Why would God have to punish the wicked for eternity?

[Bible Highlighter]

Your reasoning is faulty.

It’s easy to say that, but you have not demonstrated how my reasoning is faulty.

I believe Jesus vs, an anonymous person online.

Even good friends in the Lord can have faulty theology.
I have changed theologically on 21 things Scripture over the years.

See this thread here:

What theological things were you mistaken about in your growing knowledge of God's Word?

What theological things were you mistaken about in your growing knowledge of God's Word? Here is my list. #1. I used to believe we had to follow the Old Testament laws in addition to the New Testament laws. Until one day I discovered verses that the New Covenant began with Christ's death and...

www.christianforums.com

Can you say in all honesty that you were ever wrong about anything in the Bible?
Also, it does not matter to me if a believer is anonymous online with me. If they share a Scripture of truth that I did not know before, it does not matter who they are. The Scripture is true regardless of my knowing that person who shared that Scripture with me.

Jesus said the man was in hades, which was a name for a place we call hell, and he said he was being tormented in flames and begged Abraham to send Lazarus to dip his finger in water and cool his tongue. Do you think a person in that circumstance would be thinking rationally or logically?

Well, if you read what I wrote, you would realize that I do see it as one possibility that the rich man was in an actual flame (or fire), but it would be an other worldly flame and not an earthly flame because if it was a normal fire like here on Earth, he would be screaming too much to be able to carry on a normal conversation with a person. I mean stop and think rationally a moment. If you seen a person who was just put into a blazing bomb fire and you tried to talk with them, do you think they would be able to speak to you normally like the rich man did? Nowhere does the text say he was screaming. This would be a natural reaction to the pain caused by being burned alive. Yet, no screaming is mentioned. Yet, Hollywood, and hell houses at churches make up the story that the wicked are screaming from the pain from being in hell fire.

As I said the only 5 ECF who quoted the story

What is ECF?

considered it to be factual.

I believe the story of Lazarus and the Rich man to be a true and factual story.

Take it or leave it. Jesus would not have told the story if it did not have some application to his immediate audience and thus to us. And that doesn't mean simply ignore it.

Where did I say for us to simply ignore this story? I didn’t. I believe it is a warning to let other people that it is a place of torments that nobody should desire to go to.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I addressed your 2 "points" before more than once.

Post #’s?
If even if you did so multiple times (of which I do not recall), why not do so here so as to help other believers?

Please show me from scripture that John got the chronology wrong and Rev 21:4 and 21:8 should be before Rev 20:11-15. John's immediate audience the 7 churches of Asia [modern Turkey] could only understand it exactly as written. They didn't have any denomination assumptions/presuppositions.

No. Revelation 21:4 (Which describes God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away) happens after Revelation 20:11-15.

Revelation 21:8 is talking about those types of sinners who are cast into the Lake of Fire and this aligns with Revelation 20:14-15.

In Revelation 20:11-15: The earth is in the process of passing away, and the Judgment takes place, and it is followed up by those being cast into the Lake of Fire.

Revelation 20:11-15

11 “And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.​

12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.​

13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.​

14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.​

15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.”​

Note: Verse 11 is saying that the Earth is in the process of passing away.

Revelation 20:11 (AMP)
And I saw a great white throne and Him who was seated upon it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them [for this heaven and earth are passing away].

Revelation 21:1 says that the Earth (the Old Earth) then passes away. John then sees a new Earth. But I believe the Judgment is on the New Earth because the Old Earth is passing away (Unless of course the Judgment happens in some other dimension - which seems unlikely because the Bible does not talk about this).

But no. I don’t believe Revelation 21:4, and Revelation 21:8 happens before Revelation 20:11-15.
That is your assumption that would not be true.

 

[Der Alte]

* * *
Can you say in all honesty that you were ever wrong about anything in the Bible?
Also, it does not matter to me if a believer is anonymous online with me. If they share a Scripture of truth that I did not know before, it does not matter who they are. The Scripture is true regardless of my knowing that person who shared that Scripture with me.

Nothing of any consequence. I did not grow up in a church altho I attended Sunday School sporadically during my childhood. I became a Christian in my mid 20s when LBJ was president.

