Is Calvinism a heresy?

[maxamir]

Are you a synergist if you believe we need to call on the Lord to be saved?

for “Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved.”
— Romans 10:13

Calling upon the name of the Lord is the fruit of salvation and not a condition unto salvation. In the same manner, the repentance and faith that God justly commands from all is something which is impossible for man to do in himself, which is why Christ said that a man must first be born again to do so (John 3:3-7).

Mar 10:26 And they were greatly astonished, saying among themselves, "Who then can be saved?"
Mar 10:27 But Jesus looked at them and said, "With men it is impossible, but not with God; for with God all things are possible."

 

[maxamir]

Timothy says nothing about submitting all authority to a book. Jesus is our Savior and OUR LORD, not a book, not even a book that is the Word of God. ALL Scripture is profitable, it does not say "ONLY" Scripture. Jesus also said nothing about Protestants dropping books from the Bible some 1400 years later.

Words carry truth and the Lord Jesus Christ is TRUTH. Obey Him!

Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Joh 14:6 Jesus said to him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.

Joh 8:32 And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free."

Col 2:3 in whom are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.

 

[maxamir]

The avatar is not relevant, I've swapped it around quite a lot. Besides, isn't this thread a discussion of a topic rather than an opportunity to pick on avatar choice?

you asked me why I brought it up and I answered you.

Will you address the main items I wrote in my last post to you?

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

you asked me why I brought it up and I answered you.

Will you address the main items I wrote in my last post to you?

No, they are just attempts to divert the thread away from the topic, and most are more personal reflections than genuine discussion of a topic.

 

[maxamir]

There is no "Roman Catholic" church, our Church is called the "Catholic Church." You can check out our Catechism of the Catholic Church and you will find no reference to the "Roman Catholic Church." By far the most popular rite of the Catholic Church is called the "Latin Rite" or "Roman Rite, here is the relevant section from the Catechism:

1200 From the first community of Jerusalem until the parousia, it is the same Paschal mystery that the Churches of God, faithful to the apostolic faith, celebrate in every place. The mystery celebrated in the liturgy is one, but the forms of its celebration are diverse.
1201 The mystery of Christ is so unfathomably rich that it cannot be exhausted by its expression in any single liturgical tradition. The history of the blossoming and development of these rites witnesses to a remarkable complementarity. When the Churches lived their respective liturgical traditions in the communion of the faith and the sacraments of the faith, they enriched one another and grew in fidelity to Tradition and to the common mission of the whole Church.66
1202 The diverse liturgical traditions have arisen by very reason of the Church's mission. Churches of the same geographical and cultural area came to celebrate the mystery of Christ through particular expressions characterized by the culture: in the tradition of the "deposit of faith,"67 in liturgical symbolism, in the organization of fraternal communion, in the theological understanding of the mysteries, and in various forms of holiness. Through the liturgical life of a local church, Christ, the light and salvation of all peoples, is made manifest to the particular people and culture to which that Church is sent and in which she is rooted. The Church is catholic, capable of integrating into her unity, while purifying them, all the authentic riches of cultures.68
1203 The liturgical traditions or rites presently in use in the Church are the Latin (principally the Roman rite, but also the rites of certain local churches, such as the Ambrosian rite, or those of certain religious orders) and the Byzantine, Alexandrian or Coptic, Syriac, Armenian, Maronite and Chaldean rites. In "faithful obedience to tradition, the sacred Council declares that Holy Mother Church holds all lawfully recognized rites to be of equal right and dignity, and that she wishes to preserve them in the future and to foster them in every way."69

The protestant confessions many times also call themselves Catholic such as the one below.

The 1647 Westminster Confession of Faith - Chapter 25: Of the Church

 

[maxamir]

No, they are just attempts to divert the thread away from the topic, and most are more personal reflections than genuine discussion of a topic.

please reread post 799 and the latter points you have not addressed.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

If you have followed my previous posts, you should know that all of the letters are predicated on the first. Did man actually die as God promised in Genesis 2:17 or not and what does that death mean?

