nominative Masculine Singular
Strong's 4520: A keeping of the Sabbath, a Sabbath rest. From a derivative of sabbaton; a 'sabbatism', i.e. the repose of Christianity.

Basically agreed. Obedience to God is central to the entire Text IMO. Especially when we understand it as love for Him, for neighbor, for one another. No obedience no love no matter how we feel. No love no obedience. It's really quite simple in concept.

Agreed

I think the SDA's focus on Sabbath is front & center - it's contained in their name. 1844 was a big date for SDA.

There's a lot of misconception of 1844 and lot of history has been re-written me and another person personally witnessed things from Wikipedia being deleted and re-written as one example.

The short of it, many people believe that the SDA church predicated 1844, but the SDA church was not formed until 1863. It was a Baptist minster who predicted the second coming of Jesus in 1844, EGW was a Methodist at the time and was just 17 years old and this predication came after studying Daniel/Revelation. Obviously the prediction didn't happen, it was not what the sanctuary being cleaned meant as God also has a heavenly sanctuary. This just set up a timeline to know where we are, and it fits history to a tee once you study it.

Anyway, the SDA church didn't establish until almost 20 years after 1844 after careful study of scriptures.

Most of these threads re: Sabbath are SDA based.

It's probably because the SDA are the largest Sabbath group there is.

Many if not most Christians to varying degrees see life as a preparation of eternity. If I personally narrow the focus a bit, I see life in part as preparation for the Judgment Seat of Christ where for His glory and my thankfulness I'd like to receive a "well done."

Yes, we would all like to receive a well-done and I see life as a test, just like there was a test for the Israelites and since God gives His people free will, we need to be fit for His heavenly kingdom.

Many see the signs language of the OC, like the verses you and I referenced, as Covenantal signs and the reason for such harsh punishment being the breaking of covenant.

I fully understand the inclusion of all 10 thinking. I also see some reasoning from Scripture that is very compelling in support of it and some that I question. Some of this reasoning mainly in the NC Writings I'm not in agreement with yet, but I'm not fully resolved, and I don't see the level of detail in working in the Text in these threads that convinces me one way or another. I can go into very focused studies in Journals and find well-reasoned arguments supporting both views of including and not including the 4th in the 10 any longer. I'm slowly working on it myself and favor only the Biblically accurate truth. If it makes sense, when there is so much disagreement on an issue, as in so many issues, I just go back to doing the work and research myself (Rom14:5 last clause concept - setting aside the 1st clause coincidence for now).

I have yet to run across the scripture that says we are not supposed to obey the commandments of God and that the Sabbath is not one of God's commandments. Romans 14:5 doesn't even use the word Sabbath and if God was going to do away with one of His commandments, especially the one that has to do with our time, it would be just as clear as how He gave them- spoken and written personally by God. If the Sabbath was going to be changed, we would simply see "the seventh day" in the NT instead of the Sabbath. There was never any disagreement about which day in scripture is the Sabbath, that only came after scripture. The Jews crucified Jesus because they wrongly thought He broke the Sabbath, if the Sabbath was going to be changed there would be an uproar in scripture, not silence.

I personally don't see this huge difference between the Old and New Covenant. Is there differences, yes, its a better covenant based on better promises and Jesus is our Mediator and High Priest now and we no longer sacrifice animals because Jesus paid the penalty for our sins and became the Sacrificial Lamb, but God wrote His laws in our hearts and minds, and I don't see them as different laws, which is why Jesus observed His Fathers commandments and is our example to follow.

It's not that I'm not a fan of Eschatology. I'm a fan of all things Biblical. It's just that I don't belong to a denomination, I know there are several points of view, I know that Eschatology is more aggressively debated than even Sabbath, and from my viewpoint after being schooled to some decent degree in the major views and reading fairly extensively in them, I'm satisfied for myself that the debate will rage for some time & I'm not the one who will be deeply involved in it. Honestly, my focus is more on who we are to be, what we are to be doing, and knowing God will work out His Eschatology how He plans to when He plans to. My more focused eschatology is we're all going to stand before Him and give account whenever He has determined to make that take place.

I recall it from decades ago and seem to remember it periodically.