Well, if you read what I wrote, you would realize that I do see it as one possibility that the rich man was in an actual flame (or fire), but it would be an other worldly flame and not an earthly flame because if it was a normal fire like here on Earth, he would be screaming too much to be able to carry on a normal conversation with a person. I mean stop and think rationally a moment. If you seen a person who was just put into a blazing bomb fire and you tried to talk with them, do you think they would be able to speak to you normally like the rich man did? Nowhere does the text say he was screaming. This would be a natural reaction to the pain caused by being burned alive. Yet, no screaming is mentioned. Yet, Hollywood, and hell houses at churches make up the story that the wicked are screaming from the pain from being in hell fire.

Luke 16:24​

(24) And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.​

The word translated "cried" only occurs one time in the NT, this vs.
You have never read in the NT that the wicked will be cast into a furnace of fire where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth?

What is ECF?

Early Church Fathers. Immediate followers of the disciples.
1) Irenaeus Against Heresies Book II Chapter XXXIV.-Souls Can Be Recognised in the Separate State, and are Immortal Although They Once Had a Beginning
2) Clement of Alexandria [A.D. 153-193-217] The Instructor [Paedagogus] Book 1
3) Tertullian IX A Treatise On The Soul Chap. VII [A.D. 145-220.
4) The Epistles Of Cyprian [A.D. 200-258] Epistle 54 To Cornelius, Concerning Fortunatus And Felicissimus, Or Against The Heretics
5) Methodius . [A.D. 260-312] XIX he Discourse on the Resurrection. Part III. [A.D. 260-312]

 

[parousia70]

Matthew 25: 46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal

This simply states that the second death unlike the first will be permanent/everlasting. No more salvation. Only the righteous shall receive life eternal, not the damned (they are aware no more).

So God rewards the atheist by giving him exactly the after death fate he is expecting?

Seems like a weird "punishment".

 

[timothyu]

So God rewards the atheist by giving him exactly the after death fate he is expecting?

Kinda like reaping what you sow.

 

[Der Alte]

Matthew 25: 46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal
This simply states that the second death unlike the first will be permanent/everlasting. No more salvation. Only the righteous shall receive life eternal, not the damned (they are aware no more).

This view is contradicted by Rev 22:11
The last book, last chapter

Revelation 22:11​

(11) He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.​

Ten more vss. The End. There is no more death, Rev 21:4, no more salvation only "He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still:" Where are these unjust and filthy?

Revelation 22:15​

(15) For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.​

cf. Rev 21:8

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Luke 16:24

(24) And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.​

The word translated "cried" only occurs one time in the NT,

The rich man was crying out (shouting) to get the attention of Abraham.

You have never read in the NT that the wicked will be cast into a furnace of fire where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth?

It does not say they were there inside the Lake of Fire whereby they are wailing and gnashing of teeth. In context, it is talking about them being cast into the Lake of Fire. However, I am not discounting the possibility that they may scream in the Lake of Fire for a certain amount of time before they are annihilated. But the context here is the casting them in.

Matthew 13:41-42
The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Matthew 13:49-50
So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just, And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Early Church Fathers. Immediate followers of the disciples.
1) Irenaeus Against Heresies Book II Chapter XXXIV.-Souls Can Be Recognised in the Separate State, and are Immortal Although They Once Had a Beginning
2) Clement of Alexandria [A.D. 153-193-217] The Instructor [Paedagogus] Book 1
3) Tertullian IX A Treatise On The Soul Chap. VII [A.D. 145-220.
4) The Epistles Of Cyprian [A.D. 200-258] Epistle 54 To Cornelius, Concerning Fortunatus And Felicissimus, Or Against The Heretics
5) Methodius . [A.D. 260-312] XIX he Discourse on the Resurrection. Part III. [A.D. 260-312]

Irenaeus

Irenaeus was a pastor in Lyons, France, who wrote a polemic titled Against Heresies in about A.D. 185.

He supported the authority of the bishop as a ruler over many churches.

He defended church tradition beyond what the Scripture allows. For this reason he is claimed by the Roman Catholic Church as one of their own.

He taught the Catholic heresy of “real presence,” saying, “The Eucharist becomes the body of Christ.”

Clement

From 190 to 202, Clement headed the heretical school of Alexandria, Egypt, founded by Pantaenus, which intermingled the Greek philosophy of Plato with Christianity.

Clement helped develop the false doctrine of purgatory and believed that most men would eventually be saved.