The T of TULIP means what in your theology? Total Depravity isn't total in intensity, is it? It's said to be total in extent, by which is meant that every faculty of human nature is depraved. So, what's 'depraved'? The idea is to be morally corrupt or to be wicked. So the T means that, every part of human nature is morally corrupt and I imagine one might add tends towards wickedness. Is that the truth? Is it what the scriptures teach about human nature? And is this T applicable to everyone, especially everyone mentioned in holy scripture?

 

[maxamir]

Nowhere does it say thatt the image of God is JUST what you say, By your definition you are not in the image because you still sin.

yes God the Father does

Yes

Yep means exactly what it says, simple text, a non sequitur for this argument though

Yep read them all before not one says we do not have a choice

Yep seen them too lets deal with Rom 8:29 first
28.And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

29.For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren

30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified

God foreknew everybody as Acts 17:28 clearly says

The whole of verse 29 is about a people group defined by 'them that love God and are called'. it says nothing about what God does for those that do not love him. He may do something for them too he may not, you cannot tell from these verses. All the predestinate, called, justified glorified are again selected by ' the love god' not necessarily the predestination as Calvinists claim.
Second time I have asked this and I am starting to agree with John Mullally, you don't seEm answer questions on scripture you dont fancy? You just keep copy and pasting scripture links which do not say what you say they do.

The new man in the verses below is related to the spiritual rebirth of those who are conformed to His image (Rom 8:29). To be conformed is to mean that beforehand there was no conformation. Please note there is no mention below of this image being physical but instead spiritual and ethical.

Eph 4:24 and that you put on the new man which was created according to God, in true righteousness and holiness.
Col 3:10 and have put on the new man who is renewed in knowledge according to the image of Him who created him,

Only God the Son became incarnate, not the Father who sent His Son.

As I have previously made plain, all men have a choice but their choice is dependent upon their nature. Therefore a man will only choose what he desires and Christ plainly stated that men love the darkness and hate the light (John 3:19-20), so what makes you think that men would choose that which they hate?

Thank you for being brave enough to discuss the doctrine of predestination but please know that God does not look into the future to see those who choose Him and then step back into eternity and then choose them, for that would be called postdestination and not predestination.

God indeed is omniscient and knows all things and all people but the word foreknow means not to know about, but to know intimately, in the same way that Joseph did not know Mary until Christ was born (Mat 1:25). Christ knew of them who thought they knew Him and trusted in their works as He addressed them in Matthew 7:22-23 but He specifically stated that He did not know them and demanded they depart from Him.

The doctrine of sovereign election is everywhere in Scripture. God chooses people, calls them to Himself, justifies them and glorifies them (Rom 8:30). He chose Abraham, David, Paul etc. because He is a sovereign God and does whatever He wants to do and is described as him being the Potter and we the clay (Rom 9:20-21). The reason given for choosing some unto salvation and not all is found below.

Eph 1:4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love,
Eph 1:5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,
Eph 1:6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved.

Those who are not chosen unto salvation will instead glorify God's perfectly good, holy and righteous justice for all eternity as vessels of dishonour and wrath prepared for destruction (Rom 9:21-22). Those who would say that this is not fair of God, do not want fair because that would be sending every person justly to Hell. Therefore the message to you and to all is to repent and believe on Christ lest you prove yourself to be reprobate.

 

[maxamir]

The T of TULIP means what in your theology? Total Depravity isn't total in intensity, is it? It's said to be total in extent, by which is meant that every faculty of human nature is depraved. So, what's 'depraved'? The idea is to be morally corrupt or to be wicked. So the T means that, every part of human nature is morally corrupt and I imagine one might add tends towards wickedness. Is that the truth? Is it what the scriptures teach about human nature? And is this T applicable to everyone, especially everyone mentioned in holy scripture?

The T is best defined by God Himself in Genesis 6:5. Please tell me on a scale from 1 to 10, where do you think the description "only evil continually" would be?

I would say that man who was originally made in the image and likeness of God and being very good (Gen 1:31), after the Fall is only made in the cursed image of Adam (Gen 5:3), being a slave to sin (Joh 8:34) and Satan (Joh 8:44), his children (1 Jn 3:8-10) and bear his evil image unless they are born again by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone as revealed in the Scriptures alone and to the glory of God alone.

