WHY THE LORD'S DAY IS NOT SATURDAY

[HIM]

What is your point, exactly? I guess these possible points:
a) You believe that the heaven and earth passing Jesus mentioned is something literal and still in the future
b) You believe that Jesus instructions to Jews before his death and resurrection apply still today (I noticed you had quite a hard time to find any instruction regarding keeping the Sabbath, though, you found only the opposite)
c) You believe that the Law given to Jews was given to the whole world

Is it so? If its so, you may try to prove it.

Heaven and earth are still here. All has not been fulfilled. Jesus has not returned to establish the new heaven and earth. And the Kingdom has not been placed back into the Father's hands.

 

[HIM]

Or it is and ignored it so they grieved the Spirit away in that respect.

The Sabbath as to which day has been an issue for some time, but In the Christian community the Decalogue was never in question until the beginning of the last century. Now look, it is a make as you will.

 

[Leaf473]

Matthew 5: Not to destroy.

17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.​

18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.​

19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.​

20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.​

​

Notes:​

1. What's the opposite of destroy? Antonyms of destroy: build, reconstruct, preserve, restore, raise
2. Not one jot or tittle pretty much negates any change in the law whatsoever.
3. Keep the commandments and teach others to keep them.
4. Nowhere do we see Jesus negating any commandment of the Ten. Instead, we see the law upheld.

Matthew 12: Sabbath observance vs tradition.

1 At that time Jesus went on the sabbath day through the corn; and his disciples were an hungred, and began to pluck the ears of corn and to eat.​

2 But when the Pharisees saw it, they said unto him, Behold, thy disciples do that which is not lawful to do upon the sabbath day.​

3 But he said unto them, Have ye not read what David did, when he was an hungred, and they that were with him;​

4 How he entered into the house of God, and did eat the shewbread, which was not lawful for him to eat, neither for them which were with him, but only for the priests?​

5 Or have ye not read in the law, how that on the sabbath days the priests in the temple profane the sabbath, and are blameless?​

6 But I say unto you, That in this place is one greater than the temple.​

7 But if ye had known what this meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice, ye would not have condemned the guiltless.​

8 For the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day.​

​

Notes:​

1. Jesus makes it a point to call Himself Lord of the Sabbath day.
2. If Jesus is Lord of the Sabbath, then He has utmost authority concerning the Sabbath.
3. Nowhere do we see Jesus negating any commandment of the Ten. Instead, we see the law upheld.

Matthew 15: Commandment observance vs tradition.

3 But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?​

​

Notes:​

1. Transgression of the commandment of God = commandments are still binding.
2. This is an important lesson for those who would put tradition over the word of God.
   1. Sunday is not commanded anywhere in scripture, thus it is a tradition of men.
   2. Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?
3. Nowhere do we see Jesus negating any commandment of the Ten. Instead, we see the law upheld.

Matthew 19: Commandment keeping and love combined.

16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?​

17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.​

18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,​

19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.​

20 The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet?​

​

Notes:​

1. Jesus said keep the commandments, an all encompassing statement. He is referring to the Ten Commandments, as we see in the next verse when He quotes the Ten Commandments.
2. Jesus only quoting four of the Ten does not negate the other six, especially considering the fact that Jesus observed the Sabbath in life and death, and taught commandment observance.
3. Jesus is quoting the Old Testament. Exodus 20 (Ten Commandments), Leviticus 19:18 (love your neighbor). These were not new concepts.
4. Nowhere do we see Jesus negating any commandment of the Ten. Instead, we see the law upheld.

Matthew 22: All the law and the prophets hang on love.

On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.​

​

Notes:​

1. All the law and the prophets hang on love.
2. Nowhere do we see Jesus negating any commandment of the Ten. Instead, we see the law upheld.

Revelation 22: Commandment keeping upheld.

14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.​

15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.​

-​

15 (Amplified) Outside are the dogs [the godless, the impure, those of low moral character] and the sorcerers [with their intoxicating drugs, and magic arts], and the immoral persons [the perverted, the molesters, and the adulterers], and the murderers, and the idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices lying (deception, cheating).​

​

Notes:​

1. Do his commandments.
2. Conditional to the tree of life and entering the city.
3. Outside the city are sinners who break the Ten Commandments (murder, idolatry, bearing false witness) and practice abominations to God.
4. Nowhere do we see Jesus negating any commandment of the Ten. Instead, we see the law upheld.