He denied the unique Deity of Jesus and His atonement, saying, “The Logos of God became man so that you may learn from man how man may become God” (cited from Bernard McGinn, The Presence of God, Vol. 1 - “The Foundations of Mysticism,” p. 107). Jesus was, therefore, merely the supreme model toward the path of divinity.

Tertullian

Tertullian lived in Carthage in North Africa (located on the coast of the Mediterranean Sea in modern Tunisia, between Libya and Algeria).

Though he fought against Gnosticism, he also exalted the authority of the church beyond that allowed by Scripture. He taught that the church’s authority comes through apostolic succession.

He believed that the bread of the Lord’s Supper was Christ and worried about dropping crumbs of it on the ground.

He adopted Montanism, believing that Montanus spoke prophecies by inspiration of God.

He taught that widows who remarried committed fornication. Thus he exalted the condition of virginity in an unscriptural way, and this heresy was adopted by the Roman Catholic in its monastic system of unmarried monks and nuns and in its doctrine that priests cannot marry. The New Testament encourages younger widows to remarry (1 Tim. 5:14).

He taught that baptism is for the forgiveness of sins.

He classified sins into three categories and believed in confession of sins to a bishop.

He said that the human soul was seen in a vision as “tender, light, and of the colour of air.” He claimed that all human souls were in Adam and are transmitted to us with the taint of original sin upon them.

He taught that there was a time when the Son of God did not exist and when God was not a Father.

He taught that Mary was the second Eve who by her obedience remedied the disobedience of the first Eve. This was a stepping stone toward the Roman Catholic Church’s many heresies about Mary.

Cyprian

Cyprian was the “bishop of Carthage” in Africa.

He was tyrannical and wealthy and he wrote against the Novatian churches for their efforts to maintain a pure church membership. He didn’t care if church members gave evidence of the new birth as long as they conformed to external rituals.

Cyprian defended the unscriptural doctrine that certain bishops had authority over many churches and that all pastors must submit to them.

He supported the heresy of infant baptism.

No wonder Cyprian was made one of the “saints” of the Catholic Church.

Source:

Church Fathers: A Door to Rome

A Survey of Young Fundamentalists - Article by David Cloud

www.wayoflife.org

 

[JulieB67]

Revelation 21:8 is talking about those types of sinners who are cast into the Lake of Fire and this aligns with Revelation 20:14-15.

I've mentioned that before as well. That Christ is just restating what "will" happen to those at Judgement Day. For some reason some people can't see that. Christ has already said "it is done".

 

[Bible Highlighter]

This view is contradicted by Rev 22:11
The last book, last chapter

Revelation 22:11​

(11) He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.​

Ten more vss. The End. There is no more death, Rev 21:4, no more salvation only "He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still:" Where are these unjust and filthy?

Revelation 22:15​

(15) For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.​

cf. Rev 21:4

Much of the Bible is not strictly chronological.

Verses 1-5 is a description of the New Earth (This is in the future).

Verses 6-7 is John experiencing the vision in his present time.

Verses 8-9 is John attempts to bow down to the angel but the angel refuses it (this is in John’s present time).

Verses 10-13 are things the Lord says to John in his present time.

Revelation 22:14-15 says
Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

Verse 14 is a message for all believers and it speaks to their life and keeping God’s commands and being able to enter through the gates of the city, etcetera.

Verse 15 is a continued message for all believers that is tied to their not keeping his commands and they are in sin and they be outside the gates of the city. There is no chronological connection being made here. But we must assume verses like Revelation 21:8 happen later to these wicked people who are outside the gates because the Lake of Fire is the final fate of the wicked.

 

[Der Alte]