The only person to be born without this curse is Christ Jesus who knew no sin and demonstrated His righteousness by obediently submitting Himself under the law to become a curse for His people so that they could have their sins forgiven and become the righteousness of God in Him (2 Cor 5:21, Gal 3:13) through His vicarious death and resurrection. Believe on Him today while He still gives you breath!

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

The T is best defined by God Himself in Genesis 6:5. Please tell me on a scale from 1 to 10, where do you think the description "only evil continually" would be?

Genesis 6:5 is about people prior to the flood, it is not about everyone who was alive before the flood because Noah and his family are exceptions and were saved from the wicked generation of that time, as the scriptures say, "And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;" (2 Peter 2:5) So, this is not the T of TULIP because it is not universal depravity.

But you asked for a rating on a scale from 1 to 10. Are you asking for an intensity of corruption on this scale? Here's the passage with a little context

And God seeing that the wickedness of men was great on the earth, and that all the thought of their heart was bent upon evil at all times, It repented him that he had made man on the earth. And being touched inwardly with sorrow of heart, He said: I will destroy man, whom I have created, from the face of the earth, from man even to beasts, from the creeping thing even to the fowls of the air, for it repenteth me that I have made them. But Noah found grace before the Lord.​

Genesis 6:5-8
Man and beast are destroyed because God repents of having made them, this is the setting, and Noah and his family are saved from the coming destruction because Noah found grace before the Lord. And that phrase "found grace before the Lord", what does it mean? John Calvin says it means that, "here Noah is declared to have been acceptable to God, because, by living uprightly and homily, he kept himself pure from the common pollutions of the world". Noah did so by grace, of course, but he is not among the ones condemned and hence is not an example of the T of TULIP in this story. Noah is instead an example of godliness.

So, the rating is wicked enough to be judged and that could be anywhere from 1 to 10 depending on the individual, one may speculate that the pre-diluvian people were especially wicked or that they were not so different from people today. It is noteworthy that the animals were also destroyed, so, maybe the punishment is not meted out because of exceptional wickedness.

I would say that man

Yes, you have said that. And the verses you list can be used to construct such a view when taken in isolation from other verses and their own context. But here I will ask what do the scriptures say of Enoch, and of Job, and of Ruth, and Blessed Mary? Are these not held up as shining examples to follow? Consider what the scriptures say of them:

• Hebrews 11:5 By faith, Enoch was transferred, so that he would not see death, and he was not found because God had transferred him. For before he was transferred, he had testimony that he pleased God.
• Job 1:8 And the LORD said to Satan, "Have you considered my servant Job, that there is none like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, who fears God and turns away from evil?"
• Ruth 4:11-12 All the people who were at the gate, along with the eldest, answered, "We are witnesses. May the Lord make this woman, who enters into your house, like Rachel, and Leah, who built up the house of Israel, so that she may be an example of virtue in Ephrathah, and so that her name may be honoured in Bethlehem. 12 And may your house be like the house of Perez, whom Tamar bore to Judah, of the offspring which the Lord will give to you from this young woman."
• Luke 1:28 And upon entering, the Angel said to her: "Hail, full of grace. The Lord is with you. Blessed are you among women." Luke 1:46-49 And Mary said: "My soul magnifies the Lord. 47 And my spirit leaps for joy in God my Saviour. 48 For he has looked with favour on the humility of his handmaid. For behold, from this time, all generations shall call me blessed. 49 For he who is great has done great things for me, and holy is his name.

So, there are people with whom God is well pleased. All such are so by grace, and thus the testimony of scripture is not quite the T of TULIP.

The only person to be born without this curse is Christ Jesus who knew no sin and demonstrated His righteousness

Certainly Jesus is without sin, this is never in dispute with Christians; nevertheless the examples I gave are also examples of righteous people. God called Job blameless.

 

[zoidar]

Calling upon the name of the Lord is the fruit of salvation and not a condition unto salvation. In the same manner, the repentance and faith that God justly commands from all is something which is impossible for man to do in himself, which is why Christ said that a man must first be born again to do so (John 3:3-7).

Mar 10:26 And they were greatly astonished, saying among themselves, "Who then can be saved?"
Mar 10:27 But Jesus looked at them and said, "With men it is impossible, but not with God; for with God all things are possible."

