Galatians 4 two opposing covenants.

[GDL]

What are you reading? Are you reading the law? Ishmael was circumcised and all Abraham's household.
Ge 18:19 For I know him, that he will command his children and his household after him, and they shall keep the way of the LORD, to do justice and judgment; that the LORD may bring upon Abraham that which he hath spoken of him.

I'm speaking in the context of the question asked about Galatians and works of law. The context of Galatian believers being told they needed to get circumcised.

 

[GDL]

"Useless" is not in reference to what it reveals, but to righteousness which it does not accomplish.

The word in Heb7:18 means useless, unprofitable, and can trend into damaging, hurtful. This word is never applied to law overall.

Likewise, the word used in Heb 7:18 is "unprofitable;" i.e., law was not profitable to them because of their weak sinful nature.

As I showed, this word is not applied to law, but applied to the fleshly commandment contained in law. This is easily seen in Heb7:18 with the genitive pronoun "it" referring to the genitive noun "commandment." It's also easily seen in the English.

And the law that teaches and reveals sin is all law, the Decalogue as well as the laws in Leviticus.

However, keep in mind what the word of God states in regard to the law of the Decalogue:
"For the impossible thing of the law, in which it was weak through the flesh, God sending the Son of himself in likeness of flesh of sin and concerning sin (in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin) condemned sin in the flesh, in order that the ordinance of the law may be fulfilled in us the (ones) not according to flesh walking but according to Spirit." (Ro 8:3-4).

Therefore: the law of Ro 8:3-4 that was weak through the flesh (same language as Heb 7:18) and fulfilled in us (NT saints)" according to Spirit refers to the Decalogue, not to laws in Leviticus.

The language of Heb 7:18 regarding the unprofitableness of law,
(which law is both Leviticus and Decalogue, with Lev establishing the High Priest descent to sons in Lev 8:1-6)
is the same language as Ro 8:3-4 regarding the weakness of the Decalogue.

So not only is the "fleshly commandment law" of Leviticus unprofitable (Heb 7:18),
but the Decalogue is likewise "weak through the flesh" (Ro 8:3-4).
However, God condemned sin in the flesh in order that the Decalogue may be fulfilled in us walking according to Spirit.

I'm comfortable with what I see in Hebrews 7 that I presented.

The law per Rom8 was weak through the flesh & could not overcome nor free us from sin in the flesh.

The law per Heb7 contains a fleshly, weak and ultimately useless/unprofitable commandment establishing a Priesthood that was never meant to last pursuant to Ps110 which contains language re: Messiah and the Eternal Melchizedekian Priest.

As I said earlier, these are separate lessons concerning something about Law. Since they concern Law, they ultimately have some tie, but useless/unprofitable is not a word that is applied to God's Law beyond the priesthood commandment itself in Heb7:18.

Both the Decalogue and the laws in Leviticus are associated with Moses.

Agreed. All Law from Exodus through Deuteronomy are referred to as the Law of Moses.

Agreed. . .this ties back to Lev 8:1-6 and the ordination of Aaron and his sons to the priesthood, with Aaron as the High Priest.

This ties back further to God's instruction and commands beginning at least at the end of Ex27 through Ex31, then Ex35-40, then into Lev.

Acccording to Ro 8:3-4 it is the law being fulfilled in the NT saints; i.e., the Decalogue.


Other verses say the Law was weak through the flesh, but God condemned sin in the flesh that the law might be fulfilled in those who walk in the Spirit (Ro 8:3-4).

I'm not so quick to limit this to the Decalogue due to Love God and Love Neighbor and Love One Another as Christ Loved us. I think this goes beyond the Decalogue, but this is another discussion that also seeks limits.

 

[GDL]

This belongs here also.
Galatians in a nutshell. We are all one in Christ. Not us but Christ.
We are not to sin or want to through Christ, hence no need for law unless one is still sinning. No need for tutors or the schoolmaster. For we are dead nevertheless we live. Yet not us but Christ lives in us and the life we now live in the flesh we live by the faith OF Christ. For we have put on Christ and live through the spirit. For His Law is in our hearts and minds. His Word in our mouth that we do it. That is the Faith in which we preach. We have been given a new Spirit. Us in Him, He in us that the World might believe. We have been delivered from this present evil age.
God set us free from His Law through Christ. We are no longer under it because we are not breaking it. We are not sinning through Christ. And if we are sinning then we are still under a tutor, the Schoolmaster, the Law and are only living partly in Christ if at all. We are not to be doing the things that we would. We are not under the Schoolmaster, the Law if we are led by the Spirit through Christ and are not sinning. If we are walking in the Spirit we shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. They that are of Christ have crucified the flesh and the lusts thereof through the fruit of the Spirit to which there is no law, therefore they are not under it.

As you know, these themes from Scripture are used and connected in different ways by different minds.

IMO we do still need instruction in righteousness from all God-breathed Scripture. God's Holy Law in His God-breathed Scripture is instruction in righteousness. At this point as can be seen in I think it safe to say all discussions concerning Law, there is hardly a better example of the need for rightly dividing the word of truth. Sin is still an issue; thus, law remains instructional, and Christians do sin so part of our walk in Spirit is to acknowledge our sins to God, and part of the mature ("spiritual") Christian's responsibility is to be able to identify any sin and assist a Christians sibling who has become caught up in sin to be restored.

I agree that the Spirit led Christian is not under law and I see this "under law" phrase used by Paul to be very technical and speaking about the previous Mosaic era where law was being used by sin in the flesh.