The rich man was crying out (shouting) to get the attention of Abraham.
It does not say they were there inside the Lake of Fire whereby they are wailing and gnashing of teeth. In context, it is talking about them being cast into the Lake of Fire. However, I am not discounting the possibility that they may scream in the Lake of Fire for a certain amount of time before they are annihilated. But the context here is the casting them in.
Matthew 13:41-42
The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
Matthew 13:49-50
So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just, And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
Irenaeus
Irenaeus was a pastor in Lyons, France, who wrote a polemic titled Against Heresies in about A.D. 185.
He supported the authority of the bishop as a ruler over many churches.
He defended church tradition beyond what the Scripture allows. For this reason he is claimed by the Roman Catholic Church as one of their own.
He taught the Catholic heresy of “real presence,” saying, “The Eucharist becomes the body of Christ.”
Clement
From 190 to 202, Clement headed the heretical school of Alexandria, Egypt, founded by Pantaenus, which intermingled the Greek philosophy of Plato with Christianity.
Clement helped develop the false doctrine of purgatory and believed that most men would eventually be saved.
He denied the unique Deity of Jesus and His atonement, saying, “The Logos of God became man so that you may learn from man how man may become God” (cited from Bernard McGinn, The Presence of God, Vol. 1 - “The Foundations of Mysticism,” p. 107). Jesus was, therefore, merely the supreme model toward the path of divinity.
Tertullian
Tertullian lived in Carthage in North Africa (located on the coast of the Mediterranean Sea in modern Tunisia, between Libya and Algeria).
Though he fought against Gnosticism, he also exalted the authority of the church beyond that allowed by Scripture. He taught that the church’s authority comes through apostolic succession.
He believed that the bread of the Lord’s Supper was Christ and worried about dropping crumbs of it on the ground.
He adopted Montanism, believing that Montanus spoke prophecies by inspiration of God.
He taught that widows who remarried committed fornication. Thus he exalted the condition of virginity in an unscriptural way, and this heresy was adopted by the Roman Catholic in its monastic system of unmarried monks and nuns and in its doctrine that priests cannot marry. The New Testament encourages younger widows to remarry (1 Tim. 5:14).
He taught that baptism is for the forgiveness of sins.
He classified sins into three categories and believed in confession of sins to a bishop.
He said that the human soul was seen in a vision as “tender, light, and of the colour of air.” He claimed that all human souls were in Adam and are transmitted to us with the taint of original sin upon them.
He taught that there was a time when the Son of God did not exist and when God was not a Father.
He taught that Mary was the second Eve who by her obedience remedied the disobedience of the first Eve. This was a stepping stone toward the Roman Catholic Church’s many heresies about Mary.
Cyprian
Cyprian was the “bishop of Carthage” in Africa.
He was tyrannical and wealthy and he wrote against the Novatian churches for their efforts to maintain a pure church membership. He didn’t care if church members gave evidence of the new birth as long as they conformed to external rituals.
Cyprian defended the unscriptural doctrine that certain bishops had authority over many churches and that all pastors must submit to them.
He supported the heresy of infant baptism.
No wonder Cyprian was made one of the “saints” of the Catholic Church.
Source:

Church Fathers: A Door to Rome

A Survey of Young Fundamentalists - Article by David Cloud

www.wayoflife.org

At first you did not know what the ECF were now you want to instruct me? None of this commentary is relevant to the topic. The comments about the ECF are meaningless without proper citation. This guy said this, that guy said that some other guy said something else. See my post where I listed the ECF for proper citation. .

 

[Der Alte]

Much of the Bible is not strictly chronological.
Verses 1-5 is a description of the New Earth (This is in the future).
Verses 6-7 is John experiencing the vision in his present time.
Verses 8-9 is John attempts to bow down to the angel but the angel refuses it (this is in John’s present time).
Verses 10-13 are things the Lord says to John in his present time.
Revelation 22:14-15 says
Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
Verse 14 is a message for all believers and it speaks to their life and keeping God’s commands and being able to enter through the gates of the city, etcetera.
Verse 15 is a continued message for all believers that is tied to their not keeping his commands and they are in sin and they be outside the gates of the city. There is no chronological connection being made here. But we must assume verses like Revelation 21:8 happen later to these wicked people who are outside the gates because the Lake of Fire is the final fate of the wicked.

Sorry, I am not too interested in the unsupported assumptions/opinions of anonymous posters online. How would the former pagan Christians in the 7 cities to whom Rev was initially addressed understand this? Unlike many people today they had no denominational assumptions/presuppositions to bias their understanding. They would not have understood that certain verses actually "belonged" before or after certain other verses.
According to Rev 22:11 and 22:15 the Lake of Fire is NOT the final fate of the wicked.

 

[DavidPT]

Thinking out loud here. So, not addressed to anyone in particular, yet something for those that think the Bible supports ECT to seriously think about since the Bible is not full of contradictions.

Since the tree of life is obviously connected with living forever, I wonder how those who think ECT is Biblical in regards to humans think humans cast into the LOF are going to have access to the tree of life so that they too can live forever in order to be tortured forever?

