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WHY THE LORD'S DAY IS NOT SATURDAY

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SabbathBlessings

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You know, SB,
(And I see you've written a response to me that I haven't read yet :) )
Did you say that you grew up keeping a seventh day Sabbath? If so, you may have been around this thinking for so long that you don't realize how forced it sounds to those who are just exploring those teachings.

Just something to consider ❤️
I love you, my sister.
No different than only worshipping God or using His name in a sacred way. Spending time with God on His holy day certainly does not seem forced to me, but only the blessing He promises Isaiah 58:13-14. Obeying God is love to Him 1 John 5:3 and sometimes when people don't want to obey its a love problem, God can help with that if we ask Him and really want to obey Him. I grew up keeping the Sabbath, fell away for a long time, thankfully I heard God's voice when He called me and convicted me of disobeying Him and it changed my life only for the better.
 
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Leaf473

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You would have to prove the Sabbath is not one of God's commandments to make this argument work, when God said it is. Exodus 20:6

I am not going further down this rabbit hole with you as we have done this too many times.
No, there is another option:

I can agree that the Sabbath is one of God's Commandments, but at the same time point to other Commandments that we do not keep.

So, the connection between Revelation 14 and Exodus 20 remains to be established.

 
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trophy33

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how innexplicable then - this post


Are you arguing for "The nine commandments" even though James 2 says - to break one is to break them all? Is that your argument - no matter what the Bible says?

Are you arguing for editing one of the Ten Commandments??

Are you claiming that all the other members here posting in favor of the Bible Sabbath "don't exist" because they are not SDA and yet they affirm the Bible Sabbath??
I am claiming:
1. Gentiles have never been given the Mosaic Law (such giving is never found in the Bible)
2. Christians have never been given the Mosaic Law (such giving is never found in the Bible)
3. Jews were given the Mosaic Law only till Christ (Letter to Galatians)

Moral laws, i.e. for example the 9 of 10 commandments are also in Christianity.

The 4th commandment of the 10 commandments is not for Christians, because its a physical observance of a day, nothing moral or universal or Christian about it.
 
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SabbathBlessings

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No, there is another option:

I can agree that the Sabbath is one of God's Commandments, but at the same time point to other Commandments that we do not keep.

So, the connection between Revelation 14 and Exodus 20 remains to be established.

There is no scripture that says we do not need to keep the Sabbath commandment and your reference certainly does not say that. I appreciate you pulling me back in to the same discussion I asked not to be pulled into after three years of discussing and getting nowhere. I would like for you to respect this request, but still wish you well.
 
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BobRyan

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I am claiming:
1. Gentiles have never been given the Mosaic Law
So it was always ok for gentiles to take God's name in vain and worship false gods?
So Paul is wrong in Rom 3:19-20 that all the world is condemned under the LAW of God?? seriously?
So Is 56:6-8 specifically singling out gentiles for Sabbath observance - never existed?
So Is 66:23 saying that ALL MANKIND is to worship God " from Sabbath to Sabbath" was never written?
(such giving is never found in the Bible)
Well... hmm.. I beg to differ.
The 4th commandment of the 10 commandments is not for Christians,
So Christians are not part of mankind? ("the Sabbath was MADE for mankind" Mark 2:27.
So Christians are not included in "mankind" in Is 66:23 either.

I beg to differ.

because its a physical observance of a day, nothing moral or universal or Christian about it.
So obedience to God, worship to God "If you Love Me KEEP My Commandments" is not moral ??

do you think it is "just a fluke" that almost all Christian scholarship in almost all Christian denominations on planet Earth differ with you on that one? Christians on BOTH sides of the Sabbath debate???

Seriously??
 
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Leaf473

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"The first commandment with a promise - is Honor your Father and mother" Eph 6:2 - which is only true within the TEN and we both know it.

Matt 19 Jesus said "KEEP the Commandments" and he only quotes from the Law of Moses in the TEN Commandments plus Lev 19:18 and we both know it.

Rom 13 Paul only quotes from the TEN Commandments and Lev 19:18 and we both know it.