FWIW, the last place I lived - on an island with 60k or so inhabitants - I had a few SDA acquaintances I would talk with periodically. Our discussions were always pleasant, and we enjoyed them and my sense was that we had a good level of respect for one another. It was obvious we also had some differences and my being ordained not in SDA and doing some teaching there, we knew our discussions would find disagreements that none of us chose to delve into. We each knew each other's point of view and not just on a surface level.

Yes, there are a lot of SDA out there, most are very nice people, but I have found not everyone who claims to be SDA actually believes in the teachings of the church which people assume all SDAs believe the same and that's not always the case. But as a whole most believe in our 28 fundamental beliefs.

I agree with your last sentence, and I would not view it as being in isolation from your prior sentence. I think this is the major point re: SDA. No Saturday Sabbath then no harmony with God. As such, maybe no ultimate harmony with the rest of Christendom??? Then, in fairness to SDA, this works both ways.

I'm sorry this is what you get from our postings. Yes, we focus a lot on the Sabbath, but we do not see the Sabbath commandment in isolation. God did not isolate the Sabbath commandment, its in the middle of all the other commandments. It's not just no Sabbath no harmony with God, it is disobeying God period which of course includes the Sabbath commandment because God included it. You break one commandment you break them all James 2:10-12 and God placed the Ten Commandments in a unit of Ten so only He can separate them and there is no such scripture that says God separated the Sabbath commandment from the rest. Love to God is keeping His commandments, resting in God is also keeping His commandments, which is why the commandments are law of liberty, freedom from being a slave to sin and freedom to rest in Christ in harmony with everything He asks of His children because He knows what's best.

PS I will watch your video this evening as part of my nightly devotional and will comment about it later. Thanks for sharing.

 

[GDL]

I have yet to run across the scripture that says we are not supposed to obey the commandments of God and that the Sabbath is not one of God's commandments. Romans 14:5 doesn't even use the word Sabbath and if God was going to do away with one of His commandments, especially the one that has to do with our time, it would be just as clear as how He gave them- spoken and written personally by God

My reference to Rom14:5 was simply in general about being persuaded about [anything Scriptural] in my own mind. I do realize I negated the days issue in context to use just this 2nd clause. I tried to make this clear.

IMO we're not dealing with just the 10C now, but much more in regard to His righteousness. As you know, some try to negate the 10 from the summary command from Lev19:18. The next level is negating details that fall under the headings of the 10C, such as all the things we might discuss under the 7th or 8th Commandments.

My point is that Law is a big discussion and we're dealing now with a changed Law based upon the New Priesthood and the Final Sacrifice and the New Temple/Body, etc. I'm simply still open to discussion on the 4th and how it may be changed now in Christ.

Since we've touched on Rom14:5, I'm not anywhere near as concerned about this verse in context, as I am for example with Gal4:10 in context and also the whole theory of Law being just for Israel. But this is just the beginning of Sabbath discussions for me, and I strongly doubt these threads are a way to work through them. It's just way too difficult to keep discussions focused and proceed point by point. It also seems the typical process here is for most to put forth general statements about the meaning of a verse but when discussion gets too deep into context and actual wording, the conversation ends or shifts away. It's also a breeding ground for hostility. Really and honestly, how many come here to learn something or work through something vs. coming here to be denominational keyboard warriors?

BTW, 1844 was not by my mention, but by the pastor's in the video and IMO it was a ludicrous statement that caused me to end my viewing.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

My reference to Rom14:5 was simply in general about being persuaded about [anything Scriptural] in my own mind. I do realize I negated the days issue in context to use just this 2nd clause. I tried to make this clear.

Gotcha. I personally don’t see Roman14:5 about being persuaded by scripture and that seems like a slippery slope if that were the true context that could have anyone believing what they wanted, but thats a whole other topic…

IMO we're not dealing with just the 10C now, but much more in regard to His righteousness.

I do not separate God’s law from God’s righteousness. There’s an older thread that compares God with God’s law which reveals His character Removing the laws of God- what does it really mean?

As you know, some try to negate the 10 from the summary command from Lev19:18. The next level is negating details that fall under the headings of the 10C, such as all the things we might discuss under the 7th or 8th Commandments.

