Col 2:16 is about not judging others

[Leaf473]

Gentiles had to be circumcised and proselytize to be under the law given on Mt Sinai.

So I do not think that the logic "who is not led by the Spirit is under the law" applies. Even more, considering what Paul says in Romans:

"All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law." R 2:12

--- therefore, when Gentiles sin, they do not become being under the law; they simply perish apart from the law

Right, and we see just a bit earlier in Galatians that Jesus was born under the law. The general logic of "those who break the law are under the law" doesn't really fit imo.

 

[Leaf473]

This is not what I asked for and what everybody else understood well, except of you.

I cannot imagine that somebody asks you on the street "what is the letter to Galatians about" and you tell something like this.

Please, for your own sake, simply take your time, it takes half an hour at most, read the letter from the beginning to end like it was meant to be read and make your own summary of what it says, without your church instructions and study materials. Not for me, but for yourself.

If I was to analyze your post, it seems you began reading Galatians, got into first chapters, tried to do the summary that is in the beginning of your post and then you gave up and reused some prepared theological materials that just had slightly more verses from Galatians than your other materials.

A thing I like to remember when reading Galatians or any other book of scripture is that it was probably intended to be understandable, graspable, by the original audience.

The standard dating of Galatians puts it before Romans and Hebrews, so how would that very early church have read it? Those are things I try to keep in mind

Bible Gateway passage: Galatians 1:6-7 - New International Reader's Version

There Is No Other Good News - I am amazed. You are so quickly deserting the one who chose you. He chose you to live in the grace that Christ has provided. You are turning to a different “good news.” What you are accepting is really not the good news at all. It seems that some people have gotten...

www.biblegateway.com

 

[trophy33]

A thing I like to remember when reading Galatians or any other book of scripture is that it was probably intended to be understandable, graspable, by the original audience.

The standard dating of Galatians puts it before Romans and Hebrews, so how would that very early church have read it? Those are things I try to keep in mind

Bible Gateway passage: Galatians 1:6-7 - New International Reader's Version

There Is No Other Good News - I am amazed. You are so quickly deserting the one who chose you. He chose you to live in the grace that Christ has provided. You are turning to a different “good news.” What you are accepting is really not the good news at all. It seems that some people have gotten...

www.biblegateway.com

Well, in the first place, it was meant to be publicly read in the assembly. So its not some compilation of verses we can take separate, take out of it and put somewhere else, but its rather a sermon/monologue, in which Paul returns to his point several different ways, uses illustrations etc.

 

[trophy33]

Oh, definitely
I'd just add that there is wisdom in the law, and many good principles can be seen in it.

It was good for its time period. But if somebody tries to use what was not meant to be used anymore, then it becomes bad.

 

[trophy33]

I wasn’t expecting you to like my summary, thats okay. Galatians is a big chapter. It was good timing since it is what we are studying in my group bible study.. Thanks for inviting me and take care

Yeah, you are just trying to defend your Seventh Day Adventist doctrine, thats why you put the doctrine repeatedly into every conversation. I tried to get some normal conversation from you, but I give up.

 

[trophy33]

And yet the doers of the law shall be justified. The gentiles showing the work of the law in their hearts. The invisible things of God from the creation of the world having been made known, Therein the just shall live by. Faith in this. The working of God in and through our hearts. (Romans 2:13-15; 1:17-20) But we are in Galatians not Romans. That is a whole different context and letter. Let's stick with Galatians please, if we get through it then maybe Romans.

You spoke of context before let's stick with that shall we. It applies because he is talking to gentiles in this discourse. Starting in verse 12. In connection to that he says that we can't do the things that we would because the Spirit is contrary to the flesh and passionate against it's desires. In conclusion to this connection with the Spirit that we have it says that we are not under the Law If we are led by it. THERE IS a condition placed there. IF you are led by the Spirit you are not under the law. So if you are not led by the Spirit then you are committing said acts and are under the law. But if you are led by the Spirit the law is not needed because we are not breaking it because of it's fruits through Christ. Wherein there is no law against. (Gal 5:23)

Gal 5:12 I would they were even cut off which trouble you.
Gal 5:13 For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another.
Gal 5:14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Gal 5:15 But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another.
Gal 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
Gal 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
Gal 5:18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
Gal 5:23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
Gal 5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

From the context, I think Paul can mean something like this:
Your desire to be under the Law is of flesh. But the Spirit wishes what is contrary to the flesh. If you are led by the Spirit, then you cannot be under the Law, its an opposite desire.