 

[GDL]

Gal. 2:11 But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed.

12 For before that certain came from James, he did eat with the Gentiles: but when they (Jews) were come, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing them which were of the circumcision.

13 And the other Jews dissembled likewise with him; insomuch that Barnabas also was carried away with their dissimulation.

14 But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel,

What Gospel is this? The one the Hebrews Author said was preached to Israel and to Paul, but Israel didn't believe/have faith in what they heard?

It's first the Gospel Paul as Paul speaks of in Galatians. Then it ties back to the promise to Abraham in Gal3:8 and Heb4 ties the Gospel to the wilderness experience of Israel.

Do you think others do not see these things or take them into account?

How does this answer what "works of law" pertains to?

Where does a man find the religious theory in the Holy Scriptures, that if I repent, turn to God, and walk in the "Good works" HE before ordained that I should walk in, as HE instructs, I am setting aside God's grace?

It seems more a religious theory that this activity of man is being mentioned apart from faith in Jesus Christ, which you should make clear.

If you're asking me if Christians are created for good works by grace through faith, my answer is yes they are. Then we get to discuss what good works are and prove the theory with Scripture.

Now if a person believes what Paul and Jesus teach about the Jews Religion, they will understand that the Jews "set aside God's Commandments" so that they would keep their own manmade religious traditions. They persecuted the Church of God and killed the Prophets, as their father did, so do they. They taught for doctrines the Commandments of men, not God. They didn't believe Moses, and they omitted much of God's Law, including His LAW of Mercy, Faith and Judgment. They had the Oracles of God but didn't believe them. They promoted the false doctrine that the gentiles were aliens of the commonwealth of Israel, and were without Christ, without God and without Hope in the world and created a partition between them and Salvation. A religion that still partook of and promoted their version of Levitical sacrificial "works of the Law" for justification.

Wasn't both Paul and Peter, "Freed" from this corrupt religion? And had "Yielded themselves" Servant to Obey God, and became a New man, a Servant to God's Righteousness?

I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews?

Why would Peter then, get carried away by promoting the same corrupt and lawless Religious Philosophy, that he was required to "Repent from" to even be a Disciple of Christ?

Paul was right in rebuking him. Did these Jews Honor Christ, and His Sacrifice for them, as did the repentant gentiles? Or were they still promoting justification by "works of the Law"?

So how did the Jews live? Should I not believe Paul in the previous Chapter?

Gal. 1: 13 For ye have heard of my conversation in time past in the Jews' religion, how that beyond measure I persecuted the church of God, and wasted it: 14 And profited in the Jews' religion above many my equals in mine own nation, being more exceedingly zealous of the traditions of my fathers.

Were the Jews dedicated to Honor God with obedience, like Zacharias, Simeon and Anna? Did the Jews Religion "Attain to the Law of Righteousness"? Didn't we just establish that they did not Attain to the Law of Righteousness, but repentant Gentiles did?? But now you seem to be implying that the Jews were following God's Laws, which caused them to set aside God's Grace. I don't think that is Paul's message at all.

15 We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, 16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, (For What? What is a man's faith in God for? Is it not belief that HE gave the World His only begotten Son, as a sacrifice for Justification, forgiveness of Sins, to wash away all unrighteousness?)
even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Again, what "Works of the Law" for remission of Sins, were the Jews still promoting?

Where have you proven that "works of law" applies only to this false religion, let alone the narrow focus of sacrifices?

I don't think you and I have mutually established much of anything in accord yet on this topic of works of law or attaining righteousness. I do think my analysis of Heb7 agrees with your view that the weak & worthless fleshly commandment is not the entire Law.

 

[GDL]

Well it is a Narrow focus and was the only focus in Hebrews 7-10. There is not ONE mention of the two greatest commandments. Only the Levitical Priesthood. This is because, when these letters were written, the great argument was between the promoters of the belief in the sacrificial "Works of the Law" of the Levitical Priesthood for justification that the Jews were still promoting, and belief in the sacrificial "Work" of the Prophesied Priest of God for justification, that the Disciples were promoting.

God's Instruction in Righteousness never changed.

Yet, as I showed from Scripture, works of law is not narrowly focused to sacrifice or the Priesthood and is correlated to being under the curse of the law for not keeping all of its commandments. Works of law is a bigger topic than sacrifices. As I read, it's the entire OC life "under law" that can be lived in or apart from faith. Also, in that day Judaism was hardly monolithic.

I think it's a huge foundational issue. Can a man call Jesus Lord, claim repentance and then lay aside God's Commandments so they can walk in their own religious traditions, reject God's Judgments and create their own, walk in the righteousness of this world's religions, while rejecting the righteousness of God, and be Justified?

IMO it's a pseudo-faith if one is not obedient to Him. His title is one of absolute authority and He is God. It's a farce to call Him Lord and not do what He says Luke6:46 and He will reject those who did lawlessness while thinking they served Him Matt7:23.

Although I do not recall your answering my question regarding what laws, I have noted your observation of Sabbath and your mention of sharing company during Unleavened Bread. With these and other things that are fairly clear, it seems that you have settled into Messianic Judaism or something similar. You seem to argue for Biblical Judaism against anything else that you refer to as world religions or something similar. Care to comment now? FWIW I attended a Messianic Jewish congregation for years and it was the best congregation experience I've had. But that system is also not monolithic.

Why does a man need Repentance in the first place?

Eph. 4: 17 This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind, 18 Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart: 19 Who being past feeling have given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness.