Genesis 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

It says it there in black and white, that it is not possible to live forever unless one eats from the tree of life. Just one time, though? Eat from it just one time, thus become an instant immortal? In light of the following that does not seem likely. But even if it involves eating from it just one time, thus becoming an instant immortal, nowhere in Revelation does it ever say the lost get to eat from it.

Revelation 2:7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

Revelation 22:2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

Revelation 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.


Which one of these passages should we assume is including the lost getting right to the tree of life? Revelation 2:7 indicates the tree of life is in the midst of the paradise of God, where Revelation 22:2 then tells us is meaning in the new Jerusalem in the new heavens and new earth. Take note what else Revelation 22:2 tells us---there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month---and that this is involving context having to do with eternity. Which then obviously means since there is no end to eternity, this is meaning forever when it says---which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month.

But the lost are somehow going to be tortured forever even though they can't do the following at any time---put forth their hand, and take of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever? No wonder we are told the wages of sin is death not eternal life. No wonder Jesus told us that God will destroy both body and soul in hell. No wonder we are told in Revelation 20, in regards to humans cast into the LOF, it is the 2nd death.

But let's just contradict what Genesis 3:22 declares, that in order to live forever, one has to first take of the tree of life, and eat, in order to live for ever. And let's ignore that the tree of life is still relevant in eternity and that none of the lost cast into the LOF could possibly have access to it in order to live forever so that they can be tortured forever. Whatever the tree of life is, whether a literal tree or something else, it is obviously impossible to live forever unless one has access to it and can eat from it. Unless one wants to propose that God flat out lied to us in Genesis 3:22. If He lied to us per that verse, why trust anything He says after that?

 

[timothyu]

It says it there in black and white, that it is not possible to live forever unless one eats from the tree of life. Just one time, though?

If you look at Rev the water flows past the trees of life to continuously feed those of the Kingdom. That is why man was cut off from the tree in Eden so man would no longer live forever. If we were removed from the tree once because we had become adversarial, why would we now be given access again if we were still adversarial. There is no eternal life for he rebellious.

 

[DavidPT]

If you look at Rev the water flows past the trees of life to continuously feed those of the Kingdom. That is why man was cut off from the tree in Eden so man would no longer live forever. If we were removed from the tree once because we had become adversarial, why would we now be given access again if we were still adversarial. There is no eternal life for he rebellious.

Do you, like I do, conclude that it is the continual eating from the tree of life that allows one to live forever rather than eat from it just one time, thus becoming an instant immortal that can't be reversed? God never told Adam one single time prior to the fall that the tree of life was also forbidden to be eaten from. He said this instead.

Genesis 2:16 ¶And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.


I would think every tree in the garden includes the tree of life. And since only one tree in the garden was off limits, and that it wasn't the tree of life, this means Adam could also freely eat from the tree of life, and that he did. But once access to the tree of life was blocked, Adam and everyone else can't help but die eventually. Which then means in the future one needs access to it on a continual basis in order to literally live forever, something not possible for those cast into the LOF.

 

[timothyu]

Do you, like I do, conclude that it is the continual eating from the tree of life that allows one to live forever rather than eat from it just one time, thus becoming an instant immortal that can't be reversed?

Sounds about right. Only when they were removed from the tree did they die. The river and trees of life are also continuous, not a here drink and eat this and go enjoy eternity

 

[lukeh]

In other words you want to post your unsupported opinion without having it questioned or refuted. Where is sinful man told to use our biased, limited reasoning to explain God's word? You conclude "using scripture only" although you have not quoted one vs. of scripture yourself.
I will take Jesus' word for it.

EOB Matthew:25:46 When he will answer them, saying: ‘Amen, I tell you: as much as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’ 46 These [ones on the left vs. 41] will go away into eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] punishment, [κόλασις/kolasis] but the righteous into eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] life.”[EOB, p. 96]​

…..Greek has been the language of the Eastern Greek Orthodox church since its inception, 2000 years ago +/-. Note, the native Greek speaking Eastern Orthodox Greek scholars, translators of the EOB, linked below, translated “aionios,” in Matt 25:46, as “eternal,” NOT “age.”
…..I doubt there is anyone better qualified than the team of native Greek speaking scholars, translators of the Eastern Greek Orthodox Bible [EOB], quoted above and below, to know the correct translation of the Greek in the N.T.
Link to EOB online:

The New Testament ( The Eastern-Greek Orthodox Bible) : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

The New Testament (The Eastern-Greek Orthodox Bible)

archive.org

…..The Greek word “kolasis” occurs only twice in the N.T., 1st occurrence Matt 25:46, above, and 2nd occurrence 1 John 4:18., below.