Jer 31:31-34 "The LAW of God written on the heart" under the NEW Covenant - includes the TEN Commandments as Jeremiah and his readers knew because in Deut 5:22 "HE spoke the TEN Words and ADDED NO MORE" and we both know it.
Jesus also gave Commandments, Revelation 14 could be referring to them.
sounds more like you are holding the Bible at such a distance that no matter how many times these inconvenient Bible details are mentioned to you - they get ignored and then you post as if you are not reading the content of the discussion... again.
Of course it sounds that way to you, I understand that :heart:

And you're right, I'm not reading every single word of posts that appear to be largely the same.
 
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BobRyan

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Jesus also gave Commandments, Revelation 14 could be referring to them.
Rev 14 is specific "Commandments of God" 14:12 -
Deut 5:22 is very specific "God spoke the TEN and added NO MORE"
Jer 31:31-34 specifically says it is those commands in the LAW of God known to Jeremiah and his readers, that are included in the NEW Covenant "LAW of God written on the heart" --

You see? Context matters just when you insist that it does not.
Of course it sounds that way to you, I understand that :heart:

And D.L. Moody?
And the Baptist confession of faith section 19?
And the Westminster Confession of Faith - section 19?
And the Catholic Catechism on the TEN Commandments?
Is there a point where you address the many inconvenient facts listed ?

And you're right, I'm not reading every single word of posts

You have said that many times.

IT shows
 
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Leaf473

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No different than only worshipping God or using His name in a sacred way.
What is no different than those two things?
Spending time with God on His holy day certainly does not seem forced to me, but only the blessing He promises Isaiah 58:13-14.
We're talking about interpretations of the scriptures, not whether particular actions feel forced.
Obeying God is love to Him 1 John 5:3 and sometimes when people don't want to obey its a love problem, God can help with that if we ask Him and really want to obey Him.
Absolutely! And what we're discussing here is which instructions to keep and how we go about keeping them.
I grew up keeping the Sabbath, fell away for a long time, thankfully I heard God's voice when He called me and convicted me of disobeying Him and it changed my life only for the better.
I'm glad you got back on track!

I heard a very similar story from someone who grew up as a Jehovah's Witness, fell away, and now believes that God called them back.

In your case when you say you fell away, do you mean you just stopped keeping the seventh day Sabbath, and lived as most Christians do?

Or do you mean you fell away from God and didn't want to do the things of God?
 
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Leaf473

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There is no scripture that says we do not need to keep the Sabbath commandment and your reference certainly does not say that.
It's not intended to. What it says is that there are Commandments of God that we do not keep today. So again, the alleged connection between Revelation 14 and Exodus 20 is not yet established.
I appreciate you pulling me back in to the same discussion I asked not to be pulled into after three years of discussing and getting nowhere. I would like for you to respect this request, but still wish you well.
You appreciate it? Or you do not appreciate it?

It was your choice to respond to me in particular. True, I have been making general posts that relate to your posts. But you could have responded with general posts as well.

I don't think we can make a rule here on CF that says user X is not allowed to respond to my posts in any way.

Anyways, again, I'm glad you're back on track with following God. And may the peace of the Lord be always with you :)

 
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Leaf473

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Rev 14 is specific "Commandments of God"
A commandment given by Jesus would qualify as a commandment of God imo.
14:12 -
Deut 5:22 is very specific "God spoke the TEN and added NO MORE"
Jer 31:31-34 specifically says it is those commands in the LAW of God known to Jeremiah and his readers, that are included in the NEW Covenant "LAW of God written on the heart" --
Yes, that would be the entire law of God written on our hearts. I agree with that.
You see? Context matters just when you insist that it does not.
I believe that context matters. What leads you to believe that I don't?
And D.L. Moody?
And the Baptist confession of faith section 19?
And the Westminster Confession of Faith - section 19?
And the Catholic Catechism on the TEN Commandments?
Those people haven't read my posts, so they wouldn't think that I am "holding the Bible at such a distance..." as you believe I am.
Is there a point where you address the many inconvenient facts listed ?
Present a fact you wish me to address, and I will be happy to address it :heart:
You have said that many times.

IT shows
I'm glad you are reading my posts.
 
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BobRyan

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A commandment given by Jesus would qualify as a commandment of God

In the NT the "Commandments of God" phrase always includes - the "Commandments of God" where "he spoke these ten words and added no more" Deut 5:22

Notice in Rom 7 when Paul brings up the LAW - he reminds the reader that it says "do not covet".

When James 2 brings up the Law - he reminds the reader that it says "do not murder".

In all cases - direct quotes from the TEN.