20 But ye have not so learned Christ; 21 If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus: 22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts; 23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind; 24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

Was it any difference for the Jews?

Ez. 18:30 Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, saith the Lord GOD. Repent, and turn yourselves from all your transgressions; so iniquity shall not be your ruin. 31 Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel? 32 For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye.

There is a reason God inspired Paul to say; (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

Not Justified by Temporary Old Priesthood sacrificial "Works of the Law", that the Jews were still promoting.

But Justified because a man had faith/Belief in God, "AND" Jesus Christ, whom HE sent to turn us from our sins.

5 Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:

I'll leave this for now. My basic sense is that you found your place and are using Scripture at times correctly and at other times incorrectly to substantiate it. You're hardly alone in this.

 

[ralliann]

Well it is a Narrow focus and was the only focus in Hebrews 7-10. There is not ONE mention of the two greatest commandments. Only the Levitical Priesthood. This is because, when these letters were written, the great argument was between the promoters of the belief in the sacrificial "Works of the Law" of the Levitical Priesthood for justification that the Jews were still promoting, and belief in the sacrificial "Work" of the Prophesied Priest of God for justification, that the Disciples were promoting.

God's Instruction in Righteousness never changed.



I think it's a huge foundational issue. Can a man call Jesus Lord, claim repentance and then lay aside God's Commandments so they can walk in their own religious traditions, reject God's Judgments and create their own, walk in the righteousness of this world's religions, while rejecting the righteousness of God, and be Justified?

Why does a man need Repentance in the first place?

Eph. 4: 17 This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind, 18 Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart: 19 Who being past feeling have given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness.

20 But ye have not so learned Christ; 21 If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus: 22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts; 23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind; 24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

Was it any difference for the Jews?

Ez. 18:30 Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, saith the Lord GOD. Repent, and turn yourselves from all your transgressions; so iniquity shall not be your ruin. 31 Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel? 32 For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye.

There is a reason God inspired Paul to say; (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

Not Justified by Temporary Old Priesthood sacrificial "Works of the Law", that the Jews were still promoting.

But Justified because a man had faith/Belief in God, "AND" Jesus Christ, whom HE sent to turn us from our sins.

5 Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:

Studyman, are you Messianic? If so, of what sort. Do you agree with Rabbinic Judaism the Priesthood of Levi, was the problem? It would help us understand what you see there.

 

[Clare73]

The word in Heb7:18 means useless, unprofitable, and can trend into damaging, hurtful. This word is never applied to law overall.
As I showed, this word is not applied to law, but applied to the fleshly commandment contained in law. This is easily seen in Heb7:18 with the genitive pronoun "it" referring to the genitive noun "commandment." It's also easily seen in the English.
I'm comfortable with what I see in Hebrews 7 that I presented.
The law per Rom8 was weak through the flesh & could not overcome nor free us from sin in the flesh.
The law per Heb7 contains a fleshly, weak and ultimately useless/unprofitable commandment establishing a Priesthood that was never meant to last pursuant to Ps110 which contains language re: Messiah and the Eternal Melchizedekian Priest.

As I said earlier, these are separate lessons concerning something about Law. Since they concern Law, they ultimately have some tie, but useless/unprofitable is not a word that is applied to God's Law beyond the priesthood commandment itself in Heb7:18.

Agreed. All Law from Exodus through Deuteronomy are referred to as the Law of Moses.

This ties back further to God's instruction and commands beginning at least at the end of Ex27 through Ex31, then Ex35-40, then into Lev.

I'm not so quick to limit this to the Decalogue due to Love God and Love Neighbor
and Love One Another as Christ Loved us. I think this goes beyond the Decalogue, but this is another discussion that also seeks limits.

That is the Decalogue (Ro 13:8-10), which is likewise "weak through the flesh" (Ro 8:3),
but God condemned sin in the flesh that the law (love of God, neighbor as self, and the brethren as Christ loved us) might be fulfilled in those who walk in the Spirit (Ro 8:4).

 

[GDL]

That is the Decalogue (Ro 13:8-10), which is likewise "weak through the flesh" (Ro 8:3),
but God condemned sin in the flesh that the law (love of God, neighbor as self, and the brethren as Christ loved us) might be fulfilled in those who walk in the Spirit (Ro 8:4).

The Law (whatever commandments He says still exist - obviously excluding the weak & unprofitable/useless fleshly one for the old Priesthood) is no longer weak through the flesh for those who walk in Spirit in the new Great High Priesthood of Jesus Christ.

Decalogue + per Rom13:9 "if any other commandment" which language assumes there is. Paul is summoning us to do our homework. We should be students of His commandments - His will - His instructions. If we keep His commandments, we love Him (John14; 1John5). If we keep His commandments, we know that we know Him (1John2:3-4). Knowing Him & Jesus Christ whom He sent is eternal life (John17:3).

It's always been about this - ask Adam 1 about his failure. It will always be about this - ask Adam 2 about His success (Heb5:7-8).

We should be helping one another to ponder His Law, not fighting about it. Our walk in Spirit would be easier. Our advance to maturity would be quicker (Heb5:12-6:4). More of us would be fulfilling Messianic Law (Gal6:1-2).

 

[Studyman]

Here are all the verses where Paul uses the phrase: from works of law: Rom3:20, Rom3:28; Gal2:16; Gal3:2, Gal3:5, Gal3:10. I don't see any of these verses being directly related to animal sacrifices. If you do, I'm happy to look at them in context if you can show it. It seems you're self-defining works of law as sacrifices just as I said it seemed you are doing. See the above referenced verses and statements.