EOB 1 John 4:18 There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear, because fear is connected with punishment.[κόλασις/kolasis] But the one who fears is not yet perfect in love.[EOB, p. 518]​

In the EOB the Greek word “kolasis” is translated “punishment” in both Matt 25:46 and 1 John 4:18.
…..Some badly informed folks claim “kolasis” really means “prune” or “correction.”
Sorry, that is impossible, both “prune” and “correction” are verbs. “Kolasis” is a noun. A noun cannot be translated as a verb.
Also according to the EOB Greek scholars “kolasis” means “punishment.”
Note: in 1 John 4:18 there is no correction, the one with “kolasis” is not made perfect. Thus “kolasis” does not/cannot mean “correction.”
The word “correction” occurs one time in the N.T.
2 Timothy 3:16 ἐπανόρθωσις/epanorthosis. It looks nothing like kolasis.
…..It is acknowledged that modern Greek differs from koine Greek but I am confident that the native Greek speaking EOB scholars, supported by 2000 years +/- of uninterrupted Greek scholarship, are more than competent enough to know the correct translation of obsolete Greek words which may have changed in meaning or are no longer in use and to translate them correctly. Much as English speaking scholars today know the meaning of obsolete English words which occur in, e.g. the 1611 KJV and can define them correctly.
= = = = =

Matthew 7:21-23​

(21) Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.​

(22) Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?​

(23) And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.​

Neither the Father, Himself, nor Jesus, Himself, ever said that all mankind will be saved, or enter the kingdom of heaven.
As a matter of fact, Jesus said, “Not every one …shall enter into the kingdom of heaven;” Then Jesus said, “Many” [NOT a few], “will say to me in that day,” i.e. Judgement day, “Lord, Lord, have we not … in thy name done many wonderful works?”
Then Jesus will say to those “many” “I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.” When Jesus says “never” He means “never” not someday by and by.

Can I ask exactly who you believe goes to heaven and who doesn't go to heaven? Please

 

[lukeh]

The Greek word is aionios, which is open to interpretation. It is the adjective form of aion which simply means "age". Aionios could simply mean "long-lasting" or "lasting for an age" or "for life". It is true some could translate it as "everlasting", but that's not the only possible meaning.

See, this would make the most sense to me. I will probably get absolutely stomped on for this but personally I believe 'the kingdom of heaven' is within you and is something you can unlock.

 

[FireDragon76]

See, this would make the most sense to me. I will probably get absolutely stomped on for this but personally I believe 'the kingdom of heaven' is within you and is something you can unlock.

I believe "The Kingdom of God" is mystical, so I would tend to agree. The Kingdom of God reflects a prophetic vision for the world. Few Christians have really understood this in our own culture, but people like Ephraim the Syrian or Francis of Assisi understood it.

 

[lukeh]

I believe "The Kingdom of God" is mystical, so I would tend to agree. The Kingdom of God reflects a prophetic vision for the world. Few Christians have really understood this in our own culture, but people like Ephraim the Syrian or Francis of Assisi understood it.

Those names are new to me so if you could point me in the right direction, I'd like to take a look. Please.

 

[FireDragon76]

Those names are new to me so if you could point me in the right direction, I'd like to take a look. Please.

Ephrem the Syrian was an elder, preacher, and Christian mystical theologian that lived around the time of Constantine, in Edessa, near modern-day Turkey. Like Jesus, he spoke and wrote in Aramaic. He wrote alot about God's love and also is an early witness to the doctrine of apocatastasis, or universal restoration.

Ephrem the Syrian - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Francis of Assisi was the son of an Umbrian merchant that sold everything he had, lived as a beggar, and founded what later became the Franciscan order. He also wrote the first work in vernacular Italian, Laudato si, also known as the Canticle of the Creatures. He was also known for talking to animals, including wolves. He instituted many Christian customs, such as Nativity displays and the Stations of the Cross.

Francis of Assisi - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org