Conclusion

Keep the commandments of God, as Jesus taught throughout His ministry and from heaven. The Ten Commandments, of which includes the Sabbath commandment—the one that says remember and to keep holy.

Heaven and earth are still here. All has not been fulfilled. Jesus has not returned to establish the new heaven and earth. And the Kingdom has not been placed back into the Father's hands.

You guys are both bright, so I'm trying to figure out how this works in your minds.

The line of reasoning presented would apply to the entire law. Yet I think we all agree that some things have passed from the law, such as animal sacrifices.

Animal sacrifices have passed from the law, yet the physical heaven and Earth are still here.

How does that work in your minds?

 

[HIM]

You guys are both bright, so I'm trying to figure out how this works in your minds.

The line of reasoning presented would apply to the entire law. Yet I think we all agree that some things have passed from the law, such as animal sacrifices.

Animal sacrifices have passed from the law, yet the physical heaven and Earth are still here.

How does that work in your minds?

Context does not allow for that. And there is a difference between laws, statutes and judgments.

 

[trophy33]

You guys are both bright, so I'm trying to figure out how this works in your minds.

The line of reasoning presented would apply to the entire law. Yet I think we all agree that some things have passed from the law, such as animal sacrifices.

Animal sacrifices have passed from the law, yet the physical heaven and Earth are still here.

How does that work in your minds?

They run from place to place, but in the end, they will finish with something like "Only the 10 commandments are the Law, the rest is something else".

Which is not biblical, of course, and can be debunked in seconds. But they have no other choice, when forced to say it clearly. Thats why they stay in being vague and unclear.

 

[Leaf473]

Context does not allow for that. And there is a difference between laws, statutes and judgments.

Do you mean that Jesus is saying that he didn't come to destroy some of the laws and some of the prophets? And that until heaven and Earth pass away, some of the jots and tittles will not pass away?

 

[Leaf473]

As I understand it, "the law and the prophets" is how people at that time referred to what we call the Old Testament.

Acts 13:15
After the reading of the law and the prophets, the rulers of the synagogue sent to them, saying, “Brothers, if you have any word of exhortation for the people, speak.”

This link may be helpful,

BibleGateway - Keyword Search: Law prophets

www.biblegateway.com

 

[HIM]

Do you mean that Jesus is saying that he didn't come to destroy some of the laws and some of the prophets? And that until heaven and Earth pass away, some of the jots and tittles will not pass away?

No, I mean nothing. The context of the passage does not support what you are purporting.

 

[Leaf473]

No, I mean nothing. The context of the passage does not support what you are purporting.

Also from the sermon on the Mount

Matthew 7:12
Therefore, whatever you desire for men to do to you, you shall also do to them; for this is the law and the prophets.

If you take that to refer only to laws, and not statutes, judgments, ordinances, or commandments, then
thanks
That answers my question of how it works in your mind.

Peace be with you, my friend!

 

[HIM]

Also from the sermon on the Mount

Matthew 7:12
Therefore, whatever you desire for men to do to you, you shall also do to them; for this is the law and the prophets.

If you take that to refer only to laws, and not statutes, judgments, ordinances, or commandments, then
thanks
That answers my question of how it works in your mind.

Peace be with you, my friend!

The context of the passage in it's entirety.

 

[expos4ever]

Heaven and earth are still here. All has not been fulfilled. Jesus has not returned to establish the new heaven and earth. And the Kingdom has not been placed back into the Father's hands.

I will repeat an argument I have made many, many time and which I believe has never been challenged (often this argument is all too conveniently ignored by those who believe the Law is still in force):

There is a way to faithfully read Matt 5:17-18 and still claim that Law of Moses was retired 2000 years ago. In Hebrew culture, “end of the world” language was commonly used metaphorically to invest commonplace events with theological significance.