In every case, it is the religious Jews of Paul's Time he is speaking to. They are speaking about "works of the Law" "for Justification". Works of the Law the Pharisees, like their fathers, were still promoting.

Paul had already established what he taught to both Jew and Gentile, based in a Vision from the Christ Himself.

Acts 26: 19 Whereupon, O king Agrippa, I was not disobedient unto the heavenly vision: 20 But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.

Paul had also already established in his letter to the Romans ( ch.2 ), as did God throughout the entire Law and Prophets, and Jesus whom God sent, "(For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

In the Holy Scriptures, those men who obeyed God's instruction, were said to have "FAITH", and those who rejected God's instruction were said to be "a very froward generation, children in whom is no faith."

These disobedient "Children in whom is no Faith", according to the Inspired Words of the Rock of Israel, their Redeemer in Is. 43, but thou hast made me to serve with thy sins, thou hast wearied me with thine iniquities.

These were rebellious, disobedient, stiff-necked people who full well rejected the Commandments of God so they could keep their own traditions. And yet, they Justified themselves by sacrificing animals for 40 years in the wilderness, and continued to do so throughout the Prophets, and the Pharisees including Paul for awhile, walked in and promoted the same Jews Religion.

According to Jesus Stephen and Paul, the Pharisees and members of the Jews Religion they created that Paul left, were the same. " Acts 7: 51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.

All these things are well established in the Holy Scriptures that Paul said were profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:.

So for me, a nobody who has separated myself from this world's religious and religious philosophers for 30 years now, it is a no brainer.

The Pharisees, as they had done for centuries, rejected God's Laws and despised His Judgments showing they had no Faith in God. But justified themselves through the Sacrificial "works of the Law" of the Levitical Priesthood. A Law Abraham did not have.

Is. 1: 10 Hear the word of the LORD, ye rulers of Sodom; give ear unto the law of our God, ye people of Gomorrah. 11 To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices unto me? saith the LORD: I am full of the burnt offerings of rams, and the fat of fed beasts; and I delight not in the blood of bullocks, or of lambs, or of he goats. It's all over the Bible. "to obey is better than sacrifice".

Jer. 7: 21 Thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel; Put your burnt offerings unto your sacrifices, and eat flesh. 22 For I spake not unto your fathers, nor commanded them in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, concerning burnt offerings or sacrifices: 23 But this thing commanded I them, saying, Obey my voice, and I will be your God, and ye shall be my people: and walk ye in all the ways that I have commanded you, that it may be well unto you.

24 But they hearkened not, nor inclined their ear, but walked in the counsels and in the imagination of their evil heart, and went backward, and not forward.

But they still offered sacrifices to justify themselves, as they did in Paul's Time. This is very important to this discussion. And is this not true, according to Scriptures?

Now here comes modern religions, who would have me ignore and refuse to accept all these Biblical Truths. And somehow believe that the Pharisees were suddenly trying to get the members of the Church of God, under HIS Prophesied New Priest, to be a "Doer" of the Law and not a Hearer only.

That the "works of the Law" the Pharisees were requiring for justification in Paul's time, was suddenly, for the first time in Biblical history, God's instruction in righteousness given them through Moses, who Jesus Himself said they didn't keep.

And why would they, modern religions, want to promote such a thing given what the Scriptures actually teach? Is it not to justify their own religion which rebels against God's Commandments and rejects His Judgments?

No my friend, I am not "Self-defining" what the "works of the Law" were for justification that the Jews had partook of for centuries and were still promoting in Paul's Time.

In my understanding, God didn't promote Sacrificial "works" so men could justify living in disobedience to Him. In my view, this is true in Both the old and the new Priesthoods.

 

[HIM]

As you know, these themes from Scripture are used and connected in different ways by different minds.

Some Spirit led, most not.

IMO we do still need instruction in righteousness from all God-breathed Scripture. God's Holy Law in His God-breathed Scripture is instruction in righteousness.

The point of Jesus coming was to reestablish us back to what God intended. A new creature created in Christ Jesus. Begotten by the word of truth. Having His word engrafted in our hearts, His Law in our minds. The firstfruit of His kind. Not forgetting what manner we are. Doers of the Word of which we are of, having His Law in our hearts and mind. A new Spirit which is His. In which we been Annointed. His Spirit abiding in us, not needing that any man teach us: but as the same anointing teacheth us of all things. Knowing God from the least unto the greatest. A people of His Spirit not the letter. Not by ink or tables of stone but by the Spirit of the living God.

However Paul wrote "the mystery of iniquity doth already work." in his time and this has taken over what was to be. So alas we are back to the letter. The Old and the New testament. Which as you see the carnal mind twists and no clear understanding is agreed upon as a majority until all is leavened.

At this point as can be seen in I think it safe to say all discussions concerning Law, there is hardly a better example of the need for rightly dividing the word of truth. Sin is still an issue; thus, law remains instructional, and Christians do sin so part of our walk in Spirit

And this why we are where we are. The mystery of iniquity working it's work. God's ideal through Christ has not come to fruition. A people set free from all iniquity. Delivered from this present evil era. A peculiar people zealous of good works, a holy nation, the Israel of God. A people who cannot sin because they are born of God. For he that commits sin is a slave to it.

1Pet 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:

Titus 2:14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.
Gal 6:16 And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.