My point is that Law is a big discussion and we're dealing now with a changed Law based upon the New Priesthood and the Final Sacrifice and the New Temple/Body, etc. I'm simply still open to discussion on the 4th and how it may be changed now in Christ.

I don’t see how Jesus being our High Priest would change any of the Ten Commandments or how it would only change one of the Ten, seems inconsistent, the law that changed was the priesthood Hebrews 7, not the Ten Commandments. There is clear scripture to not add or subtract to the commandments Deut 4:2 so I don’t see why this would not continue in the NC, God does not change so I don’t see how God’s works could change Exodus 32:16 which reveals His character.

Since we've touched on Rom14:5, I'm not anywhere near as concerned about this verse in context, as I am for example with Gal4:10 in context and also the whole theory of Law being just for Israel.

I don’t see Gal 4:10 referring to the Sabbath commandment. The law of God is so clear and precise, written and spoken personally by God, if done away with, it would be just as clear. Galatians is a tough chapter as is a lot of Pauls writings, I personally think Rom 14:5 Col 2:14-17 and Gal 4:10 are all connected and have nothing to do with any of the Ten Commandments, but the ceremonial feasts days that ended when Jesus became our Sacrifice for the forgiveness of sins.

But this is just the beginning of Sabbath discussions for me, and I strongly doubt these threads are a way to work through them. It's just way too difficult to keep discussions focused and proceed point by point. It also seems the typical process here is for most to put forth general statements about the meaning of a verse but when discussion gets too deep into context and actual wording, the conversation ends or shifts away. It's also a breeding ground for hostility. Really and honestly, how many come here to learn something or work through something vs. coming here to be denominational keyboard warriors?

I agree, all we can do is plant the seed and pray and let the Holy Spirit do the rest.

BTW, 1844 was not by my mention, but by the pastor's in the video and IMO it was a ludicrous statement that caused me to end my viewing.

Interesting, I briefly remember him mentioning something about 1844, no alarm bells went off for me, if I have time I’ll go back and see what he said.

Anyway, I appreciate the discussion, it doesn’t appear we are going to see things the same way and thats okay hopefully we can still be friends.

 

[GDL]

Gotcha. I personally don’t see Roman14:5 about being persuaded by scripture and that seems like a slippery slope if that were the true context that could have anyone believing what they wanted, but thats a whole other topic…

The context is food and days. My statement was general, but it is not unbounded, and the slippery slope is part of my vocabulary. Days are specifically stated here - related to food or not I'm uncertain at this point. I've seen some talk about fasting and some Bible notes point to Zech, but I haven't looked that deeply. It seems an abrupt insertion, but I've also noted an uncertainty as to what exactly Paul was dealing with. He doesn't mention idols as in Corinth. It seems more an asceticism or a temperance. The issue for it being some pagan issue I wouldn't easily lean on since Paul was not one to allow pagan traditions to enter into the Faith. He was more concerned with Jewish issues that were yet to know Christian freedoms, IMO.

I do not separate God’s law from God’s righteousness. There’s an older thread that compares God with God’s law which reveals His character Removing the laws of God- what does it really mean?

Nor do I. But I know certain parts of His Law were changed and that His Covenant with Israel was replaced, and that Sabbath was a covenantal sign with Israel. So, questions remain.

I don’t see how Jesus being our High Priest would change any of the Ten Commandments or how it would only change one of the Ten, seems inconsistent, the law that changed was the priesthood Hebrews 7, not the Ten Commandments. There is clear scripture to not add or subtract to the commandments Deut 4:2 so I don’t see why this would not continue in the NC, God does not change so I don’t see how God’s works could change Exodus 32:16 which reveals His character.

And I know from reading you that you know what you see or don't see is not the ultimate arbiter of Scripture.

The only Law Giver (James4:12) must have the right to change His Law as He determines appropriate for the age (Heb7:12). Deut4:2 does not apply to Him. I don't automatically see Sabbath as His character but indicative of something He's done and plans to have in His Creation.

Just to be clear, I'm currently not in any way opposed to observing Sabbath. However, if it's not commanded for us in Christ, and it's being pushed as necessary for Christians, I would be opposed to that push.