Where does it say you need to first be born again to call on the Lord?

 

[zoidar]

Calling upon the name of the Lord is the fruit of salvation and not a condition unto salvation. In the same manner, the repentance and faith that God justly commands from all is something which is impossible for man to do in himself, which is why Christ said that a man must first be born again to do so (John 3:3-7).

Mar 10:26 And they were greatly astonished, saying among themselves, "Who then can be saved?"
Mar 10:27 But Jesus looked at them and said, "With men it is impossible, but not with God; for with God all things are possible."

Where does it say you need to first be born again to call on the Lord?

 

[maxamir]

Genesis 6:5 is about people prior to the flood, it is not about everyone who was alive before the flood because Noah and his family are exceptions and were saved from the wicked generation of that time, as the scriptures say, "And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;" (2 Peter 2:5) So, this is not the T of TULIP because it is not universal depravity.

But you asked for a rating on a scale from 1 to 10. Are you asking for an intensity of corruption on this scale? Here's the passage with a little context

And God seeing that the wickedness of men was great on the earth, and that all the thought of their heart was bent upon evil at all times, It repented him that he had made man on the earth. And being touched inwardly with sorrow of heart, He said: I will destroy man, whom I have created, from the face of the earth, from man even to beasts, from the creeping thing even to the fowls of the air, for it repenteth me that I have made them. But Noah found grace before the Lord.​

Genesis 6:5-8
Man and beast are destroyed because God repents of having made them, this is the setting, and Noah and his family are saved from the coming destruction because Noah found grace before the Lord. And that phrase "found grace before the Lord", what does it mean? John Calvin says it means that, "here Noah is declared to have been acceptable to God, because, by living uprightly and homily, he kept himself pure from the common pollutions of the world". Noah did so by grace, of course, but he is not among the ones condemned and hence is not an example of the T of TULIP in this story. Noah is instead an example of godliness.

So, the rating is wicked enough to be judged and that could be anywhere from 1 to 10 depending on the individual, one may speculate that the pre-diluvian people were especially wicked or that they were not so different from people today. It is noteworthy that the animals were also destroyed, so, maybe the punishment is not meted out because of exceptional wickedness.

Yes, you have said that. And the verses you list can be used to construct such a view when taken in isolation from other verses and their own context. But here I will ask what do the scriptures say of Enoch, and of Job, and of Ruth, and Blessed Mary? Are these not held up as shining examples to follow? Consider what the scriptures say of them:

• Hebrews 11:5 By faith, Enoch was transferred, so that he would not see death, and he was not found because God had transferred him. For before he was transferred, he had testimony that he pleased God.
• Job 1:8 And the LORD said to Satan, "Have you considered my servant Job, that there is none like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, who fears God and turns away from evil?"
• Ruth 4:11-12 All the people who were at the gate, along with the eldest, answered, "We are witnesses. May the Lord make this woman, who enters into your house, like Rachel, and Leah, who built up the house of Israel, so that she may be an example of virtue in Ephrathah, and so that her name may be honoured in Bethlehem. 12 And may your house be like the house of Perez, whom Tamar bore to Judah, of the offspring which the Lord will give to you from this young woman."
• Luke 1:28 And upon entering, the Angel said to her: "Hail, full of grace. The Lord is with you. Blessed are you among women." Luke 1:46-49 And Mary said: "My soul magnifies the Lord. 47 And my spirit leaps for joy in God my Saviour. 48 For he has looked with favour on the humility of his handmaid. For behold, from this time, all generations shall call me blessed. 49 For he who is great has done great things for me, and holy is his name.

So, there are people with whom God is well pleased. All such are so by grace, and thus the testimony of scripture is not quite the T of TULIP.


Certainly Jesus is without sin, this is never in dispute with Christians; nevertheless the examples I gave are also examples of righteous people. God called Job blameless.

You fail to recognise that grace means to get what you do not deserve. No body born under the curse deserves mercy from God but God grants it to whomever He pleases and the remnant of eight that were saved from God's wrath in the Ark is a picture of Christ who came to secure salvation for those to whom God was pleased to save and not according to anything they had done as you assume.