I agree that the Spirit led Christian is not under law and I see this "under law" phrase used by Paul to be very technical and speaking about the previous Mosaic era where law was being used by sin in the flesh.

What do you mean by the Mosaic era where the law was being used by sin in the flesh please.

 

[GDL]

In every case, it is the religious Jews of Paul's Time he is speaking to. They are speaking about "works of the Law" "for Justification". Works of the Law the Pharisees, like their fathers, were still promoting.

Paul had already established what he taught to both Jew and Gentile, based in a Vision from the Christ Himself.

Acts 26: 19 Whereupon, O king Agrippa, I was not disobedient unto the heavenly vision: 20 But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.

Paul had also already established in his letter to the Romans ( ch.2 ), as did God throughout the entire Law and Prophets, and Jesus whom God sent, "(For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

In the Holy Scriptures, those men who obeyed God's instruction, were said to have "FAITH", and those who rejected God's instruction were said to be "a very froward generation, children in whom is no faith."

These disobedient "Children in whom is no Faith", according to the Inspired Words of the Rock of Israel, their Redeemer in Is. 43, but thou hast made me to serve with thy sins, thou hast wearied me with thine iniquities.

These were rebellious, disobedient, stiff-necked people who full well rejected the Commandments of God so they could keep their own traditions. And yet, they Justified themselves by sacrificing animals for 40 years in the wilderness, and continued to do so throughout the Prophets, and the Pharisees including Paul for awhile, walked in and promoted the same Jews Religion.

According to Jesus Stephen and Paul, the Pharisees and members of the Jews Religion they created that Paul left, were the same. " Acts 7: 51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.

All these things are well established in the Holy Scriptures that Paul said were profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:.

So for me, a nobody who has separated myself from this world's religious and religious philosophers for 30 years now, it is a no brainer.

The Pharisees, as they had done for centuries, rejected God's Laws and despised His Judgments showing they had no Faith in God. But justified themselves through the Sacrificial "works of the Law" of the Levitical Priesthood. A Law Abraham did not have.

Is. 1: 10 Hear the word of the LORD, ye rulers of Sodom; give ear unto the law of our God, ye people of Gomorrah. 11 To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices unto me? saith the LORD: I am full of the burnt offerings of rams, and the fat of fed beasts; and I delight not in the blood of bullocks, or of lambs, or of he goats. It's all over the Bible. "to obey is better than sacrifice".

Jer. 7: 21 Thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel; Put your burnt offerings unto your sacrifices, and eat flesh. 22 For I spake not unto your fathers, nor commanded them in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, concerning burnt offerings or sacrifices: 23 But this thing commanded I them, saying, Obey my voice, and I will be your God, and ye shall be my people: and walk ye in all the ways that I have commanded you, that it may be well unto you.

24 But they hearkened not, nor inclined their ear, but walked in the counsels and in the imagination of their evil heart, and went backward, and not forward.

But they still offered sacrifices to justify themselves, as they did in Paul's Time. This is very important to this discussion. And is this not true, according to Scriptures?

Now here comes modern religions, who would have me ignore and refuse to accept all these Biblical Truths. And somehow believe that the Pharisees were suddenly trying to get the members of the Church of God, under HIS Prophesied New Priest, to be a "Doer" of the Law and not a Hearer only.

That the "works of the Law" the Pharisees were requiring for justification in Paul's time, was suddenly, for the first time in Biblical history, God's instruction in righteousness given them through Moses, who Jesus Himself said they didn't keep.

And why would they, modern religions, want to promote such a thing given what the Scriptures actually teach? Is it not to justify their own religion which rebels against God's Commandments and rejects His Judgments?

No my friend, I am not "Self-defining" what the "works of the Law" were for justification that the Jews had partook of for centuries and were still promoting in Paul's Time.

In my understanding, God didn't promote Sacrificial "works" so men could justify living in disobedience to Him. In my view, this is true in Both the old and the new Priesthoods.

Was the pre-Christ sacrificial system a bad thing?

Were there some who sacrificed as told to do who did not use the system to be pseudo-religious and live in disobedience and not faith?

Were there some who did use the system to be pseudo-religious and live without faithful obedience?

Was the sacrificial system not a teaching method God used to teach and train about the cost of sin/lawlessness/disobedience and teach about the ultimate sacrifice His Son would make?

Is our instruction and replacement system to acknowledge our sins to God under the advocacy of Jesus Christ for forgiveness (release of debt) and cleansing by Christ's blood a bad thing?

Is all this the ultimate for God's Creation? Of course not. He will have a Creation that Love as He does and will be without sin. Along the way to this Perfection/Completion He has graciously made provision for His people to deal with sin.

Take each part of Scripture where Paul speaks of "works of law" - remain in that area of Scripture - remain in context - find the lesson - understand the scope - see if it's all about sacrifices. I'm happy to work on this with you. piece by piece, word by word. Maybe we'll both learn something.

FWIW, I'm your new best friend if you successfully define and explain this phrase in Scripture with Scripture in context. Further FWIW, I recently read a 300+/- page dissertation on this phrase chasing down interpretations of it back to the 2nd century and up through present day. There as usual is no consensus on its exact meaning. I have some views on what I think it means and my views are similar to some of the others but maybe a bit different as I recall. If you've got the actual solution, we'll get you to the "scholars" - you'll be put to the test beyond what I can do - and if successfully defend your hypothesis (so back to the Socratic Method potentially referenced in Heb11) I'm sure you'll go from being the dumb old cowboy nobody you self-profess to be, to being offered a bunch of hats and tassels from various institutions and put on the lecture circuit.