This is not mere speculation – we have concrete evidence. Isaiah writes:

10For the stars of heaven and their constellations
Will not flash forth their light;
The sun will be dark when it rises
And the moon will not shed its light

What was going on? Babylon was being destroyed, never to be rebuilt. There are other examples of use of “end of the world” imagery to describe much more “mundane” events within the present space-time manifold.

So it is possible that Jesus is not referring to the destruction of matter, space, and time as the criteria for the retirement of the Law. But what might He mean here? What is the real event for which “heaven and earth passing away” is an apocalyptic metaphor?

It is Jesus’ death on the Cross where He proclaims “It is accomplished”. Note how this dovetails perfectly with the 5:18 declaration that the Law would remain until all is accomplished. Seeing things this way allows us to honour the established tradition of metaphorical end-of-the-world imagery and to take Paul at his word in his many statements which clearly denote the work of Jesus as the point in time at which Law of Moses was retired.

 

[HIM]

I will repeat an argument I have made many, many time and which I believe has never been challenged (often this argument is all too conveniently ignored by those who believe the Law is still in force):

There is a way to faithfully read Matt 5:17-18 and still claim that Law of Moses was retired 2000 years ago. In Hebrew culture, “end of the world” language was commonly used metaphorically to invest commonplace events with theological significance.

it was not said in the post you responded to the law was still in force as you imply. And it is not Matt 5:17,18 that needs faithfully read it is the sermon in it's entirity.

 

[expos4ever]

So can something set apart holy by God end up being unsanctified not lasting?

I believe so, yes. Consider the tent of meeting from the book of Genesis (or was it Exodus). Anyway, that tent was certainly "sanctified" by God and yet God later does away with it.

 

[expos4ever]

it was not said in the post you responded to the law was still in force as you imply.

Your post to which I was responding was itself a response to another poster who had written this:

b) You believe that Jesus instructions to Jews before his death and resurrection apply still today (I noticed you had quite a hard time to find any instruction regarding keeping the Sabbath, though, you found only the opposite)

It seems reasonable to me to conclude that your post challenged this claim - that you believe at least some of the Law of Moses remains in force. If I am mistaken in this attribution, please let me know.

Either way, my argument is what it is - an as yet unchallenged argument that, despite appearances to the contrary, Matt 5 does not force us to conclude that the Law remains in force until the end of the world.

And it is not Matt 5:17,18 that needs faithfully read it is the sermon in it's entirity.

Well, please go ahead and make your case, or point me to posts where you have done so.

 

[Leaf473]

The context of the passage in it's entirety.

Right, if you take the context of the passage in its entirety to refer only to laws, and not statutes, judgments, ordinances, or commandments, then thanks,
I feel like I understand how this works in your thinking

Peace be with you, my friend

 

[eleos1954]

...Because that's reserved for the Sabbath.

Comments and criticisms are welcomed.

Jesus is Lord of the Sabbath ..... (He's not the Lord of nothing) .... Jesus kept the 7th day Sabbath and we are called to follow in His steps.

Peter said, “Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps” (1 Pet. 2:21)

 

[BeyondET]

I believe so, yes. Consider the tent of meeting from the book of Genesis (or was it Exodus). Anyway, that tent was certainly "sanctified" by God and yet God later does away with it.

In a since it has, no particular day is needed, for the Sabbath is Today.

Romans 4

6Since, then, it remains for some to enter His rest, and since those who formerly heard the good news did not enter because of their disobedience, 7God again designated a certain day as “Today,” when a long time later He spoke through David as was just stated: “Today, if you hear His voice, do not harden your hearts.”
8For if Joshua had given them rest, God would not have spoken later about another day.

9There remains, then, a Sabbath rest for the people of God.

10For whoever enters God’s rest also rests from his own work, just as God did from His. 11Let us, therefore, make every effort to enter that rest, so that no one will fall by following the same pattern of disobedience.

 

[expos4ever]

No, I mean nothing. The context of the passage does not support what you are purporting.

Can you please answer the question that Leaf posed to you. Here it is again:

Do you mean that Jesus is saying that he didn't come to destroy some of the laws and some of the prophets? And that until heaven and Earth pass away, some of the jots and tittles will not pass away?