I don’t see Gal 4:10 referring to the Sabbath commandment. The law of God is so clear and precise, written and spoken personally by God, if done away with, it would be just as clear. Galatians is a tough chapter as is a lot of Pauls writings, I personally think Rom 14:5 Col 2:14-17 and Gal 4:10 are all connected and have nothing to do with any of the Ten Commandments, but the ceremonial feasts days that ended when Jesus became our Sacrifice for the forgiveness of sins.

But I know others do not see Gal4:10 as you do. If the feasts are no longer necessary to observe, then another day may not be necessary to observe, especially since it was a sign of a covenant that is no longer valid - a covenant for "children" kept under guard until Christ - and a Law that included many things like feasts that taught about Messiah and God's calendar. And there are views that just as He is the fulfillment of the feasts, and the Creator who rested, He is also the fulfillment of Sabbath & Lord of Sabbath who gives us rest in our labors (Matt11:29-30) as we await the final rest - the already not yet concept - when He puts the creation back in order and we can rest in unified obedience/love with Him in a land where righteousness dwells.

I've said it elsewhere, but I don't think we pay enough heed to Paul's discussion of freedom in Christ as adult sons. And unless we get this understanding, we can easily keep ourselves playing in the sandbox. The bondage to the basic principles discussed in Gal4 seems to apply to Jews at minimum (Gal4:3). I'm still wrestling with that language and context and I'm open to remaining as neutral as I can while looking at it.

I agree, all we can do is plant the seed and pray and let the Holy Spirit do the rest.

But that seed that SDA works so hard to plant is indicative of SDA's ministry to some fair degree. The SDA pastor on the video seems clearly to have that mindset. And that seed is not germinating and taking root in many. Would it then be that SDA would say such ones do not have the Spirit?

Interesting, I briefly remember him mentioning something about 1844, no alarm bells went off for me, if I have time I’ll go back and see what he said.

If you do listen, as I recall and think I said, it's around the 1:10 mark and the context I heard was it being one of the major events in Biblical history (or some such statement) - in the context of the fall through the return of Christ. That's an astounding assertion.

Anyway, I appreciate the discussion, it doesn’t appear we are going to see things the same way and thats okay hopefully we can still be friends.

Our interactions have been mutually respectful, which I appreciate, especially in this method of communication where it's so easy to depart from respect. I have yet to really get into Sabbath discussions. If I do and I decide to advocate for the 4th no longer being necessary for the Christian, hopefully the friendliness would remain. I think most of us have the ability and most of us also have the ability to lose it periodically. I know I do.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

The context is food and days. My statement was general, but it is not unbounded, and the slippery slope is part of my vocabulary. Days are specifically stated here - related to food or not I'm uncertain at this point. I've seen some talk about fasting and some Bible notes point to Zech, but I haven't looked that deeply. It seems an abrupt insertion, but I've also noted an uncertainty as to what exactly Paul was dealing with. He doesn't mention idols as in Corinth. It seems more an asceticism or a temperance. The issue for it being some pagan issue I wouldn't easily lean on since Paul was not one to allow pagan traditions to enter into the Faith. He was more concerned with Jewish issues that were yet to know Christian freedoms, IMO.

Yes, the context is food and days in Romans 14 and no mention of the Sabbath. Some things to consider on Romans 14 that from an older poster who is no longer here that I think does a good job of summing it up.