 

[GDL]

A people who cannot sin because they are born of God. For he that commits sin is a slave to it.

But a people that do sin, are not slaves to it, confess it as they are told to, and are learning the truth so they can be free from sin. 1John3:9 is always a fun one.

What do you mean by the Mosaic era where the law was being used by sin in the flesh please.

Romans 7.

 

[GDL]

Some Spirit led, most not.

Agree to the limit I'm able to discern. Narrow gate, narrow way.

 

[Studyman]

Although I do not recall your answering my question regarding what laws, I have noted your observation of Sabbath and your mention of sharing company during Unleavened Bread. With these and other things that are fairly clear, it seems that you have settled into Messianic Judaism or something similar. You seem to argue for Biblical Judaism against anything else that you refer to as world religions or something similar. Care to comment now? FWIW I attended a Messianic Jewish congregation for years and it was the best congregation experience I've had. But that system is also not monolithic.

I don't keep up with all the labels this world's religious men place on the many differing religious sects and franchises which exist in this world God placed me in.

Nor do I partake of the popular religious tradition of choosing to listen to one religious' philosopher of this world over another and adopting them as mine. So no, I have not sought out a religion, and adopted it.

This tradition of taking council from "other voices", which in my view started in the garden, and then labeling the group of folks who adopt their council, is the cause of many problems in my view and is how the prince of this world deceives.

From Gamaliel to the Council of Nicaea, to Valentinus, Huss, Calvin, Wesley, Miller, White, Smith, Russell, Rosen, and the list goes on and on.

Paul tells a member of the Body of Christ in good standing, under the New Priesthood, the following.

2 Tim. 3: 12 Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution. 13 But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived. 14 But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them; 15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith "which is in Christ Jesus." 16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

So why would a "man of God" seek council from other men they don't even know, even those who come in Christ's name, or call Jesus Lord, Lord, given that God has given both you and I His Oracles, and the Testimony of the Christ Himself? Especially given Jesus' Warning about the future.

Matt. 24: 4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. 5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I (Jesus) am Christ; and shall deceive many.

I find it fascinating that in this warning of the future, Jesus wasn't concerned that HIS People would be deceived by atheists, Muslims or Buddhists.

He is specifically warning about "Christians". Paul warns of the exact same thing.

2 Cor. 11: 13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. 14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. 15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

So I have "Settled" into the belief that the Christ, the Rock of Israel, and HIS Father are worthy of listening to and "Yielding myself" servants to obey. Not just their Words that can used to promote or preserve one or another religious sect or Philosophy of this world I was placed in, but "Every" Word inspired by God.

But Jesus answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

This is why I advocate for the discussions we are having. Just you, me and the Oracles of God. I believe we have all been influenced by this world's many religions, their high days, sabbaths, judgments, traditions etc., just as men were in Jesus' Time. And through His Word, and seeking His Truth from our heart as our motive, (As opposed to simply trying to justify preconceived philosophy), that God will see the desire of our heart, and lead us into HIS Truth, which this World cannot accept.

So I understand the tradition of labeling me, but my honoring God in His Sabbath Commandment isn't because of the teaching of Rosen, or because of a sermon I heard from a Messianic Jew. It was based on the God Inspired Holy Scriptures Paul told me were profitable for the man of God, regarding instruction in righteousness.

I'll leave this for now. My basic sense is that you found your place and are using Scripture at times correctly and at other times incorrectly to substantiate it. You're hardly alone in this.

That is certainly a possibility. Or perhaps in your listening to the sermons of other voices, you have adopted religious philosophies which don't align with all Scriptures.

This is why it's so good to have these discussions among men that are seeking truth, and not simply promoting an adopted religious theory.

 

[ralliann]

In every case, it is the religious Jews of Paul's Time he is speaking to.

Yes, so we should be looking at this from their point of view then to get a better understanding.

They are speaking about "works of the Law" "for Justification". Works of the Law the Pharisees, like their fathers, were still promoting.

Are there work's of the law that the people were to keep, and those of the priesthood? Do your see any distinction there (the vail divided the "one tabernacle")? Ex 26:6, 36:13
("parables of Herews for two covenants)

Ex 26:33 And thou shalt hang up the vail under the taches, that thou mayest bring in thither within the vail the ark of the testimony: and the vail shall divide unto you between the holy place and the most holy. (earthly ministry/tabernacle vs heavenly ministry in the heavenly tabernacle) holy and then holy, holy. Two portions of inheritance to the firstborn, of which they have above their brethern.

IMO, I think this is important to understanding the mindset of the Pharisees. Both then, as well as now. They still claim to be a "priestly" people. Priesthood was very important both then, but especially now.

These were rebellious, disobedient, stiff-necked people who full well rejected the Commandments of God so they could keep their own traditions. And yet, they Justified themselves by sacrificing animals for 40 years in the wilderness,

This, IMO is where we should be looking. Likeness to those in the wilderness, as examples.
The over arching principals should be always kept in mind. "HEIRS" The 2 covenants are inheritances, and God is fulfilling those. The prized status of firstborn, as an heir as well needs to be in mind. That is what, at least for myself is sorely missing from this discussion.