Tit 3:5 not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit,
Tit 3:6 whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior,
Tit 3:7 that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,
Eph 2:9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.

Abraham and all the others you mentioned were justified before God not by works they had done but by the faith that was granted to them as a gift of grace. The righteous works that people do justify that their faith is genuine before men (Jas 2:17-18) but only grace justifies people before God (Rom 3:24).

Grace would not be grace if man could do anything to earn it and it is only the remnant that receive it who are called the elect.

Rom 11:5 Even so then, at this present time there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
Rom 11:6 And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work.

Sadly, you do not see the total depravity of man because you have not yet seen the wickedness of your own heart to understand this grace and are still under the curse of the law seeking to build up your own self-righteousness before a God who demands perfection from all.

 

[maxamir]

Where does it say you need to first be born again to call on the Lord?

How can you call on the Lord and see His kingdom if you can not see it?

Joh 3:3 Jesus answered and said to him, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."

Only those who are predestined, will hear and obey the call and be justified by grace.

Rom 8:30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

 

[zoidar]

How can you call on the Lord and see His kingdom if you can not see it?

Joh 3:3 Jesus answered and said to him, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."

Only those who are predestined, will hear and obey the call and be justified by grace.

Rom 8:30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

You don't see the kingdom of God unless you have entered it. And you can't enter it without "calling on the name of the Lord".

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

@maxamir thanks for your messages. I shall bow out of the conversation with you on this matter.

 

[maxamir]

You don't see the kingdom of God unless you have entered it. And you can't enter it without "calling on the name of the Lord".

You don't see the kingdom of God unless God gives you eyes to see and no one will call on the name of the Lord until they are first born again. Just like the dry dead bones in Ezekiel 37 could not do anything until God first caused them to have life so that they may know He was the Lord.

Eze 37:5 Thus says the Lord GOD to these bones: "Surely I will cause breath to enter into you, and you shall live.
Eze 37:6 I will put sinews on you and bring flesh upon you, cover you with skin and put breath in you; and you shall live. Then you shall know that I am the LORD." ' "

You had no choice in your birth and you have no choice in being born again but those who God causes to be born again will know and gratefully submit to His sovereign will.

Eze 36:26 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will take the heart of stone out of your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.
Eze 36:27 I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will keep My judgments and do them.

God commands everyone to repent and believe on Christ but this is only possible if they are spiritually born again.

Joh 3:7 Do not marvel that I said to you, 'You must be born again.'

Cry out to God today to give you new heart!

 

[maxamir]

@maxamir thanks for your messages. I shall bow out of the conversation with you on this matter.

I will keep you in my prayers.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

I will keep you in my prayers.

Thanks, that is kind of you. You too are in my prayer.

 

[zoidar]

You don't see the kingdom of God unless God gives you eyes to see and no one will call on the name of the Lord until they are first born again. Just like the dry dead bones in Ezekiel 37 could not do anything until God first caused them to have life so that they may know He was the Lord.

Eze 37:5 Thus says the Lord GOD to these bones: "Surely I will cause breath to enter into you, and you shall live.
Eze 37:6 I will put sinews on you and bring flesh upon you, cover you with skin and put breath in you; and you shall live. Then you shall know that I am the LORD." ' "

You had no choice in your birth and you have no choice in being born again but those who God causes to be born again will know and gratefully submit to His sovereign will.

Eze 36:26 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will take the heart of stone out of your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.
Eze 36:27 I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will keep My judgments and do them.

God commands everyone to repent and believe on Christ but this is only possible if they are spiritually born again.

Joh 3:7 Do not marvel that I said to you, 'You must be born again.'

Cry out to God today to give you new heart!

You are not allowed on this forum to imply someone is not born again.

When I was born again the 21th of June 2010 I was full of love and thankfulness to Jesus because he had forgiven me. I was eager to live for him. I don't know what you mean by gratefully submitting to His sovereign will, sounds like a theological term.

To use the vision from Ezekiel to show we are born again before we call on the Lord, is just as bad of a proof as using the story of Jesus resurrecting Lazarus as a proof, since none of these stories deal with the concept of being born again.