The days spoken of are associated with eating/drinking, not eating/not drinking.
The matter is over those 'weak' and 'strong' in faith concerning eating/drinking and days to do and not do those things on
The context deals with "One man esteemeth", and not what God esteems (Isaiah 56:1-8, 58:13; Psalms 89:34) as permanent and so, and God's word is clear about what men esteem: Luke 16:15 And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God. The Jews continually argued over which were better days to do this thing or that thing, like fasting, feasting, etc: [Matthew 9:14; Mark 2:18; Luke 5:33, Luke 18:12
The words for sabbath is not present in all of Romans 14, neither in all of Romans
The words of the seventh day is not present in all of Romans 14, neither in all of Romans
Romans 14 is in the context of Romans 13, which directly cites the latter (2nd) table of the Ten Commandments, for love to neighbour, which is also found in Leviticus 19:17-18, in the context of sin and the Ten Commandments.
Romans 15 is the other end, and when combined with 1 Corinthians 8-10, the context is clear that the sabbath of the LORD thy God (Exodus 20:8-11) is not in view in the least, and is sustained by the rest of Paul in Romans by his statements on the eternal spiritual, holy, just and good Law (Exodus 20:1-17) of God, which identifies what sin is (Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4)
The entire context of Romans 14 is to do nothing (even if allowed normally, yet not under special circumstances) to cause others to sin: Romans 14:13 Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumbling block or an occasion to fall in his brother's way.
Paul never contradicts himself, and Paul's writings are scripture (2 Peter 3:16), and scripture cannot be broken, John 10:35) and does not teach transgression of God's Law (Exodus 20:1-17) at any point:
Romans 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?

Nor do I. But I know certain parts of His Law were changed and that His Covenant with Israel was replaced, and that Sabbath was a covenantal sign with Israel. So, questions remain.

Personally, I think that's a reach. The Sabbath is part of the Ten Commandments that God placed together in a unit of Ten written by the finger of God on stone for its eternal nature, now written in the hearts and minds of His New Covenant believers. There is no such scripture that says only nine of the Ten commandments are valid and we can forget the one commandment God said to remember, the only commandment that uses the words holy and blessed Num 23:20, I hope you can see how silly that sounds. Jesus is our example to follow who observed the Sabbath day His entire life and kept all of the commandments and expected the Sabbath to be kept by His followers long after He ascended back to heaven. Matthew 24:20. There was no change in the Sabbath after the cross as its the day we see the apostles' keeping decades after observing every Sabbath in a holy manner, like the commandment tells us and what continues on for eternity Isaiah 66:23

If we examine the scripture people use to say the Sabbath is a sign of the covenant, its not what the scripture actually says. It says its a sign between God and His people- Israel is just a name God gave to identify His people, while there is literal Israel its also used symbolically to identify His people and the New Covenant, there is no distinction just people who are grafted in through faith. Gal 3:26-28. The Sabbath is a memorial of Creation, it points us back to everything God made for us without us and to depend on Him.

Exodus 32:16 Therefore the children of Israel shall keep the Sabbath, to observe the Sabbath throughout their generations as a perpetual covenant. 17 It is a sign between Me and the children of Israel forever; for in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, and on the seventh day He rested and was refreshed.’

Ezekiel 20:12 Moreover I also gave them My Sabbaths, to be a sign between them and Me, that they might know that I am the Lord who sanctifies them

Ezekiel 20:20 hallow My Sabbaths, and they will be a sign between Me and you, that you may know that I am the Lord your God.’

And I know from reading you that you know what you see or don't see is not the ultimate arbiter of Scripture.

The only Law Giver (James4:12) must have the right to change His Law as He determines appropriate for the age (Heb7:12). Deut4:2 does not apply to Him.

I haven't come across scripture stating Jesus changed the Sabbath commandment - have you? If not, this seems like a mute point. We see Jesus advocating to keep the commandments of God and Jesus Himself observing the Sabbath Luke 4:16 (be doers of the Word James 1:22) and keeping all of the commandments John 15:10. Jesus and the apostles taught on the Sabbath, which I don't see how this translates into not keeping the Sabbath commandment.

Some examples

It is lawful to do good on the Sabbath Matthew 12:1-12, Mark 3:1-5, Luke 6:1-16, Luke 14:1-5
Jesus is our example to follow 1 John 2:6 and kept the Sabbath Mark 6:2, Luke 4:16, Luke 4:31 2 Pet 2:20-22
The Sabbath is still a commandment Luke 23:56
Jesus made the Sabbath for mankind Mark 2:27
Jesus is Lord of the Sabbath Mark 2:28 instead of being the Lords day is day 1.
If you do not believe and follow God you cannot enter His Sabbath rest Hebrews 4
It is one of God’s 10 commandments we break it we are guilty or breaking all James 2:10-12
Breaking it is sin 1 John 3:4 Romans 7:7
The Apostle kept the Sabbath Acts 13:14; Acts 13:27; Acts 13:44; Acts 15:21; Acts 16:13; Acts 17:2; Acts 18:4

I don't automatically see Sabbath as His character but indicative of something He's done and plans to have in His Creation.