Judaism, acknowledges the sin of the golden calf, denied them the priesthood. The priesthood was a very prized status, so prized it produced jealousy, over status of "holiness". see Korah's rebellion ( Nu. 16:3, "this whole congregation is holy, you sons take to much on yourselves") .
A kingdom of priests, a nation which is firstborn.
So the loss of the priesthood due to sin, how do you see that?
Is it temporary, permanant? Would it be considered to being "disinheriting' them form it? at this time the order of Aaron as high priest was in place. Since the burning bush he was called as an HIGHPRIEST. He was Moses mouthpiece to the people. No Levitical priests existed yet. These ended up ministering in the 1st tabernacle of the congregation.
After Israel sinned (the tribe of Levi did not) the other tribes were passed over (at the very least, for the priesthood). The Levites were taken instead, of the firstborn. They specifically are representing them, in the tabernacle (originally intended for the firstborn). A loss of status. A portion, but not double above their brethren.

Then when they refused to go in and take the land, in rebellion against Moses and God, that generation was flat out "disinherited" from that the land as well.

So where would you, (even if you would) place these losses, likened to Ishmael?

Ishmael was blessed, because he was Abraham's seed, A great nation, 12 princes. Though not the heir with his son Isaac.
Priesthood is still an important position within Judaism. On what basis does Judaism call themselves a "PRIESTLY" people? It is very important to them. And it seems to me, among Messianic judaism as well.

 

[Clare73]

The Law (whatever commandments He says still exist - obviously excluding the weak & unprofitable/useless fleshly one for the old Priesthood) is no longer weak through the flesh for those who walk in Spirit in the new Great High Priesthood of Jesus Christ.

Decalogue + per Rom13:9 "if any other commandment" which language assumes there is. Paul is summoning us to do our homework.

Actually, no homework is required, because no matter what law it is, it is fulfilled in loving, whether you know about the law or not.
That's what is so great about the one rule, it is the fulfillment of them all, "whatever other commandment there may be" (Ro 13:9).

We should be students of His commandments - His will - His instructions. If we keep His commandments, we love Him (John14; 1John5). If we keep His commandments, we know that we know Him (1John2:3-4). Knowing Him & Jesus Christ whom He sent is eternal life (John17:3).

It's always been about this - ask Adam 1 about his failure. It will always be about this - ask Adam 2 about His success (Heb5:7-8).

Christ's righteousness was not by law-keeping, righteousness has always been by faith (Gal 3:11),
the law was to reveal sin and its remedy.
Christ's righteousness was at birth as Adam's was at creation, which righteousness Christ did not lose by disobedience as did Adam, and by which obedience, even to the cross, he was made complete (perfect).

We should be helping one another to ponder His Law, not fighting about it. Our walk in Spirit would be easier. Our advance to maturity would be quicker (Heb5:12-6:4). More of us would be fulfilling Messianic Law (Gal6:1-2).

Keeping in mind that, according to the NT, walking in the Spirit fulfills the law in us (Ro 8:4), and whatever other commandment there may be, by one rule: love of God and neighbor as self (Ro 13:8-9).

Let's not minimize that one rule of obedience which fulfills all law, in favor of searching out laws with which we are already complying by love of God and neighbor as self.

 

[GDL]

I don't keep up with all the labels this world's religious men place on the many differing religious sects and franchises which exist in this world God placed me in.

Nor do I partake of the popular religious tradition of choosing to listen to one religious' philosopher of this world over another and adopting them as mine. So no, I have not sought out a religion, and adopted it.

This tradition of taking council from "other voices", which in my view started in the garden, and then labeling the group of folks who adopt their council, is the cause of many problems in my view and is how the prince of this world deceives.

From Gamaliel to the Council of Nicaea, to Valentinus, Huss, Calvin, Wesley, Miller, White, Smith, Russell, Rosen, and the list goes on and on.

Paul tells a member of the Body of Christ in good standing, under the New Priesthood, the following.

2 Tim. 3: 12 Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution. 13 But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived. 14 But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them; 15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith "which is in Christ Jesus." 16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

So why would a "man of God" seek council from other men they don't even know, even those who come in Christ's name, or call Jesus Lord, Lord, given that God has given both you and I His Oracles, and the Testimony of the Christ Himself? Especially given Jesus' Warning about the future.

Matt. 24: 4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. 5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I (Jesus) am Christ; and shall deceive many.

I find it fascinating that in this warning of the future, Jesus wasn't concerned that HIS People would be deceived by atheists, Muslims or Buddhists.

He is specifically warning about "Christians". Paul warns of the exact same thing.

2 Cor. 11: 13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. 14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. 15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

So I have "Settled" into the belief that the Christ, the Rock of Israel, and HIS Father are worthy of listening to and "Yielding myself" servants to obey. Not just their Words that can used to promote or preserve one or another religious sect or Philosophy of this world I was placed in, but "Every" Word inspired by God.

But Jesus answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

This is why I advocate for the discussions we are having. Just you, me and the Oracles of God. I believe we have all been influenced by this world's many religions, their high days, sabbaths, judgments, traditions etc., just as men were in Jesus' Time. And through His Word, and seeking His Truth from our heart as our motive, (As opposed to simply trying to justify preconceived philosophy), that God will see the desire of our heart, and lead us into HIS Truth, which this World cannot accept.

So I understand the tradition of labeling me, but my honoring God in His Sabbath Commandment isn't because of the teaching of Rosen, or because of a sermon I heard from a Messianic Jew. It was based on the God Inspired Holy Scriptures Paul told me were profitable for the man of God, regarding instruction in righteousness.



That is certainly a possibility. Or perhaps in your listening to the sermons of other voices, you have adopted religious philosophies which don't align with all Scriptures.