Heb 8:6-12 Paul reminds us - that it is Jesus speaking at Sinai,

Still "he spoke these ten words and added no more" Deut 5:22
.

imo.

Yes, that would be the entire law of God written on our hearts. I agree with that.
So when you see "He spoke these ten words and added no more" you view that as all the Law and the prophets?? really
 
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expos4ever

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If the Sabbath goes all of God's commandments go because God said, we cannot add or subtract to His commandments Duet 4:2.
So why are you not offering burnt sacrifices for your sins?

Before you answer "because the New Testament says those requirements have been done away with", please know I will respond thusly: "I thought your argument was that we cannot subtract from His Commandments".
 
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SabbathBlessings

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So why are you not offering burnt sacrifices for your sins?

Before you answer "because the New Testament says those requirements have been done away with", please know I will respond thusly: "I thought your argument was that we cannot subtract from His Commandments".
Burnt offerings is not part of the Ten Commandments and not everything is a commandment. Burnt offerings are part of the ordinances handwritten by Moses that was added after the fall of man for the forgiveness of sin, which is breaking God's law 1 John 3:4, Romans 7:7 and ended at the cross Col 2:14-17, Hebrews 10:1-10 when Jesus became our sacrificial Lamb for the forgiveness of sin when we have a change of heart and turn to Him and repent.
 
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expos4ever

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In Context - God's Law applies to 'all the world' -- "Everyone with a mouth" -- according to Paul in Rom 3.

Rom 3:19-20
19 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. 20 Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

Paul calls this - "the commandments of God" - "what matters is keeping the Commandments of God" 1 Cor 7:19
Like SB, you, of course, evade. Your argument here is dubious, but I will deal with that in later post.

How do you justify evading a clear and meaningful question?

Just answer the question, please:

Consider this very abstract, general statement:

We maintain that a person's justification has nothing to do with engaging in behaviour X; or is justification only for group A? Is not justification also available to group B as well? Yes, justification is available to both groups A and B.

It is an undeniable fact of logic that this block of text, as unit, logically forces us to conclude that only group A is able to engage in behaviour X.

End of discussion - how can anyone deny this? If it were the case that group B could engage in behaviour X, then justification would indeed be available to them and there would be no need to even raise the connection between justification and engaging in behaviour X in the first place!
 
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expos4ever

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Burnt offerings is not part of the Ten Commandments and not everything is a commandment. Burnt offerings are part of the ordinances handwritten by Moses that was added after the fall of man for the forgiveness of sin, which is breaking God's law 1 John 3:4, Romans 7:7 and ended at the cross Col 2:14-17, Hebrews 10:1-10 when Jesus became our sacrificial Lamb for the forgiveness of sin when we have a change of heart and turn to Him and repent.
Here is Deuteronomy 4:2;

You shall not add to the word which I am commanding you, nor take away from it, so that you may keep the commandments of the Lord your God which I am commanding you

Now then, where does Deut 4:2 restrict the scope of what we are not to "subtract" to the 10 commandments? The burnt offerings are ordered by God, so how are they not commandments? Are you seriously suggesting that they are not commandments because they were "handwritten" by Moses?

Here is something from Exodus:

10 “Then you shall bring the bull in front of the tent of meeting, and Aaron and his sons shall lay their hands on the head of the bull. 11 And you shall slaughter the bull before the Lord at the doorway of the tent of meeting. 12 Then you shall take some of the blood of the bull and put it on the horns of the altar with your finger; and you shall pour out all the rest of the blood at the base of the altar. 13 And you shall take all the fat that covers the entrails, and the [f]lobe of the liver, and the two kidneys and the fat that is on them, and offer them up in smoke on the altar. 14 But the flesh of the bull and its hide and its refuse, you shall burn with fire outside the camp; it is a sin offering.

Whose words are these? Moses? Aaron?

No - there are the words of God. If God says "do X", how is that not a command?

To the neutral reader, it will certainly seem that you are trying to have your cake and eat it - you want to include the 10 commandments within the implications of Deut 4:2, but you also have to exclude the burnt offerings.

How do you justify such selectivity? Are you going to concede what I have proven in this post: if you are going to invoke Deuteronomy 4:2 to argue that we cannot subtract out the Sabbath, you also cannot subtract out the sin offerings - they are both commandments from God.