God is Holy:
Isaiah 5:16 But the Lord of hosts shall be exalted in judgment,
And God who is holy shall be hallowed in righteousness.

God’s law is Holy:
Romans 7:12 Therefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy and just and good.

Incidentally, the only commandment that uses the word "holy" and "blessed" is the Sabbath commandment, the one commandment everyone says we should forget.

The Sabbath was indeed part of Creation Genesis 2:1-3 God's perfect plan before sin entered. The Sabbath is about communion with God- weekly time (on the seventh day Exodus 20:10) set aside sanctified for holy use. This is one of two commandments that requires us to actually do something.

Just to be clear, I'm currently not in any way opposed to observing Sabbath. However, if it's not commanded for us in Christ, and it's being pushed as necessary for Christians, I would be opposed to that push.

I don't see the Sabbath commandment different than any other commandment so not sure I understand the argument. Is there a push to only worship God? God said and wrote that just like He did the Sabbath commandment.

But I know others do not see Gal4:10 as you do. If the feasts are no longer necessary to observe, then another day may not be necessary to observe, especially since it was a sign of a covenant that is no longer valid - a covenant for "children" kept under guard until Christ - and a Law that included many things like feasts that taught about Messiah and God's calendar. And there are views that just as He is the fulfillment of the feasts, and the Creator who rested, He is also the fulfillment of Sabbath & Lord of Sabbath who gives us rest in our labors (Matt11:29-30) as we await the final rest - the already not yet concept - when He puts the creation back in order and we can rest in unified obedience/love with Him in a land where righteousness dwells.

Here is an older post that goes into detail about the feast days I think its worth the time to read as it is very detailed. COLOSSIANS 2:14-17 ARE YOU BEING TOLD THE TRUTH -UPDATED

But that seed that SDA works so hard to plant is indicative of SDA's ministry to some fair degree. The SDA pastor on the video seems clearly to have that mindset. And that seed is not germinating and taking root in many. Would it then be that SDA would say such ones do not have the Spirit?

I don't think 22 million is something to sneeze about and the church spends most of its time planting churches all over the world and spends significant time spreading the gospel through various channels which is what we are called to do. There are many people who have God's Spirit living up to the light they have. Once we know the truth and turn from it is when it becomes problematic- hardening ones heart in rebellion that they no longer hear the voice of God. I do not think keeping the Sabbath automatically saves someone, but I don't think disobeying any of God's commandments is a good idea either.

If you do listen, as I recall and think I said, it's around the 1:10 mark and the context I heard was it being one of the major events in Biblical history (or some such statement) - in the context of the fall through the return of Christ. That's an astounding assertion.

1844 establishes a timeline in scripture which matches historical events described in Daniel and Revelations. It does not predict the day or the hour as no one knows that, but it gives God's people tangible signs so we can be prepared for Jesus Coming so we know the time is near and not to give up hope. I'll go back and listen to the video and comment further if needed.

Our interactions have been mutually respectful,

Agreed

which I appreciate,

Me too.

especially in this method of communication where it's so easy to depart from respect.

Agreed

I have yet to really get into Sabbath discussions. If I do and I decide to advocate for the 4th no longer being necessary for the Christian, hopefully the friendliness would remain.

Of course. To be honest though, I don't think there is a gray area to being obedient to God's commandments and you seem to agree with the exception of the 4th commandment. IMHO I think not picking a side is actually by default picking a side.

I think most of us have the ability and most of us also have the ability to lose it periodically. I know I do.

Me too, I pray about it and it bothers me when I do that. Still working on it.