This is why it's so good to have these discussions among men that are seeking truth, and not simply promoting an adopted religious theory.

Good enough. I don't like the labels either. Even within the labels there are many variations within the theme.

We've all been influenced to varying degrees. Some of us have shed the bad influences to varying degrees.

Similar to you, I pulled out of the theological camp I was mainly in a few decades ago. I literally moved to an island with the Text and some powerful digital tools to work in it, had some good Greek exegesis training behind me, had been ordained as a Pastor, had taught for a few years, but the call was just to get back to the Text, so I did. I got pulled back into teaching a home church, which was not my real desire, so I told the few that my conditions were that I am doing my own studies in the Word, have cleared out as much of the theological cobwebs as I could, and we were going to simply read and study the Text no matter where it took us and what beliefs we held. I was just going to show what the language says, and I didn't want anyone making me an authority - He, His Spirit, His Word are the only highest authority - so we were going to take from it whatever it/He says. A bit over 3 years ago I left the island and it's simply back into His Word for me. It/He is my guide and whatever He says that I think I have an understanding of, and I think He calls me to do, that I do.

We have what will judge us John12:48. What and who else is important in this regard? 1Cor4:3-4.

As you know, there is a freedom in Christ and only in willing obedience to Him do we experience that freedom. When I first received Him and turned to Him, I asked Him for one thing - to teach me the Truth. I was completely sick of the "experts" in the world selling us their supposed truth. I knew the only place it could be found is from Him John14:6; John17:17 and more.

 

[GDL]

Actually, no homework is required, because no matter what law it is, it is fulfilled in loving, whether you know about the law or not.
That's what is so great about the one rule (Ro 13:9), it is the fulfillment of them all, whatever other commandment there may be.

Disagreed, but I've been through this topic of discussion too many times. Yes, to do the summary is to do them all. The details that make up the summary is part of how we know we are doing the summary. Too many reject the details and then tell us they're doing the summary.

Christ's righteousness was not by law-keeping, righteousness has always been by faith (Gal 3:11),
the law was to reveal sin and its remedy.
Christ's righteousness was at birth as Adam's was at creation, which righteousness Christ did not lose by disobedience as did Adam, and by which obedience, even to the cross, he was made complete (perfect).

Yet Christ was born under law and faithfully kept the law and when He struggled with God's will in the garden before the cross, sweating as it were drops of blood, entreating His disciples to stay awake with Him, telling them the spirit is willing but the flesh is weak, requesting that the cup be removed from Him, He deferred to God's will, learned obedience from all He suffered, and was Perfected.

Law keeping and beyond is in the equation of faithful obedience. Love is commanded now as it was then. Law written on hearts equates to naturally keeping Law. In all this talk about "works of law" I rarely if ever see someone mention that Law written in hearts makes the conscience functional and law keeping natural. This is called the "work of the law" - "work" being singular - work of the law meaning work the law does.

Law is not a 4-letter word. What if Law is no longer weak through the flesh - what work can it do now that it's being administered by the current and eternal Great High Priest and the Spirit of God under God's grace?

Keeping in mind that, according to the NT, walking in the Spirit fulfills the law in us (Ro 8:4), and whatever other commandment there may be, by one rule: love of God and neighbor as self (Ro 13:8-9).

Let's not minimize that one rule of obedience which fulfills all law, in favor of searching out laws with which we are already complying by love of God and neighbor as self.

If we wring out this area of Scripture, who and what is fulfilling the statute of law in us? It's passive, so the law statute is being fulfilled/completed in us but clearly as we do something. The Spirit is leading us and we are walking in Spirit and we are doing several things as commanded in Rom8. IOW, is it really just the Spirit that fulfills/completes the law statute in us? Do we play no part?

 

[ralliann]

Disagreed, but I've been through this topic of discussion too many times. Yes, to do the summary is to do them all. The details that make up the summary is how we know we are doing the summary. Too many reject the details and then tell us they're doing the summary.

Yet Christ was born under law and faithfully kept the law and when He struggled with God's will in the garden before the cross, sweating as it were drops of blood, entreating His disciples to stay awake with Him, telling them the spirit is willing but the flesh is weak, requesting that the cup be removed from Him, He deferred to God's will, learned obedience from all He suffered, and was Perfected.

Law keeping and beyond is in the equation of faithful obedience. Love is commanded now as it was then. Law written on hearts equates to naturally keeping Law. In all this talk about "works of law" I rarely if ever see someone mention that Law written in hearts makes the conscience functional and law keeping natural. This is called the "work of the law" - "work" being singular - work of the law meaning work the law does.

Law is not a 4-letter word. What if Law is no longer weak through the flesh - what work can it do now that it's being administered by the current and eternal Great High Priest and the Spirit of God under God's grace?

If we wring out this area of Scripture, who and what is fulfilling the statute of law in us? It's passive, so the law statute is being fulfilled/completed in us as we do something. The Spirit is leading us and we are walking in Spirit and we are doing several things as commanded in Rom8. IOW, is it really just the Spirit that fulfills/completes the law statute in us? Do we play no part?

What is mean't by whole law? It certainly implies "law" which is "more", increased, than OTHER LAW, that is lacking WHOLE. What law was WHOLE, OR MORE that the circumcision was indebted to keep?

 

[GDL]

What is mean't by whole law? It certainly implies "law" which is "more", increased, than OTHER LAW, that is lacking WHOLE. What law was WHOLE, OR MORE that the circumcision was indebted to keep?

"Whole Law"?