I believe the question is well posed and clear enough to enable you to answer. Or even if you do not like the question, I will ask my own version. I assume (correct me if I am wrong) that you believe (a) that some elements of the Law of Moses remain in force and while others are no longer in force; and (b) that "all has not been accomplished yet". If that is indeed your position, please explain how you reconcile that view with this statement of Jesus:

For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not [g]the smallest letter or stroke of a letter shall pass from the Law, until all is accomplished!

It seems to me difficult to support the view that I assume you hold (see above) with this statement from Jesus - it seems impossible, given what Jesus says (above), to hold the view that some parts of the Law have been done away already since, per my assumption about what you believe, not all has been accomplished yet.

 

[expos4ever]

Jesus is Lord of the Sabbath ..... (He's not the Lord of nothing) .... Jesus kept the 7th day Sabbath and we are called to follow in His steps.

I disagree - I believe Jesus intentionally broke the Sabbath as a way of signalling that the Law of Moses was coming to an end. Consider this from Matthew

At that time Jesus went through the grainfields on the Sabbath, and His disciples became hungry and began to pick the heads of grain and eat. 2 Now when the Pharisees saw this, they said to Him, “Look, Your disciples are doing what is not lawful to do on a Sabbath!

Now I am aware that Jesus "defends" His actions and at least appears to claim innocence. Those, like you, who believe the Sabbath is still in force understandably argue, not least based on Jesus's explanation, that He is not breaking the Sabbath. Fair enough. But look at this from Exodus 16:

Now on the sixth day they gathered twice as much bread, [o]two omers for each one. When all the leaders of the congregation came and told Moses, 23 then he said to them, “This is what the Lord [p]meant: Tomorrow is a Sabbath observance, a holy Sabbath to the Lord. Bake what you will bake and boil what you will boil, and all that is left over [q]put aside to be kept until morning.” 24 So they put it aside until morning, as Moses had ordered, and it did not stink nor was there a maggot in it. 25 Then Moses said, “Eat it today, for today is a Sabbath to the Lord; today you will not find it in the field. 26 Six days you shall gather it, but on the seventh day, the Sabbath, there will be [r]none.”

It certainly seems that "being hungry" is no excuse for violating the Sabbath. Or, putting in another way, if, as required by Exodus, there was to be no gathering of manna on the Sabbath, it seems hard to imagine how it would be defensible for Jesus to pick grains on the Sabbath.

In any event, I think there are a myriad of other Biblical reasons to believe the Sabbath is now no longer in force even if this argument of mine is not convincing.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

In a since it has, no particular day is needed, for the Sabbath is Today.

Romans 4

6Since, then, it remains for some to enter His rest, and since those who formerly heard the good news did not enter because of their disobedience, 7God again designated a certain day as “Today,” when a long time later He spoke through David as was just stated: “Today, if you hear His voice, do not harden your hearts.”
8For if Joshua had given them rest, God would not have spoken later about another day.

9There remains, then, a Sabbath rest for the people of God.

10For whoever enters God’s rest also rests from his own work, just as God did from His. 11Let us, therefore, make every effort to enter that rest, so that no one will fall by following the same pattern of disobedience.

Can you please point out where it says the Sabbath is “today” and contradicts God where God said the Sabbath is the seventh day Exodus 20:10 Hebrews does not say the Sabbath is today and the author of Hebrews knows we are not supposed to add or subtract from the commandments Deut 4:2. The law of God is perfect Psalms 19:7 so no changes needed or allowed. Proverbs 30:5-6

What Hebrews 4 does says is “Today” if you hear His voice do not harden your heart Hebrews 4:7

Which the author is quoting David from Psalms 95. The author is also warning about being disobedient to God Hebrews 4:6 and in particular the Sabbath Ezekiel 20:13 Which we are not to follow the same path of disobedience. Hebrews 4:11 Let us therefore be diligent to enter that rest, lest anyone fall according to the same example of disobedience And we must cease our works the way God did from His Hebrews 4:10 on the seventh day Hebrews 4:4 which is from the foundation of the world Genesis 2:1-3