 

[GDL]

Personally, I think that's a reach. The Sabbath is part of the Ten Commandments that God placed together in a unit of Ten written by the finger of God on stone for its eternal nature, now written in the hearts and minds of His New Covenant believers. There is no such scripture that says only nine of the Ten commandments are valid and we can forget the one commandment God said to remember, the only commandment that uses the words holy and blessed Num 23:20, I hope you can see how silly that sounds. Jesus is our example to follow who observed the Sabbath day His entire life and kept all of the commandments and expected the Sabbath to be kept by His followers long after He ascended back to heaven. Matthew 24:20. There was no change in the Sabbath after the cross as its the day we see the apostles' keeping decades after observing every Sabbath in a holy manner, like the commandment tells us and what continues on for eternity Isaiah 66:23

You're inserting a lot of commentary that may also be a reach. If you'd like to pick one or a couple comments at a time and wring it out with Scripture, please feel free. I know you're loaded to bear on the topic, but throwing too much at me at once will result in my bowing out because it's simply takes too much work to hit every point at once and points can become lost in all the clutter.

It seems to me just the fact that the stones are not an issue anymore and Law is being put in minds and written on hearts may tell us the Law on stones was not eternal. So, I'd be looking for mention of what is definitely, or most reasonably part of the Law being written on hearts.

Is there a clear command in the NC to keep Sabbath?

• If there's not, then why with 1,000+/- commands in the NC is it not clearly mentioned given its proposed importance?

Is there any mention of breaking Sabbath in any of the lists of sins in a few areas of the NC?

• Given the fact that breaking Sabbath was punishable by death in the OC, where is its mention in the lists of sins?

Was keeping Sabbath a clear command post Garden of Eden to pre-Moses?

 

[GDL]

If we examine the scripture people use to say the Sabbath is a sign of the covenant, its not what the scripture actually says. It says its a sign between God and His people- Israel is just a name God gave to identify His people, while there is literal Israel its also used symbolically to identify His people and the New Covenant, there is no distinction just people who are grafted in through faith. Gal 3:26-28. The Sabbath is a memorial of Creation, it points us back to everything God made for us without us and to depend on Him.

Scripture also doesn't clearly say "this is covenant structure language" yet those who study covenant language have identified a substantial amount of covenant structure and language in Scripture by knowing how to look for it. There is quite a bit of information available on these studies under the heading of suzerain vassal treaties in case you haven't seen them. They note the "sign" wording in covenants has to do with being a sign of the covenant that when broken breaks the treaty of loyalty and is thus a very serious matter. I don't see that issue with Sabbath in the NC.

The Sabbath in the 10C was both based in creation and a covenant and sign between God and the children of Israel per the Ex & Ez verses we've both referenced.

When we go to the Israel as God's people now concept, it would be best to see precisely & clearly how that means Sabbath - the sign of the OC - has been carried into the NC era. There is Scriptural reason to view the Law as having changed. To what extent is the question.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

You're inserting a lot of commentary that may also be a reach. If you'd like to pick one or a couple comments at a time and wring it out with Scripture, please feel free. I know you're loaded to bear on the topic, but throwing too much at me at once will result in my bowing out because it's simply takes too much work to hit every point at once and points can become lost in all the clutter.

Ok, I'll do my best.

It seems to me just the fact that the stones are not an issue anymore and Law is being put in minds and written on hearts may tell us the Law on stones was not eternal.

It's the same law, it just changed where it was placed.

So, I'd be looking for mention of what is definitely, or most reasonably part of the Law being written on hearts.

Is there a clear command in the NC to keep Sabbath?

I think the better argument would be- is there clear instruction not to keep the Sabbath commandment? Anytime you see keeping the commandments of God in the NT would include the Sabbath commandment. Is the Sabbath not a commandment of God? According to God it is. Deut 4:13,

The commandment is to Remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy. Did Jesus and the apostles do that that? Isn't leading by example stronger than telling someone? If the Sabbath commandment was changed in the scripture, there is no evidence to suggest that.

But to answer your question, all of the commandments were repeated for everyday Christian living in the NT.