You have to know this (now at least), but I am sure you will dance. Just as you danced away from the argument about Romans 3:28-29.
 
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BobRyan

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Like SB, you, of course, evade. Your argument here is dubious, but I will deal with that in later post.

How do you justify evading a clear and meaningful question?

Just answer the question, please:

Consider this very abstract, general statement:

We maintain that a person's justification has nothing to do with engaging in behaviour X; or is justification only for group A? Is not justification also available to group B as well? Yes, justification is available to both groups A and B.

It is an undeniable fact of logic that this block of text, as unit, logically forces us to conclude that only group A is able to engage in behaviour X.

End of discussion - how can anyone deny this? If it were the case that group B could engage in behaviour X, then justification would indeed be available to them and there would be no need to even raise the connection between justification and engaging in behaviour X in the first place!
As even John MacArthur notes we are "Saved by grace Eph 2:8-10" and "Judged by works" 2 Cor 5:10, Rom 2:4-16. This is irrefutable.
 
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SabbathBlessings

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Here is Deuteronomy 4:2;

You shall not add to the word which I am commanding you, nor take away from it, so that you may keep the commandments of the Lord your God which I am commanding you

Now then, where does Deut 4:2 restrict the scope of what we are not to "subtract" to the 10 commandments?
It's not restricting but it most certainly includes. Seriously, what man could possibly improve on something God personally spoke and personally wrote with His own finger and in doing so would make them above God.

What many fail to understand is the earthy temple was an exact replica of God's Heavenly Temple Hebrews 8:5 God's Holy Commandments are in the ark of the covenant and are revealed in heaven Revelation 11:19 and what the earthy temple was modeled after exactly, so what God wrote and God spoke and placed in the ark of the covenant in the Most Holy of His temple is exactly what is in heaven unchanged.

The burnt offerings are ordered by God, so how are they not commandments? Are you seriously suggesting that they are not commandments because they were "handwritten" by Moses?
I am not suggesting this, scripture is....

Neh 9:13 “You came down also on Mount Sinai, And spoke with them from heaven, And gave them just ordinances and true laws, Good statutes and commandments.

Exodus 12:43 And the Lord said to Moses and Aaron, “This is the ordinance of the Passover:
Ezekiel 43:18 And He said to me, “Son of man, thus says the Lord God: ‘These are the ordinances for the altar on the day when it is made, for sacrificing burnt offerings on it, and for sprinkling blood on it.

Here is something from Exodus:

10 “Then you shall bring the bull in front of the tent of meeting, and Aaron and his sons shall lay their hands on the head of the bull. 11 And you shall slaughter the bull before the Lord at the doorway of the tent of meeting. 12 Then you shall take some of the blood of the bull and put it on the horns of the altar with your finger; and you shall pour out all the rest of the blood at the base of the altar. 13 And you shall take all the fat that covers the entrails, and the [f]lobe of the liver, and the two kidneys and the fat that is on them, and offer them up in smoke on the altar. 14 But the flesh of the bull and its hide and its refuse, you shall burn with fire outside the camp; it is a sin offering.

Whose words are these? Moses? Aaron?

No - there are the words of God. If God says "do X", how is that not a command?
It's an ordinances and this was after the fall of man because man broke God's law and sinned. This is for the forgiveness of sin which pointed to Jesus.
To the neutral reader, it will certainly seem that you are trying to have your cake and eat it - you want to include the 10 commandments within the implications of Deut 4:2, but you also have to exclude the burnt offerings.
Because its not a commandment as clearly shown through the scripture
How do you justify such selectivity? Are you going to concede what I have proven in this post: if you are going to invoke Deuteronomy 4:2 to argue that we cannot subtract out the Sabbath, you also cannot subtract out the sin offerings - they are both commandments from God.
The sin offerings pointed to Jesus who became our Sacrificial Lamb and ended at the cross Col 2:14-17 Hebrews 10:1-10 and we no longer sacrifice animals for the forgiveness of sin, we can go directly to Jesus. Sin is still the same as it always been and it is breaking God's law 1 John 3:4 and Paul quotes directly from the Ten Commandments to point out sin Romans 7:7 which James says if you break one you break them all James 2:10-12
You have to know this (now at least), but I am sure you will dance. Just as you danced away from the argument about Romans 3:28-29.
No dancing, just using plain scriptures from the Word of God.
 
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Joy

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