Another possible reading is "if you are led by the Spirit, even the Law has nothing to say against you" and then lists the things like love, peace, gentleness etc - there is no Law against such things.

And probably the simplest one is "Do not be mistaken thinking that when you become Christians, you are supposed to be under the Law. No, when you become Christians, you do not become being under the Law".

Anyway, I do not think it postulates that Gentiles who are not Christians are automatically under the Law given to Jews. Such idea is totally foreign to Bible and contradicts quite a lot of other places, for example in Romans.

 

[Leaf473]

It doesn't say the Law of Moses in Galatians.

That's right But remembering those early Galatians, what would they have thought when they first encountered the word Law in that letter? It occurs when Paul is recounting his confrontation with Peter.

What would they have thought it meant?

"They gave to Barnabas and me the right hand of fellowship, that we should go to the Gentiles, and they to the circumcision."

Tell me is it the faith of Christ that Galatians 2:20 is talking about or faith in?

It looks to me like it's probably faith In Christ.

And if we put on Christ as 3:27 says, what does that mean?

Looks like it's synonymous with believing in Jesus and being baptized into him.

And how does that relate to Galatians 6:14-18 where it says a Christian should glory in the cross and that they should be crucified unto the world. In so much that we are new creature walking in Christ Jesus.

It all relates in that we are new creations. The law of Moses and the Old Covenant are in the past.

Is that the same as saying the gift of our Lord Jesus Christ be with your spirit?

No, but it's probably very similar

 

[Leaf473]

It was good for its time period. But if somebody tries to use what was not meant to be used anymore, then it becomes bad.

Yes, similar to the idea of sewing a new patch of cloth on an old garment.

Bible Gateway passage: Ecclesiastes 3 - New International Reader's Version

There Is a Time for Everything - There is a time for everything. There’s a time for everything that is done on earth. There is a time to be born. And there’s a time to die. There is a time to plant. And there’s a time to pull up what is planted. There is a time to kill. And there’s a time to...

www.biblegateway.com

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Why not just answer the points of the post. There should be a rule here against this. The above response is nothing more than a distracting or misleading piece of information that diverts attention from a relevant or important question or truth or point that is being made. In other words a red herring.

Hi Sabbath blessings, in respect to Galatians 2:20 is there a difference between faith in Christ and the faith of Christ?

Gal 2:20 I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me.

Faith in Christ is to trust Christ fully......its more than just believing which many think that's all that is needed, but its faith that transforms. Faith of Christ is what Christ has accomplished in the believer.

Is this your understanding or do you think it means something different?

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Yeah, you are just trying to defend your Seventh Day Adventist doctrine, thats why you put the doctrine repeatedly into every conversation. I tried to get some normal conversation from you, but I give up.

As I stated more than once you are welcome and have been encouraged to defend your theories through scripture instead of your words. If you think obeying God and His commandments/ Sabbath is an "SDA" doctrine you shouldn't give us so much credit. We are not thus saith the Lord. You are on the Sabbath and Law forum, so if you don't like the conversation, you are welcome to explore other areas of the forums....anyway appreciate the chat.

 

[HIM]

Gal 2:20 I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me.

Faith in Christ is to trust Christ fully......its more than just believing which many think that's all that is needed, but its faith that transforms. Faith of Christ is what Christ has accomplished in the believer.

Is this your understanding or do you think it means something different?

The word "in" in the clause " I Live by the faith in the son of God" is not there. It should be translated " I live by the faith of the Son of God"

 

[bbbbbbb]

The word "in" in the clause " I Live by the faith in the son of God" is not there. It should be translated " I live by the faith of the Son of God"

That does pose a significant theological problem for those who believe that it is their personal faith which emanates from within themselves which will save them.