The Law of God in the New Testament.
1. "You shall worship the Lord your God, and Him only you shall serve" (Matthew 4:10).
2. "Little children, keep yourselves from idols" (1 John 5:21). "Since we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Divine Nature is like gold or silver or stone, something shaped by art and man’s devising" (Acts 17:29).
3. "That the name of God and His doctrine may not be blasphemed" (1 Timothy 6:1).
4. "He has spoken in a certain place of the seventh day in this way: 'And God rested on the seventh day from all His works.' There remains therefore a rest ["keeping of a sabbath," margin] for the people of God. For he who has entered His rest has himself also ceased from his works as God did from His" (Hebrews 4:4, 9, 10).
Luke 23:56 And they rested on the Sabbath according to the commandment.
5. "Honor your father and your mother" (Matthew 19:19).
6. "You shall not murder" (Romans 13:9).
7. "You shall not commit adultery" (Matthew 19:18).
8. "You shall not steal" (Romans 13:9).
9. "You shall not bear false witness" (Romans 13:9).
10. "You shall not covet" (Romans 7:7).

The Law of God in the Old Testament.
1. "You shall have no other gods before Me" (Exodus 20:3).
2. "You shall not make for yourself a carved image—any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me, but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments" (Exodus 20:4–6).
3. "You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain, for the Lord will not hold him guiltless who takes His name in vain" (Exodus 20:7).
4. "Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days you shall labor and do all your work, but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord your God. In it you shall do no work: you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your male servant, nor your female servant, nor your cattle, nor your stranger who is within your gates. For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it" (Exodus 20:8–11).
5. "Honor your father and your mother, that your days may be long upon the land which the Lord your God is giving you" (Exodus 20:12).
6. "You shall not murder" (Exodus 20:13).
7. "You shall not commit adultery" (Exodus 20:14).
8. "You shall not steal" (Exodus 20:15).
9. "You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor" (Exodus 20:16).
10. "You shall not covet your neighbor’s house; you shall not covet your neighbor's wife, nor his male servant, nor his female servant, nor his ox, nor his donkey, nor anything that is your neighbor's" (Exodus 20:17).

• If there's not, then why with 1,000+/- commands in the NC is it not clearly mentioned given its proposed importance?

The Sabbath is mentioned over 50+ times in the NC- it didn't go anywhere. Almost all the scripture on the Sabbath is thus saith the Lord, to me that's hard to argue with.

Is there any mention of breaking Sabbath in any of the lists of sins in a few areas of the NC?

• Given the fact that breaking Sabbath was punishable by death in the OC, where is its mention in the lists of sins?

Sin is the transgression of the law 1 John 3:4 and Paul quotes directly from the Ten Commandments to identify sin Romans 7:7 He who said thou shalt not murder also said Remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy - you break one commandment you break them all James 2:10-12

Was keeping Sabbath a clear command post Garden of Eden to pre-Moses?

Do you think Adam and Eve would not have rested with God on the very first Sabbath? If you look at the language in Genesis 2:1-3 its almost identical to the Sabbath commandment Exodus 20:8-11. Where there is no law there is no sin Romans 4:15. Did Adam and Eve sin? Then there had to be law. Genesis 26:5 shows God's commandments existed way before Mt Sinai

 

[GDL]

I haven't come across scripture stating Jesus changed the Sabbath commandment - have you? If not, this seems like a mute point. We see Jesus advocating to keep the commandments of God and Jesus Himself observing the Sabbath Luke 4:16 and keeping all of the commandments John 15:10. Jesus and the apostles taught on the Sabbath, which I don't see how this translates into not keeping the Sabbath commandment.

But isn't that the point of looking at Scripture like Gal4 & Jesus being Lord of Sabbath & Jesus offering us rest while we work with Him under His yoke, etc. Is there no way that life in Christ in Spirit working with Him in rest is the already of the not yet complete fulfillment of the creation 7th day where man worked and will work and possibly is working at rest with God?

The observance of the 7th day is not the fulfillment of the concept.

The years between the crucifixion and the destruction of Jerusalem were in a sense open to Israel's repentance though Jesus foretold that they would not repent and turn to Him. Yes, there were Jews keeping Sabbath and Gentiles attending synagogue and new churches being planted and many things going on to establish the church. Then came destruction & no more temple & no more sacrifices & extensive death in Israel. For the most part the OC life was destroyed. Saying what Jesus did born under Law and what people were doing between the resurrection and destruction of Jerusalem does not seem like a very powerful argument to me. That generation was in great transition merging races and classes & all such things into Christ.