 

[Leaf473]

The word "in" in the clause " I Live by the faith in the son of God" is not there. It should be translated " I live by the faith of the Son of God"

I see what you're saying, and it's possible. A few translations render it that way.

Galatians 2:20 - Bible Gateway

www.biblegateway.com

Greek makes heavy use of declensions.
One result is that information is often contained inside of words that require additional words when translated into English. Otherwise, meaning is lost or distorted.

Anyways, what is the practical difference that you're getting at between
Faith in Christ
and
Faith of Christ?

 

[bbbbbbb]

I see what you're saying, and it's possible. A few translations render it that way.

Galatians 2:20 - Bible Gateway

www.biblegateway.com

Greek makes heavy use of declensions.
One result is that information is often contained inside of words that require additional words when translated into English. Otherwise, meaning is lost or distorted.

Anyways, what is the practical difference that you're getting at between
Faith in Christ
and
Faith of Christ?

The difference is relative simple.

"Faith in Christ" is taken to mean the person's free-will response by choosing to place their faith in Christ, and not in some other deity.

"Faith of Christ" is taken to mean the faith possessed by Jesus Christ which He bestows on His elect apart from any merit on their part.

 

[Leaf473]

The difference is relative simple.

"Faith in Christ" is taken to mean the person's free-will response by choosing to place their faith in Christ, and not in some other deity.

"Faith of Christ" is taken to mean the faith possessed by Jesus Christ which He bestows on His elect apart from any merit on their part.

That's a valid point.

I suppose, though, a person could have faith in Christ, and at the same time that faith could be the gift of God apart from their own merit, couldn't they?

In any case, does it affect how we would interpret what Galatians is saying about the law?

Peace be with you

 

[bbbbbbb]

That's a valid point.

I suppose, though, a person could have faith in Christ, and at the same time that faith could be the gift of God apart from their own merit, couldn't they?

In any case, does it affect how we would interpret what Galatians is saying about the law?

Peace be with you

I agree. The problem is that people in either camp make it an either/or proposition (or preposition, as the case may be).

 

[HIM]

That does pose a significant theological problem for those who believe that it is their personal faith which emanates from within themselves which will save them.

I see what you're saying, and it's possible. A few translations render it that way.

Galatians 2:20 - Bible Gateway

www.biblegateway.com

Greek makes heavy use of declensions.
One result is that information is often contained inside of words that require additional words when translated into English. Otherwise, meaning is lost or distorted.

Anyways, what is the practical difference that you're getting at between
Faith in Christ
and
Faith of Christ?

It is a profound statement and the actual theme of the letter.

 

[Leaf473]

It is a profound statement and the actual theme of the letter.

Okay... through the law, we died to the law, and now live by the faith of the Son of God. If the law there is the law of Moses
(very likely what the Galatians would've thought)
then Yes and Amen.

 

[HIM]

Okay... through the law, we died to the law, and now live by the faith of the Son of God. If the law there is the law of Moses
(very likely what the Galatians would've thought)
then Yes and Amen.

If by the Law of Moses you mean the laws in the Pentateuch and the Decalogue yes because we as Christ are not to need it because we are living it through Him and don't want it any other way because we are likeminded, having God's Laws in our hearts and minds rather than a book and tables of stone. Christ, the Word lives in us and the Life WE live we live by the Faith OF the Son of God. This premise starts in chapter 1 when Paul shared God revealed that Christ was in Him and that the people he once persecuted recognized God in him.

 

[Leaf473]

If by the Law of Moses you mean the laws in the Pentateuch and the Decalogue yes because we as Christ are not to need it because we are living it through Him and don't want it any other way because we are likeminded, having God's Laws in our hearts and minds rather than a book and tables of stone. Christ, the Word lives in us and the Life WE live we live by the Faith OF the Son of God. This premise starts in chapter 1 when Paul shared God revealed that Christ was in Him and that the people he once persecuted recognized God in him.

Sounds good! And since we are living it through him, we don't take the physical actions described in the law of Moses, such as circumcision.

Bible Gateway passage: Galatians 6:18 - New International Reader's Version

Brothers and sisters, may the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with your spirit. Amen.

www.biblegateway.com